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Hmmm... to add to the rabid tech-switching theme...
Is there a reason you can't go 9 ranged hydras --> muta attack --> 3-6 lurker + remaining hydras contain? Skipping hydralisk speed and delaying unit production until all four bases are saturated?
The theme seems to be to force the Protoss to build lots of stuff he doesn't actually want, in order to delay his push until your fourth is running and you can crush him with macro. You forced forward cannons with a small number of hydras, and back cannons with a small number of mutalisk... now you can force observers + something other than Zealot/Archon with a small number of lurkers. Meanwhile droning up your fourth.
I'm not too keen on the 9pool speed opening for OverDose, because it forces a similar response (extra forward cannons) to the 9hydra pressure... it seems like you're denying information without capitalizing on it. (9pool speed-->2hatch hydra forces enough cannons that the Protoss will likely lose against other builds if he plays to counter this one, but your hydra force doesn't look big or early enough to punish him for not predicting a hydra break.) Either hydra pressure --> 3hatch muta or speedling pressure --> 3hatch muta looks reasonable, but both is perhaps redundant.
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Hmm the idea of 9 pool would force extra cannons and honestly i never thought of that. However the main idea from what dustbowl said- was that with a 9 pool speed build protoss would be essentially blind untill the first corsair is out, and would not be able to see the hydra. 9 range hydra can easily handle 2 cannons- and with your 8 speedling you could really be able to have a pretty strong timing attack. But like i said i have not had the chance to mass game or try this idea out yet, so i will have to get back to you on the results.
As for the lurker suggestion, i really like this idea- but what would stop the protoss from just running through? Hmm i wonder how much gas i would have to even make lurkers with only 2 gas. Maybe i should go 3 gas earlier while upgrading lurkers, and then set a contain....
Severedevil i really like this idea because it sounds alot stronger than the original (which is just use hydra)
I think that your idea will do everything that i want much better than my original idea! Because like you said- Forcing obs would delay him even more, and with some of your muta around snipping the obs with scourge will be much easier when muta can soak up damage. Then considering that with a well spread out lurker field, storm is much less effective, this would make my 1 or 2 groups of hydra much more useful and safe from storm while they are sitting in the back of the lurker field. i really think this would a strong element to my otherwise weak midgame!
I can't believe this never even crossed my mind! I WILL TRY THIS and i just can't wait till i can post some good games. thanks for the suggestion, it is appreciated!
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This is a low econ aggressive build, and it largely depends on muta damage, but then again so does 3hatspire-5hat hydra muta. The timings of this build are:
a) 6:30 9hydra attack
b) 7:20 muta attack.
In that last rep toss corsair poped ~7min. If some z goes 12hat little lings this means as P I can get away with nexus first->1cannon->stargate which makes for a completed sair ~5:30. This means P could scout hydra coming to base in time to add a couple cannons. This mans P could see you are still on 3hat and muta pop. The timings are all scoutable and the element of surprise is gone. Pretty sure it woudl be the same case with 9pool opening, you would delay eco to start to force more cannons which equals out.
This is of course assuming protoss is playing tight, is able to scout, interpret, and react to that information. But hey, as we all known lots of protoss are not nearly able to do the above. Bottom line, its a decent build plan. Have fun with the low econ aggressive play, and be happy you are innovating and doing something different than the norm.
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Knickkknack, the timings that you are giving are when the units arrive at a cross position base on HBR. To say that a corsair could not be found and or killed by the muta or possibly hydra (If p decided to try and snipe a lord close to his nat) then i would venture to guess that P may not get a scout in even at this time. Your right about the 9 pool speed, and as i have shown the the computer replay- it really does delay your teck.
In the game that you are talking about knickknack- muta are out before 7 min and hydra are out before 6:30. The only way that P could possibly scout my base would be to fly directly to my base, bypassing all of the overlords. Now i am not trying to say that this wouldn't happen. However could a protoss even react at this time? If it takes about 40 seconds for the protoss to even cross the map with the sair- wouldn't it be to late to start covering for the muta?
I think that i will have a chance to play on friday- so i will do some testing on this time problem that might create a bit of a problem. Also one last question- would it be fair to really call this build a low econ aggression build? while i realize this is not anything like 5 hatch hydra however even though the drone count will be 7-8 lower than normal- the build makes room for the addition of a 4th and 5th hatch after the muta are off. Wouldn't this allow for the production capability to make up for the lost drones in the early game?
I created this build as a middle ground, or a softer type of play than an all in 3 or 4 hatch dra. yet at the same time i took into account the 0 pressure macro style 5 hatch builds. I wanted to create something in between. do you think that i failed in this endeavor? and that this build is nothing more than a variation of a 4 hatch?
Once again thanks for your comments and critique. Now only if starbrit would get back to me lol
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I agree with Knickknack that you can't conceal your attacks without going for more of an all-in. I thought the point of the build was that you were OK even if the Protoss scouted you.
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This is a really good build. I can see that you've put a lot of time into this, its amazing! :D
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If he scouts you early then just make 9 drones, go lurker tech, and take your 4th. The corsair can't tell the difference between 9 drones or 9 mutas and now he has to make a bunch of cannons and corsairs at his main that will be useless and delay his push.
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i just played my variantion of the bo against cpu for a bo:
you can see, i didnt get delayed hyds (maybe 2 secs) but 2 drones more and fast lair. of course you can build the spire before the hyds now and delay them for faster mutas, that is just another new option.
another option i just thought of is a fast lurker build:
you could maybe even skip hyd range and tech to lurker instead. but you morph the 9 hyds. the protoss player cannot know that, so he is forced to cannon up. than you morph your lurkers (maybe about 4-5 i guess) and on a map like destination/heartbreak(burrow push them though^^)/medusa you can do alot of damage from behind the natural now. the corsair should be too late to scout it i guess and even if he does, he have to place even more cannons (4 in front, 2 in minline, maybe block the way to the main..) and you didnt have the high costs of all the mutas.
i think the variations of this build with fast lair are numerous (fast mutas/slower mutas, hyd bust, fast lurkers, slow drop(?), eco+lurker...) and its really hard to scout and react perfectly.
starbrift may be right in many points, but i think he didnt take all these variations into account
+ element of surprise.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
Well I don't think I executed the build correctly at all, but it seems to be working anyhow and even got me to C-!
Thanks Misrah!
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Hey Kau ty for the game lol :D
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On November 01 2009 21:54 Werezerg wrote:i just played my variantion of the bo against cpu for a bo: you can see, i didnt get delayed hyds (maybe 2 secs) but 2 drones more and fast lair. of course you can build the spire before the hyds now and delay them for faster mutas, that is just another new option. another option i just thought of is a fast lurker build: you could maybe even skip hyd range and tech to lurker instead. but you morph the 9 hyds. the protoss player cannot know that, so he is forced to cannon up. than you morph your lurkers (maybe about 4-5 i guess) and on a map like destination/heartbreak(burrow push them though^^)/medusa you can do alot of damage from behind the natural now. the corsair should be too late to scout it i guess and even if he does, he have to place even more cannons (4 in front, 2 in minline, maybe block the way to the main..) and you didnt have the high costs of all the mutas. i think the variations of this build with fast lair are numerous (fast mutas/slower mutas, hyd bust, fast lurkers, slow drop(?), eco+lurker...) and its really hard to scout and react perfectly. starbrift may be right in many points, but i think he didnt take all these variations into account + element of surprise.
Holy shit i really like where you are going with this. I need to get on and play some games to try some of these variations out!
This makes the build so flexible- and considering that it's easily able to do insane tech switches there is no way a single corsair flyover before scourge or muta come out could possibly tell what the hell is going on.
This sounds really good, now we just need to get some mass games to empirically test this. I will be uploading my games this week. Everyone that plays make sure to do the same
Also kau glad that you are finding some success! but watch out i guess this build doesn't work against a good protoss- so let me know when you start playing a protoss that hard counters you ok?
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On October 29 2009 12:47 Misrah wrote:@ starbrift- here is a game that i just recently played against some C protoss. I am using a new build order that werezerg had suggested. His build is a lair first build that gets hydras out a bit later, however you can have 7 muta pop at 7min exactly. With this new build, your spire is not delayed 40 seconds, and you can still force cannons/end the game if P is not honest. This build is better all around. The lair first then den at 23 supply looks as if Z is going lurker, or just getting a faster den. I really haven't had that much of a chance to play- but i was exited to try out this new idea- dust bowls variation 9pool speed is next for me i guess. Starbrit can you watch this rep? Once again i realize that P players at the C level are not perfect. I would never expect something like this to work at crazy high level, or expect to change the meat game with this. I just think that it's a nice build for D-Cish level players to try. Because unlike the pros, or people posting counters after the fact- there is no way that someone can come up with a counter in game at most foreigner level of play. Really the replay just embarrasses the protoss... I will try and get some more games in this weekend and post the results. But till then i hope that this rep makes do.
The build was better but the long drone cuts still makes this build all in imo. If one defends from the hydra push and the mutas you are far behind. Again in that game the protoss had his stargate for like 30 sec before he started building a corsair. If he had scouted your mutas they wouldn't have killed his main.
If you do a 9speed or overspeed opening though you can probably get away with this vs better players. If you deny scout his defenses will be thrown off and unless he plays a hungry toss style he will have a hard time understanding what you're doing. Best case scenario he overdefends early on and still dont defend well enough. But then again if he scouts it he should be able to counter it.
This protoss played a more modern style PvZ with a faster second gate, he countered your hydra attack better than most because of it and if he had scouted your mutas he would have been in a better position than the people going for 4 gate archon timing.
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Sup TL- i am about to blow your minds. here is the new OD style, vs a B- 70-40 Korean protoss 300apm who was ranking his alt up. He was at C- level and 11-0 until he met my build. What happened next, can only be described as art.
Please enjoy as OD style confuses- and then turns the game into a rape. The finishing blow is picturesque.
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ouch hehe. That was a bad game XD Maybe next time ovie speed will magically get researched lol
But GG none the less
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United States10774 Posts
"how to not sound like a douche while getting pwned"
1a..oh wait where are my mutas?! 
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On November 06 2009 06:13 Misrah wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sup TL- i am about to blow your minds. here is the new OD style, vs a B- 70-40 Korean protoss 300apm who was ranking his alt up. He was at C- level and 11-0 until he met my build. What happened next, can only be described as art. Please enjoy as OD style confuses- and then turns the game into a rape. The finishing blow is picturesque.
Nice. Definitely a successful deceiving!
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