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Profile Joined June 2005
Ivory Coast856 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-12 17:49:19
January 12 2010 16:20 GMT
#281
A build I remember a friend of mine did a few years back but that never caught on... But was quite cool actually~

1hat lurkers with queen support^_^

Ensnare the marines and medics trying to micro their way out of your lurker rush~

EDIT: To clarify, this is a ZvT build^^
Diiiscoo-oh, thats where the happy people go!
julealgon
Profile Joined December 2008
Brazil120 Posts
January 13 2010 20:24 GMT
#282
Hi there.

I've watched a lot of those replays and they were awesome!
I would like to propose a strategy for you to try in TvP. (I saw your 2-port wraith m&m vP and the ghost lockdown one btw).
I will list general things I would love to see assuming you could employ them much better than I would be able to.

------------------------

Extended Bio TvP:
+ Show Spoiler +

- Open up UpMagic style, barracks then ebay and academy as fast as possible, going +1 armor and marine range + bunker to block initial dragoon/zealot attacks, expanding before factory this way.

- Alternatively to upgrading range to defend, get flare first and use it from 2 barrack's medics on as many initial goons as possible (preferably at all of them). I think this is possible (timing wise) but I'm not 100% sure. The academy needs to start as soon as the barracks finish.
(I would personally like seeing this opening as it's much cooler XD).

- Make just one factory and all tanks just from this one. Have a max of 3 tanks with your m&m at all times, no more than that, defending them with defense matrix when needed, and focus instead on teching quickly to ghosts and lockdown to stop important targets, like shuttles/reavers, carriers, arbiters, and if none of those are present, use it on goons. When teching, make sure to have two ebays constantly upgrading (time the second one to finish as soon as the science facility finishes), and prioritize armor if a choice has to be made.

- Do not research EMP and use all the vessels' energy to dmatrix targets being attacked during battle. Protecting tanks and ghosts is a must here, and targeting the ones being focus fired on is preferable.
Get all dropships and vessels from a single starport also (meaning there wont be many of them most of the time, yes).

- As soon as you have 3 tanks with your army, starting making only vultures (only making tanks to replenish the dead ones). Upgrade only mines for the vultures and use them (mines) as a scouting tool for preemptively countering drops and recalls.
Do not use them offensively at all (this hurts m&m quite a lot anyways).

- Use bunkers extensively to counter templar abuse during attacks and inside bases, and make various firebats with the marines to counter mass zealots near the tanks and to take out shields faster (maybe you realized yourself how effective they were in that wraith game). This is very important to counter what happened in some of your attacks in the wraith m&m replay for example.
When attacking, order some nearby SCVs to build 1-2 bunkers and a turret to stabilish a position, sieging the tanks alongside and holding a ghost or 2 in that position.
Position the tanks in a way that they are always somewhat protected by firebats either from a bunker or on the ground. Bring the SCVs in the medics group maybe?

- Drop m&m with a SCV and a pre-cloaked ghost on expansions (this could be done on more than 1 base simultaneously, although it would require quite a bit of micro). Use the scv as soon as it lands to build a bunker on a difficult to reach location, stim, and nuke the entrance of the base to stall units coming to defend as soon as you suspect them. Most likely, the opponent will not suspect the location of the nuke and you will end up killing everything and the expansion itself. (you could try the firebat drop here and blend the two projects). When doing this, scan and flare any nearby observers.
Alternatively, use a vessel alongside 2 dropships and bring a tank, more ghosts for lockdown and maybe 1 more scv for a fast turret with the bunker, or 2 tanks, building a small but mixed and efficient task force.
Use this same approach to instantly block an important but unpopulated choke point on the map.

- Mid to late game, whenever only medics are left (happens a lot after a lost battle), and there is no way to save them, waste all their energy flaring every unit near them, or when you see an open opportunity use the flare ability (like on nearby observers/shuttles/arbs, since making them unusable is better than actually killing them because of the supply cap).


-------------------------

This is what I would personally love to see as a dream strategy, and should make a very cool game both to watch and play, even if some aspects are missing. It is somewhat of a mix of some already played strategies and some new approaches, and I'm sure you could make it work from what I saw you playing.

Any comments and suggestions from anyone will be very appreciated.

Kudos for granting us this incredible chance of seeing unused strategies being employed by a good player!

Juliano
Here is hoping God implements save/load in the next version of life
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4836 Posts
January 13 2010 20:34 GMT
#283
On January 13 2010 01:06 GuYuTe- wrote:
ZvP 2 hatch hydra. Pressure with fast hydras. upgrade both hatcheries to lair and research both drop upgrades for super fast hydra drop in main.

When doing this build it's really important to deny scouting, and I actually prefer to do 2 hatch in base.

Can you afford the gas for all those upgrades without taking both geysers?
My strategy is to fork people.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42486 Posts
January 13 2010 20:47 GMT
#284
On January 12 2010 03:53 wut_wut3 wrote:
zvz hidden 4-5pool

4-5pool but make 1-2 drones afterwards
@100%pool 6lings hide in somewhere in the map
build drones and make your build look like a 9pool
make 4 lings and wait for him to move out with his lings which he will probably do because you only have 4
make a sunken
use 1st 6lings to attack his drones or pool
tech to lair and make your 2nd hatch

To make your build look like 9 pool you'd need as many drones as a 9 pool has. That means you'd have the same number of larva left to spend on zerglings as a 9 pool does. Going 5 pool doesn't give you any extra larva to spend. You're not getting more zerglings than you would otherwise. You're just getting them earlier.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4836 Posts
January 13 2010 20:56 GMT
#285
On January 14 2010 05:47 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2010 03:53 wut_wut3 wrote:
zvz hidden 4-5pool

4-5pool but make 1-2 drones afterwards
@100%pool 6lings hide in somewhere in the map
build drones and make your build look like a 9pool
make 4 lings and wait for him to move out with his lings which he will probably do because you only have 4
make a sunken
use 1st 6lings to attack his drones or pool
tech to lair and make your 2nd hatch

To make your build look like 9 pool you'd need as many drones as a 9 pool has. That means you'd have the same number of larva left to spend on zerglings as a 9 pool does. Going 5 pool doesn't give you any extra larva to spend. You're not getting more zerglings than you would otherwise. You're just getting them earlier.

Doesn't 5pool give you fewer larva than 9pool? I was under the impression it burned some.

Anyway, you can do this sort of hide-the-lings backstab trick with a 9pool or overpool; I believe Calm did during his MSL run.
My strategy is to fork people.
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1240 Posts
January 13 2010 22:59 GMT
#286
Hey Random_Korean I didn't realise you had the alias (P)Brave! And that you were going to try these projects in proleague!?

Project 7:

Spoiler if you haven't watched Khan vs Ace, be warned:
+ Show Spoiler +
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Letters_and_Numbers
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada28 Posts
January 14 2010 02:41 GMT
#287
I've always wanted to see my two favorite Protoss units, reavers and scouts, used en masse. Because of tanks' range, it's probably better against zerg. It would basically be several reavers and probes building pylons, shield batteries, and maybe cannons along the way to the opponent's base. Some scouts should always be present to take care of other air units.

Maybe start with forge fast expand, getting only cannons for defense (pretty much turtling) until you have a few reavers and a couple scouts. Hopefully, shield batteries along with some of the strongest attacks in the game will keep unit losses to a minimum.
lIlIlIlIlIlI
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Korea (South)3851 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-14 05:07:40
January 14 2010 02:47 GMT
#288
--- Nuked ---
lIlIlIlIlIlI
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Korea (South)3851 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-14 06:06:36
January 14 2010 05:54 GMT
#289
--- Nuked ---
GuYuTe-
Profile Joined February 2005
United States550 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-14 09:14:26
January 14 2010 09:10 GMT
#290
On January 14 2010 05:34 Severedevil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2010 01:06 GuYuTe- wrote:
ZvP 2 hatch hydra. Pressure with fast hydras. upgrade both hatcheries to lair and research both drop upgrades for super fast hydra drop in main.

When doing this build it's really important to deny scouting, and I actually prefer to do 2 hatch in base.

Can you afford the gas for all those upgrades without taking both geysers?



Now that you mention it you're probably right, it would prob be better to just expo and do this. I just remember doing it as a super cheese when I played mainly 2v2s. I remember it always working best if you could drone whore as much as possible off 2 hatch in base first, with an early gas. You upgrade one lair and when it's like halfway done you upgrade other hatch to lair and in the first lair you get drop grades and second you get speed and I had it timed to where they finish at almost identical times, and if you can have like 9 dras pressuring/nipping at FE and then all of a sudden you're dropping in their main. I'm sure a good FE toss would crush it, but hey, it's fun

The no 9th probe is a strong rush strat though. I actually stole that from some old school Tillerman build order, and to my astonishment it's significantly faster and puts more pressure than a 10/12 gate...or even 9/11 gate. Try it on a 2 player map against Z some time. The z will shit his pants when you have 3 lots on his nat RIGHT when or even before his hatch pops. It's a really good Bloodbath build too And if you're feeling totally balls-to-the-wallish you can pull all but 4 probes for a game ending rush against a zerg who doesn't have excellent micro.
iMarshall
Profile Joined July 2008
Norway190 Posts
January 14 2010 09:35 GMT
#291
On December 24 2009 02:26 randomKo_Orean wrote:
Project 23: TvP
Show nested quote +
TvP 2base firebat drop on mineral line.

+ Show Spoiler +
First Impression: Wait what? Firebat drop? Really?

Results pending


I didn't read through all the posts to see if someone commented this already, but what I've tried a couple of times at D/D+ level is bringing a fast dropship with 6 firebats and 2 medics, and sometimes even 2 dropships if he has expanded (one for each nexus). The nexus' shields just melt to the firebats, and it doesn't take too long to bring it down afterward either. With a little luck and good execution you should be able to bring down (both) his nexuses in a matter of seconds, and then you can go for the probes who also die SO quickly, btw. Please try!

P.S. Stim is very important.
old times sake
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
165 Posts
January 14 2010 12:17 GMT
#292
On January 14 2010 18:35 iMarshall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2009 02:26 randomKo_Orean wrote:
Project 23: TvP
TvP 2base firebat drop on mineral line.

+ Show Spoiler +
First Impression: Wait what? Firebat drop? Really?

Results pending


I didn't read through all the posts to see if someone commented this already, but what I've tried a couple of times at D/D+ level is bringing a fast dropship with 6 firebats and 2 medics, and sometimes even 2 dropships if he has expanded (one for each nexus). The nexus' shields just melt to the firebats, and it doesn't take too long to bring it down afterward either. With a little luck and good execution you should be able to bring down (both) his nexuses in a matter of seconds, and then you can go for the probes who also die SO quickly, btw. Please try!

P.S. Stim is very important.

i did a race to see which mix of bats/marines (out of 6 units) was fastest:

1st place: 2 marines 4 bats (2nd test this got 2nd place)
2nd place: 1 marine 5 bats
3rd place: 3 marines 3 bats (2nd test this got 1st place)

note that all three of the above happened almost simultaneously, so really they are all about equal and it just depends on whether you want bats or marines in their base.

4th place: 6 bats
5th place: 4 marines 2 bats (still pretty close to 6 bats speed, less than 20 hp difference on the nexus)
*note that 5 bats + 1 scv or 4 bats + 2 scvs also is damn near the same as these, insignificantly behind

6th place: 5 marines 1 bat (3 more volleys behind 5th)
7th place: 6 marines (2 more volleys behind 6th)

So IMO you can just do 4 marines 2 bats if that's easier for you, or 3 marines 3 bats.

This is assuming you want to always have 2 medics in the dropship anyways.

Bottom line you don't need to do 6 bats.
Lol it's so funny watching the level of posting deteriorate so rapidly when supporters of this decision are confronted with such nefarious things as REASONS. --fanatacist
lIlIlIlIlIlI
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Korea (South)3851 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-15 10:11:42
January 15 2010 09:48 GMT
#293
--- Nuked ---
lIlIlIlIlIlI
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Korea (South)3851 Posts
January 15 2010 19:42 GMT
#294
--- Nuked ---
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
January 15 2010 22:29 GMT
#295
I seriously love this thread Keep it up!
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
airtown
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States410 Posts
January 17 2010 02:27 GMT
#296
ZvT:

10 hatch speedling rush
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
GeMicles
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada307 Posts
January 17 2010 18:54 GMT
#297
ZvP or ZvZ - go the 2 pool build where you send three of your first 4 drones to harass and mine with the last drone while also building another. with good enough drone micro, this can counter the forge FE build and any zerg pool rush build that they might be doing (especially the 4-pool)
PvP - the uber manner pylon - manner pylon the shit out of the toss main base and harass then with your first zealots. and by manner pylonig the shit out of their base, i mean investing about 2000 minerals worth of pylons in the mineral line of your opponent. pisses them off and this can stop them from mining for a while.

And here is a strategy my korean friend used against me:
he researched burrow before ling speed for a ZvP and send his first 12 lings into my base. after my zealots (i didn't for Forge FE because i was trying to stove him) started chasing the lings, he split them into 2 groups and burrowed 1 while the other group kept having surprise buttsecks with my probe line. after i had my zealots change target to the lings completely raping my mineral lines, he burrowed those and unburrowed the other group of lings, which had a gangbang around my pylon powering both my gate and my core. he continued to do this under a shitload of lurkers came into my base where i only had an unpowered forge, gate, and a cyber core.
These are just a few crazy strategies i've tried and have had people use against me.
i pikachu in the shower
yoden
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States64 Posts
January 17 2010 20:48 GMT
#298
On January 18 2010 03:54 GeMicles wrote:
And here is a strategy my korean friend used against me:
he researched burrow before ling speed for a ZvP and send his first 12 lings into my base. after my zealots (i didn't for Forge FE because i was trying to stove him) started chasing the lings, he split them into 2 groups and burrowed 1 while the other group kept having surprise buttsecks with my probe line. after i had my zealots change target to the lings completely raping my mineral lines, he burrowed those and unburrowed the other group of lings, which had a gangbang around my pylon powering both my gate and my core. he continued to do this under a shitload of lurkers came into my base where i only had an unpowered forge, gate, and a cyber core.
These are just a few crazy strategies i've tried and have had people use against me.


There's a VOD of someone (Boxer offracing?) doing this on LT... but I can't find it.
Deviation
Profile Joined November 2009
United States134 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-17 20:58:31
January 17 2010 20:56 GMT
#299
ZvT Mutalisk + Ensnare

Go for a Mutalisk intensive build as we sometimes see in pro-games where the Zerg pretty much goes all-in Mutalisks. The difference is that you're going to sacrifice a couple of Mutalisks to get a Queen + Ensnare. Now focus on picking off the Terrans M&M ball with Mutalisks + Ensnare. Put any excess minerals into lings to aid your Muta+Queen combo. If you take the advantage and force the Terran to abandon his natural go for an Infested CC before he can float it to safety.

I see this as being played extremely aggressively but not necessarily all-in (unless you want to).
Jlab
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States217 Posts
January 17 2010 22:16 GMT
#300
Actually 4 or 5 firebats can tear apart an opponents miners.
HOWEVER - This is more of a tactic and not a strategy.
Just a little something to help advantage, but not to base a game around..
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