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Just a thought/idea that I've been pondering...
How much APM is required to play a game of a near perfect game of starcraft? By perfect I mean absolutely flawless macro and near perfect micro.
-Assuming the player reacts perfectly to scouting information, and where unavailable, uses the build order that has statistically the greatest win rate playing blind.
-Assuming eAPM = APM, wastage = zero
-Assuming matchup is ZVT, where T goes bio.
Early game building drones/hatch/pool - 40 APM.
Fending off SCV harass/micro'ing lings/lair tech -100 APM.
Constant scouting/ling backstab threat/sunken/macro leading up to mutas - 200 APM.
One group of muta micro/base management - 400 APM.
Two groups of simultaneous muta micro/base management/lurker tech - 600 APM.
Running 3rd/delaying T push with lurkling/hive teching/constant muta harass 1000 APM.
Late game ZVT / too many things to describe - 2000+ APM.
These are just my estimates, and it's relevant and not totally useless because it defines what the upper limit of perfect starcraft play versus what is humanly possible. I'm thinking right now, the best Z players pretty much has near perfect play up until the muta harass stage, where after that no matter how good you think jaedong/calm/effort are, they still mismicros / get supply blocked / have idle larva occasionally.
So we are limited by human dexterity / reaction time, but if somehow everyone manages to play at 3000 APM then how would the different matchups play out? Would it still be statistically Z>P>T>Z?
Also there is the key stroke response limit, i.e., sc not responding when you smash 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh too fast and your clicks don't register, so I don't know how that will affect the end results.
Thoughts?
edit: realized the title should probably be [I] instead of [Q], and maybe I should have blogged this too. Oh well.
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Sweden16951 Posts
I would so love to see Data from Star Trek TNG play SC.
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At first I thought zergs would be > than all, but muta harass would be so uneffective as the Terran will have m and m unstoppable control That means the gamer will also be able to dodge lurkers. Imagine each marine, firebat, medic being controlled individually, how the fcck do you win? The game will be over in the first big push.
I thought Zergs will destory protoss as mutas will be easily microed vs. archons and each individual unit of zerg's huge army will be individually microed. But then again, lurkers will alot less useful. Also protoss have the most powerful spells. Such high APM means ultimate control and 100% effective use of spells. Malestorms, mindcontrols, storms, with reaver shuttle micro... Id say zergs may have a slight advantage just due to all the units they can micro at once.
I have a hard time deciding how would have the advantage between T and P. If T wend biomech, I cannot see P winning. Stim=storm dodging, scarab and dt outmicroed.
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this is why jaedong is a monster. 2000 apm ftw.
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lol at lategame if u're gonna control every units you would need atleast 50 000 apm.
No, i didn't calculate on that
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apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
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On November 27 2009 08:56 foppa wrote:
apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
Watch late game pro games. It is not even near PERFECT micro and macro. Even the best will have around like 800 min in their bank at peak periods of long games. Its like a street fight, you could have the best technique and strategy, but if your opponent is the hulk who only knows how to tackle people, you are still fucked.
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a perfect player probably wouldnt even let his marine get shot by lurker spines, he'd dodge them every time.
Marines imba
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Terran or Zerg would be the strongest.
Too easy to abuse protoss if you have infinite apm ( dodge storm, hit and run vs zeal, dodge archon, dodge scarab etc .... )
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the progamers already discused this and came to the conclusion that zerg would be the strongest with perfect play
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Assuming the player reacts perfectly to scouting information, and where unavailable, uses the build order that has statistically the greatest win rate playing blind.
You see, if a human player would get to this stage, he would do something unexpected and win.
That's why Idra loses to players who are inferior mechanically, but execute "bad strategies".
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And thats why, even if it is very subtle in an environment where pros have insane mechanics and multitasking, strategy still remains a very important criteria in the game of Starcraft.
Intuition is something no conceivable AI can (yet) mimic.
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On November 27 2009 08:56 foppa wrote:
apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
Pay closer attention to the resource counter in the bottom right when it's there, or just watch some leaked reps. People like Bisu and Flash may have pretty close to perfect macro some times, but you are overestimating alot of progamers.
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zerg has more units to control -> more apm to expend
constant groups of hydra harassing always or zerglings on toss
perfect scourge ai and defiler control late game vs terran
imo late game zerg has the advantage
and early -> midgame would be kinda even with apm usage capped about the same
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On November 27 2009 09:04 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 08:56 foppa wrote:
apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything. Watch late game pro games. It is not even near PERFECT micro and macro. Even the best will have around like 800 min in their bank at peak periods of long games.
around 800 min is one round of macro if it's the mid/late game... meaning that is near perfect macro already.
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On November 27 2009 09:22 HeavOnEarth wrote:
zerg has more units to control -> more apm to expend
constant groups of hydra harassing always or zerglings on toss
perfect scourge ai and defiler control late game vs terran
imo late game zerg has the advantage
and early -> midgame would be kinda even with apm usage capped about the same
I think TvZ would be impossible to stop terran in the midgame given perfect micro against lurkers.
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On November 27 2009 09:10 fearus wrote:
the progamers already discused this and came to the conclusion that zerg would be the strongest with perfect play
agree with this guy.
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On November 27 2009 09:24 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 09:22 HeavOnEarth wrote:
zerg has more units to control -> more apm to expend
constant groups of hydra harassing always or zerglings on toss
perfect scourge ai and defiler control late game vs terran
imo late game zerg has the advantage
and early -> midgame would be kinda even with apm usage capped about the same
I think TvZ would be impossible to stop terran in the midgame given perfect micro against lurkers.
couldn't lurkers also all be controlled individually and hit stop/released every .1 seconds of an interval for each lurker, thus creating no possible way a marine could micro it unless all marines moved at that .1 interval as well , but they would cramped up and hm. can we go above 2000+ apm?
on another note this thread is the work of thanksgiving turkey dinner and lazy americans ;o
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I actually agree with the guy who said 50k apm woult be necessary. It's like imagining every unit being controlled by a single person.
As for which race would be strongest. I really assume terran bio here, for the reasons already mentioned. Ghosts would be killer too, locking down every single high treat target against protoss and using nukes constantly while medics use flare on nearby observers.
Versus zerg, it would still be though, considering how deadly plague/muta would be (instant kill on a lot of units). In that situation, it would be interesting to have dozens of medics casting restorarion, since they will be a lot less occupied healing marines (they would just dodge most enemy fire) and vessels EMPing the defilers and irradianting queens (broodling suddenly gets good). Also, in great numbers, marines destroy everything with perfect micro, due to them having insane dps and being ranged (meaning most of the time all of them are attacking). Still, the biggest treat here are the mutas... I can't come up with a solution to muta harass. Maybe mass blind would be useful in such a situation.
If you think about it also, protoss would be very crazy to fight agains as T. Storms can be dodged, as do scarabs, but maelstrom cannot. If there are tanks, the toss could cast a single disruption web over every single one, and if the corsairs are spread there wouldn't be enough vessels to EMP everything, nor would there be enough ghosts to lockdown. It also starts to get interesting to mind control a vessel and EMP all the medics/ghosts/other vessels in the terran army.
For some reason, I just love this discussion. I have it all the time with a friend of mine xD
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EPT
