On November 27 2009 09:08 Boblion wrote: Terran or Zerg would be the strongest.
Too easy to abuse protoss if you have infinite apm ( dodge storm, hit and run vs zeal, dodge archon, dodge scarab etc .... )
If protoss has infinite apm too, then you come to the paradox stage: - you can perfectly dodge storms - he can perfectly place storms so that you can't dodge them
On November 27 2009 09:08 Boblion wrote: Terran or Zerg would be the strongest.
Too easy to abuse protoss if you have infinite apm ( dodge storm, hit and run vs zeal, dodge archon, dodge scarab etc .... )
If protoss has infinite apm too, then you come to the paradox stage: - you can perfectly dodge storms - he can perfectly place storms so that you can't dodge them
How do you solve that?
perfectly dodging storms is impossible. that would imply that you can perfectly predict where the storms will be placed. apm is control, not omniscience.
On November 27 2009 09:08 Boblion wrote: Terran or Zerg would be the strongest.
Too easy to abuse protoss if you have infinite apm ( dodge storm, hit and run vs zeal, dodge archon, dodge scarab etc .... )
If protoss has infinite apm too, then you come to the paradox stage: - you can perfectly dodge storms - he can perfectly place storms so that you can't dodge them
How do you solve that?
perfectly dodging storms is impossible. that would imply that you can perfectly predict where the storms will be placed. apm is control, not omniscience.
Agreed. The only way to land storms would be to cast more than one on the possible routes the units would flee to, same as with EMP.
This discussion is exciting, but I can say only one thing.
Terran mech would be non-existent, since in the presence of siege tanks, the opponent army will have every single one of its troops separated enough as to receive 0 splash damage, making tanks cost effective against nothing.
Though I'm tempted to say Z would rule the earth, I think T's bio would be so insanely strong. So much damage per second in such a small area(rines are as small as lings, but have range). "Perfect" darkswarms would be useless since rines would instantly move as the swarm is being cast, being completely ineffective.
On November 28 2009 00:55 win8282 wrote: This discussion is exciting, but I can say only one thing.
Terran mech would be non-existent, since in the presence of siege tanks, the opponent army will have every single one of its troops separated enough as to receive 0 splash damage, making tanks cost effective against nothing.
Though I'm tempted to say Z would rule the earth, I think T's bio would be so insanely strong. So much damage per second in such a small area(rines are as small as lings, but have range). "Perfect" darkswarms would be useless since rines would instantly move as the swarm is being cast, being completely ineffective.
Eh? To receive 0 splash damage you can't have more than 1 or 2 hydras attacking a unit at a given time, how is that effective?
Swarms aren't fought with reflexes you know? A perfect swarm is the one that is so deep in the enemy's army or mineral lines that even dodging it causes massive damage.
On November 28 2009 00:55 win8282 wrote: This discussion is exciting, but I can say only one thing.
Terran mech would be non-existent, since in the presence of siege tanks, the opponent army will have every single one of its troops separated enough as to receive 0 splash damage, making tanks cost effective against nothing.
Though I'm tempted to say Z would rule the earth, I think T's bio would be so insanely strong. So much damage per second in such a small area(rines are as small as lings, but have range). "Perfect" darkswarms would be useless since rines would instantly move as the swarm is being cast, being completely ineffective.
Not true, where would you get the room to seperate all of your troops without being forced to send in your army small group by group? Even if you do catch tanks out in the open... as your units get closer to the surround, they will get closeer themselves. So unless you wanna send in army piecemeal, youu are gonna have to take splash.
I think a lot more apm could be spent in the early game... I think you could easily reach reidiculous amounts of apm before even completing your first production building... perfect SCV petting anyone? o,O Then imagine that perfect SCV petting the ENTIRE game. o,O
That would be fun to code... an AI algorithm to manage your workers perfectly while they mine.
Heck, it might even be effective to not keep the same three/four workers on a geyeser, switching in ones that are mining mineral patches close to it on occasion....
On November 27 2009 09:04 lone_hydra wrote: Its like a street fight, you could have the best technique and strategy, but if your opponent is the hulk who only knows how to tackle people, you are still fucked.
Asking this question is like saying the strongest sword vs the strongest shield. Perfect muta micro vs perfect muta defense. Perfect storms vs perfect storm dodging.
I don't get it, where do your numbers come from? Why think that perfect play requires so much higher than the best human's apm?
If you think about it, the reason the best of the best average 400 apm is partly because of how much they spam in a sense. This is not to say that if they spammed less, they would play better. The pros do what they do for a reason. But I think theoretically, if actions are not spammed unless absolutely needed, an APM simular to JaeDong's should be enough to do just about anything in starcraft that you would ever need to do. 400 apm = over 6 actions a second. So potentially, you could split those actions up in different parts of the map. I don't think you need more than 400 to theoretically play "perfect starcraft".
Well a guy made the AI micro 12 mutas at once and it still wasn't perfect as even though they killed like 5 or 7 archons without a single muta dieing some still got hit and the archons only attack moved. The APM for the AI was listed as 35k, just for 12 units. Pretty sure 400 doesn't cut it.
On November 28 2009 03:14 WSA wrote: I don't get it, where do your numbers come from? Why think that perfect play requires so much higher than the best human's apm?
If you think about it, the reason the best of the best average 400 apm is partly because of how much they spam in a sense. This is not to say that if they spammed less, they would play better. The pros do what they do for a reason. But I think theoretically, if actions are not spammed unless absolutely needed, an APM simular to JaeDong's should be enough to do just about anything in starcraft that you would ever need to do. 400 apm = over 6 actions a second. So potentially, you could split those actions up in different parts of the map. I don't think you need more than 400 to theoretically play "perfect starcraft".
I lol'd............. no, just no.
What do you consider 'perfect play'? 400 apm would be enough to control 1 or 2 units, no more than that.
On November 28 2009 03:14 WSA wrote: I don't get it, where do your numbers come from? Why think that perfect play requires so much higher than the best human's apm?
If you think about it, the reason the best of the best average 400 apm is partly because of how much they spam in a sense. This is not to say that if they spammed less, they would play better. The pros do what they do for a reason. But I think theoretically, if actions are not spammed unless absolutely needed, an APM simular to JaeDong's should be enough to do just about anything in starcraft that you would ever need to do. 400 apm = over 6 actions a second. So potentially, you could split those actions up in different parts of the map. I don't think you need more than 400 to theoretically play "perfect starcraft".
I lol'd............. no, just no.
What do you consider 'perfect play'? 400 apm would be enough to control 1 or 2 units, no more than that.
That's retarded, you don't have to issue even close to 200 commands a minute for one unit. Perfect means no wasted clicks too, you know.
we have to assume the AI is also extremely intelligent and fast. Like the ability to calculate the perfect distance to cast dark swarm given the proximity of science vessels, or siege tank placement based on predictions of the incoming enemy. APM doesn't matter as much.
On November 27 2009 19:46 Velr wrote: I think Zerg would get it.
Hydras would be able to pretty much rape M&M once they got a certain mass (have various little Groups of Hydras instakill Marines), it would be like there are no Medics...
?
A "little" group consists of at least 6 hydras, if not 8. On the same area, terran can fit like 10 marines, which have higher attack rate (stim) and can focus just as well. It's not that simple.
No it isn't that simple (obviously), but: Whiteout Medics, Marines lose to Hydras (hard). With perfect targeting the Medics become a non factor. Hydra would win hard again?
Btw: You could completly forget Reavers, because everyone would be able to block the scarab with his own units :p.
that's assuming the computer knows what the other computer is targeting. If the reaver was targeting another unit, the block would not work.
and starcraft probably won't respond to commands that are above a certain apm since it requires a certain amount of delay for the threads of the game, although this probably won't be a factor.
EPT
