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On August 17 2009 00:28 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 22:28 StalkerSC wrote:
Is this by Elo, KeSPA rankings or just some stupid thing you made up? You don't think Stork and Jangbi are S? I would not consider them S-class right now. Stork was S-class and Jangbi was getting there, but they've both been slumping pretty hard. They're getting back on track, though. In my opinion Jaedong, Bisu and Flash are the only S-class players currently. They have the stats to back it up; at least 60% in all match-ups over a long period of time and 50+ wins in PL. That does indeed prove their consistency. But what truly separates them from players such as Leta or Effort is that they have Starleague titles to back it up, they have beaten top players in Bo5's on the biggest stage, not just bashed noobs like Orion in PL. Fantasy (and Effort, maybe) is closest to becoming S-class, but since he got knocked out by Bisu and Jaedong I feel that he's still one step behind. If I were to make a list it would look something like this (made without to much thought put into it): S-class: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu. They're the best of the best of the best and will be the favourite against anyone. Since there will be no more Bonjwas, the title should be reserved for a select few in order to make it as exclusive as possible and truly accentuate it's importance. A+: Fantasy, Leta, Effort, Calm, Stork, Jangbi. Super solid players who can take down S-class players (not with cheese or map imbalance, but through straight up play), and have definite potential to win a Starleague. A: Skyhigh, Iris, Yarnc, Zero, Kal, Free, etc. They stand out from the big blob of players beneath them on the list, but generally have a weak match up or something that will prevent them from going all the way. B: the avarage guy who will perform OK in PL, win 50% of his games, reach Ro16 or so in Starleagues but won't win anything. . . . . . . Z: Zergbong (how is he a progamer?)
I'm definitely agreeing with you more than with the op. Having A+ class is a nice touch to distinguish the good players between the excellent ones (sorry, Fantasy is no S).
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I'm not agreeing with the OP on the notion that S-class player on the whole has two good matchups. I'm rather in the boat that S-class must be good at ALL three matchups. Because take for example BeSt and Stork who almost fit the two matchup S-class criteria. The two players are clearly not that great vs Zergs. What S-class gamer loses consistently to no namer zerg players?
I'd say in order to be considered S-class, you've got to demonstrate that you can play all three matchups equally well to some arbitrary win rate. To date, that leaves us with Bisu, Jaedong, Flash. Fantasy is on the borderline, but I'd say his TvZ is probably good enough to be classified as so.
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idk if you can count effort just yet.
nly 30 games vs p so far (but some of the sexiest wins for sure)
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Perhaps this is a stupid question, what is the origin of the term S class? why S?
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United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 01:34 StorrZerg wrote:
idk if you can count effort just yet.
nly 30 games vs p so far (but some of the sexiest wins for sure)
Other than as it relates to current skill, history has nothing to do with determining who is S-class right now. If some D- iCCup player woke up tomorrow with S-class skills, he'd be S-class.
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On August 17 2009 01:41 Heggie wrote:
Perhaps this is a stupid question, what is the origin of the term S class? why S?
Super, Superb, Special... smexy... so many awesome things starting with the letter S. 
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Despite how much I'm in love with Fantasy's skills, I do have to agree with some posters above me that he's definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. However, his TvP is definitely of S-class level, it's somewhere along the line with JvZ or FvT. But that alone doesn't make him an S-class player.
Other than outstanding skills, an S-class player gives me this rock-solid feeling that he WILL win against anyone (except when their opponent is another S-class). But Fantasy does not deliver such message. He's still kind of 'fragile' if you know what I mean (not his look of course, even though yea he looks like he could be blown off by a strong wind).
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On August 17 2009 01:43 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 01:34 StorrZerg wrote:
idk if you can count effort just yet.
nly 30 games vs p so far (but some of the sexiest wins for sure) Other than as it relates to current skill, history has nothing to do with determining who is S-class right now. If some D- iCCup player woke up tomorrow with S-class skills, he'd be S-class.
When we talk about "current" S-class skills, it's hard to distinguish within a certain time period using a relatively small pool size whether or not they truly are adept at the matchup. Fluke wins happen and fluke losses also happen. Thoughts?
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United States12607 Posts
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On August 17 2009 01:31 Roffles wrote:
I'm not agreeing with the OP on the notion that S-class player on the whole has two good matchups. I'm rather in the boat that S-class must be good at ALL three matchups. Because take for example BeSt and Stork who almost fit the two matchup S-class criteria. The two players are clearly not that great vs Zergs. What S-class gamer loses consistently to no namer zerg players?
I'd say in order to be considered S-class, you've got to demonstrate that you can play all three matchups equally well to some arbitrary win rate. To date, that leaves us with Bisu, Jaedong, Flash. Fantasy is on the borderline, but I'd say his TvZ is probably good enough to be classified as so.
I think you misread my post; I gave two criterions and said it's a matter of taste, and I also listed the 3/3 players separately. I've seen lots of people who would include 7-10 gamers in their S-class list, and there are definitely not that many players who are S-class in all matchups. My point was to accommodate this perspective. I'm personally inclined to agree that an S-class player should be S-class in all matchups, and this leaves about 3, at most 5, players.
If we take the 60% threshold as an arbitrary marker then that leaves only Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and Effort (right now). If Effort should be excluded, it is only because he hasn't played enough games; however, I think everyone can agree that Effort has demonstrated S-class play in all three matchups, and if he can keep it up, he will definitely be there. Fantasy has slightly more to prove, IMO.
Instead of just choosing a hard threshold, it would be interesting to compile some statistics on how many players are above each percentage level... but I'm too lazy to write a TLPD scraper. TLPD should be downloadable :/
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United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 01:52 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 01:43 JWD wrote:On August 17 2009 01:34 StorrZerg wrote:
idk if you can count effort just yet.
nly 30 games vs p so far (but some of the sexiest wins for sure) Other than as it relates to current skill, history has nothing to do with determining who is S-class right now. If some D- iCCup player woke up tomorrow with S-class skills, he'd be S-class. When we talk about "current" S-class skills, it's hard to distinguish within a certain time period using a relatively small pool size whether or not they truly are adept at the matchup. Fluke wins happen and fluke losses also happen. Thoughts?
Sure — a longer history of success is (weak, especially when dealing with careers of different duration) evidence of currently-S-class skill. This is using history "as it relates to current skill", and an argument that makes total sense.
What doesn't make sense, and what I was objecting to, is the idea that just because Effort has less games under his belt than other players, he cannot be S-class. That's the argument that StorrZerg made.
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On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. Fantasy vs.  Jaedong: 6-7 Fantasy vs.  Bisu: 3-2 Fantasy vs.  Flash: 2-4 Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks?
Not S-class != Suck.
In my mind Fantasy will never reach S-Class until he wins a title. Or rack up enough silvers to make Yellow and Stork envious.
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United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:02 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7 Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2 Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4 Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks? Not S-class != Suck. In my mind Fantasy will never reach S-Class until he wins a title. Or rack up enough silvers to make Yellow and Stork envious.
Oh come on, the last line was an exaggeration I stuck on there The point stands that Fantasy is pretty wildly underrated at TL...no JD and this guy would in all likelihood be a 2-time OSL champ. Even with JD around he's a 2-time finalist and just led his team to a PL Championship.
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On August 17 2009 02:02 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7 Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2 Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4 Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks? Not S-class != Suck. In my mind Fantasy will never reach S-Class until he wins a title. Or rack up enough silvers to make Yellow and Stork envious.
So i guess your saying Stork is S- ? I kinda agree on that. 
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i wouldn't consider fantasy to be s-class at all. he definitely isnt a favorite against some top non-s-class players like effort or calm
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On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7 Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2 Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4 Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks?
Dude I'm not saying he sucks. But he's not as good as the other three overall. He got good results against J-B-F, but he does not dominate the rest like the other three players do. Plus, he has not won any individual title so far. Let's face it, skill matters but if you don't win a title, it won't do as much. Fantasy needs to overcome this in order to rise to the top of the top. I hope and believe that he will. He just needs to refine his play a little bit more and he will be truly unbeatable.
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fantasy is S-class in all, sea isn't in any mu.
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United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:06 nayumi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7 Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2 Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4 Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks? Dude I'm not saying he sucks. But he's not as good as the other three overall. He got good results against J-B-F, but he does not dominate the rest like the other three players do. Plus, he has not won any individual title so far. Let's face it, skill matters but if you don't win a title, it won't do as much. Fantasy needs to overcome this in order to rise to the top of the top. I hope and believe that he will. He just needs to refine his play a little bit more and he will be truly unbeatable.
Of course you weren't saying he sucks...that comment was exaggeration and not directed at you specifically That Fantasy doesn't dominate lesser players like your Big Three is a really good point, but the mere fact that he doesn't have a title is totally irrelevant to whether he is S-class if you consider who his opponents were...
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On August 17 2009 02:04 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 02:02 baubo wrote:On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7 Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2 Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4 Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks? Not S-class != Suck. In my mind Fantasy will never reach S-Class until he wins a title. Or rack up enough silvers to make Yellow and Stork envious. Oh come on, the last line was an exaggeration I stuck on there The point stands that Fantasy is pretty wildly underrated at TL...no JD and this guy would in all likelihood be a 2-time OSL champ. Even with JD around he's a 2-time finalist and just led his team to a PL Championship.
on the contrary, Fantasy is way to much overrated, today you could see difference between S-class and the others: Flash - decisively winnig a title and recently Fantasy - choking in semis
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United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:09 johanes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 02:04 JWD wrote:On August 17 2009 02:02 baubo wrote:On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three. Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7 Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2 Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4 Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks? Not S-class != Suck. In my mind Fantasy will never reach S-Class until he wins a title. Or rack up enough silvers to make Yellow and Stork envious. Oh come on, the last line was an exaggeration I stuck on there The point stands that Fantasy is pretty wildly underrated at TL...no JD and this guy would in all likelihood be a 2-time OSL champ. Even with JD around he's a 2-time finalist and just led his team to a PL Championship. + Show Spoiler [GOM spoiler] +on the contrary, Fantasy is way to much overrated, today you could see difference between S-class and the others: Flash - decisively winnig a title and recently Fantasy - choking in semis
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Fantasy didn't play in GOM (nobody on T1 could)
Oh and you want to know why Flash didn't "choke in the [OSL] semis" like Fantasy did? HE FUCKING LOST IN THE RO16 (Fantasy went 3-0 FYI)
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EPT
