S-class indicator

On August 16 2009 21:46 iamho wrote:
this would make much more sense if you only counted maybe a year's worth of games

On August 16 2009 21:35 okum wrote:
Also, realistically, recent results should weigh more heavily than old ones, and a reasonably large sample of games is required.

On August 16 2009 21:55 iamho wrote:


why not just use ELO then?

On August 16 2009 21:59 Ver wrote:
You can't do this by stats though. i,e

Leta is not S class in anything.

Fantasy is S class TvZ.

On August 16 2009 22:02 iamho wrote:
maybe 2250+ elo for s class, 2200+ elo for s-class in individual matchups? there was actually a thread on this a while ago, i cant find it though

On August 16 2009 21:59 Ver wrote:
You can't do this by stats though. i,e

Leta is not S class in anything.
Fantasy is S class TvZ.

If you go by stats you have people like Leta/Skyhigh grouped with Fantasy lol.

Basically it's pretty obvious when someone is S class overall (the top 5) or has an S class matchup (Yarnc/July). Kinda like being a bonjwa. You just are.

On August 16 2009 22:12 ArvickHero wrote:

Fantasy is not S-class TvZ lol..

On August 16 2009 22:21 Hinanawi wrote:
No but seriously, I think Bisu should be considered S-class in all 3 matchups still, maybe 2180 instead of 2200 is a good mark?

On August 16 2009 22:25 okum wrote:

Jaedong also definitely has S-class ZvT still.

On August 16 2009 22:28 StalkerSC wrote:
Is this by Elo, KeSPA rankings or just some stupid thing you made up? You don't think Stork and Jangbi are S?

On August 16 2009 22:48 Glioburd wrote:


Yarnc is S-class in ZvT and ZvZ :o.

On August 16 2009 22:48 Glioburd wrote:


Yarnc is S-class in ZvT and ZvZ :o.

On August 16 2009 22:16 JWD wrote:

Yeah, 6-7 vs. Jaedong in his career...kid's TvZ is clearly not S-class lol

On August 16 2009 22:12 ArvickHero wrote:

Fantasy is not S-class TvZ lol..

On August 16 2009 23:03 Kwark wrote:

He's autofavourite against anyone but JD and a coinflip against JD. What more do you want?

On August 16 2009 23:03 Kwark wrote:

He's autofavourite against anyone but JD and a coinflip against JD. What more do you want?

On August 16 2009 23:03 Kwark wrote:

He's autofavourite against anyone but JD and a coinflip against JD. What more do you want?

On August 16 2009 23:18 Tien wrote:
Yarnc's ZvT has not been tested in BoX series recently. Which is the gold standard for seperating the real progamers from the boys.


Jaedong is proven and tested to WIN. BO5 series against Flash, Hwasin, Mind, Fantasy.


Saying Yarnc has better ZvT than Jaedong is laughable. Until Yarnc starts winning BoX series vs STRONG terrans, I consider him just another Leta.


You put your money with Jaedong to win series vs Terrans, not Yarnc.

On August 16 2009 23:18 Tien wrote:
Yarnc's ZvT has not been tested in BoX series recently. Which is the gold standard for seperating the real progamers from the boys.


Jaedong is proven and tested to WIN. BO5 series against Flash, Hwasin, Mind, Fantasy.


Saying Yarnc has better ZvT than Jaedong is laughable. Until Yarnc starts winning BoX series vs STRONG terrans, I consider him just another Leta.


You put your money with Jaedong to win series vs Terrans, not Yarnc.

On August 16 2009 23:19 Shikyo wrote:

Definite underdog against Yarnc, underdog against Effort. Underdog against Kwanro most likely because of styles.

On August 16 2009 23:54 KasPra wrote:


I'd say he is the underdog against calm too (if they had time to prepare) And i agree that fantasy's TvP is S-class while his other match ups are not.

And i dont think Leta's TvZ is S-class because his 2 port kinda failed against Jaedong and it problably will too against other S-class ZvT'ers like yarnc.

On August 16 2009 22:28 StalkerSC wrote:
Is this by Elo, KeSPA rankings or just some stupid thing you made up? You don't think Stork and Jangbi are S?

On August 17 2009 00:34 FirstBorn wrote:
Not to break anyone's bubble, but aren't we trying to hard and too often to label players ? S-class this, A-class that, Bonjwa this again. Almost every time one of these threads appear we're bassically talking about the same thing even if the subject should be slightly different.

On August 17 2009 00:28 Holgerius wrote:

I would not consider them S-class right now. Stork was S-class and Jangbi was getting there, but they've both been slumping pretty hard. They're getting back on track, though.

In my opinion Jaedong, Bisu and Flash are the only S-class players currently. They have the stats to back it up; at least 60% in all match-ups over a long period of time and 50+ wins in PL. That does indeed prove their consistency. But what truly separates them from players such as Leta or Effort is that they have Starleague titles to back it up, they have beaten top players in Bo5's on the biggest stage, not just bashed noobs like Orion in PL. Fantasy (and Effort, maybe) is closest to becoming S-class, but since he got knocked out by Bisu and Jaedong I feel that he's still one step behind.

If I were to make a list it would look something like this (made without to much thought put into it):

S-class: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu. They're the best of the best of the best and will be the favourite against anyone. Since there will be no more Bonjwas, the title should be reserved for a select few in order to make it as exclusive as possible and truly accentuate it's importance.

A+: Fantasy, Leta, Effort, Calm, Stork, Jangbi. Super solid players who can take down S-class players (not with cheese or map imbalance, but through straight up play), and have definite potential to win a Starleague.

A: Skyhigh, Iris, Yarnc, Zero, Kal, Free, etc. They stand out from the big blob of players beneath them on the list, but generally have a weak match up or something that will prevent them from going all the way.

B: the avarage guy who will perform OK in PL, win 50% of his games, reach Ro16 or so in Starleagues but won't win anything.
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.
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Z: Zergbong (how is he a progamer?)

On August 17 2009 01:34 StorrZerg wrote:
idk if you can count effort just yet.

nly 30 games vs p so far (but some of the sexiest wins for sure)

On August 17 2009 01:41 Heggie wrote:
Perhaps this is a stupid question, what is the origin of the term S class? why S?

On August 17 2009 01:43 JWD wrote:

Other than as it relates to current skill, history has nothing to do with determining who is S-class right now. If some D- iCCup player woke up tomorrow with S-class skills, he'd be S-class.

On August 17 2009 01:47 nayumi wrote:
[Fantasy]'s definitely not in the same league with the Big Three.

On August 17 2009 01:31 Roffles wrote:
I'm not agreeing with the OP on the notion that S-class player on the whole has two good matchups. I'm rather in the boat that S-class must be good at ALL three matchups. Because take for example BeSt and Stork who almost fit the two matchup S-class criteria. The two players are clearly not that great vs Zergs. What S-class gamer loses consistently to no namer zerg players?

I'd say in order to be considered S-class, you've got to demonstrate that you can play all three matchups equally well to some arbitrary win rate. To date, that leaves us with Bisu, Jaedong, Flash. Fantasy is on the borderline, but I'd say his TvZ is probably good enough to be classified as so.

On August 17 2009 01:52 Roffles wrote:


When we talk about "current" S-class skills, it's hard to distinguish within a certain time period using a relatively small pool size whether or not they truly are adept at the matchup. Fluke wins happen and fluke losses also happen. Thoughts?

On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:

Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7
Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2
Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4

Cumulative: 11-13 (46%)

Not in the same league? Come on.

Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks?

On August 17 2009 02:02 baubo wrote:


Not S-class != Suck.

In my mind Fantasy will never reach S-Class until he wins a title. Or rack up enough silvers to make Yellow and Stork envious.

On August 17 2009 02:02 baubo wrote:


Not S-class != Suck.

In my mind Fantasy will never reach S-Class until he wins a title. Or rack up enough silvers to make Yellow and Stork envious.

On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:

Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7
Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2
Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4

Cumulative: 11-13 (46%)

Not in the same league? Come on.

Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks?

On August 17 2009 02:06 nayumi wrote:

Dude I'm not saying he sucks. But he's not as good as the other three overall. He got good results against J-B-F, but he does not dominate the rest like the other three players do. Plus, he has not won any individual title so far. Let's face it, skill matters but if you don't win a title, it won't do as much. Fantasy needs to overcome this in order to rise to the top of the top. I hope and believe that he will. He just needs to refine his play a little bit more and he will be truly unbeatable.

On August 17 2009 02:04 JWD wrote:

Oh come on, the last line was an exaggeration I stuck on there The point stands that Fantasy is pretty wildly underrated at TL...no JD and this guy would in all likelihood be a 2-time OSL champ. Even with JD around he's a 2-time finalist and just led his team to a PL Championship.

On August 17 2009 02:10 JWD wrote:

fhd;ajsfhjdklsahfjkdlsahfjkdasfdasfdasf

Fantasy didn't play in GOM (nobody on T1 could)
Flash lost in the OSL Ro16 (Fantasy went 3-0 and then 2-0 to get to the semis)

On August 17 2009 02:09 johanes wrote:


on the contrary, Fantasy is way to much overrated, today you could see difference between S-class and the others: Flash - decisively winnig a title and recently Fantasy - choking in semis

On August 17 2009 02:13 MrHoon wrote:
But Fantasy is made of SILVER
LOLOLOLOLOLOL

On August 17 2009 02:04 JWD wrote:

Oh come on, the last line was an exaggeration I stuck on there The point stands that Fantasy is pretty wildly underrated at TL...no JD and this guy would in all likelihood be a 2-time OSL champ. Even with JD around he's a 2-time finalist and just led his team to a PL Championship.

On August 17 2009 02:04 dinmsab wrote:


So i guess your saying Stork is S- ? I kinda agree on that.

On August 17 2009 02:16 baubo wrote:


Well, if you put it this way, Stork would be Bonjawa with 4 SL titles if he didn't ran into the bad luck of meeting Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash at their peak.

On August 17 2009 02:14 Roffles wrote:
Dunno, I find it hardly Fantasy's fault that he ... 2) Got bounced by Bisu in MSL quarters, 3) Got bounced by Jaedong in OSL semis.

Flash on the other hand had trouble making the quarters and semis of MSL and OSL.

On August 17 2009 02:08 JWD wrote:

Of course you weren't saying he sucks...that comment was exaggeration and not directed at you specifically That Fantasy doesn't dominate lesser players like your Big Three is a really good point, but the mere fact that he doesn't have a title is totally irrelevant to whether he is S-class if you consider who his opponents were...

On August 17 2009 02:20 okum wrote:



Flash got bounced by Jaedong and Yarnc from OSL; wasn't that also "not his fault" then?

MSL, on the other hand... but, as far as bogus arguments go, you could argue that Flash's overschedule by also having GOM led him to lose in the MSL, so that wasn't his fault

On August 17 2009 00:28 Holgerius wrote:

I would not consider them S-class right now. Stork was S-class and Jangbi was getting there, but they've both been slumping pretty hard. They're getting back on track, though.

In my opinion Jaedong, Bisu and Flash are the only S-class players currently. They have the stats to back it up; at least 60% in all match-ups over a long period of time and 50+ wins in PL. That does indeed prove their consistency. But what truly separates them from players such as Leta or Effort is that they have Starleague titles to back it up, they have beaten top players in Bo5's on the biggest stage, not just bashed noobs like Orion in PL. Fantasy (and Effort, maybe) is closest to becoming S-class, but since he got knocked out by Bisu and Jaedong I feel that he's still one step behind.

If I were to make a list it would look something like this (made without to much thought put into it):

S-class: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu. They're the best of the best of the best and will be the favourite against anyone. Since there will be no more Bonjwas, the title should be reserved for a select few in order to make it as exclusive as possible and truly accentuate it's importance.

A+: Fantasy, Leta, Effort, Calm, Stork, Jangbi. Super solid players who can take down S-class players (not with cheese or map imbalance, but through straight up play), and have definite potential to win a Starleague.

A: Skyhigh, Iris, Yarnc, Zero, Kal, Free, etc. They stand out from the big blob of players beneath them on the list, but generally have a weak match up or something that will prevent them from going all the way.

B: the avarage guy who will perform OK in PL, win 50% of his games, reach Ro16 or so in Starleagues but won't win anything.
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.
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Z: Zergbong (how is he a progamer?)

On August 17 2009 02:26 Tien wrote:
Proleague may be important, but real progamers are not made in the proleagues, they're made in the OSL / MSL.

On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote:

Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7
Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2
Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4

Cumulative: 11-13 (46%)

Not in the same league? Come on.

Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks?

On August 17 2009 02:20 okum wrote:



Flash got bounced by Jaedong and Yarnc from OSL; wasn't that also "not his fault" then?

MSL, on the other hand... but, as far as bogus arguments go, you could argue that Flash's overschedule by also having GOM led him to lose in the MSL, so that wasn't his fault

On August 17 2009 01:41 Heggie wrote:
Perhaps this is a stupid question, what is the origin of the term S class? why S?

The name "S-Class" derives from the German word "Sonderklasse" of which "S-Class" is an abbreviation. Sonderklasse means "special class" (or rather: "In a class of its own")

On August 17 2009 02:28 JWD wrote:

Unless you're some sort of insider in the Korean SC scene, you are not in a position to make this declaration with any authority, and it's especially silly considering that players, coaches, broadcasters, the majority of fans...basically the entire SC scene is now more concerned with Proleague results than individual league results.

On August 17 2009 02:35 Tien wrote:



We will remember SKT 1 as the best proleague team out there.



But we won't remember Fantasy for anything until he wins starleagues. Remember Yellow? Yellow was neck to neck with Boxer / Nada in games, but he was never on their level.



Praise what you want about the proleague. Effort and Leta both made huge contributions to their teams in the proleague, but they are overshadowed by the Flash / Jaedong / Bisu for 1 reason:


They have ZERO starleagues under their belt.

On August 17 2009 02:35 Tien wrote:



We will remember SKT 1 as the best proleague team out there.



But we won't remember Fantasy for anything until he wins starleagues.

Remember Yellow?

Yellow was neck to neck with Boxer / Nada in games, but he was never on their level.

Praise what you want about the proleague. Effort and Leta both made huge contributions to their teams in the proleague, but they are overshadowed by the Flash / Jaedong / Bisu for 1 reason:


They have ZERO starleagues under their belt.

On August 16 2009 21:59 Ver wrote:
You can't do this by stats though. i,e

Leta is not S class in anything.
Fantasy is S class TvZ.

If you go by stats you have people like Leta/Skyhigh grouped with Fantasy lol.

Basically it's pretty obvious when someone is S class overall (the top 5) or has an S class matchup (Yarnc/July). Kinda like being a bonjwa. You just are.

On August 17 2009 00:25 baubo wrote:
I personally use a very simple criteria: If there's any doubt that a player is S-class, then he is NOT s-class.

Bisu - Anyone doubt he's S-class? No. So he is S-class.
Jaedong - Same as above
Flash - Same as above... although he did come close to dropping out before today.

Leta? Fantasy? Effort? Skyhigh What have they won? Fantasy comes close IMO, but no SL title is a pretty big stigma. The rest aren't even worthy of mention.

IMO, the only other player who comes close to S-class is Stork. Because he has both accomplishment and top notch ability. His only problem is he got kicked out of both SL real quickly this season.

On August 17 2009 02:55 StarBrift wrote:


Funny that you'd say that considering Fantasys TvZ is his least good matchup. He is the best TvP player in the world right now and second only to Flash in TvT. While his TvZ makes him duke it out on a fairly even level with the top zergs its still his least consistent matchup. Even if he is creative in it he doesn't win all those games.

I would add all the slumping players to S-Class player list aswell since they in their prime (which is recently) have been as good or almost as good as the best are right now. So basically players like Luxury, ForGG, Kal, Best, Jangbi, Stork, July, Mind. Notice that these are all player with solid play and no extremely weak matchups.

On August 17 2009 03:04 LuisMl8 wrote:


why everybody says that FANTASY have the Best TvP??? can you link some games???

On August 17 2009 03:04 LuisMl8 wrote:


why everybody says that FANTASY have the Best TvP??? can you link some games???

Wrong. We'll remember him for shocking us with a 3-0 of Bisu in the Batoo OSL, for his unforgettable OSL series against Jaedong, for going 3-0 in the Finals of the most epic Proleague season ever and returning T1 to PL glory, and, oh, how about for his use of the mech build that revolutionized the way TvZ is played?


...yes, Yellow is one of the most celebrated SC players of all time.

Contradiction. If intentional, please explain.

On August 17 2009 03:15 Holgerius wrote:
Okey, what about pure statistics? He doesn't have at least 60% in all match-ups. Jaedong, Flash and Bisu are all over 60% in all match-ups.

On August 17 2009 03:37 okum wrote:


According to the statistics, Flash's weakest matchup is stronger than Fantasy's strongest (This is almost the case for Jaedong too; and he and Bisu both have two stronger matchups than Fantasy's TvP.)

On August 17 2009 04:34 tonight wrote:
seems like threads like these pop up once a month

On August 17 2009 03:15 Holgerius wrote:
JWD, Fantasy is not S-class, no matter how you look on it, damnit. You must be subjective as fuck to claim it. Let's look at some facts about him and compare them to the respective facts about Flash, Jaedong and Bisu and you will see the difference between them. Fantasy is an awesomely good player; creative and entertaining, and he has a crapload of potential, but he has yet to prove himself S-class.

...

No matter how you twist and turn it, there is a gap between J-F-B and Fantasy and you have to be blind not to see it. Really, no matter how you how you choose to define S-class there is a provable gap.

On August 17 2009 03:33 Nevuk wrote:
To be the S-class Terran, Fantasy would have to be better than Flash. Is he? Clearly not in TvZ or TvT, but TvP you can make the case for it, especially as Flash has lost to so many dragons recently, most of whom are slumping so hard it's surprising they can still reach the keyboard, which isn't a statement that is true of Fantasy. However, Fantasy isn't as unshakeable vs lower level toss.

ie, Flash recently played that crazy game vs Shuttle, is that something Fantasy would be capable of?

On August 17 2009 03:37 okum wrote:
According to the statistics, Flash's weakest matchup is stronger than Fantasy's strongest (This is almost the case for Jaedong too; and he and Bisu both have two stronger matchups than Fantasy's TvP.)

On August 17 2009 04:42 TheYango wrote:

Actually, it is a matter of definitions and is highly debatable. Are Jaedong/Bisu/Fantasy your litmus test for S-class play? If so, then yes, Fantasy is not S-Class. But if you're extending the S-class definition down to players like Effort and Leta, Fantasy has shown that he can match, if not exceed the level of those players.

Personally, I don't think Effort, Leta, and Fantasy are S-class players (A+ is an appropriate category), but it is open for discussion.


Is there some place where it's established that there can only be one S-class player of each race?

On August 17 2009 04:42 TheYango wrote:

Actually, it is a matter of definitions and is highly debatable. Are Jaedong/Bisu/Fantasy your litmus test for S-class play? If so, then yes, Fantasy is not S-Class. But if you're extending the S-class definition down to players like Effort and Leta, Fantasy has shown that he can match, if not exceed the level of those players.

Personally, I don't think Effort, Leta, and Fantasy are S-class players (A+ is an appropriate category), but it is open for discussion.


Is there some place where it's established that there can only be one S-class player of each race?


The thing is, statistics are not very useful for this discussion, because they're inherently skewed toward players who have had long consistent careers (since short periods of inconsistencey, especially toward the beginning of one's career, get overshadowed), which seems to oppose what "S-class" means. S-class describes current play, not career play, so a statistic that applies to one's whole career is not very useful.

On August 17 2009 04:58 Holgerius wrote:
No, it doesn't really matter how you define S-class. Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are clearly one class above Fantasy, so if Fantasy is defined as S-class we have to come up with a new word for what they are.

On August 17 2009 06:20 TheYango wrote:

Read what I wrote more carefully. The OP put Leta, Effort, and Skyhigh in the S-class category. I agree that Fantasy is below Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu, but if Leta, Effort, and Skyhigh are in the S-class category, doesn't Fantasy deserve to be there too?

As GTR says, each person puts the bar somewhere different. There's nothing that makes your way objectively right, or theirs objectively wrong.

On August 17 2009 06:42 SkelA wrote:
Stork is definately S class in pvp pvt he just his pvz not there yet

On August 16 2009 21:35 okum wrote:
a lot of shit

On August 17 2009 06:56 iD.NicKy wrote:
S class = top 10 kespa period

On August 17 2009 06:55 Heimatloser wrote:

you, my friend, are an idiot.
+ Show Spoiler +

On August 17 2009 06:42 SkelA wrote:
Stork is definately S class in pvp pvt just his pvz not there yet

On August 16 2009 21:59 Ver wrote:
You can't do this by stats though. i,e

Leta is not S class in anything.
Fantasy is S class TvZ.

If you go by stats you have people like Leta/Skyhigh grouped with Fantasy lol.

Basically it's pretty obvious when someone is S class overall (the top 5) or has an S class matchup (Yarnc/July). Kinda like being a bonjwa. You just are.

On August 17 2009 07:35 GreEny K wrote:



Are you kidding me?? When Leta wins he absolutely DESTROYS his opponents, its not even close and he just abuses them. When he loses he gets demolished and doesnt do a single thing right though. BUT his TVT and TVZ are by far S class!!!! Like someone already said 6-7 against JD?! Yeah ok thats not S class. I think beating JD once should make you a fucking mogul in the eyes of any SC fan.

On August 17 2009 07:22 FabledIntegral wrote:
I really dislike how you seemingly just came up with an abitrary definition of 60% win rate. There are a lot of factors to include. I know you said it was just a rough arbitrary number, but I don't think you can place numbers on these at ALL.

On August 17 2009 07:35 GreEny K wrote:



Are you kidding me?? When Leta wins he absolutely DESTROYS his opponents, its not even close and he just abuses them. When he loses he gets demolished and doesnt do a single thing right though. BUT his TVT and TVZ are by far S class!!!! Like someone already said 6-7 against JD?! Yeah ok thats not S class. I think beating JD once should make you a fucking mogul in the eyes of any SC fan.

On August 17 2009 07:58 okum wrote:

If I make a list of players sorted by their win rate in a given matchup, it will correspond fairly well to how I would rank their skills subjectively. If I draw the line between the players I consider S-class and not S-class, that line ends up somewhere around 60%. Sure, there are many factors involved, but skill strongly correlates with win rate (I disagree about not being able to place numbers on this at all).

The justification is that the difference between being a 55% and 65% player really is huge, and not an arbitrary fluke. As I said, I'd be interested in quantifying this difference based on the players' win rate distribution, but I can't be arsed to write a TLPD scraper (let alone copy stats by hand). There are better ways to quantify skill than using such a crude measure as the total win rate; the win rate is mainly interesting because it's such a simple and convenient statistic.

On August 17 2009 08:00 Djabanete wrote:


Leta is not 6-7 against JD. 6-7 is a record I could respect. Unfortunately, Leta is an atrocious 0-6 against JD, which is why I laugh at anyone who claims Leta's TvZ to be S-class. S-class isn't just about rolling noobs, it's about hanging with the best.

To me Fantasy is sitting on the fence between A-class and S-class; to me he's the only player close to breaking into the elite Flash/JD/Bisu club (as Stork once did).

On August 17 2009 08:05 exeprime wrote:
Trying to statistically determine who's S-class and who's not seems silly to me. Percentages matter less when you fail in the important games - look at Leta, he might have great numbers, but if you fail against the best / never do much in individual leagues you can't be s-class...

+ Show Spoiler [gom spoiler] +

On August 17 2009 10:48 AzureEye wrote:
Sea has S class TvP?

I don't think Bisu has S class PvT
The Khan tosses hold the title to that

On August 16 2009 22:12 ArvickHero wrote:

Fantasy is not S-class TvZ lol..

On August 17 2009 11:09 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Fantasy has shown a remarkable ability to take single games away from Jaedong in proleague, but when they were matched in Bo5s he lost.

On August 17 2009 12:35 geod wrote:


Jeadong has shown a remarabke ability to steal Bo5 away from Fantashy in invidual league, but in Proleague when it counts the most, he lost to him miserably.

What is the differences between two above sentences???

On August 17 2009 12:54 koreasilver wrote:

Are you joking? Bo5 sets are a far greater testament to a player's abilities than random, single Proleague games.

On August 17 2009 10:48 AzureEye wrote:
I don't think Bisu has S class PvT
The Khan tosses hold the title to that

On August 17 2009 13:02 geod wrote:
Are you kidding? The opening (first) game and the ace (last) game in the grand final of pro league is a random, single game? This is the greatest testament to a player's abilities. Star league semi final is no match man.

On August 17 2009 13:03 TheYango wrote:

The Khan tosses have been playing terribly as of late. IMO S-class is a measure of current capabilities, not all-time career highs. Until they can step up and show they are still capable of playing at the top level, Bisu holds that spot.

At this point in time, the only Protosses I would bet on taking a set from Flash or Fantasy in PvT are Bisu and maybe Kal on a good day.


I believe the traditional argument that best-of sets are more reliable measures of skill are threefold:

1) They reduce the chance of luck wins
2) One cannot reliably cheese through a Bo5 set--generally this means the player with the stronger overall play will win out, whereas a weaker player can snipe a stronger player in single-game matches before the majority of their skill can be put to use.
3) It tests the player's mental fortitude over a longer period of game-time.

On August 17 2009 06:09 GTR wrote:
As a Progaming Historian, I disdain the use of 'x-Class' and 'Bonjwa'
Why? Because everyone has their own separate ideal for each of them.

On August 17 2009 16:11 Presony-Boy wrote:
lets look @ calm (from jan 1 2009)

44-19 (69.84%) overall
16-5 (76.19%) vs T
18-11 (62.07%) vs Z
10-3 (76.92%) vs P

if u say fantasy is S-class, what stops calm from being an S-class?

On August 17 2009 13:25 geod wrote:


1) How? The ratio of luck wins decrease? How?
2) Why not? Boxer Yellow, July Best, Jeadong Fantasy.
3) The proleague final is the most important thing in SC. This is the result of 1 year working of all member of a team. You fight not just for you, you fight for your teammates, for your sponsors, for your team. This is the highest pressure you can ever imagine. Just look at the Jaedong kid face when he got raped in Ace match and you got the point. Mental wise, individual league is just a joke compared to proleague final.

On August 17 2009 20:40 Navane wrote:
btw did you know both bisu, flash and jaedong have their mirror matchup as best matchup?

On August 17 2009 19:08 QibingZero wrote:


Are you really this clueless? It's clear you're just making a barely-veiled attempt to bash Jaedong here, and for no purpose whatsoever.

One game of starcraft does not mean as much as five - it's that simple. If you can win more often, you're the better player. Are you trying to say that Boxer could not beat Yellow straight up, or that July couldn't beat the sub-50% PvZ Best without a drone drill? Those are terrible examples. What's even worse is that you somehow think that Jaedong won through cheesing Fantasy in their recent bo5. I'm sure you'll attempt to call a 9pool cheese, and then claim that Jaedong's win in the OSL Finals vs Fantasy meant nothing as well.

On August 17 2009 20:23 SuperJongMan wrote:
I believe you're all being quite silly.

On August 17 2009 22:04 MannerMan wrote:
If fantasy had beaten jaedong this conversation would be completely different.

On August 17 2009 19:08 QibingZero wrote:


Are you really this clueless? It's clear you're just making a barely-veiled attempt to bash Jaedong here, and for no purpose whatsoever.

One game of starcraft does not mean as much as five - it's that simple. If you can win more often, you're the better player. Are you trying to say that Boxer could not beat Yellow straight up, or that July couldn't beat the sub-50% PvZ Best without a drone drill? Those are terrible examples. What's even worse is that you somehow think that Jaedong won through cheesing Fantasy in their recent bo5. I'm sure you'll attempt to call a 9pool cheese, and then claim that Jaedong's win in the OSL Finals vs Fantasy meant nothing as well.

On August 17 2009 22:14 sidesprang wrote:
bisu/flash/jaedong = s-class

effort/calm/fantasy = a+-class, anyone of those can become s-class if they keep up the good work.

leta was a+, but has dropped down to only a-class.

On November 08 2010 12:09 Lightwip wrote:
Right now I'd say Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash are S class. Effort was when he was still around, and Fantasy is just slightly under, something like S-(assuming he plays like he did at the end of last season). A step below would be Kal, Stork, and Zero because they are heavy slumpers.

On November 08 2010 10:19 jalstar wrote:

Kal (underdog vs Flash, fantasy, Jaedong, Calm, Horang2)

On November 08 2010 10:19 jalstar wrote:
I have a different definition for this. You have to look at a player's performance in relation to other players.

I propose that a player is S-class if no more than 2 players of each race are elo-favored against him.

So S-class now is:

Flash (no one favored against him)
Jaedong (only an underdog against Flash)
Kal (underdog vs Flash, fantasy, Jaedong, Calm, Horang2)

And fantasy is almost S-class (underdog vs Flash, Skyhigh, Jaedong, ZerO, Stork, BeSt, and Snow)

On November 08 2010 12:47 matjlav wrote:


That criteria is kind of disproven by Kal's presence in that list... he's simply not S-class.

I would just stick with the overall consensus that S-class players "just are" S-class.

On November 08 2010 12:02 Kimaker wrote:
Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Effort (if he was still playing)

Are all S class in my book. I look at them and EXPECT then to be able to ROFL-stomp any other players, excluding each other. Bisu I would have on that list, if not for his abysmal performance last season, but there's certainly no argument that Bisu was/has the potential to be S class again, and is looking to do just that given his recent tear.

Maybe:

Fantasy....maybe. I've never liked they guy, so I won't make a call because of my unnatural biases against his play.

On November 08 2010 15:28 Nitan wrote:
The best S class indicator is that you like the player. Your tastes are impeccable so it's inconceivable that a player you like is not S class, even if it's only S class in spirit.

On November 08 2010 15:39 Firereaver wrote:
Fantasy - Vs Zerg no way, no how S-class. Vs P and T - Easily S-class imo.

On November 08 2010 15:39 Firereaver wrote:Bisu? Yeah S-class but the eternal promise of past glory and the equally consistent failiure to live up to it is getting a bit much!

On November 08 2010 16:34 radialis wrote:
omg under that definition 2 zergs and only 1 terran and protoss are S-class! IMBA zerg

lol sorry :/ just doing what people always say about the bonjwas

On November 08 2010 19:54 Shana wrote:
the only s-class strait is playing mobile phone games instead of practicing but still dominating the opponent and being brutally honest about it on the winner's interview.

On November 08 2010 19:54 Shana wrote:
the only s-class strait is playing mobile phone games instead of practicing but still dominating the opponent and being brutally honest about it on the winner's interview.

On November 08 2010 19:54 Shana wrote:
the only s-class strait is playing mobile phone games instead of practicing but still dominating the opponent and being brutally honest about it on the winner's interview.

On November 08 2010 20:37 pvzvt wrote:

sorry to mess up your party but effort retired like a month ago

On November 08 2010 23:42 mierin wrote:


Haha, well said!