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On October 26 2009 05:15 Misrah wrote:Just a small update- i played a terran today who went for a really fast siege push into my base. range hydra rocked it hard!! I think that this build might actually be really good vs any 1 base terran play! Checkout this rep it's a GG for sure.
Uh, that Terran sucked. So not really the sternest test for this build.
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Have you liquipedia'd this... I'm not quite sure if there is an appropriate section, but there should be. This is a great guide for an interesting build. Thanks
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why do you build the hydra den so early? i think the range upgrade finishes when you didnt even start your hydras. so why not delay it a bit for a bit better econ? something like 18ovi 18 den +1drone and range when u can afford it without drone delay...range is still ready a long time before you need it. or even 16ovi and den at 20 sup or something like that. i cannot see any disadvantages, but probably its not a big deal.
and i really like the build, finally i can punish bad p players fast without playing allin 
great work!
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when I saw the thread title, I knew you were the author lol
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I watched a few of the replays and I can't say I was too impressed... most of the players completely overreacted and built like 7-8 cannons at their naturals when they saw the hydras (I only watched the ZvPs). When that happens I'm not even sure going mutas is the proper follow-up as it's kind of an unnecessarily risky move (1 storm, 1 archon + shield battery means a lot of wasted money for you). I think in that situation you'd be much better off just grabbing a fourth gas and teching to lurkers...
I do like the idea though, I'm a big fan of aggressive openings! It kind of reminds me of Luxury's 9 pool speedlings build which has worked well for me in the past... basically it's speedlings >>> 3 hatches >>> 11 mutas asap. It forces your Toss opponent to create cannons and possible pull probes just like in your build, but the mutas come out faster/more numerous as it obviously saves on gas. Perhaps you should consider opening with speedlings? I realize that your build is very gas tight but I just can't imagine this working at the C level tbh. Your opponent is going to see the hydras coming 100% of the time so basically you're just committing yourself to a failed hydra bust every game... or let me rephrase... this build kind of seems like a compromise between a hydra bust and 5 hatch hydra, it's a really middle of the road build. The hydras will in all probability do little damage as your opponent is guaranteed to scout them so you have to rely on the mutas to do damage... but the mutas are late and not so numerous... and on the other hand your economy isn't so good... IMO the build just really doesn't force the Toss to do much of anything... it's not forcing the Toss to look for a 3rd gas and it's not putting a whole lot of pressure on the Toss's natural and main. So I dunno, those are just my thoughts, don't be discouraged!
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On October 26 2009 06:54 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 05:15 Misrah wrote:Just a small update- i played a terran today who went for a really fast siege push into my base. range hydra rocked it hard!! I think that this build might actually be really good vs any 1 base terran play! Checkout this rep it's a GG for sure. Uh, that Terran sucked. So not really the sternest test for this build.
meh he was just C- so i don't know how good he really was my bad. Most of the protoss games are at C level. The build was really not created to zvt. I am just testing it when i get the chance. Considering that most of my games are P or bio T these days for some reason lol i apologize for posting a sub standard replay. however against 3 port wraith this build seems to strike a critical timing in the terran build, so i figured that i might get lucky with it- and just want tot try testing it with other T builds.
On October 26 2009 07:03 Werezerg wrote:why do you build the hydra den so early? i think the range upgrade finishes when you didnt even start your hydras. so why not delay it a bit for a bit better econ? something like 18ovi 18 den +1drone and range when u can afford it without drone delay...range is still ready a long time before you need it. or even 16ovi and den at 20 sup or something like that. i cannot see any disadvantages, but probably its not a big deal. and i really like the build, finally i can punish bad p players fast without playing allin great work!
The upgrade for range finishes at the time of the 9 hydra pop. all of the replays show this. the den is at a perfect timing with the current build.
On October 26 2009 07:17 DustBowl wrote:
I watched a few of the replays and I can't say I was too impressed... most of the players completely overreacted and built like 7-8 cannons at their naturals when they saw the hydras (I only watched the ZvPs). When that happens I'm not even sure going mutas is the proper follow-up as it's kind of an unnecessarily risky move (1 storm, 1 archon + shield battery means a lot of wasted money for you). I think in that situation you'd be much better off just grabbing a fourth gas and teching to lurkers...
I do like the idea though, I'm a big fan of aggressive openings! It kind of reminds me of Luxury's 9 pool speedlings build which has worked well for me in the past... basically it's speedlings >>> 3 hatches >>> 11 mutas asap. It forces your Toss opponent to create cannons and possible pull probes just like in your build, but the mutas come out faster/more numerous as it obviously saves on gas. Perhaps you should consider opening with speedlings? I realize that your build is very gas tight but I just can't imagine this working at the C level tbh. Your opponent is going to see the hydras coming 100% of the time so basically you're just committing yourself to a failed hydra bust every game... or let me rephrase... this build kind of seems like a compromise between a hydra bust and 5 hatch hydra, it's a really middle of the road build. The hydras will in all probability do little damage as your opponent is guaranteed to scout them so you have to rely on the mutas to do damage... but the mutas are late and not so numerous... and on the other hand your economy isn't so good... IMO the build just really doesn't force the Toss to do much of anything... it's not forcing the Toss to look for a 3rd gas and it's not putting a whole lot of pressure on the Toss's natural and main. So I dunno, those are just my thoughts, don't be discouraged!
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic.
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On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic.
I WAS trying to be relevant... and my advice was: consider a 9 pool speedlings opening. In my experience there's really no point in going for an aggressive Zerg opening like this if your opponent knows it's coming, as well as the exact number of hydras that are coming.... You have nothing to kill the Toss's initial scouting probe with until all 9 hydras pop, and let's not forget that these hydras have range and no speed so they're going to be moving across the map very slowing, giving the Toss enough time to prepare. Furthermore, if you're just extremely lucky and manage to kill the scouting probe with drones (which is what happened in one of the replays I watched) you're opponent would have to be really arrogant not to send another scouting probe... Now, like I said before, I realize that this build is already gas heavy so 100 gas going to speed is a lot to spare, but it would seem to me that if you could somehow figure out a way to incorporate it into your build it would make it much stronger. Perhaps you could move with only 6 hydras and a dozen lings but of course I haven't tested any of this. If your goal is just to snipe the forge or gateway in front of the Toss's base and/or force cannons with the initial hydra attack though I don't see why this wouldn't work. Also, remember that by opening this way your Toss opponent is effectively blind so the possibility of just poking your head in with the lings and pumping hydras accordingly or simply running by is always an option.
I'm sorry if my previous post or even this one sounds arrogant or condescending, I'm not the best at critiquing the tone of my own posts! Like I said before though, I'm a fan of aggressive openings like this and that's why I posted earlier... I just thought I'd offer you my opinion.
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so holy shit TL i just played some one from TL (SHOUT OUT TO YOU!!!!) a protoss player- who knew the build. This replay is an insane late game craziness PVZ extravaganza. this stale mate game is characterized by me failing at dodging storms, and getting rolled. Thank god for that macro. for the love of all things good an decent
watch this game
1 hour of pvz madness
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The upgrade for range finishes at the time of the 9 hydra pop. all of the replays show this. the den is at a perfect timing with the current build.
Range should finish when your hydras arrive at their base not when they hatch...
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On October 26 2009 09:18 Misrah wrote:so holy shit TL i just played some one from TL (SHOUT OUT TO YOU!!!!) a protoss player- who knew the build. This replay is an insane late game craziness PVZ extravaganza. this stale mate game is characterized by me failing at dodging storms, and getting rolled. Thank god for that macro. for the love of all things good an decent watch this game1 hour of pvz madness
1 hour of pvz boredom. You guys didn't do anything for 40 minutes except mine the map out. Why no defiler tech?!
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defilers are for pussies lol!
or i just didn't think about it......... lol plaguu would have been helpful
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This seems to be a build that works great against low level players who don't know how to react when they scout something but not so good against mid to high level players with a head on their shoulders.
All the timings in this builds are later than their respective optimal rush builds and you have nothing that limits scouting what so ever. Defending the hydra attack would not be hard if scouted seeing as how you don't even have speed on them. Once fended off the protoss (don't try this vs a competent terran) will proceed to scout your late muta tech and your low drone count and realise another all in attack is coming. When he safely defends this with corsairs and cannons he will proceed to keep pressuring you into making units instead of drones, he will stay on 2 bases and mass gates and your poor economy will get you run over eventually.
This build basically puts economy in the pooper for slow timings and mind tricks that only work on low level players or players with a bad strategical understanding.
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On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft
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This actually looks pretty interesting. I'll give it a shot :d
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Why not speed hydras instead?
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On October 26 2009 12:26 StarBrift wrote:
This seems to be a build that works great against low level players who don't know how to react when they scout something but not so good against mid to high level players with a head on their shoulders.
All the timings in this builds are later than their respective optimal rush builds and you have nothing that limits scouting what so ever. Defending the hydra attack would not be hard if scouted seeing as how you don't even have speed on them. Once fended off the protoss (don't try this vs a competent terran) will proceed to scout your late muta tech and your low drone count and realise another all in attack is coming. When he safely defends this with corsairs and cannons he will proceed to keep pressuring you into making units instead of drones, he will stay on 2 bases and mass gates and your poor economy will get you run over eventually.
This build basically puts economy in the pooper for slow timings and mind tricks that only work on low level players or players with a bad strategical understanding.
ya..... im sorry that not everyone is an A+ player like you. I guess that C opponents are really that bad? What could i possibly be thinking trying to teck switch against someone who clearly would know the proper response to what ever i do just by flying a sair through my base.
Hmm going by your logic- any build is pointless! Because hey lets face it, every build has a weakness. but considering that you have never played against this build (i don't even think that you play z or p) nor have you watched any of the reps, you know what you are talking about. I like how i spend weeks testing this- and it takes you 5 min to write it off lol
Also my economy isn't injured that terribly- because if these were really all in attacks, why is the game going to the late game? 15-20 min games are not failed all in. But hey what am i talking about. even when i played this build against some one who read this thread- the game went into late game. so wait- does that mean, that no matter if you already know the build, you still have to react to it? and that just maybe its effective?
Clearly reading my guide didnt occur to you because it's posts like these that really just annoy me. Thanks so much all high and mighty A+ player! clearly i should never play starcraft against you because you will understand everything that i am doing and have the perfect counter. Sweet you countered my build on paper awesome.
my last question is: if you can create perfect counters to everything with limited scouting information-
your god! when are you winning your first OSL???
On October 26 2009 14:19 TimmyMac wrote:
Why not speed hydras instead?
because i want the hydra range to be able to snipe cannons, forge and gate. HBR is a pretty easy map to cover your gate and forge with cannons. but on maps like desti, python, luna ext it gets much much harder to stop me from sniping those with out building tons of cannon.
edit: missed this
On October 26 2009 07:51 DustBowl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic. I WAS trying to be relevant... and my advice was: consider a 9 pool speedlings opening. In my experience there's really no point in going for an aggressive Zerg opening like this if your opponent knows it's coming, as well as the exact number of hydras that are coming.... You have nothing to kill the Toss's initial scouting probe with until all 9 hydras pop, and let's not forget that these hydras have range and no speed so they're going to be moving across the map very slowing, giving the Toss enough time to prepare. Furthermore, if you're just extremely lucky and manage to kill the scouting probe with drones (which is what happened in one of the replays I watched) you're opponent would have to be really arrogant not to send another scouting probe... Now, like I said before, I realize that this build is already gas heavy so 100 gas going to speed is a lot to spare, but it would seem to me that if you could somehow figure out a way to incorporate it into your build it would make it much stronger. Perhaps you could move with only 6 hydras and a dozen lings but of course I haven't tested any of this. If your goal is just to snipe the forge or gateway in front of the Toss's base and/or force cannons with the initial hydra attack though I don't see why this wouldn't work. Also, remember that by opening this way your Toss opponent is effectively blind so the possibility of just poking your head in with the lings and pumping hydras accordingly or simply running by is always an option. I'm sorry if my previous post or even this one sounds arrogant or condescending, I'm not the best at critiquing the tone of my own posts! Like I said before though, I'm a fan of aggressive openings like this and that's why I posted earlier... I just thought I'd offer you my opinion.
A 9 pool speedling build would put your economy and teck so far behind that i really don't know if it's viable. however i am willing to try this. i will see how this turns out at C level and hopefully can find some better success. my only worry would be- getting hydra out too late to fight that sair, because spire timing is going to be late but i have yet to try it. this is an idea that i can work with. thanks for this i appreciate it immensely (honestly i never would have thought of this lol) considering that this is the first suggestion- it's time to test it out
and about your previous post- i jumped on you. no doubt about that. Clearly that wasn't your intent. my poor reading skills are probably the culprit lol. Hope that you will forgive me 
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On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
The upgrade for range finishes at the time of the 9 hydra pop. all of the replays show this. the den is at a perfect timing with the current build.
i just rewatched 2 reps and u are still wrong. the range finishes when u just START your hyds, it is still more than 1 minute till they are at the opponents base! so you could delay your hyd den + range up for this whole minute.
i may have just a few posts here but i have eyes in my head...
edit: just tested a bit, u can even make lair before hyd den. so u will have a bit better eco, faster lair and no disadvantages in my eyes. its even harder to read for the toss. i am still testing the timings a bit, but something like this should be fine:
3 hatch standard
15 gas (no need for earlier gas, u will have enough for the 9 hyds)
16 ovi
20 drones +lair
23 hyd den + ovi
range when den is finished
24 ovi
24 2. gas (earlier so u get the lost gas back for mutas if necessary?!?)
drones till about 27
then 9 hyds.
range will be easily ready before hyds arrive at toss base. and hyds should not be later. i just tested this bo 1 time and forgot the 1 ovi u need more, so i will test it later again and post replay. this timings are perhaps not perfect yet, dont have enough time now. but really i cannot see any disadvantages...u can even build the mutas a bit earlier! and maybe toss thinks u are going for fast lurker stuff.
edit2: ok i tested it now, it just worked out like yours, maybe 1 drone more, nothing significant. only toss could missinterprete the faster lair with later hyd den as lurker tech. and there would be the additional possibility to delay the hyds a little bit (few seconds) for a few more drones because of the additional overlord. well nothing great :D
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I watched a few reps and if I noticed after all the muta pop you have like ~400 minerals in the bank, and no larvae, which is when you expand. I would just recommend plopping down another hatch as you're waiting for the round of ovies to pop while spire is building. Especially HBR, due to how faaar the usual 4th is.
Forgetting about the metagame analysis 'how player X would react, player Y is a noob' this plays out like 5hatch with a twist. Few hydras early to fuck with your opponents head, and then take advantage of that with mutas. I like tech switching and I like this build. Will try against D+ tomorrow.
edit: as in the post above, some early game stuff could be tweaked depending on how you want to play it / what you want to let P see
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On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft
Lol? That was a joke, right?
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On October 26 2009 17:16 Leg[end] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft Lol? That was a joke, right?
TvZ has always been statistically in favor of terran, in alot of cases, moreso than ZvP.. it's just people don't complain like a bitch about it compared to PvZ.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/23002.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/23011.jpg)
