On November 29 2009 15:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: That's retarded, you don't have to issue even close to 200 commands a minute for one unit. Perfect means no wasted clicks too, you know.
Suppose microing a muta takes 1 action per second. Microing a group of 12 mutas (because there do exist situations where, if you had the APM to micro them individually, it would be advantageous to do so) would already take 720 APM, not including macro.
It's easy to theorycraft, but I still think it will be interesting to see what happens when we pit 2 "perfect" starcraft AI players against each other. I wonder if we really will see a race imbalance. And if we do, its a weird situation where human error actually balances the game, instead of screws things up.
I think what everyone's failing to consider is that if we pitted two AIs with enough APM for perfect micro and/or decision-making, we would see them cheesing a lot of the time. Some units are just flat out faster and more maneuverable than others in the early game, and with perfect micro you'd just see optimized cheese builds.
On November 29 2009 17:03 d3_crescentia wrote: I think what everyone's failing to consider is that if we pitted two AIs with enough APM for perfect micro and/or decision-making, we would see them cheesing a lot of the time. Some units are just flat out faster and more maneuverable than others in the early game, and with perfect micro you'd just see optimized cheese builds.
True but wouldn't you also see perfect cheese defense as well?
Actually, I think T>Z>P>T balance would stay the same with perfect play.
T>Z bio would be ridiculous. It seems like theoretically, a perfectly microed MnM group > an equivalent mutalisk group, ditto with lurkers. Also, keeping science vessels alive.
Z>P is obvious. Imagine what perfectly controlled Dark Archons can do to the Zerg.
P>T, all I can say is perfect stasis (no cast travel time so you can't dodge it like EMP) and damn near impossible for T to catch an arbiter (or really anything important) with an EMP.
On November 29 2009 17:56 Hinanawi wrote: Actually, I think T>Z>P>T balance would stay the same with perfect play.
T>Z bio would be ridiculous. It seems like theoretically, a perfectly microed MnM group > an equivalent mutalisk group, ditto with lurkers. Also, keeping science vessels alive.
Z>P is obvious. Imagine what perfectly controlled Dark Archons can do to the Zerg.
P>T, all I can say is perfect stasis (no cast travel time so you can't dodge it like EMP) and damn near impossible for T to catch an arbiter (or really anything important) with an EMP.
I don't think it's safe to assume that we'd see the same unit compositions or build orders. Granted I can imagine a perfectly microed group of MnM tearing up an lurkers, but I think my point stands. What if some hydraling build with a perfect flank and micro defeats perfectly microed MnM. It's possible that both mutas and lurks (not necessarily probable) could be phased out of the game play entirely until hive tech.
There is a very easy way to check that. Ask a friend to play against you and make a game in slowest. Then do everything which is necessary, and don't spam. You have time to do everything you want if you hotkey a lot. Yes, even microing units individually (not with a maxed army, ok, ok, ok...but at least in early game and early mid-game)
Then check your apm with bwcharts. You can probably get around 1000 quite easily.
Macroing absolutely perefctly doesn't recquire very very high eapm. If you have already played in a team melee, you know that a player taking care of macro by himself can keep minerals below 300 for a whole game easily.
People don't believe that what is hard is multitasking and not playing very fast. I think looking at how many time a player changes screen a minute would be a more reliable skill information than eapm. That, you can see by watching Bisu Flash and Jaedong in FPVOD.
Protoss will win %100 basically because of perfect probe rush, maybe z could have a chance with 4 pool, (and maybe you can micro your probes perfectly against lings lol) so protoss ez with infinite apm
Just because that one Muta AI does use 35k APM doesnt mean that's necessary, or even close to what's necessary. I don't know the exact attack rate of mutas, but it should be around 1 hit per second on fastest. For each hit you need like 2 Move, 1 Hold command, that's 3 commands per second, or 180 APM. Times 12 that's 2120 APM. If you count selects as additional commands you get 4320 APM. That AI just spams a lot because it can't predict anything.
Look at that APM. if someone had 35k+ apm he will win every league because hes so imba. and ofcourse that kind of muta micro and multitasking. its just sick
On November 27 2009 19:46 Velr wrote: I think Zerg would get it.
Hydras would be able to pretty much rape M&M once they got a certain mass (have various little Groups of Hydras instakill Marines), it would be like there are no Medics...
?
A "little" group consists of at least 6 hydras, if not 8. On the same area, terran can fit like 10 marines, which have higher attack rate (stim) and can focus just as well. It's not that simple.
No it isn't that simple (obviously), but: Whiteout Medics, Marines lose to Hydras (hard). With perfect targeting the Medics become a non factor. Hydra would win hard again?
Btw: You could completly forget Reavers, because everyone would be able to block the scarab with his own units :p.
scarab would hit faster than unit would, so even if u perfectly execute, most of the time scarab will hit the target ;]
On November 29 2009 15:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: That's retarded, you don't have to issue even close to 200 commands a minute for one unit. Perfect means no wasted clicks too, you know.
Suppose microing a muta takes 1 action per second. Microing a group of 12 mutas (because there do exist situations where, if you had the APM to micro them individually, it would be advantageous to do so) would already take 720 APM, not including macro.
try doing that vs mnm lol. Stacked muta micro is better than solo muta micro in most of the cases.
EPT
