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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Some posters here feel S class belongs to players that have 60% win ratios and starleagues under their belt. Other posts feel S class can mean any player above 60% win ratio that can take games from the greatest players. Both definitions are correct in my oppinion. Effort would then fall in S class category. So yes, Fantasy is an S class player because he can take games from Jaedong / Bisu / Flash. But he is not as GOOD as those 3 players because he hasn't won a starleague. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2009 00:25 baubo wrote: I personally use a very simple criteria: If there's any doubt that a player is S-class, then he is NOT s-class. Bisu - Anyone doubt he's S-class? No. So he is S-class. Jaedong - Same as above Flash - Same as above... although he did come close to dropping out before today. Leta? Fantasy? Effort? Skyhigh What have they won? Fantasy comes close IMO, but no SL title is a pretty big stigma. The rest aren't even worthy of mention. IMO, the only other player who comes close to S-class is Stork. Because he has both accomplishment and top notch ability. His only problem is he got kicked out of both SL real quickly this season. This is a definition I can get behind. | ||
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Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:55 StarBrift wrote: Funny that you'd say that considering Fantasys TvZ is his least good matchup. He is the best TvP player in the world right now and second only to Flash in TvT. While his TvZ makes him duke it out on a fairly even level with the top zergs its still his least consistent matchup. Even if he is creative in it he doesn't win all those games. I would add all the slumping players to S-Class player list aswell since they in their prime (which is recently) have been as good or almost as good as the best are right now. So basically players like Luxury, ForGG, Kal, Best, Jangbi, Stork, July, Mind. Notice that these are all player with solid play and no extremely weak matchups. why everybody says that FANTASY have the Best TvP??? can you link some games??? | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
On August 17 2009 03:04 LuisMl8 wrote: why everybody says that FANTASY have the Best TvP??? can you link some games??? Have some! | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 03:04 LuisMl8 wrote: why everybody says that FANTASY have the Best TvP??? can you link some games??? Just go to  fantasy's TLPD page and watch any of his recent vP games (with the exception of maybe his 1set vs. Bisu in the MSL). They're all amazing. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Wrong. We'll remember him for shocking us with a 3-0 of Bisu in the Batoo OSL, for his unforgettable OSL series against Jaedong, for going 3-0 in the Finals of the most epic Proleague season ever and returning T1 to PL glory, and, oh, how about for his use of the mech build that revolutionized the way TvZ is played? ...yes, Yellow is one of the most celebrated SC players of all time. We will remember him like we remember Yellow, 2nd place and a boatload of heart aches. Yellow gave me so many heart aches because he just didn't have what it took to clinch the individual leagues. There was always someone better than him, and it was always a TERRAN (that's why I hate them so much, ahahhaha). Boxer and Xellos in OSL finals. Boxer / Nada and Iloveoov in MSL finals. Contradiction. If intentional, please explain. Check his stats vs boxer / Nada. He took games from them at almost even rates. But they won games when it mattered, he didn't. They won starleagues, he didn't. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
Fantasy hasn't won a Starleague. That's a very big and critical issue. That is evidence that shows us that there has always been better players to beat him in the end. Not once has he been the best. Flash, Bisu, Jaedong have all won Starleagues. No player can win them all, but they have all done it at least once. This proves that they have an edge that Fantasy hasn't got (yet). Okey, what about pure statistics? He doesn't have at least 60% in all match-ups. Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are all over 60% in all match-ups. They are therefore proven to be more consistent and dominant in general. In Proleague Fantasy won 29 games with a win rate at 58%. Let's compare that to our three real S-class players. Hmm, all of them won over 70% (!) of their games and accumulated over 50 wins each. Enormous difference. No matter how you twist and turn it, there is a gap between J-F-B and Fantasy and you have to be blind not to see it. Really, no matter how you how you choose to define S-class there is a provable gap. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
ie, Flash recently played that crazy game vs Shuttle, is that something Fantasy would be capable of? | ||
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MannerMan
371 Posts
I'd call Jaedong Bisu Fantasy and Flash S class | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
On August 17 2009 03:15 Holgerius wrote: Okey, what about pure statistics? He doesn't have at least 60% in all match-ups. Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are all over 60% in all match-ups. According to the statistics, Flash's weakest matchup is stronger than Fantasy's strongest  (This is almost the case for Jaedong too; and he and Bisu both have two stronger matchups than Fantasy's TvP.) | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On August 17 2009 03:37 okum wrote: According to the statistics, Flash's weakest matchup is stronger than Fantasy's strongest (This is almost the case for Jaedong too; and he and Bisu both have two stronger matchups than Fantasy's TvP.)Exactly. They're on a different level. Fantasy can innovate all he wants, but those cute valkyries has brought him neither any gold nor an impressive win rate (compared to J-F-B). | ||
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Neighbor
United States119 Posts
In my opinion, the reason people are not ready to accept players with more recent success into the so called S-class is due to the players' lack of history. When people think about Bisu, they remember the days when his corsairs and dts sent the zerg into panic, Flash, when goliaths crushed wave after wave of interceptors on TvP graveyards, and JD...well we don't really need to say much about him (we know he's good). The fact that these three are still here today, and still dominating the pro scene shows that they have stood the test of time and are worthy of being bestowed the title of S-class. Fantasy, as much as I love him as a player, has not yet completed such a feat. Sure we cheer when his valks kill giant clumps of muta but in my mind, he is still the guy that almost beat Stork and JD in a bo5. Bottom line is, Fantasy has not yet accomplished anything except proven that he is a player capable and I stress capable of being one of the best. In my eyes, comparing Fantasy to the J-F-B is like comparing JD to the bonjwas. Very very close, not quite there just yet. | ||
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On August 17 2009 04:34 tonight wrote: seems like threads like these pop up once a month Yeah, but I don't mind. It's a fun topic.  | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2009 03:15 Holgerius wrote: JWD, Fantasy is not S-class, no matter how you look on it, damnit. You must be subjective as fuck to claim it. Let's look at some facts about him and compare them to the respective facts about Flash, Jaedong and Bisu and you will see the difference between them. Fantasy is an awesomely good player; creative and entertaining, and he has a crapload of potential, but he has yet to prove himself S-class. ... No matter how you twist and turn it, there is a gap between J-F-B and Fantasy and you have to be blind not to see it. Really, no matter how you how you choose to define S-class there is a provable gap. Actually, it is a matter of definitions and is highly debatable. Are Jaedong/Bisu/Fantasy your litmus test for S-class play? If so, then yes, Fantasy is not S-Class. But if you're extending the S-class definition down to players like Effort and Leta, Fantasy has shown that he can match, if not exceed the level of those players. Personally, I don't think Effort, Leta, and Fantasy are S-class players (A+ is an appropriate category), but it is open for discussion. On August 17 2009 03:33 Nevuk wrote: To be the S-class Terran, Fantasy would have to be better than Flash. Is he? Clearly not in TvZ or TvT, but TvP you can make the case for it, especially as Flash has lost to so many dragons recently, most of whom are slumping so hard it's surprising they can still reach the keyboard, which isn't a statement that is true of Fantasy. However, Fantasy isn't as unshakeable vs lower level toss. ie, Flash recently played that crazy game vs Shuttle, is that something Fantasy would be capable of? Is there some place where it's established that there can only be one S-class player of each race? On August 17 2009 03:37 okum wrote: According to the statistics, Flash's weakest matchup is stronger than Fantasy's strongest (This is almost the case for Jaedong too; and he and Bisu both have two stronger matchups than Fantasy's TvP.)The thing is, statistics are not very useful for this discussion, because they're inherently skewed toward players who have had long consistent careers (since short periods of inconsistencey, especially toward the beginning of one's career, get overshadowed), which seems to oppose what "S-class" means. S-class describes current play, not career play, so a statistic that applies to one's whole career is not very useful. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 17 2009 04:42 TheYango wrote: Actually, it is a matter of definitions and is highly debatable. Are Jaedong/Bisu/Fantasy your litmus test for S-class play? If so, then yes, Fantasy is not S-Class. But if you're extending the S-class definition down to players like Effort and Leta, Fantasy has shown that he can match, if not exceed the level of those players. Personally, I don't think Effort, Leta, and Fantasy are S-class players (A+ is an appropriate category), but it is open for discussion. Is there some place where it's established that there can only be one S-class player of each race? What S-class actually means, but aside from that, no. '"Sonderklasse" of which "S-Class" is an abbreviation. Sonderklasse means "special class" (or rather: "In a class of its own")' Technically, there can only be one s-class member of each matchup of each race. If we want to accept that we are using descriptive grammar and ignoring the term's origins, then the term doesn't really mean anything. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
If you're going to keep falling back on the PL as evidence for why he is S-class, he should at least have the stats there to back it up... and he doesn't. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On August 17 2009 04:42 TheYango wrote: Actually, it is a matter of definitions and is highly debatable. Are Jaedong/Bisu/Fantasy your litmus test for S-class play? If so, then yes, Fantasy is not S-Class. But if you're extending the S-class definition down to players like Effort and Leta, Fantasy has shown that he can match, if not exceed the level of those players. Personally, I don't think Effort, Leta, and Fantasy are S-class players (A+ is an appropriate category), but it is open for discussion. Is there some place where it's established that there can only be one S-class player of each race? The thing is, statistics are not very useful for this discussion, because they're inherently skewed toward players who have had long consistent careers (since short periods of inconsistencey, especially toward the beginning of one's career, get overshadowed), which seems to oppose what "S-class" means. S-class describes current play, not career play, so a statistic that applies to one's whole career is not very useful. No, it doesn't really matter how you define S-class. Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are clearly one class above Fantasy, so if Fantasy is defined as S-class we have to come up with a new word for what they are. Their long, consistent career stats has got nothing to do with this seasons PL stats, where they were miles ahead of him. | ||
GTR
51715 Posts
Why? Because everyone has their own separate ideal for each of them. | ||
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