How much APM is required to play a game of a near perfect game of starcraft? By perfect I mean absolutely flawless macro and near perfect micro.
-Assuming the player reacts perfectly to scouting information, and where unavailable, uses the build order that has statistically the greatest win rate playing blind.
-Assuming eAPM = APM, wastage = zero
-Assuming matchup is ZVT, where T goes bio.
Early game building drones/hatch/pool - 40 APM.
Fending off SCV harass/micro'ing lings/lair tech -100 APM.
Constant scouting/ling backstab threat/sunken/macro leading up to mutas - 200 APM.
One group of muta micro/base management - 400 APM.
Two groups of simultaneous muta micro/base management/lurker tech - 600 APM.
Running 3rd/delaying T push with lurkling/hive teching/constant muta harass 1000 APM.
Late game ZVT / too many things to describe - 2000+ APM.
These are just my estimates, and it's relevant and not totally useless because it defines what the upper limit of perfect starcraft play versus what is humanly possible. I'm thinking right now, the best Z players pretty much has near perfect play up until the muta harass stage, where after that no matter how good you think jaedong/calm/effort are, they still mismicros / get supply blocked / have idle larva occasionally.
So we are limited by human dexterity / reaction time, but if somehow everyone manages to play at 3000 APM then how would the different matchups play out? Would it still be statistically Z>P>T>Z?
Also there is the key stroke response limit, i.e., sc not responding when you smash 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh too fast and your clicks don't register, so I don't know how that will affect the end results.
Thoughts?
edit: realized the title should probably be [I] instead of [Q], and maybe I should have blogged this too. Oh well.
At first I thought zergs would be > than all, but muta harass would be so uneffective as the Terran will have m and m unstoppable control That means the gamer will also be able to dodge lurkers. Imagine each marine, firebat, medic being controlled individually, how the fcck do you win? The game will be over in the first big push.
I thought Zergs will destory protoss as mutas will be easily microed vs. archons and each individual unit of zerg's huge army will be individually microed. But then again, lurkers will alot less useful. Also protoss have the most powerful spells. Such high APM means ultimate control and 100% effective use of spells. Malestorms, mindcontrols, storms, with reaver shuttle micro... Id say zergs may have a slight advantage just due to all the units they can micro at once.
I have a hard time deciding how would have the advantage between T and P. If T wend biomech, I cannot see P winning. Stim=storm dodging, scarab and dt outmicroed.
apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
On November 27 2009 08:56 foppa wrote: apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
Watch late game pro games. It is not even near PERFECT micro and macro. Even the best will have around like 800 min in their bank at peak periods of long games. Its like a street fight, you could have the best technique and strategy, but if your opponent is the hulk who only knows how to tackle people, you are still fucked.
Assuming the player reacts perfectly to scouting information, and where unavailable, uses the build order that has statistically the greatest win rate playing blind.
You see, if a human player would get to this stage, he would do something unexpected and win. That's why Idra loses to players who are inferior mechanically, but execute "bad strategies".
And thats why, even if it is very subtle in an environment where pros have insane mechanics and multitasking, strategy still remains a very important criteria in the game of Starcraft.
Intuition is something no conceivable AI can (yet) mimic.
On November 27 2009 08:56 foppa wrote: apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
Pay closer attention to the resource counter in the bottom right when it's there, or just watch some leaked reps. People like Bisu and Flash may have pretty close to perfect macro some times, but you are overestimating alot of progamers.
zerg has more units to control -> more apm to expend constant groups of hydra harassing always or zerglings on toss perfect scourge ai and defiler control late game vs terran imo late game zerg has the advantage and early -> midgame would be kinda even with apm usage capped about the same
On November 27 2009 08:56 foppa wrote: apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
Watch late game pro games. It is not even near PERFECT micro and macro. Even the best will have around like 800 min in their bank at peak periods of long games.
around 800 min is one round of macro if it's the mid/late game... meaning that is near perfect macro already.
On November 27 2009 09:22 HeavOnEarth wrote: zerg has more units to control -> more apm to expend constant groups of hydra harassing always or zerglings on toss perfect scourge ai and defiler control late game vs terran imo late game zerg has the advantage and early -> midgame would be kinda even with apm usage capped about the same
I think TvZ would be impossible to stop terran in the midgame given perfect micro against lurkers.
On November 27 2009 09:10 fearus wrote: the progamers already discused this and came to the conclusion that zerg would be the strongest with perfect play
On November 27 2009 09:22 HeavOnEarth wrote: zerg has more units to control -> more apm to expend constant groups of hydra harassing always or zerglings on toss perfect scourge ai and defiler control late game vs terran imo late game zerg has the advantage and early -> midgame would be kinda even with apm usage capped about the same
I think TvZ would be impossible to stop terran in the midgame given perfect micro against lurkers.
couldn't lurkers also all be controlled individually and hit stop/released every .1 seconds of an interval for each lurker, thus creating no possible way a marine could micro it unless all marines moved at that .1 interval as well , but they would cramped up and hm. can we go above 2000+ apm?
on another note this thread is the work of thanksgiving turkey dinner and lazy americans ;o
I actually agree with the guy who said 50k apm woult be necessary. It's like imagining every unit being controlled by a single person.
As for which race would be strongest. I really assume terran bio here, for the reasons already mentioned. Ghosts would be killer too, locking down every single high treat target against protoss and using nukes constantly while medics use flare on nearby observers.
Versus zerg, it would still be though, considering how deadly plague/muta would be (instant kill on a lot of units). In that situation, it would be interesting to have dozens of medics casting restorarion, since they will be a lot less occupied healing marines (they would just dodge most enemy fire) and vessels EMPing the defilers and irradianting queens (broodling suddenly gets good). Also, in great numbers, marines destroy everything with perfect micro, due to them having insane dps and being ranged (meaning most of the time all of them are attacking). Still, the biggest treat here are the mutas... I can't come up with a solution to muta harass. Maybe mass blind would be useful in such a situation.
If you think about it also, protoss would be very crazy to fight agains as T. Storms can be dodged, as do scarabs, but maelstrom cannot. If there are tanks, the toss could cast a single disruption web over every single one, and if the corsairs are spread there wouldn't be enough vessels to EMP everything, nor would there be enough ghosts to lockdown. It also starts to get interesting to mind control a vessel and EMP all the medics/ghosts/other vessels in the terran army.
For some reason, I just love this discussion. I have it all the time with a friend of mine xD
On November 27 2009 10:24 HeavOnEarth wrote: mass dark archon; perfect mc and feedbacks would be fun ;o or the deadly 4 probu rush, all individually controlled D:D:
On November 27 2009 10:24 HeavOnEarth wrote: mass dark archon; perfect mc and feedbacks would be fun ;o or the deadly 4 probu rush, all individually controlled D:D:
1v1(4v4) Team Melee for pro gamers anyone?
that would be epic (assuming perfect coordination though)
Well imagine having like 2 Shuttles dropping reavers at one expansion, another 2 at another one and another one at another one with perfect Micro/Control, Those can be enough to kill all 3 expos at the same time.
That was only 12 mutas... imagine a 200 zergling / 50 lurk/def/muta army... You'll probably need a few million APM to micro / macro perfectly like that playing late game zerg.
Yah okay, zerg would totally rape T and P, it wouldn't even be close.
I've often contemplated this... I had also concluded Zerg would be stronger, though you never know. Since the implications of this are so hard to conceive, who knows what could happen with seemingly limitless ability and multitasking.
IMO, in Mid game TvZ with perfect play - Stimmed firebats would own any amount of zerglings, Marines wouldn't take damage at all from lurkers and Stimmed marines would easily take care of Muta without terrain/cliff advantage. Assuming T goes for the right BO or has scouted correctly.
i think worker rush would just dominate and Terrans would get crushed due to the lack of automatic shield/HP recovery.It would be between Probes and Drones only.
It would be MUCH MUCH more thank 50k. I mean just for almost perfect muta micro you need 35k apm. Then add in all the perfect macro and the rest of the units to micro. Perfect muta micro is only 9-12 units. Also against terran mutas wouldn't work as well but they still would against toss because with perfect micro mutas don't have to be stacked so no matter how good sair/archon/storming is the zerg can always evade it, and they don't suffer from the splash dmg.
Perfect marine micro can be stopped. But only by perfect control from the opponent, in which case its like average micro since both people are equal and they will get hurt and stuff so it negates the perfect kinda..i guess?
On November 27 2009 16:13 zergnewb wrote: Perfect marine micro can be stopped. But only by perfect control from the opponent, in which case its like average micro since both people are equal and they will get hurt and stuff so it negates the perfect kinda..i guess?
Perfect medic micro with the marine will be unstoppable!
On November 27 2009 16:05 MuffinDude wrote: a perfect marine micro is just sick sick sick, u can't stop it
perfect sunkens would stop m&M so easily, they wouldn't be a threat and then comes the mutas with perfect micro = terran would need to spend it all on defending and probably would fail, but i can't say that for sure maybe a perfect terran can defend vs perfect muta, but then take into account that perfect zerg can calculate the optimal number of drones/expansion/defence to defeat the terran i'm pretty sure perfect zerg is the strongest in starcraft :p
On November 27 2009 16:05 MuffinDude wrote: a perfect marine micro is just sick sick sick, u can't stop it
perfect sunkens would stop m&M so easily, they wouldn't be a threat and then comes the mutas with perfect micro = terran would need to spend it all on defending and probably would fail, but i can't say that for sure maybe a perfect terran can defend vs perfect muta, but then take into account that perfect zerg can calculate the optimal number of drones/expansion/defence to defeat the terran i'm pretty sure perfect zerg is the strongest in starcraft :p
how? if u have enough medics, then it should be alright.
On November 27 2009 16:13 zergnewb wrote: Perfect marine micro can be stopped. But only by perfect control from the opponent, in which case its like average micro since both people are equal and they will get hurt and stuff so it negates the perfect kinda..i guess?
Perfect medic micro with the marine will be unstoppable!
Perfect MnM vs perfect Carrier/Arbiter or perfect Carrier/Sair(for d-web). Shall I say more?!
On November 27 2009 10:14 julealgon wrote: It also starts to get interesting to mind control a vessel and EMP all the medics/ghosts/other vessels in the terran army.
For some reason, I just love this discussion. I have it all the time with a friend of mine xD
pshh, with perfect micro on a reasonable map, toss would win every game cause probe rushes would be unstoppable
probes actually have longer attack range than drones or scvs i think, along with better ai movements (acceleration) also i think probes can even attack through minerals at certain angles not to mention you could abuse shield's regen rate so that probes live longer
When you actually stop and consider just how perfect micro could actually be, provided we had a player with infinite APM, it's pretty frightening
For instance, you would be able to target fire with every single unit for perfect efficiency - for example, tanks against zerglings, you could theoretically be able to make sure that each zergling only got hit by one siege blast, reducing wasted tank shots MASSIVELY. There are tons of other things like this that would make it so much fun to try to program the perfect AI for this game, considering how strong it could theoretically be if you could get it to make sound strategic decisions.
Any of those numbers don't take into account the "refresh rate" of the tactical dynamics playing out. If you imagine two players with perfect micro battling, it's not like a perfectly executed battle of the type we normally watch in pro games. It's a completely different battle based on the threats you're able to make by splitting your army (large or small scale) and the positional relevance when you are maintaining defense. As an analogy, say PvZ P 2gate and his 3 zealots are coming to threaten the Z nat on outsider. The Z has 6 lings that are counter threatening the P, and the familiar melee squad dance ensues. There are a lot of mouse clicks for orders being given but no "shots" are being exchanged. Now imagine if each individual unit had the tactical acumen of Master Chief and was also acting in concert with the hive mind of its team. How many feints and false threats and posturing fights are taking place at once on how many levels? The literal APM required to do that, if you were literally going to send mouseclicks and keystrokes... flies through the roof. I would say 50k is a low estimate for late game. For zerg alone, by that point they are approaching 200 cap via overlords, or roughly 25 overlords. Imagine what a hivemind would do with its overlord fleet. You have three "first level" tasks, prevent them from being killed (protect your supply), provide detection where relevant, and help give scouting information. Assuming the opponent is actively working -against- those things, you would be reacting with every single overlord to their play on a continual basis. It might not make or break the game, you might think, but if we're talking about perfect play, I envision a fleet of 25 overlords as a sort of breathing cloud always expanding into places to see more information on the map, always have detection at the ready, sometimes grouping up near a cliff concurrent with your army being near, to threaten a drop... but then pulling back, almost its own pulsing organism. How many "move" orders does that take? 2/second/overlord, conservatively? With 25 overlords that's 3k apm already, just for them, as the overhead cost without anything actively happening.
On November 27 2009 16:05 MuffinDude wrote: a perfect marine micro is just sick sick sick, u can't stop it
perfect sunkens would stop m&M so easily, they wouldn't be a threat and then comes the mutas with perfect micro = terran would need to spend it all on defending and probably would fail, but i can't say that for sure maybe a perfect terran can defend vs perfect muta, but then take into account that perfect zerg can calculate the optimal number of drones/expansion/defence to defeat the terran i'm pretty sure perfect zerg is the strongest in starcraft :p
how? if u have enough medics, then it should be alright.
nono, the sunkens would target the marines so that they would die instanty without the medics being able to heal, 2 sunken shots at 1 marine instantly = kill so four sunkens would kill 2 marines per shot, no amount of perfect m&M micro or medics would prevent that. A runby be easily defeated by perfect zergling or drone micro.
I'm going to assume we have 200 distinct units to control, that's say, 200 population of units which are 1 population each. I'm also going to assume you don't build 100000 overlords of 1000000 cannons or sunk/spore which might also need some control.
Starcraft's trigger works by milliseconds, so I'm going to assume that each unit can have an action in every millisecond.
On November 27 2009 17:27 evanthebouncy! wrote: max apm can be calculated.
I'm going to assume we have 200 distinct units to control, that's say, 200 population of units which are 1 population each. I'm also going to assume you don't build 100000 overlords of 1000000 cannons or sunk/spore which might also need some control.
Starcraft's trigger works by milliseconds, so I'm going to assume that each unit can have an action in every millisecond.
Then 200 * 1000 * 60 = 12000000 apm
This is totally legit. Doesn't include buildings for macroing though. But army wise, this.
On November 27 2009 17:27 evanthebouncy! wrote: max apm can be calculated.
I'm going to assume we have 200 distinct units to control, that's say, 200 population of units which are 1 population each. I'm also going to assume you don't build 100000 overlords of 1000000 cannons or sunk/spore which might also need some control.
Starcraft's trigger works by milliseconds, so I'm going to assume that each unit can have an action in every millisecond.
Then 200 * 1000 * 60 = 12000000 apm
wow, the best players have 0.003% the apm needed for perfect starcraft. crazy.
On November 27 2009 17:27 evanthebouncy! wrote: max apm can be calculated.
I'm going to assume we have 200 distinct units to control, that's say, 200 population of units which are 1 population each. I'm also going to assume you don't build 100000 overlords of 1000000 cannons or sunk/spore which might also need some control.
Starcraft's trigger works by milliseconds, so I'm going to assume that each unit can have an action in every millisecond.
Then 200 * 1000 * 60 = 12000000 apm
You can only issue commands on a per-frame basis, in multiplayer only every 2 frames. So substitute 1000 with 25 or 13. That'll be 3,000,000 then. Too bad that a human can't issue orders for more units than he can see in his current screen position at the current frame plus a few orders for control groups (but those might be quite limited by SC's event buffer). You can't change the screen position during a frame. So the maximum APM a human could actually play with if it was phyiscally possible is much lower.
Hydras would be able to pretty much rape M&M once they got a certain mass (have various little Groups of Hydras instakill Marines), it would be like there are no Medics...
On November 27 2009 19:46 Velr wrote: I think Zerg would get it.
Hydras would be able to pretty much rape M&M once they got a certain mass (have various little Groups of Hydras instakill Marines), it would be like there are no Medics...
?
A "little" group consists of at least 6 hydras, if not 8. On the same area, terran can fit like 10 marines, which have higher attack rate (stim) and can focus just as well. It's not that simple.
On November 27 2009 10:14 julealgon wrote: It also starts to get interesting to mind control a vessel and EMP all the medics/ghosts/other vessels in the terran army.
For some reason, I just love this discussion. I have it all the time with a friend of mine xD
MC drops mp of captured unit to 0.
i vaguely remember this being false. haven't touched sc in ages though
On November 27 2009 08:38 HeavOnEarth wrote: it would be Z P> all <_<
-Assuming eAPM = APM, wastage = zero
-Assuming matchup is ZVT, where T goes bio.
Early game building drones/hatch/pool - 20 APM.
Fending off SCV harass/micro'ing lings/lair tech - 50 APM.
Constant scouting/ling backstab threat/sunken/macro leading up to mutas - 70 APM.
One group of muta micro/base management - 90 APM.
Two groups of simultaneous muta micro/base management/lurker tech - 400 APM + Jaedong.
Running 3rd/delaying T push with lurkling/hive teching/constant muta harass 140 APM.
Late game ZVT / too many things to describe - 180 APM.
On November 27 2009 08:26 WheelOfTime wrote: Also there is the key stroke response limit, i.e., sc not responding when you smash 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh too fast and your clicks don't register, so I don't know how that will affect the end results.
No there aren't, but there's monitor reaction time (LCD 2-16ms, CRT 0ms, that's why all sc tv games are played with CRT ones ;]) and keyboard reaction time (professional ones have 1ms, non professional 8-50ms).
On November 27 2009 08:56 foppa wrote: apm is only 1 factor in playing a perfect starcraft game. progamers playing at 500 apm can execute perfect macro and near perfect micro but can still lose due to strategical mistakes during the game. apm really isn't everything.
Watch late game pro games. It is not even near PERFECT micro and macro. Even the best will have around like 800 min in their bank at peak periods of long games. Its like a street fight, you could have the best technique and strategy, but if your opponent is the hulk who only knows how to tackle people, you are still fucked.
yes of course you will have 800 minerals at one point. as protoss as some points of the game you can afford 12 gateways. if you have perfect macro, youre minerals SHOULD climb to 1500.
On November 27 2009 10:14 julealgon wrote: I actually agree with the guy who said 50k apm woult be necessary. It's like imagining every unit being controlled by a single person.
As for which race would be strongest. I really assume terran bio here, for the reasons already mentioned. Ghosts would be killer too, locking down every single high treat target against protoss and using nukes constantly while medics use flare on nearby observers.
Versus zerg, it would still be though, considering how deadly plague/muta would be (instant kill on a lot of units). In that situation, it would be interesting to have dozens of medics casting restorarion, since they will be a lot less occupied healing marines (they would just dodge most enemy fire) and vessels EMPing the defilers and irradianting queens (broodling suddenly gets good). Also, in great numbers, marines destroy everything with perfect micro, due to them having insane dps and being ranged (meaning most of the time all of them are attacking). Still, the biggest treat here are the mutas... I can't come up with a solution to muta harass. Maybe mass blind would be useful in such a situation.
If you think about it also, protoss would be very crazy to fight agains as T. Storms can be dodged, as do scarabs, but maelstrom cannot. If there are tanks, the toss could cast a single disruption web over every single one, and if the corsairs are spread there wouldn't be enough vessels to EMP everything, nor would there be enough ghosts to lockdown. It also starts to get interesting to mind control a vessel and EMP all the medics/ghosts/other vessels in the terran army.
For some reason, I just love this discussion. I have it all the time with a friend of mine xD
tell me if im wrong, but if absolutely perfect APM.. 1 EMP would never be able to hit a corsair unless it was in a corner or something wierd
On November 27 2009 16:13 zergnewb wrote: Perfect marine micro can be stopped. But only by perfect control from the opponent, in which case its like average micro since both people are equal and they will get hurt and stuff so it negates the perfect kinda..i guess?
Perfect medic micro with the marine will be unstoppable!
unless you have perfect Maelstrom/Strom micro on the other side...
On November 27 2009 19:46 Velr wrote: I think Zerg would get it.
Hydras would be able to pretty much rape M&M once they got a certain mass (have various little Groups of Hydras instakill Marines), it would be like there are no Medics...
?
A "little" group consists of at least 6 hydras, if not 8. On the same area, terran can fit like 10 marines, which have higher attack rate (stim) and can focus just as well. It's not that simple.
No it isn't that simple (obviously), but: Whiteout Medics, Marines lose to Hydras (hard). With perfect targeting the Medics become a non factor. Hydra would win hard again?
Btw: You could completly forget Reavers, because everyone would be able to block the scarab with his own units :p.
On November 27 2009 09:08 Boblion wrote: Terran or Zerg would be the strongest.
Too easy to abuse protoss if you have infinite apm ( dodge storm, hit and run vs zeal, dodge archon, dodge scarab etc .... )
If protoss has infinite apm too, then you come to the paradox stage: - you can perfectly dodge storms - he can perfectly place storms so that you can't dodge them
On November 27 2009 09:08 Boblion wrote: Terran or Zerg would be the strongest.
Too easy to abuse protoss if you have infinite apm ( dodge storm, hit and run vs zeal, dodge archon, dodge scarab etc .... )
If protoss has infinite apm too, then you come to the paradox stage: - you can perfectly dodge storms - he can perfectly place storms so that you can't dodge them
How do you solve that?
perfectly dodging storms is impossible. that would imply that you can perfectly predict where the storms will be placed. apm is control, not omniscience.
On November 27 2009 09:08 Boblion wrote: Terran or Zerg would be the strongest.
Too easy to abuse protoss if you have infinite apm ( dodge storm, hit and run vs zeal, dodge archon, dodge scarab etc .... )
If protoss has infinite apm too, then you come to the paradox stage: - you can perfectly dodge storms - he can perfectly place storms so that you can't dodge them
How do you solve that?
perfectly dodging storms is impossible. that would imply that you can perfectly predict where the storms will be placed. apm is control, not omniscience.
Agreed. The only way to land storms would be to cast more than one on the possible routes the units would flee to, same as with EMP.
This discussion is exciting, but I can say only one thing.
Terran mech would be non-existent, since in the presence of siege tanks, the opponent army will have every single one of its troops separated enough as to receive 0 splash damage, making tanks cost effective against nothing.
Though I'm tempted to say Z would rule the earth, I think T's bio would be so insanely strong. So much damage per second in such a small area(rines are as small as lings, but have range). "Perfect" darkswarms would be useless since rines would instantly move as the swarm is being cast, being completely ineffective.
On November 28 2009 00:55 win8282 wrote: This discussion is exciting, but I can say only one thing.
Terran mech would be non-existent, since in the presence of siege tanks, the opponent army will have every single one of its troops separated enough as to receive 0 splash damage, making tanks cost effective against nothing.
Though I'm tempted to say Z would rule the earth, I think T's bio would be so insanely strong. So much damage per second in such a small area(rines are as small as lings, but have range). "Perfect" darkswarms would be useless since rines would instantly move as the swarm is being cast, being completely ineffective.
Eh? To receive 0 splash damage you can't have more than 1 or 2 hydras attacking a unit at a given time, how is that effective?
Swarms aren't fought with reflexes you know? A perfect swarm is the one that is so deep in the enemy's army or mineral lines that even dodging it causes massive damage.
On November 28 2009 00:55 win8282 wrote: This discussion is exciting, but I can say only one thing.
Terran mech would be non-existent, since in the presence of siege tanks, the opponent army will have every single one of its troops separated enough as to receive 0 splash damage, making tanks cost effective against nothing.
Though I'm tempted to say Z would rule the earth, I think T's bio would be so insanely strong. So much damage per second in such a small area(rines are as small as lings, but have range). "Perfect" darkswarms would be useless since rines would instantly move as the swarm is being cast, being completely ineffective.
Not true, where would you get the room to seperate all of your troops without being forced to send in your army small group by group? Even if you do catch tanks out in the open... as your units get closer to the surround, they will get closeer themselves. So unless you wanna send in army piecemeal, youu are gonna have to take splash.
I think a lot more apm could be spent in the early game... I think you could easily reach reidiculous amounts of apm before even completing your first production building... perfect SCV petting anyone? o,O Then imagine that perfect SCV petting the ENTIRE game. o,O
That would be fun to code... an AI algorithm to manage your workers perfectly while they mine.
Heck, it might even be effective to not keep the same three/four workers on a geyeser, switching in ones that are mining mineral patches close to it on occasion....
On November 27 2009 09:04 lone_hydra wrote: Its like a street fight, you could have the best technique and strategy, but if your opponent is the hulk who only knows how to tackle people, you are still fucked.
Asking this question is like saying the strongest sword vs the strongest shield. Perfect muta micro vs perfect muta defense. Perfect storms vs perfect storm dodging.
I don't get it, where do your numbers come from? Why think that perfect play requires so much higher than the best human's apm?
If you think about it, the reason the best of the best average 400 apm is partly because of how much they spam in a sense. This is not to say that if they spammed less, they would play better. The pros do what they do for a reason. But I think theoretically, if actions are not spammed unless absolutely needed, an APM simular to JaeDong's should be enough to do just about anything in starcraft that you would ever need to do. 400 apm = over 6 actions a second. So potentially, you could split those actions up in different parts of the map. I don't think you need more than 400 to theoretically play "perfect starcraft".
Well a guy made the AI micro 12 mutas at once and it still wasn't perfect as even though they killed like 5 or 7 archons without a single muta dieing some still got hit and the archons only attack moved. The APM for the AI was listed as 35k, just for 12 units. Pretty sure 400 doesn't cut it.
On November 28 2009 03:14 WSA wrote: I don't get it, where do your numbers come from? Why think that perfect play requires so much higher than the best human's apm?
If you think about it, the reason the best of the best average 400 apm is partly because of how much they spam in a sense. This is not to say that if they spammed less, they would play better. The pros do what they do for a reason. But I think theoretically, if actions are not spammed unless absolutely needed, an APM simular to JaeDong's should be enough to do just about anything in starcraft that you would ever need to do. 400 apm = over 6 actions a second. So potentially, you could split those actions up in different parts of the map. I don't think you need more than 400 to theoretically play "perfect starcraft".
I lol'd............. no, just no.
What do you consider 'perfect play'? 400 apm would be enough to control 1 or 2 units, no more than that.
On November 28 2009 03:14 WSA wrote: I don't get it, where do your numbers come from? Why think that perfect play requires so much higher than the best human's apm?
If you think about it, the reason the best of the best average 400 apm is partly because of how much they spam in a sense. This is not to say that if they spammed less, they would play better. The pros do what they do for a reason. But I think theoretically, if actions are not spammed unless absolutely needed, an APM simular to JaeDong's should be enough to do just about anything in starcraft that you would ever need to do. 400 apm = over 6 actions a second. So potentially, you could split those actions up in different parts of the map. I don't think you need more than 400 to theoretically play "perfect starcraft".
I lol'd............. no, just no.
What do you consider 'perfect play'? 400 apm would be enough to control 1 or 2 units, no more than that.
That's retarded, you don't have to issue even close to 200 commands a minute for one unit. Perfect means no wasted clicks too, you know.
we have to assume the AI is also extremely intelligent and fast. Like the ability to calculate the perfect distance to cast dark swarm given the proximity of science vessels, or siege tank placement based on predictions of the incoming enemy. APM doesn't matter as much.
On November 27 2009 19:46 Velr wrote: I think Zerg would get it.
Hydras would be able to pretty much rape M&M once they got a certain mass (have various little Groups of Hydras instakill Marines), it would be like there are no Medics...
?
A "little" group consists of at least 6 hydras, if not 8. On the same area, terran can fit like 10 marines, which have higher attack rate (stim) and can focus just as well. It's not that simple.
No it isn't that simple (obviously), but: Whiteout Medics, Marines lose to Hydras (hard). With perfect targeting the Medics become a non factor. Hydra would win hard again?
Btw: You could completly forget Reavers, because everyone would be able to block the scarab with his own units :p.
that's assuming the computer knows what the other computer is targeting. If the reaver was targeting another unit, the block would not work.
and starcraft probably won't respond to commands that are above a certain apm since it requires a certain amount of delay for the threads of the game, although this probably won't be a factor.
On November 29 2009 15:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: That's retarded, you don't have to issue even close to 200 commands a minute for one unit. Perfect means no wasted clicks too, you know.
Suppose microing a muta takes 1 action per second. Microing a group of 12 mutas (because there do exist situations where, if you had the APM to micro them individually, it would be advantageous to do so) would already take 720 APM, not including macro.
It's easy to theorycraft, but I still think it will be interesting to see what happens when we pit 2 "perfect" starcraft AI players against each other. I wonder if we really will see a race imbalance. And if we do, its a weird situation where human error actually balances the game, instead of screws things up.
I think what everyone's failing to consider is that if we pitted two AIs with enough APM for perfect micro and/or decision-making, we would see them cheesing a lot of the time. Some units are just flat out faster and more maneuverable than others in the early game, and with perfect micro you'd just see optimized cheese builds.
On November 29 2009 17:03 d3_crescentia wrote: I think what everyone's failing to consider is that if we pitted two AIs with enough APM for perfect micro and/or decision-making, we would see them cheesing a lot of the time. Some units are just flat out faster and more maneuverable than others in the early game, and with perfect micro you'd just see optimized cheese builds.
True but wouldn't you also see perfect cheese defense as well?
Actually, I think T>Z>P>T balance would stay the same with perfect play.
T>Z bio would be ridiculous. It seems like theoretically, a perfectly microed MnM group > an equivalent mutalisk group, ditto with lurkers. Also, keeping science vessels alive.
Z>P is obvious. Imagine what perfectly controlled Dark Archons can do to the Zerg.
P>T, all I can say is perfect stasis (no cast travel time so you can't dodge it like EMP) and damn near impossible for T to catch an arbiter (or really anything important) with an EMP.
On November 29 2009 17:56 Hinanawi wrote: Actually, I think T>Z>P>T balance would stay the same with perfect play.
T>Z bio would be ridiculous. It seems like theoretically, a perfectly microed MnM group > an equivalent mutalisk group, ditto with lurkers. Also, keeping science vessels alive.
Z>P is obvious. Imagine what perfectly controlled Dark Archons can do to the Zerg.
P>T, all I can say is perfect stasis (no cast travel time so you can't dodge it like EMP) and damn near impossible for T to catch an arbiter (or really anything important) with an EMP.
I don't think it's safe to assume that we'd see the same unit compositions or build orders. Granted I can imagine a perfectly microed group of MnM tearing up an lurkers, but I think my point stands. What if some hydraling build with a perfect flank and micro defeats perfectly microed MnM. It's possible that both mutas and lurks (not necessarily probable) could be phased out of the game play entirely until hive tech.
There is a very easy way to check that. Ask a friend to play against you and make a game in slowest. Then do everything which is necessary, and don't spam. You have time to do everything you want if you hotkey a lot. Yes, even microing units individually (not with a maxed army, ok, ok, ok...but at least in early game and early mid-game)
Then check your apm with bwcharts. You can probably get around 1000 quite easily.
Macroing absolutely perefctly doesn't recquire very very high eapm. If you have already played in a team melee, you know that a player taking care of macro by himself can keep minerals below 300 for a whole game easily.
People don't believe that what is hard is multitasking and not playing very fast. I think looking at how many time a player changes screen a minute would be a more reliable skill information than eapm. That, you can see by watching Bisu Flash and Jaedong in FPVOD.
Protoss will win %100 basically because of perfect probe rush, maybe z could have a chance with 4 pool, (and maybe you can micro your probes perfectly against lings lol) so protoss ez with infinite apm
Just because that one Muta AI does use 35k APM doesnt mean that's necessary, or even close to what's necessary. I don't know the exact attack rate of mutas, but it should be around 1 hit per second on fastest. For each hit you need like 2 Move, 1 Hold command, that's 3 commands per second, or 180 APM. Times 12 that's 2120 APM. If you count selects as additional commands you get 4320 APM. That AI just spams a lot because it can't predict anything.
Look at that APM. if someone had 35k+ apm he will win every league because hes so imba. and ofcourse that kind of muta micro and multitasking. its just sick
On November 27 2009 19:46 Velr wrote: I think Zerg would get it.
Hydras would be able to pretty much rape M&M once they got a certain mass (have various little Groups of Hydras instakill Marines), it would be like there are no Medics...
?
A "little" group consists of at least 6 hydras, if not 8. On the same area, terran can fit like 10 marines, which have higher attack rate (stim) and can focus just as well. It's not that simple.
No it isn't that simple (obviously), but: Whiteout Medics, Marines lose to Hydras (hard). With perfect targeting the Medics become a non factor. Hydra would win hard again?
Btw: You could completly forget Reavers, because everyone would be able to block the scarab with his own units :p.
scarab would hit faster than unit would, so even if u perfectly execute, most of the time scarab will hit the target ;]
On November 29 2009 15:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: That's retarded, you don't have to issue even close to 200 commands a minute for one unit. Perfect means no wasted clicks too, you know.
Suppose microing a muta takes 1 action per second. Microing a group of 12 mutas (because there do exist situations where, if you had the APM to micro them individually, it would be advantageous to do so) would already take 720 APM, not including macro.
try doing that vs mnm lol. Stacked muta micro is better than solo muta micro in most of the cases.
EPT
(assuming perfect coordination though)
