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so holy shit TL i just played some one from TL (SHOUT OUT TO YOU!!!!) a protoss player- who knew the build. This replay is an insane late game craziness PVZ extravaganza. this stale mate game is characterized by me failing at dodging storms, and getting rolled. Thank god for that macro. for the love of all things good an decent
watch this game
1 hour of pvz madness
**Note- this guide is unlike any of the other guides that I have ever written. I can say with out a shadow of a doubt that this is the most empirically tested build that I have ever decided to unveil. I began fooling around with it on one of my alts. I started around the C- level and have used this build solely for every P and mechanizing T game. Currently I am C with this alt, and plan to just keep laddering using this build. I would consider this to be my opus magnum of build ideas. I know by experience this works against good opponents, and is not in any way some kind of cute noob smashing build.**
Preface:
Hi to those that know me, and to those that don't let me explain a little bit about myself. I have been playing SC for many years and started playing competitively about 2 years ago. I really like to try and re think zerg match ups, and have come up with some pretty crazy ideas. Most of which I admit have been a complete and total failure.
My credentials as a starcraft player are few. If your looking for an icup rank I really don't have an accurate one to give. Currently on my 'build idea test account' I am at C ranking. So that makes me some what of an in between in the knowledge base of SC I guess. Please take this guide at face value.
This build presentation is about my newest and frankly finest creation. TL I present to you Over Dose Zerg.
This thread will not become a place for stupid argument over theory crafting a perfect counter to this build. I certainly realize that this build has it's faults and is by no means perfect. What I simply ask is that you the reader will try this build. Post a replay, give some of your thoughts on the BO what you did/did not find effective and add to this discussion. As a fair warning here and now, I will not respond to any of the aforementioned type of poor posts.
Introduction:
The build presentation will be organized in the following format:
Part One will encompass the builds overall goals in the early, middle and late game.
Part Two will encompass the build order
Part Three will encompass OverDose Style vs. Protoss
Part Four will encompass OverDose Style vs. Terran
Part Five will encompass OverDose replays. Opponents range from 3500-5000 points
Part One
The OverDose Style
“The subtle art of early game zerg”
OverDose (OD) style is the culmination of my ideas about the way zerg plays in the early and middle game. It is a direct decedent of this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94082 , albeit much more refined. This has caused the build to become very useful, and is certainly not any type of a gimmicky play. It's simplest definition could be the following: A variation of 5 hatch hydra that allows for more early game pressure.
The early game ideas of OD zerg are much like the other zerg builds. OD zerg is simply a way that zerg can create the hint of normalcy while subtly using the unique zerg production abilities for bold early game pressure. The early game helps to build up for an early mid timing attack that will allow for easy access to OD style's primary goal: 4 base gas while simultaneously delaying and denying opponent 3rd base.
The mid game is characterized in the OD build with the use of mutalisk. The mutalisk help to further our goal by providing excellent map control, while delaying opponents 3rd base. OD style uses a strong early game timing contain in conjunction with high mobility mutalisk to force opponents into a very defensive position. Static defense is key for the opponent, and OD style attempts to disrupt macro timings by forcing extra defense at key mid game timings. A successful use of OD style in the mid game should result in the following:
Denied / Delayed 3rd
Denied / Delayed macro
Awkward attack and defense timing for opponent
The late game of OD style starts once the primary objective has been completed. Once Zerg has achieved 4 gas OD style has run it's course and the game will progress as a standard late game and into the end game.
Part Two
“The blue prints of OD”
The build order explanation in the following paragraphs is used for the protoss match up. OD use vs. terran will be discussed later in the guide.
9 overlord – 9 drone scout – 12 hatch – 11 pool – 13 hatch (at expo if protoss FE) – extractor with next
50 minerals – one pair of zerglings – drone till 18/18. Do not make an overlord.
Now the first part of the build order is now complete. So far we have what seems to be a very normal looking 3 hatch gas zerg build. The only deviation from normal play is the forgotten overlord. Once your gas pops put 3 drones on gas. Once at 50 gas have a drone build a hydralisk den. Next 100 minerals go to an overlord. Supply count should be 17/18
Make another drone 18/18 – once den pops upgrade hydra range – once lord pops build drones till 23/27- build your 3rd overlord.
At this point the build immediately looks like a 3 hatch hydra bust vs protoss. We need to alleviate protoss fears and try to show that we have no such idea in mind.
Stay at 23/27 until 150min is reached build lair – build 27/27 drones and with 27th drone take 2nd extractor. - overlord pops 26/35 – once 2nd gas pops put 3 drones on
This is where your build kicks in. Sit on 26/35 supply until you have 675 minerals and 225 gas. Your hydra range should complete just when you have 9 larvae and 600 mins ready to build your 9 hydra.
Build hydra 36/36 – build overlord with next 100 mins – build 4th hatchery at 3rd with next 300 mins. - once lair pops throw down your spire.
When your spire is building you need to replenish the drone count that was lost in the creation of hydra. Currently 26 drones are alive and mining. Getting to 35 and having 2/3 overlords for muta is the next goal. (I must stress that your muta timing is going to be more important than drones at this point in time. If you need to make allowances, chose for later drones over later muta.) This build will get muta out and harassing the enemy base 40 seconds slower than 3 hatch muta. Keep this in mind.
Once muta are morphing:
Build overlords if necessary - Get your 5th hatch with next avaliable 300 mins - start your evo chamber once muta are off – upgrade overlord speed with next 150 gas. This is the time to drone up and make sure that you have the drones to facilitate 5/6 hatch hydra. To do that 42 drones are needed, with 6 on gas. Taking into account your 9-11mutalisk (18/22 supply respectively) and no more than 9 hydra- give you a supply count average of 29. 29+42= 71. 71 is when drone production should stop.
In summery once your muta are started-
5th hatch
evo chamber
+1 missile
overlord speed
hydra speed
drone saturation
Personally I like to get lurker upgrade some time after speed for a hydra/lurk build.
The above list should be your priority!
At this point OD style has now completed its build order, and 5 hatch hydra variation takes effect. Play a normal 5 hatch
Example of me playing against a computer to showcase the build order. I apologize if the BO was confusing, here is hoping that the replay makes up for it.
Part Three
OD style vs. Protoss
“Bold timing with clandestine intentions”
The current zerg vs. protoss trend is revolving around the use of Jaedongs 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra. This build was created and perfected in response to current protoss FE trends, specifically stargate first FE variations. Zerg vs protoss has evolved into a 'maximum macro' game style. By that i am merely trying to describe the way in which zerg desperately tries to max out 42 drones while achieving 5 hatch. The more economical zerg will forfeit early game pressure, and will only produce speedlings in response to protoss zealot. Protoss can get away in the early game and early mid with nothing more than 2/3 cannons and 1-2 zeals plus or minus the odd dragoon. All of this is to allow a very fast cybernetics core into a fast stargate.
Zerg on the other hand has been content in allowing protoss to feel comfortable in the early game, and instead decides to macro up as well. The zerg is primarily concerned with a fast lair to nullify the corsair harass and amassing 42 drones quickly. Zerg macro is treated like protoss or terran macro. Build X amount of workers and then switch over to unit production. This will garner the most effective economic growth, but I feel that one important aspect of zerg play is being overlooked.
Think about zerg play in a 3 hatch muta style. Zerg saves up larve from 3 hatch and can suddenly build 9-11 muta almost instantly. Compared to the other two races that must first produce a plethora of production buildings- zerg clearly has an interesting race defining mechanic. Why is this type of unit production not used more frequently? OD style attempts to use the idea of instantaneous muta pop, but use it in a different setting. OD style focuses on a ranged hydra timing attack against protoss.
The appearance of a hydra bust is negated with a few deterrents. The first is a quick lair after the hydra den, and the second is probably what makes this build work so well. A scouting probe can stay alive forever with only 2 lings chasing it- and because all of your hydra are built in one production cycle, P has no way to know if those eggs are hydra or drones.
By the time the hydra hatch, protoss will have to rush to cannon his natural- or in the case that he missed the production cycle, concede the game. The timing of this hydra pressure is just at the time protoss would look to add gateways. Every photon cannon costs 1 gateway.
When using this build it is important to remember that your first and second overlords are very important. Because you will have 9 range upgraded hydra out in the front of the protoss base, both of your lords can be protected from early game harassment. What this means is that scouting the protoss is much easier when you can keep your lords around the protoss base indefinitely. Once the hydra arrive try and take out the forge or gateway.
Use your overlords to scout his Nat defenses. With proper micro- hydra can be a real threat against cannons. If the protoss is late in building cannons, or has poorly placed them use this to your advantage. Keep the overlords over your hydra to deter any DT run bye's and keep a nice contain going. It is imperative that sacrificing your hydra should only be done if an opening is spotted.
If you can snipe the forge- that will be a HUGE asset to your muta. If the forge is gone, protoss will not be able to add cannons in his main! Keep this in mind when applying pressure.
Now that your hydra are in place keep the pressure on, but don't forget about the macro tasks at your nat. Muta should be coming out soon, and it is imperative that your 5th hatchery is planted, upgrades are completed and your drone saturation is complete. Moving back to your mutalisk force and light contain force should now be your primary goal. The hydra timing is such that protoss will want to start his gate timing as your hydra are arriving at his natural choke. Hydras force P to build cannons, and can take out that single gateway and possibly a forge.
Keep in mind that this will cause protoss macro to be delayed, and gate numbers will be significantly lower. Once the muta arrive at the protoss base look in the following three locations. The first is the natural mineral line, and second is the natural mineral line, and the third is his gates. It is imperative that your muta continue to harass protoss, and force more cannons. Forcing these cannons will delay his gateways further, and delay his third base significantly.
Back on the home front- once the post muta macro has been completed switch your hatchery production over to hydra and transition into 5 hatch hydra. This odd staggered teck changes will put protoss into a very uncomfortable position. archons are not effective at combating hydralisk, and high templar are not effective against muta. Because the protoss is going to be forced to protect his natural and main mineral lines, two choices must be made.
The first is the choice to build corsairs against your mutalisk, and use cannons and corsair to deter further harass. This choice will negate your muta harass, however doing so will cause protoss ground force to come even later, and become weaker. Overall this will result in a severely delayed 3rd, and allow you complete map control. The second choice is to use archons. While this will grant protection from muta along with cannons once again protoss runs into a problem. archons can be avoided by muta fairly effectively, and thusly- your muta harass can continue for awhile longer. However archons require 2 HT. HT are the biggest threat to your hydra force, and forcing excessive archons is going to be a great move for zerg. Mass hydra > archon zeal.
The entire point of this build is to delay protoss gate timings and allow zerg to have a superior unit production into the middle and late game. Once 5 hatches are up and running, this build transitions into 5 hatch hydra for the late game. I will not go further into this guide- because there are plenty of others explaining the 5 hatch hydra build and how to play this build in late game zvp.
Variations:
While I have found some success with using this build against 1 or 2 gate builds I am not too sure if it would be the best way to go. I feel that standard play would probably be a better choice. I do have some replays of this build used against gate way first strats, but I will leave it up to you if you think it's worth while.
Now back to what this build was really made to counter- FE protoss.
From an FE protoss has a few options and they are, stargate first or no stargate. This is really the only thing that needs to be taken account for. Because a no stargate FE build is going to mean you need to adapt. If you scout a no stargate first build, I would suggest not brining your hydra to his choke. +1 speed zeal is a killer if your hydra are left in the open. That is why I find it better to simply wait until your muta pop before moving out with the hydra.
However in a stargate first build- that is not going to be so much of a problem, and you should proceed as normal.
Please refer to the replay section for how OD deals with 1,2,3 gate and protoss cheese respectively.
Part Four
OD style vs Terran
“The death of 1 base mechanic play”
**I would like to preface this section of the guide by talking about OD vs terran for a moment. In my iccup run from C- to Cish I played few terran so the results are not as definitive as the protoss section. Most of the terran games were played on HBR and Destination. Maps that are common mechanic terran maps. OD style has not been tested against 1 rax FE or any type of bio play. While I concede that perhaps the hydra timing attack may work against 1 rax FE I have never attempted such a build. However it's use against 2 rax, or any sunken break build will put you at a severe disadvantage. So I do not suggest this build as a proper response.**
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else. OD style puts a stop to this. However to do so, a slight alteration in the early game build must be made.
9overlord – 9 scout – 12 hatch – 11 pool – 13 hatch – gas with next 50min – 1 pair of lings – drone till 18/18. do not build an overlord.
Once the extractor pops but 3 drones on gas, and build a hydra den at 50gas. Use the den to help block off the natural choke if fast factory is scouted. After the den is planted throw down a creep colony and then build your second overlord at 16/18 drone till 18/18 and continue the build as per usual.
Wait until your hydra pop- and make sure to watch for any 2 fact vult run bys. Vult run by's will come before your hydra pop if terran decides not to mine up the path on the way to your base. Be prepared for this. Scouting here is still key. While your range hydras will instantly stop any 2 port play, or fantasy drop ship play, the game is not over yet. Making use of the 9 hydra is the most important part of OD. Use the hydra as a way to deny his expansion attempts. If terran is still on 1 base play by the time your hydra are out- keep your hydra inside of your base, and protect your economy. Do not waste hydra attacking uphill on a 1 base terran. This is a great way to lose your hydra, and make a nice waste of 600 minerals. Instead, wait until your muta have popped and then move in for a han bang attack. Breaking the natural is very very possible.
Against any type of terran mech play over lord placing is going to be key. Your first overlord should be safely against a cliff near the natural choke of the terran. Your second overlord should be roaming the middle of the map, and your third overlord should be at your choke. MINES ARE BAD. However they do have a weakness. Range hydras on attack move command can kill mines before they explode. So provided you can get out of your natural with your hydras, and take an alternate route to the terran nat- all of your hydra should make it. So if terran has opted for a 2 fact or 1 fact vulture FE- use your hydra to deny his natural expansion.
Please take note of the OD vs Terran replays provided. While they are few- the few do show a few important things when battling mech play against terran. Most importantly split your hydra down both bridges when attacking on destination. I foolishly threw away my hydra in just such a game. As with the OD vs protoss guide OD vs terran transitions into standard zerg vs mechanic terran after the muta are off. One of the replays will show late game zerg vs terran, after a failed natural attack attempt.
Part Five
OD style replays
Opponents range from 3500-5000
“Proof of existence”
OD style vs Protoss
this first game is exactly what i want to happen. Even though i didn't snipe that forge, my muta end it. Not the best game to show late game or late mid transition.
This game is a good example of being a bit to anxious with the early hydra. However this game goes into the late game, and you can see where making all of those cannons really hurt the P. I end the game with superior unit count and a really sexy lurker egg block 
This game is a really good game imo. however i do make some really noob scouting mistakes that almost cost me the game lol. Another thing to note is my lurker teck was really late >< it should be right after hydra speed lol
So this game is OD vs a 2 gate build. I have some pretty embarrassing play- and forgot my lurkers again!!!! they come right after hydra speed- but i always forget lol
This game i snipe his forge, and then my muta come over to his base- and well that's the end of it lol if you can't build cannons muta hurt 
This game is picture perfect OD style. Everything that can go right does go right.
This game is a great example of how the idea of forcing cannons, means a terrible protoss macro.
this game is against a 3 gate zealot Protoss. I don't know how much this shows in the way of OD but meh....
This shows why maps with a weird nat are great for this build. Cannons don't wall very well on desti
This is punishing a toss with a failed cannon rush, and bad wall in.
Very nice game on BS. This P wasn't prepared for the Hydra and payed the price.
OD style vs Terran
[spoiler] This game is a good learning experience! Split your hydra group down both bridges on desti when attacking lol
HEY ZERG PLAYERS SICK OF 3 PORT CLOAK WRAITH? LOOK NO FURTHER THAN HERE!
some random pubbie game on east. Played while icup was down. I am not saying this is a gg at all lol
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Great guide for ZvP! I feel like versus mech you have to be more fluid after the first hydra pops, though, and you might need a sunken and a pair of lings for your ramp if you're drone whoring that hard versus T.
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Seems ok so far. There's a glaring weakness to heavy sair/dt play, which is a pretty common response to den before lair builds. You are either going to get harassed like crazy, or be forced to cede protoss a 3rd really quickly while getting your 4th denied.
ill edit when ive watched some reps. also, can you just make these a rep pack?
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I've been playing something similar to this vs. mech Terrans for a while now. It's cool to see this type of play working against Protoss as well. Great guide!
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I love the effort put into this and i hope i face this soon on IcCup
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great, now if only I could figure out how to counter bio....
seriously, IMO bio is like 10x harder to beat
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I like the idea and I see how it can work against protoss/mech terran, but I think this will get slaughtered by 1rax FE if he survives the first hydras/mutas properly. It's basically an allin against 1rax FE, and 2 bunkers and a few turrets should be gg. Awesome guide, I like your theories.
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Impressive!
Actually reminds me of when I was totally noob, and saw the protoss building cannons then going HAHA I GOT RANGE HYDRAS, I SNIPE YOUR GATEWAY!!
Then losing because I had one base.
Without trying this, I feel you would be playing slightly on the edge, until you get up to 3-4 saturated bases, but I really like how easily this can transition back to standard neo sauron play. The key to this seems to be abusing the zerg larve flexibility, I especially like being able to quickly build hydras, rush to mutas, then spawn a bunch of drones, very quickly and easily surpassing the protoss economy.
Have you tried this against sair reaver?
Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
Meanwhile, I love playing D to D+ mechers!
Well done Misrah!
Some minor stuff:
DT run bye's
Once the muta arrive at the protoss base look in the following three locations. The first is the natural mineral line, and second is the natural mineral line, and the third is his gates.
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Always enjoying to read about you latest experiment, Misrah
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On October 25 2009 14:15 Pokebunny wrote:
I like the idea and I see how it can work against protoss/mech terran, but I think this will get slaughtered by 1rax FE if he survives the first hydras/mutas properly. It's basically an allin against 1rax FE, and 2 bunkers and a few turrets should be gg. Awesome guide, I like your theories.
I address this poke- i think that i say in my guide, don't try this vs bio lol.
But hey thanks for your support ^^ and taking the time to read this thing lol
glad everyone is liking it so far. I can't wait for your replays and critique of the build (esp. sixghost!)
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On October 25 2009 14:31 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 14:15 Pokebunny wrote:
I like the idea and I see how it can work against protoss/mech terran, but I think this will get slaughtered by 1rax FE if he survives the first hydras/mutas properly. It's basically an allin against 1rax FE, and 2 bunkers and a few turrets should be gg. Awesome guide, I like your theories. I address this poke- i think that i say in my guide, don't try this vs bio lol. But hey thanks for your support ^^ and taking the time to read this thing lol glad everyone is liking it so far. I can't wait for your replays and critique of the build (esp. sixghost!)
Yeah I read that, but what I'm saying is that the build makes a couple unique turns and if you don't recognize the situation and adapt fast, you will be in trouble.
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fantastic guide, great read, i'd love to try it out when i get the chance
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On October 25 2009 14:50 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 14:31 Misrah wrote:On October 25 2009 14:15 Pokebunny wrote:
I like the idea and I see how it can work against protoss/mech terran, but I think this will get slaughtered by 1rax FE if he survives the first hydras/mutas properly. It's basically an allin against 1rax FE, and 2 bunkers and a few turrets should be gg. Awesome guide, I like your theories. I address this poke- i think that i say in my guide, don't try this vs bio lol. But hey thanks for your support ^^ and taking the time to read this thing lol glad everyone is liking it so far. I can't wait for your replays and critique of the build (esp. sixghost!) Yeah I read that, but what I'm saying is that the build makes a couple unique turns and if you don't recognize the situation and adapt fast, you will be in trouble.
The build starts with 12 hatch 11pool 13hatch with a 9scout, which is more than enough time to realize if you are facing mech or 1rax fe.
Anyway about the build, like I said before, I think you are really going to be in trouble vs a real sair/dt build. Your 9 hydra get to Ps nat right about the time their sair comes out, which means you have literally 0 defense vs the sair. And if that DT sneaks out, which it did a couple of times in the reps i've watched, you are going to take a big hit to your econ with the lost mining time. Luckily though that build is pretty rare on iccup these days.
vs most of the newer PvZ builds it seems pretty cool. Unless someone has seen this before, it's a huge mindfuck with all the tech switches. I think a really smart player will have some idea of what's going on if they manage to scout the lair. Also their sair will be able to scout your main in time to see the spire with enough time to get cannons up, but even so, it still seems pretty hard to react to.
I'd like to see a replay of how this build works vs sair/reaver, sair/dt, and that 7minute speedlot build. That build might give you problems too, there's going to be a 30 second window where legs is done before your mutas pop.
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extremely thorough read, i really love the effort you put into it
+ Show Spoiler +but dont further tip the ZvP balance!
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I'm confused, this ZvP build looks almost like an exact copy of your last ZvP guide except with a normal 3 hatch opening, yet when I suggested doing that in your last guide you said I was just completely missing the point and didn't even see it as worth your time to explain any further.
I mean I guess you added in the cute little 9 simultaneous hydras deal, but I don't really see how a P who scouts a hydra den and no lair is going to not have 4 cannons up in a comfortable amount of time.
Nice work nonetheless, I always like to see people doing something other than the generic and over-used 3 hatch spire.
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On October 25 2009 14:57 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 14:50 Pokebunny wrote:On October 25 2009 14:31 Misrah wrote:On October 25 2009 14:15 Pokebunny wrote:
I like the idea and I see how it can work against protoss/mech terran, but I think this will get slaughtered by 1rax FE if he survives the first hydras/mutas properly. It's basically an allin against 1rax FE, and 2 bunkers and a few turrets should be gg. Awesome guide, I like your theories. I address this poke- i think that i say in my guide, don't try this vs bio lol. But hey thanks for your support ^^ and taking the time to read this thing lol glad everyone is liking it so far. I can't wait for your replays and critique of the build (esp. sixghost!) Yeah I read that, but what I'm saying is that the build makes a couple unique turns and if you don't recognize the situation and adapt fast, you will be in trouble. The build starts with 12 hatch 11pool 13hatch with a 9scout, which is more than enough time to realize if you are facing mech or 1rax fe. Anyway about the build, like I said before, I think you are really going to be in trouble vs a real sair/dt build. Your 9 hydra get to Ps nat right about the time their sair comes out, which means you have literally 0 defense vs the sair. And if that DT sneaks out, which it did a couple of times in the reps i've watched, you are going to take a big hit to your econ with the lost mining time. Luckily though that build is pretty rare on iccup these days. vs most of the newer PvZ builds it seems pretty cool. Unless someone has seen this before, it's a huge mindfuck with all the tech switches. I think a really smart player will have some idea of what's going on if they manage to scout the lair. Also their sair will be able to scout your main in time to see the spire with enough time to get cannons up, but even so, it still seems pretty hard to react to. I'd like to see a replay of how this build works vs sair/reaver, sair/dt, and that 7minute speedlot build. That build might give you problems too, there's going to be a 30 second window where legs is done before your mutas pop.
While i not faced a true sair dt build yet- i would figure that if you scout it, couldn't you just build a few more hydras at your 3rd? or would that not be enough? or perhaps throw a sunken down and delay your 5th hatch?
And as for the speedlot build- i think that i have somewhere in the guide that keeping your hydras back behind your wall is probably going to be the best bet until the muta pop. but your right, speedlots is a nice soft counter to OD.
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It feels like the build is very very specific, and that missing a certain timing weakens it, and the mistakes can really build up (and be capitalized on by the opponent). Nevertheless, I love the idea of early game pressure with hydras, while still having a viable economy to back up later game plan.
Still, say P decides to put down a pylon to delay you and lets it finish ... 2 lings aren't going to do it. Is that a big factor? (Whenever a decent probe comes to delay my nat, I feel like my timings can be off by 5~10 secs.)
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On October 25 2009 15:30 slOosh wrote:
It feels like the build is very very specific, and that missing a certain timing weakens it, and the mistakes can really build up (and be capitalized on by the opponent). Nevertheless, I love the idea of early game pressure with hydras, while still having a viable economy to back up later game plan.
Still, say P decides to put down a pylon to delay you and lets it finish ... 2 lings aren't going to do it. Is that a big factor? (Whenever a decent probe comes to delay my nat, I feel like my timings can be off by 5~10 secs.)
Umm that happens with any build. >.<
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Just a small update- i played a terran today who went for a really fast siege push into my base. range hydra rocked it hard!! I think that this build might actually be really good vs any 1 base terran play! Checkout this rep it's a GG for sure.
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I just tried this build vs. a Protoss, and it worked perfectly. I think he was trying to go for a zealot/archon push, but I didn't save the replay so I can't check or upload it here.
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On October 26 2009 05:15 Misrah wrote:Just a small update- i played a terran today who went for a really fast siege push into my base. range hydra rocked it hard!! I think that this build might actually be really good vs any 1 base terran play! Checkout this rep it's a GG for sure.
Uh, that Terran sucked. So not really the sternest test for this build.
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Have you liquipedia'd this... I'm not quite sure if there is an appropriate section, but there should be. This is a great guide for an interesting build. Thanks
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why do you build the hydra den so early? i think the range upgrade finishes when you didnt even start your hydras. so why not delay it a bit for a bit better econ? something like 18ovi 18 den +1drone and range when u can afford it without drone delay...range is still ready a long time before you need it. or even 16ovi and den at 20 sup or something like that. i cannot see any disadvantages, but probably its not a big deal.
and i really like the build, finally i can punish bad p players fast without playing allin
great work!
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when I saw the thread title, I knew you were the author lol
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I watched a few of the replays and I can't say I was too impressed... most of the players completely overreacted and built like 7-8 cannons at their naturals when they saw the hydras (I only watched the ZvPs). When that happens I'm not even sure going mutas is the proper follow-up as it's kind of an unnecessarily risky move (1 storm, 1 archon + shield battery means a lot of wasted money for you). I think in that situation you'd be much better off just grabbing a fourth gas and teching to lurkers...
I do like the idea though, I'm a big fan of aggressive openings! It kind of reminds me of Luxury's 9 pool speedlings build which has worked well for me in the past... basically it's speedlings >>> 3 hatches >>> 11 mutas asap. It forces your Toss opponent to create cannons and possible pull probes just like in your build, but the mutas come out faster/more numerous as it obviously saves on gas. Perhaps you should consider opening with speedlings? I realize that your build is very gas tight but I just can't imagine this working at the C level tbh. Your opponent is going to see the hydras coming 100% of the time so basically you're just committing yourself to a failed hydra bust every game... or let me rephrase... this build kind of seems like a compromise between a hydra bust and 5 hatch hydra, it's a really middle of the road build. The hydras will in all probability do little damage as your opponent is guaranteed to scout them so you have to rely on the mutas to do damage... but the mutas are late and not so numerous... and on the other hand your economy isn't so good... IMO the build just really doesn't force the Toss to do much of anything... it's not forcing the Toss to look for a 3rd gas and it's not putting a whole lot of pressure on the Toss's natural and main. So I dunno, those are just my thoughts, don't be discouraged!
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On October 26 2009 06:54 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 05:15 Misrah wrote:Just a small update- i played a terran today who went for a really fast siege push into my base. range hydra rocked it hard!! I think that this build might actually be really good vs any 1 base terran play! Checkout this rep it's a GG for sure. Uh, that Terran sucked. So not really the sternest test for this build.
meh he was just C- so i don't know how good he really was my bad. Most of the protoss games are at C level. The build was really not created to zvt. I am just testing it when i get the chance. Considering that most of my games are P or bio T these days for some reason lol i apologize for posting a sub standard replay. however against 3 port wraith this build seems to strike a critical timing in the terran build, so i figured that i might get lucky with it- and just want tot try testing it with other T builds.
On October 26 2009 07:03 Werezerg wrote:why do you build the hydra den so early? i think the range upgrade finishes when you didnt even start your hydras. so why not delay it a bit for a bit better econ? something like 18ovi 18 den +1drone and range when u can afford it without drone delay...range is still ready a long time before you need it. or even 16ovi and den at 20 sup or something like that. i cannot see any disadvantages, but probably its not a big deal. and i really like the build, finally i can punish bad p players fast without playing allin great work!
The upgrade for range finishes at the time of the 9 hydra pop. all of the replays show this. the den is at a perfect timing with the current build.
On October 26 2009 07:17 DustBowl wrote:
I watched a few of the replays and I can't say I was too impressed... most of the players completely overreacted and built like 7-8 cannons at their naturals when they saw the hydras (I only watched the ZvPs). When that happens I'm not even sure going mutas is the proper follow-up as it's kind of an unnecessarily risky move (1 storm, 1 archon + shield battery means a lot of wasted money for you). I think in that situation you'd be much better off just grabbing a fourth gas and teching to lurkers...
I do like the idea though, I'm a big fan of aggressive openings! It kind of reminds me of Luxury's 9 pool speedlings build which has worked well for me in the past... basically it's speedlings >>> 3 hatches >>> 11 mutas asap. It forces your Toss opponent to create cannons and possible pull probes just like in your build, but the mutas come out faster/more numerous as it obviously saves on gas. Perhaps you should consider opening with speedlings? I realize that your build is very gas tight but I just can't imagine this working at the C level tbh. Your opponent is going to see the hydras coming 100% of the time so basically you're just committing yourself to a failed hydra bust every game... or let me rephrase... this build kind of seems like a compromise between a hydra bust and 5 hatch hydra, it's a really middle of the road build. The hydras will in all probability do little damage as your opponent is guaranteed to scout them so you have to rely on the mutas to do damage... but the mutas are late and not so numerous... and on the other hand your economy isn't so good... IMO the build just really doesn't force the Toss to do much of anything... it's not forcing the Toss to look for a 3rd gas and it's not putting a whole lot of pressure on the Toss's natural and main. So I dunno, those are just my thoughts, don't be discouraged!
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic.
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On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic.
I WAS trying to be relevant... and my advice was: consider a 9 pool speedlings opening. In my experience there's really no point in going for an aggressive Zerg opening like this if your opponent knows it's coming, as well as the exact number of hydras that are coming.... You have nothing to kill the Toss's initial scouting probe with until all 9 hydras pop, and let's not forget that these hydras have range and no speed so they're going to be moving across the map very slowing, giving the Toss enough time to prepare. Furthermore, if you're just extremely lucky and manage to kill the scouting probe with drones (which is what happened in one of the replays I watched) you're opponent would have to be really arrogant not to send another scouting probe... Now, like I said before, I realize that this build is already gas heavy so 100 gas going to speed is a lot to spare, but it would seem to me that if you could somehow figure out a way to incorporate it into your build it would make it much stronger. Perhaps you could move with only 6 hydras and a dozen lings but of course I haven't tested any of this. If your goal is just to snipe the forge or gateway in front of the Toss's base and/or force cannons with the initial hydra attack though I don't see why this wouldn't work. Also, remember that by opening this way your Toss opponent is effectively blind so the possibility of just poking your head in with the lings and pumping hydras accordingly or simply running by is always an option.
I'm sorry if my previous post or even this one sounds arrogant or condescending, I'm not the best at critiquing the tone of my own posts! Like I said before though, I'm a fan of aggressive openings like this and that's why I posted earlier... I just thought I'd offer you my opinion.
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so holy shit TL i just played some one from TL (SHOUT OUT TO YOU!!!!) a protoss player- who knew the build. This replay is an insane late game craziness PVZ extravaganza. this stale mate game is characterized by me failing at dodging storms, and getting rolled. Thank god for that macro. for the love of all things good an decent
watch this game
1 hour of pvz madness
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The upgrade for range finishes at the time of the 9 hydra pop. all of the replays show this. the den is at a perfect timing with the current build.
Range should finish when your hydras arrive at their base not when they hatch...
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On October 26 2009 09:18 Misrah wrote:so holy shit TL i just played some one from TL (SHOUT OUT TO YOU!!!!) a protoss player- who knew the build. This replay is an insane late game craziness PVZ extravaganza. this stale mate game is characterized by me failing at dodging storms, and getting rolled. Thank god for that macro. for the love of all things good an decent watch this game1 hour of pvz madness
1 hour of pvz boredom. You guys didn't do anything for 40 minutes except mine the map out. Why no defiler tech?!
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defilers are for pussies lol!
or i just didn't think about it......... lol plaguu would have been helpful
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This seems to be a build that works great against low level players who don't know how to react when they scout something but not so good against mid to high level players with a head on their shoulders.
All the timings in this builds are later than their respective optimal rush builds and you have nothing that limits scouting what so ever. Defending the hydra attack would not be hard if scouted seeing as how you don't even have speed on them. Once fended off the protoss (don't try this vs a competent terran) will proceed to scout your late muta tech and your low drone count and realise another all in attack is coming. When he safely defends this with corsairs and cannons he will proceed to keep pressuring you into making units instead of drones, he will stay on 2 bases and mass gates and your poor economy will get you run over eventually.
This build basically puts economy in the pooper for slow timings and mind tricks that only work on low level players or players with a bad strategical understanding.
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On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft
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This actually looks pretty interesting. I'll give it a shot :d
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Why not speed hydras instead?
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On October 26 2009 12:26 StarBrift wrote:
This seems to be a build that works great against low level players who don't know how to react when they scout something but not so good against mid to high level players with a head on their shoulders.
All the timings in this builds are later than their respective optimal rush builds and you have nothing that limits scouting what so ever. Defending the hydra attack would not be hard if scouted seeing as how you don't even have speed on them. Once fended off the protoss (don't try this vs a competent terran) will proceed to scout your late muta tech and your low drone count and realise another all in attack is coming. When he safely defends this with corsairs and cannons he will proceed to keep pressuring you into making units instead of drones, he will stay on 2 bases and mass gates and your poor economy will get you run over eventually.
This build basically puts economy in the pooper for slow timings and mind tricks that only work on low level players or players with a bad strategical understanding.
ya..... im sorry that not everyone is an A+ player like you. I guess that C opponents are really that bad? What could i possibly be thinking trying to teck switch against someone who clearly would know the proper response to what ever i do just by flying a sair through my base.
Hmm going by your logic- any build is pointless! Because hey lets face it, every build has a weakness. but considering that you have never played against this build (i don't even think that you play z or p) nor have you watched any of the reps, you know what you are talking about. I like how i spend weeks testing this- and it takes you 5 min to write it off lol
Also my economy isn't injured that terribly- because if these were really all in attacks, why is the game going to the late game? 15-20 min games are not failed all in. But hey what am i talking about. even when i played this build against some one who read this thread- the game went into late game. so wait- does that mean, that no matter if you already know the build, you still have to react to it? and that just maybe its effective?
Clearly reading my guide didnt occur to you because it's posts like these that really just annoy me. Thanks so much all high and mighty A+ player! clearly i should never play starcraft against you because you will understand everything that i am doing and have the perfect counter. Sweet you countered my build on paper awesome.
my last question is: if you can create perfect counters to everything with limited scouting information-
your god! when are you winning your first OSL???
On October 26 2009 14:19 TimmyMac wrote:
Why not speed hydras instead?
because i want the hydra range to be able to snipe cannons, forge and gate. HBR is a pretty easy map to cover your gate and forge with cannons. but on maps like desti, python, luna ext it gets much much harder to stop me from sniping those with out building tons of cannon.
edit: missed this
On October 26 2009 07:51 DustBowl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic. I WAS trying to be relevant... and my advice was: consider a 9 pool speedlings opening. In my experience there's really no point in going for an aggressive Zerg opening like this if your opponent knows it's coming, as well as the exact number of hydras that are coming.... You have nothing to kill the Toss's initial scouting probe with until all 9 hydras pop, and let's not forget that these hydras have range and no speed so they're going to be moving across the map very slowing, giving the Toss enough time to prepare. Furthermore, if you're just extremely lucky and manage to kill the scouting probe with drones (which is what happened in one of the replays I watched) you're opponent would have to be really arrogant not to send another scouting probe... Now, like I said before, I realize that this build is already gas heavy so 100 gas going to speed is a lot to spare, but it would seem to me that if you could somehow figure out a way to incorporate it into your build it would make it much stronger. Perhaps you could move with only 6 hydras and a dozen lings but of course I haven't tested any of this. If your goal is just to snipe the forge or gateway in front of the Toss's base and/or force cannons with the initial hydra attack though I don't see why this wouldn't work. Also, remember that by opening this way your Toss opponent is effectively blind so the possibility of just poking your head in with the lings and pumping hydras accordingly or simply running by is always an option. I'm sorry if my previous post or even this one sounds arrogant or condescending, I'm not the best at critiquing the tone of my own posts! Like I said before though, I'm a fan of aggressive openings like this and that's why I posted earlier... I just thought I'd offer you my opinion.
A 9 pool speedling build would put your economy and teck so far behind that i really don't know if it's viable. however i am willing to try this. i will see how this turns out at C level and hopefully can find some better success. my only worry would be- getting hydra out too late to fight that sair, because spire timing is going to be late but i have yet to try it. this is an idea that i can work with. thanks for this i appreciate it immensely (honestly i never would have thought of this lol) considering that this is the first suggestion- it's time to test it out
and about your previous post- i jumped on you. no doubt about that. Clearly that wasn't your intent. my poor reading skills are probably the culprit lol. Hope that you will forgive me 
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On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
The upgrade for range finishes at the time of the 9 hydra pop. all of the replays show this. the den is at a perfect timing with the current build.
i just rewatched 2 reps and u are still wrong. the range finishes when u just START your hyds, it is still more than 1 minute till they are at the opponents base! so you could delay your hyd den + range up for this whole minute.
i may have just a few posts here but i have eyes in my head...
edit: just tested a bit, u can even make lair before hyd den. so u will have a bit better eco, faster lair and no disadvantages in my eyes. its even harder to read for the toss. i am still testing the timings a bit, but something like this should be fine:
3 hatch standard
15 gas (no need for earlier gas, u will have enough for the 9 hyds)
16 ovi
20 drones +lair
23 hyd den + ovi
range when den is finished
24 ovi
24 2. gas (earlier so u get the lost gas back for mutas if necessary?!?)
drones till about 27
then 9 hyds.
range will be easily ready before hyds arrive at toss base. and hyds should not be later. i just tested this bo 1 time and forgot the 1 ovi u need more, so i will test it later again and post replay. this timings are perhaps not perfect yet, dont have enough time now. but really i cannot see any disadvantages...u can even build the mutas a bit earlier! and maybe toss thinks u are going for fast lurker stuff.
edit2: ok i tested it now, it just worked out like yours, maybe 1 drone more, nothing significant. only toss could missinterprete the faster lair with later hyd den as lurker tech. and there would be the additional possibility to delay the hyds a little bit (few seconds) for a few more drones because of the additional overlord. well nothing great :D
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I watched a few reps and if I noticed after all the muta pop you have like ~400 minerals in the bank, and no larvae, which is when you expand. I would just recommend plopping down another hatch as you're waiting for the round of ovies to pop while spire is building. Especially HBR, due to how faaar the usual 4th is.
Forgetting about the metagame analysis 'how player X would react, player Y is a noob' this plays out like 5hatch with a twist. Few hydras early to fuck with your opponents head, and then take advantage of that with mutas. I like tech switching and I like this build. Will try against D+ tomorrow.
edit: as in the post above, some early game stuff could be tweaked depending on how you want to play it / what you want to let P see
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On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft
Lol? That was a joke, right?
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On October 26 2009 17:16 Leg[end] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft Lol? That was a joke, right?
TvZ has always been statistically in favor of terran, in alot of cases, moreso than ZvP.. it's just people don't complain like a bitch about it compared to PvZ.
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On October 26 2009 17:23 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 17:16 Leg[end] wrote:On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft Lol? That was a joke, right? TvZ has always been statistically in favor of terran, in alot of cases, moreso than ZvP.. it's just people don't complain like a bitch about it compared to PvZ.
TvZ is not imbalanced >_<
I'm a zerg, but I can't bring myself to call TvZ imba.
Show me these statistics...
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I like this build, it seems like zerg finally has something to mindfuck opponents. However I agree with trying to make it slightly more economical. Getting the lair first makes it look like lurkers then you can turn it into a hydra bust/switch to late game.
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i do like this build...
your overall strategy of the build is a tweener between heavy econ build like the current 5 hat hydra and 3 hatch hydra bust builds.
and it works well on lower levels of players that doesn't react to it well or doesn't scout it well. it is a little cheesy in that aspect but its a pretty good build for lower level players. but you rely on your opponent making mistakes like overreacting and not defending properly etc etc.
and the little quirks like sniping protoss' gate or forge is good. though, i didn't read the your response but there was a question about delaying the hydra range upgrade so they finish when your hydras pop or something. i mean its 150 gas you can probably spend on a faster lair maybe...
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hey Misrah I love your guides ^^ You r a very creative player : )
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Ok so another update- here is what the OD dustbowl variation is looking like so far. I tried to go 9 pool speed into OD style and that worked out fine. However going 9 pool and then trying to go lair before den- is just not possible. The 9 pool build off the normal BO works fine. and may even perhaps be a better opening than my original. The 8 speedling 9 range hydra attack could be substantially more effective than my original! i just need to go out and play test this.
rep of my vs a computer to show relative timings-
The next game is lair before den and relative timings-
as you can see from the replay- hydra are out at about the same time. However the muta are going to be rather small in number. I could only get 7 by the time that the spire popped. Doing so ment that i had to cut drones, and really i was at 35/35 when i had to make lords or only 25 drones mining when i had to make muta. It seems to me that werezerg variation of OD is a hyper aggressive play, and is in fact not the most economical. However i am willing to try both. I like werezerg OD variation because of the fact that you will have your muta out at a normal timing! the only problem is it will only be 7 muta. But i can't tell yet- have to wait until i play test this!
Anyone reading this thread- please try these three ways of doing the build! post reps, and give comments!
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On October 26 2009 17:35 Leg[end] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 17:23 Camlito wrote:On October 26 2009 17:16 Leg[end] wrote:On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft Lol? That was a joke, right? TvZ has always been statistically in favor of terran, in alot of cases, moreso than ZvP.. it's just people don't complain like a bitch about it compared to PvZ. TvZ is not imbalanced >_< I'm a zerg, but I can't bring myself to call TvZ imba. Show me these statistics...
You know there's something called TLPD on this site?
Current Proleague season:
TvZ: 15-6 (71.4%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 13-7 (65%) [ Games ]
'08-'09 Proleague:
TvZ: 122-101 (54.7%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 112-94 (54.4%) [ Games ]
'08 Proleague:
TvZ: 35-21 (62.5%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 30-32 (48.4%) [ Games ]
'07 Proleague round 2:
TvZ: 45-40 (52.9%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 37-41 (47.4%) [ Games ]
'07 Proleague round 1:
TvZ: 46-38 (54.8%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 37-31 (54.4%) [ Games ]
I think that's enough.
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Katowice25012 Posts
wow i got seriously beaten on that one. I AM GOING TO LEAVE MINE HERE AS WELL.
On October 26 2009 17:35 Leg[end] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 17:23 Camlito wrote:On October 26 2009 17:16 Leg[end] wrote:On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft Lol? That was a joke, right? TvZ has always been statistically in favor of terran, in alot of cases, moreso than ZvP.. it's just people don't complain like a bitch about it compared to PvZ. TvZ is not imbalanced >_< I'm a zerg, but I can't bring myself to call TvZ imba. Show me these statistics...
It just so happens that I have this. This is a chart that shows the overall TvZ breakdown only for proleagues since 2004. TvZ at 54% is about 1-2% higher than zvp/pvt are so its the matchup furthest away from 50% wins for each race. In particular note how few instances there are where Z>T in these samples. It looks like terran is nearly guaranteed to have a slight edge on zerg whereas in these same numbers for the other matchups it goes back and forth between races depending on maps/players/what have you.
![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/pre0910/TvZPL.png)
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On October 26 2009 12:30 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2009 12:05 Misrah wrote:
The current meta game of zerg vs terran has become the most infuriating for me. Every time I play a terran I never enjoy the mindset. Zerg is constantly on the defensive. Proxy rax into bunker rush are common, proxy factory, 2 port wraith, wachanic, biomech, fantasy style and all of the other variations give me a head ache as a zerg player. I don't like having to scout everywhere, and everything. I don't like playing on the back foot, I don't like having to deal with 2 fact speed vults. I hate having to shit my pants in the early game of any current zerg vs terran. The fear of unknown teck routs and surprise vulture drops is really not good for my skin.
It feels to me as if terran is perfectly comfortable behind a wall with 5-6 marines. From this 'untouchable' position terran can dictate the pace of the game. Zerg is forced into a defensive position, and must be constantly on the look out for teck changes, and everything else.
Welcome to TvZ. The most imba matchup in Starcraft
GOD, quit whining, it's pretty damn balanced.
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On October 26 2009 14:44 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 12:26 StarBrift wrote:
This seems to be a build that works great against low level players who don't know how to react when they scout something but not so good against mid to high level players with a head on their shoulders.
All the timings in this builds are later than their respective optimal rush builds and you have nothing that limits scouting what so ever. Defending the hydra attack would not be hard if scouted seeing as how you don't even have speed on them. Once fended off the protoss (don't try this vs a competent terran) will proceed to scout your late muta tech and your low drone count and realise another all in attack is coming. When he safely defends this with corsairs and cannons he will proceed to keep pressuring you into making units instead of drones, he will stay on 2 bases and mass gates and your poor economy will get you run over eventually.
This build basically puts economy in the pooper for slow timings and mind tricks that only work on low level players or players with a bad strategical understanding. ya..... im sorry that not everyone is an A+ player like you. I guess that C opponents are really that bad? What could i possibly be thinking trying to teck switch against someone who clearly would know the proper response to what ever i do just by flying a sair through my base. Hmm going by your logic- any build is pointless! Because hey lets face it, every build has a weakness. but considering that you have never played against this build (i don't even think that you play z or p) nor have you watched any of the reps, you know what you are talking about. I like how i spend weeks testing this- and it takes you 5 min to write it off lol Also my economy isn't injured that terribly- because if these were really all in attacks, why is the game going to the late game? 15-20 min games are not failed all in. But hey what am i talking about. even when i played this build against some one who read this thread- the game went into late game. so wait- does that mean, that no matter if you already know the build, you still have to react to it? and that just maybe its effective? Clearly reading my guide didnt occur to you because it's posts like these that really just annoy me. Thanks so much all high and mighty A+ player! clearly i should never play starcraft against you because you will understand everything that i am doing and have the perfect counter. Sweet you countered my build on paper awesome. my last question is: if you can create perfect counters to everything with limited scouting information- your god! when are you winning your first OSL??? because i want the hydra range to be able to snipe cannons, forge and gate. HBR is a pretty easy map to cover your gate and forge with cannons. but on maps like desti, python, luna ext it gets much much harder to stop me from sniping those with out building tons of cannon. edit: missed this Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 07:51 DustBowl wrote:On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic. I WAS trying to be relevant... and my advice was: consider a 9 pool speedlings opening. In my experience there's really no point in going for an aggressive Zerg opening like this if your opponent knows it's coming, as well as the exact number of hydras that are coming.... You have nothing to kill the Toss's initial scouting probe with until all 9 hydras pop, and let's not forget that these hydras have range and no speed so they're going to be moving across the map very slowing, giving the Toss enough time to prepare. Furthermore, if you're just extremely lucky and manage to kill the scouting probe with drones (which is what happened in one of the replays I watched) you're opponent would have to be really arrogant not to send another scouting probe... Now, like I said before, I realize that this build is already gas heavy so 100 gas going to speed is a lot to spare, but it would seem to me that if you could somehow figure out a way to incorporate it into your build it would make it much stronger. Perhaps you could move with only 6 hydras and a dozen lings but of course I haven't tested any of this. If your goal is just to snipe the forge or gateway in front of the Toss's base and/or force cannons with the initial hydra attack though I don't see why this wouldn't work. Also, remember that by opening this way your Toss opponent is effectively blind so the possibility of just poking your head in with the lings and pumping hydras accordingly or simply running by is always an option. I'm sorry if my previous post or even this one sounds arrogant or condescending, I'm not the best at critiquing the tone of my own posts! Like I said before though, I'm a fan of aggressive openings like this and that's why I posted earlier... I just thought I'd offer you my opinion. A 9 pool speedling build would put your economy and teck so far behind that i really don't know if it's viable. however i am willing to try this. i will see how this turns out at C level and hopefully can find some better success. my only worry would be- getting hydra out too late to fight that sair, because spire timing is going to be late but i have yet to try it. this is an idea that i can work with. thanks for this i appreciate it immensely (honestly i never would have thought of this lol) considering that this is the first suggestion- it's time to test it out and about your previous post- i jumped on you. no doubt about that. Clearly that wasn't your intent. my poor reading skills are probably the culprit lol. Hope that you will forgive me
In all honesty I thought this build was really bad and your attempt to start a new trend with it in the metagame pathetic but for the simple reason of you putting so much time into it I didn't mention that. Now that you insulted me personally though I don't feel the need to spare your feelings anymore.
In fact I do also play at C with both protoss and terran. My zerg off racing has so far let me get to C- high but I'm sure I could get C if I mass gamed. The opponents I play usually scout and adapt better but maybe that's because I usually play korean hours.
I watched 4 of the replays that you entitled to be the best of the bunch, showcasing the build if you will. In all those replays the protoss either died his probe scout (to two lings) or left the base before your hydras pop. They then followed up with either not even making a corsair or not using it to scout. The one who did scout your main didn't understand that a spire, larvae at every hatch, 2 gas and no drones means a muta all in. Neither one of the players anticipated your attacks even half as well as they would if they had scouted and read you properly.
As to why your build is really bad:
A build defined as strong because it has strong elements in it. Those elements usually consists of good economics, good timings, good transitions and an element of surprise. Your builds ONLY has the element of surprise. That's 1 out of 4. Let me elaborate.
The build obviously has horrible economics since you had about 3 drones at third, 5 at nat and 10 in main when his corsair popped. Doing such a low econ build means you have to deal damage to catch up. You deal no damage and he macroes well, you lose the game. Period.
The timings of this build are slower than any good builds counterparts. The only part of the build that has alot of units fast is the initial hydras but if he has a probe outside your base and spots them he WILL be safe because you don't have speed. The mutas are alot later than both 2 hatch (obviously) and 3 hatch mutas which means that protoss can have alot of corsairs and cannons if he just scouts well.
Which leads me to transitions. Once protoss defends this attack you will have to drone up heavily. This is the timing in the game where you'll want to produce units to counter his impending midgame attack which is of course delayed a bit but still as strong if not stronger. If the protoss is smart he will have made more corsairs and scouted whether you drones or kept producing units. He will have air superiority and a better economy. If you made units he will stay in his base until the blob of death is complete and then run you over. If you keep droning up he will be able to attack or feign attacks, forcing you to produce units. The 700-900 gas and mins you spent on mutas will be wasted in the midgame when he has mass corsairs with his army. At best you can transition into being slightly behind in economy and that's if alot of things work out like you want them to.
The element of surprise is obviously high in this build if the protoss assumes that you are committing to the hydras and isn't using his corsair to scout. He will most likely think you're transitioning into a lurker contain at his nat (which imo would be better). But the entire element of surprise is based on the assumption that he is a worse player than you.
Lets face it. You were the superior player in most of those replays. Your opponents froze up and stopped multitasking as soon as they saw something out of the norm which made you get a huge advantage. If you play a smart player with decent macro I'm sure you also would feel that this build isn't as strong as you make it out to be.
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do i smell the start of theorycraft deteriorating into trash talk and then into GRUDGE MATCH?!?!
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Just watched that replay.
Nice rock papper scissors game. :3
I'll try out this strat.
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StarBrift's reasoning is sound to me.
Despite that, the guide is well written and well structured. the best I read of you yet, Misrah.
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i dont know anything about zvp or the viability of this new build but just want to say i support starbrift. i feel like misrah really gets off on posting all these new builds and stuff and tbh it kind of annoys me. plus, i pwned him tvz once on python and he freaked out when i didnt gg like 2 seconds after he typed it. kinda made me lol.
Edit: MIsrah, im being a douchebag by calling you out so directly and from behind a keyboard but i do think you should be more humble when you post these builds and consider the possibility that these builds might not be as strong as you would think they are. Don't patronize people if they don't like your build or think of it as highly as you do - it annoys the fuck outta me and probably other people reading this thread.
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On October 29 2009 08:04 blackyosh1 wrote:
i dont know anything about zvp or the viability of this new build but just want to say i support starbrift. i feel like misrah really gets off on posting all these new builds and stuff and tbh it kind of annoys me. plus, i pwned him tvz once on python and he freaked out when i didnt gg like 2 seconds after he typed it. kinda made me lol.
great post
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On October 27 2009 06:27 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 14:44 Misrah wrote:On October 26 2009 12:26 StarBrift wrote:
This seems to be a build that works great against low level players who don't know how to react when they scout something but not so good against mid to high level players with a head on their shoulders.
All the timings in this builds are later than their respective optimal rush builds and you have nothing that limits scouting what so ever. Defending the hydra attack would not be hard if scouted seeing as how you don't even have speed on them. Once fended off the protoss (don't try this vs a competent terran) will proceed to scout your late muta tech and your low drone count and realise another all in attack is coming. When he safely defends this with corsairs and cannons he will proceed to keep pressuring you into making units instead of drones, he will stay on 2 bases and mass gates and your poor economy will get you run over eventually.
This build basically puts economy in the pooper for slow timings and mind tricks that only work on low level players or players with a bad strategical understanding. ya..... im sorry that not everyone is an A+ player like you. I guess that C opponents are really that bad? What could i possibly be thinking trying to teck switch against someone who clearly would know the proper response to what ever i do just by flying a sair through my base. Hmm going by your logic- any build is pointless! Because hey lets face it, every build has a weakness. but considering that you have never played against this build (i don't even think that you play z or p) nor have you watched any of the reps, you know what you are talking about. I like how i spend weeks testing this- and it takes you 5 min to write it off lol Also my economy isn't injured that terribly- because if these were really all in attacks, why is the game going to the late game? 15-20 min games are not failed all in. But hey what am i talking about. even when i played this build against some one who read this thread- the game went into late game. so wait- does that mean, that no matter if you already know the build, you still have to react to it? and that just maybe its effective? Clearly reading my guide didnt occur to you because it's posts like these that really just annoy me. Thanks so much all high and mighty A+ player! clearly i should never play starcraft against you because you will understand everything that i am doing and have the perfect counter. Sweet you countered my build on paper awesome. my last question is: if you can create perfect counters to everything with limited scouting information- your god! when are you winning your first OSL??? On October 26 2009 14:19 TimmyMac wrote:
Why not speed hydras instead? because i want the hydra range to be able to snipe cannons, forge and gate. HBR is a pretty easy map to cover your gate and forge with cannons. but on maps like desti, python, luna ext it gets much much harder to stop me from sniping those with out building tons of cannon. edit: missed this On October 26 2009 07:51 DustBowl wrote:On October 26 2009 07:26 Misrah wrote:
suffice it to say that you are wrong, and like i have stated before these games are at a C level. Contrary to what you may think- people don't have a godly game sense like the pros, or A+ players like yourself. Of course i think that i said this build is not perfect, and i also thought that i prefaced my guide with what i expected as far as post content goes. This post does nothing to help me, nor have you posted a replay or any insight at all. so please do me a favor and keep this on topic. I WAS trying to be relevant... and my advice was: consider a 9 pool speedlings opening. In my experience there's really no point in going for an aggressive Zerg opening like this if your opponent knows it's coming, as well as the exact number of hydras that are coming.... You have nothing to kill the Toss's initial scouting probe with until all 9 hydras pop, and let's not forget that these hydras have range and no speed so they're going to be moving across the map very slowing, giving the Toss enough time to prepare. Furthermore, if you're just extremely lucky and manage to kill the scouting probe with drones (which is what happened in one of the replays I watched) you're opponent would have to be really arrogant not to send another scouting probe... Now, like I said before, I realize that this build is already gas heavy so 100 gas going to speed is a lot to spare, but it would seem to me that if you could somehow figure out a way to incorporate it into your build it would make it much stronger. Perhaps you could move with only 6 hydras and a dozen lings but of course I haven't tested any of this. If your goal is just to snipe the forge or gateway in front of the Toss's base and/or force cannons with the initial hydra attack though I don't see why this wouldn't work. Also, remember that by opening this way your Toss opponent is effectively blind so the possibility of just poking your head in with the lings and pumping hydras accordingly or simply running by is always an option. I'm sorry if my previous post or even this one sounds arrogant or condescending, I'm not the best at critiquing the tone of my own posts! Like I said before though, I'm a fan of aggressive openings like this and that's why I posted earlier... I just thought I'd offer you my opinion. A 9 pool speedling build would put your economy and teck so far behind that i really don't know if it's viable. however i am willing to try this. i will see how this turns out at C level and hopefully can find some better success. my only worry would be- getting hydra out too late to fight that sair, because spire timing is going to be late but i have yet to try it. this is an idea that i can work with. thanks for this i appreciate it immensely (honestly i never would have thought of this lol) considering that this is the first suggestion- it's time to test it out and about your previous post- i jumped on you. no doubt about that. Clearly that wasn't your intent. my poor reading skills are probably the culprit lol. Hope that you will forgive me In all honesty I thought this build was really bad and your attempt to start a new trend with it in the metagame pathetic but for the simple reason of you putting so much time into it I didn't mention that. Now that you insulted me personally though I don't feel the need to spare your feelings anymore. In fact I do also play at C with both protoss and terran. My zerg off racing has so far let me get to C- high but I'm sure I could get C if I mass gamed. The opponents I play usually scout and adapt better but maybe that's because I usually play korean hours. I watched 4 of the replays that you entitled to be the best of the bunch, showcasing the build if you will. In all those replays the protoss either died his probe scout (to two lings) or left the base before your hydras pop. They then followed up with either not even making a corsair or not using it to scout. The one who did scout your main didn't understand that a spire, larvae at every hatch, 2 gas and no drones means a muta all in. Neither one of the players anticipated your attacks even half as well as they would if they had scouted and read you properly. As to why your build is really bad: A build defined as strong because it has strong elements in it. Those elements usually consists of good economics, good timings, good transitions and an element of surprise. Your builds ONLY has the element of surprise. That's 1 out of 4. Let me elaborate. The build obviously has horrible economics since you had about 3 drones at third, 5 at nat and 10 in main when his corsair popped. Doing such a low econ build means you have to deal damage to catch up. You deal no damage and he macroes well, you lose the game. Period. The timings of this build are slower than any good builds counterparts. The only part of the build that has alot of units fast is the initial hydras but if he has a probe outside your base and spots them he WILL be safe because you don't have speed. The mutas are alot later than both 2 hatch (obviously) and 3 hatch mutas which means that protoss can have alot of corsairs and cannons if he just scouts well. Which leads me to transitions. Once protoss defends this attack you will have to drone up heavily. This is the timing in the game where you'll want to produce units to counter his impending midgame attack which is of course delayed a bit but still as strong if not stronger. If the protoss is smart he will have made more corsairs and scouted whether you drones or kept producing units. He will have air superiority and a better economy. If you made units he will stay in his base until the blob of death is complete and then run you over. If you keep droning up he will be able to attack or feign attacks, forcing you to produce units. The 700-900 gas and mins you spent on mutas will be wasted in the midgame when he has mass corsairs with his army. At best you can transition into being slightly behind in economy and that's if alot of things work out like you want them to. The element of surprise is obviously high in this build if the protoss assumes that you are committing to the hydras and isn't using his corsair to scout. He will most likely think you're transitioning into a lurker contain at his nat (which imo would be better). But the entire element of surprise is based on the assumption that he is a worse player than you. Lets face it. You were the superior player in most of those replays. Your opponents froze up and stopped multitasking as soon as they saw something out of the norm which made you get a huge advantage. If you play a smart player with decent macro I'm sure you also would feel that this build isn't as strong as you make it out to be. I am going to have to agree with him, but I do applaud the effort you put into your strategy guide.
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On October 29 2009 08:04 blackyosh1 wrote:
i dont know anything about zvp or the viability of this new build but just want to say i support starbrift. i feel like misrah really gets off on posting all these new builds and stuff and tbh it kind of annoys me. plus, i pwned him tvz once on python and he freaked out when i didnt gg like 2 seconds after he typed it. kinda made me lol.
Edit: MIsrah, im being a douchebag by calling you out so directly and from behind a keyboard but i do think you should be more humble when you post these builds and consider the possibility that these builds might not be as strong as you would think they are. Don't patronize people if they don't like your build or think of it as highly as you do - it annoys the fuck outta me and probably other people reading this thread.
This is one of the most insulting and terrible posts I've ever seen. StarBrift at least brings analysis and ideas into his argument... which are pretty convincing. He gives solid reasoning behind everything, unlike you who just insults everything of Misrah... Misrah is posting his experience with a build he created, in a long and thought-out form, which I think is enough for this thread. Opinions and analysis are welcome in all of these threads - he doesn't claim that these should be a new proleague standard...
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I'll agree with what Starbrift says and add a little more. You try to force cannons in order to delay his gateways, which is somewhat true. But if you are actually playing a smart toss he will already know this and plan accordingly. He has only 1 or possibly 2 gateways and needs to be able to defend vs both a hydra bust and possible mutas once your spire finishes. The only thing that can do all of this is fast storm, which does it incredibly well. If P just makes 3 cannons at each of his nexus and techs straight to storm he can have 2 storms ready to defend his cannons by the time your mutalisks are out, just as if he were playing vs a 4 hatch before gas build. At which point you should have no chance of breaking his defenses, while his templar can just gather up energy so he has 2-3 storms on those initial templars before he is any position to push out.
At the same time you are making and showing your mutalisks so incredibly early that he will easily be able to make 5-6 corsairs before he can put out any aggression. But then his corsairs+goons will basically nullify your mutas while he has a ridiculous amount of storms, giving him a midgame push that is very difficult to stop with any opening, but will almost surely run you over in this case. The main risk of a massive storm-goon push is that no matter how much storm their templar has, they can still be picked off by mutas. But because your mutas are already out, there is no risk involved in them massing corsairs. I've even seen people just make a dark archon after storm in response to early muta, which is actually probably cheaper and more effective than sairs.
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@ starbrift-
here is a game that i just recently played against some C protoss. I am using a new build order that werezerg had suggested. His build is a lair first build that gets hydras out a bit later, however you can have 7 muta pop at 7min exactly. With this new build, your spire is not delayed 40 seconds, and you can still force cannons/end the game if P is not honest. This build is better all around. The lair first then den at 23 supply looks as if Z is going lurker, or just getting a faster den.
I really haven't had that much of a chance to play- but i was exited to try out this new idea- dust bowls variation 9pool speed is next for me i guess.
Starbrit can you watch this rep? Once again i realize that P players at the C level are not perfect. I would never expect something like this to work at crazy high level, or expect to change the meat game with this. I just think that it's a nice build for D-Cish level players to try. Because unlike the pros, or people posting counters after the fact- there is no way that someone can come up with a counter in game at most foreigner level of play.
Really the replay just embarrasses the protoss... I will try and get some more games in this weekend and post the results. But till then i hope that this rep makes do.
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Works very well! a lot of times they expect you have nothing when their corsair is out, but this time you have hydras to defend your corsairs AND you get to pressure hardcore, if not winning the game outright.
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Hmmm... to add to the rabid tech-switching theme...
Is there a reason you can't go 9 ranged hydras --> muta attack --> 3-6 lurker + remaining hydras contain? Skipping hydralisk speed and delaying unit production until all four bases are saturated?
The theme seems to be to force the Protoss to build lots of stuff he doesn't actually want, in order to delay his push until your fourth is running and you can crush him with macro. You forced forward cannons with a small number of hydras, and back cannons with a small number of mutalisk... now you can force observers + something other than Zealot/Archon with a small number of lurkers. Meanwhile droning up your fourth.
I'm not too keen on the 9pool speed opening for OverDose, because it forces a similar response (extra forward cannons) to the 9hydra pressure... it seems like you're denying information without capitalizing on it. (9pool speed-->2hatch hydra forces enough cannons that the Protoss will likely lose against other builds if he plays to counter this one, but your hydra force doesn't look big or early enough to punish him for not predicting a hydra break.) Either hydra pressure --> 3hatch muta or speedling pressure --> 3hatch muta looks reasonable, but both is perhaps redundant.
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Hmm the idea of 9 pool would force extra cannons and honestly i never thought of that. However the main idea from what dustbowl said- was that with a 9 pool speed build protoss would be essentially blind untill the first corsair is out, and would not be able to see the hydra. 9 range hydra can easily handle 2 cannons- and with your 8 speedling you could really be able to have a pretty strong timing attack. But like i said i have not had the chance to mass game or try this idea out yet, so i will have to get back to you on the results.
As for the lurker suggestion, i really like this idea- but what would stop the protoss from just running through? Hmm i wonder how much gas i would have to even make lurkers with only 2 gas. Maybe i should go 3 gas earlier while upgrading lurkers, and then set a contain....
Severedevil i really like this idea because it sounds alot stronger than the original (which is just use hydra)
I think that your idea will do everything that i want much better than my original idea! Because like you said- Forcing obs would delay him even more, and with some of your muta around snipping the obs with scourge will be much easier when muta can soak up damage. Then considering that with a well spread out lurker field, storm is much less effective, this would make my 1 or 2 groups of hydra much more useful and safe from storm while they are sitting in the back of the lurker field. i really think this would a strong element to my otherwise weak midgame!
I can't believe this never even crossed my mind! I WILL TRY THIS and i just can't wait till i can post some good games. thanks for the suggestion, it is appreciated!
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This is a low econ aggressive build, and it largely depends on muta damage, but then again so does 3hatspire-5hat hydra muta. The timings of this build are:
a) 6:30 9hydra attack
b) 7:20 muta attack.
In that last rep toss corsair poped ~7min. If some z goes 12hat little lings this means as P I can get away with nexus first->1cannon->stargate which makes for a completed sair ~5:30. This means P could scout hydra coming to base in time to add a couple cannons. This mans P could see you are still on 3hat and muta pop. The timings are all scoutable and the element of surprise is gone. Pretty sure it woudl be the same case with 9pool opening, you would delay eco to start to force more cannons which equals out.
This is of course assuming protoss is playing tight, is able to scout, interpret, and react to that information. But hey, as we all known lots of protoss are not nearly able to do the above. Bottom line, its a decent build plan. Have fun with the low econ aggressive play, and be happy you are innovating and doing something different than the norm.
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Knickkknack, the timings that you are giving are when the units arrive at a cross position base on HBR. To say that a corsair could not be found and or killed by the muta or possibly hydra (If p decided to try and snipe a lord close to his nat) then i would venture to guess that P may not get a scout in even at this time. Your right about the 9 pool speed, and as i have shown the the computer replay- it really does delay your teck.
In the game that you are talking about knickknack- muta are out before 7 min and hydra are out before 6:30. The only way that P could possibly scout my base would be to fly directly to my base, bypassing all of the overlords. Now i am not trying to say that this wouldn't happen. However could a protoss even react at this time? If it takes about 40 seconds for the protoss to even cross the map with the sair- wouldn't it be to late to start covering for the muta?
I think that i will have a chance to play on friday- so i will do some testing on this time problem that might create a bit of a problem. Also one last question- would it be fair to really call this build a low econ aggression build? while i realize this is not anything like 5 hatch hydra however even though the drone count will be 7-8 lower than normal- the build makes room for the addition of a 4th and 5th hatch after the muta are off. Wouldn't this allow for the production capability to make up for the lost drones in the early game?
I created this build as a middle ground, or a softer type of play than an all in 3 or 4 hatch dra. yet at the same time i took into account the 0 pressure macro style 5 hatch builds. I wanted to create something in between. do you think that i failed in this endeavor? and that this build is nothing more than a variation of a 4 hatch?
Once again thanks for your comments and critique. Now only if starbrit would get back to me lol
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I agree with Knickknack that you can't conceal your attacks without going for more of an all-in. I thought the point of the build was that you were OK even if the Protoss scouted you.
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This is a really good build. I can see that you've put a lot of time into this, its amazing! :D
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If he scouts you early then just make 9 drones, go lurker tech, and take your 4th. The corsair can't tell the difference between 9 drones or 9 mutas and now he has to make a bunch of cannons and corsairs at his main that will be useless and delay his push.
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i just played my variantion of the bo against cpu for a bo:
you can see, i didnt get delayed hyds (maybe 2 secs) but 2 drones more and fast lair. of course you can build the spire before the hyds now and delay them for faster mutas, that is just another new option.
another option i just thought of is a fast lurker build:
you could maybe even skip hyd range and tech to lurker instead. but you morph the 9 hyds. the protoss player cannot know that, so he is forced to cannon up. than you morph your lurkers (maybe about 4-5 i guess) and on a map like destination/heartbreak(burrow push them though^^)/medusa you can do alot of damage from behind the natural now. the corsair should be too late to scout it i guess and even if he does, he have to place even more cannons (4 in front, 2 in minline, maybe block the way to the main..) and you didnt have the high costs of all the mutas.
i think the variations of this build with fast lair are numerous (fast mutas/slower mutas, hyd bust, fast lurkers, slow drop(?), eco+lurker...) and its really hard to scout and react perfectly.
starbrift may be right in many points, but i think he didnt take all these variations into account
+ element of surprise.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
Well I don't think I executed the build correctly at all, but it seems to be working anyhow and even got me to C-!
Thanks Misrah!
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Hey Kau ty for the game lol :D
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On November 01 2009 21:54 Werezerg wrote:i just played my variantion of the bo against cpu for a bo: you can see, i didnt get delayed hyds (maybe 2 secs) but 2 drones more and fast lair. of course you can build the spire before the hyds now and delay them for faster mutas, that is just another new option. another option i just thought of is a fast lurker build: you could maybe even skip hyd range and tech to lurker instead. but you morph the 9 hyds. the protoss player cannot know that, so he is forced to cannon up. than you morph your lurkers (maybe about 4-5 i guess) and on a map like destination/heartbreak(burrow push them though^^)/medusa you can do alot of damage from behind the natural now. the corsair should be too late to scout it i guess and even if he does, he have to place even more cannons (4 in front, 2 in minline, maybe block the way to the main..) and you didnt have the high costs of all the mutas. i think the variations of this build with fast lair are numerous (fast mutas/slower mutas, hyd bust, fast lurkers, slow drop(?), eco+lurker...) and its really hard to scout and react perfectly. starbrift may be right in many points, but i think he didnt take all these variations into account + element of surprise.
Holy shit i really like where you are going with this. I need to get on and play some games to try some of these variations out!
This makes the build so flexible- and considering that it's easily able to do insane tech switches there is no way a single corsair flyover before scourge or muta come out could possibly tell what the hell is going on.
This sounds really good, now we just need to get some mass games to empirically test this. I will be uploading my games this week. Everyone that plays make sure to do the same
Also kau glad that you are finding some success! but watch out i guess this build doesn't work against a good protoss- so let me know when you start playing a protoss that hard counters you ok?
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On October 29 2009 12:47 Misrah wrote:@ starbrift- here is a game that i just recently played against some C protoss. I am using a new build order that werezerg had suggested. His build is a lair first build that gets hydras out a bit later, however you can have 7 muta pop at 7min exactly. With this new build, your spire is not delayed 40 seconds, and you can still force cannons/end the game if P is not honest. This build is better all around. The lair first then den at 23 supply looks as if Z is going lurker, or just getting a faster den. I really haven't had that much of a chance to play- but i was exited to try out this new idea- dust bowls variation 9pool speed is next for me i guess. Starbrit can you watch this rep? Once again i realize that P players at the C level are not perfect. I would never expect something like this to work at crazy high level, or expect to change the meat game with this. I just think that it's a nice build for D-Cish level players to try. Because unlike the pros, or people posting counters after the fact- there is no way that someone can come up with a counter in game at most foreigner level of play. Really the replay just embarrasses the protoss... I will try and get some more games in this weekend and post the results. But till then i hope that this rep makes do.
The build was better but the long drone cuts still makes this build all in imo. If one defends from the hydra push and the mutas you are far behind. Again in that game the protoss had his stargate for like 30 sec before he started building a corsair. If he had scouted your mutas they wouldn't have killed his main.
If you do a 9speed or overspeed opening though you can probably get away with this vs better players. If you deny scout his defenses will be thrown off and unless he plays a hungry toss style he will have a hard time understanding what you're doing. Best case scenario he overdefends early on and still dont defend well enough. But then again if he scouts it he should be able to counter it.
This protoss played a more modern style PvZ with a faster second gate, he countered your hydra attack better than most because of it and if he had scouted your mutas he would have been in a better position than the people going for 4 gate archon timing.
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Sup TL- i am about to blow your minds. here is the new OD style, vs a B- 70-40 Korean protoss 300apm who was ranking his alt up. He was at C- level and 11-0 until he met my build. What happened next, can only be described as art.
Please enjoy as OD style confuses- and then turns the game into a rape. The finishing blow is picturesque.
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ouch hehe. That was a bad game XD Maybe next time ovie speed will magically get researched lol
But GG none the less
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United States10774 Posts
"how to not sound like a douche while getting pwned"
1a..oh wait where are my mutas?! 
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On November 06 2009 06:13 Misrah wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sup TL- i am about to blow your minds. here is the new OD style, vs a B- 70-40 Korean protoss 300apm who was ranking his alt up. He was at C- level and 11-0 until he met my build. What happened next, can only be described as art. Please enjoy as OD style confuses- and then turns the game into a rape. The finishing blow is picturesque.
Nice. Definitely a successful deceiving!
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On November 13 2009 23:50 sixghost wrote:
Ziph won a PvZ?
Pff ziph's pvz isn't that bad :D
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On November 13 2009 12:02 Pokebunny wrote:ROFL
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United States10774 Posts
On November 14 2009 00:32 Pokebunny wrote:Pff ziph's pvz isn't that bad :D
well according to misrah hes just a" fag protoss player" who "poetically uses 1a2a3a" to victory
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Well the reason that i was chatty in the beginning, was because before hand- i had joined his game, game started and then he just left. So when i saw his game again i was like wtf? Dosent make what i said any better, but there was at least some context for it.
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On November 14 2009 01:54 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 00:32 Pokebunny wrote:On November 13 2009 23:50 sixghost wrote:
Ziph won a PvZ? Pff ziph's pvz isn't that bad :D well according to misrah hes just a" fag protoss player" who "poetically uses 1a2a3a" to victory
He thinks protoss players are walking scum.
edit : the obvious comeback is what about the paraplegic protoss players?
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How was that 1a2a3a? You had like 6 hydras, what did you expect him to do to those.
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