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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
On August 16 2009 22:25 okum wrote: Jaedong also definitely has S-class ZvT still. Agreed. He's at 2188 vT, so a 2180 cutoff would get him in there. It'd also get Fantasy's vP in, since that's at 2189 and I think we all agree Fantasy has S-class TvP. | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
On August 16 2009 22:28 StalkerSC wrote: Is this by Elo, KeSPA rankings or just some stupid thing you made up? You don't think Stork and Jangbi are S? I said precisely what I think in the original post. To clarify anyway: JangBi and Stork are definitely S-class in PvT; it's debatable whether they are S-class overall, at least right now that both are slumping (although both are showing signs of recovery, fortunately). | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
I think the list goes down that far (I included almost all 2180+ players on both lists), and there's only a slight difference in the % calculations between a 2180 player winning over a 2000 player as opposed to a 2200, as far as chance goes. I would say 2190 is the best markoff. Essentially, a 2200 player has a 76% chance of winning vs a 2000 player in that matchup. A 2190 has 75%, and a 2180 has 74% - that's my logic why 2190 would be best, as that's 3/4 of their games vs what should be average. (from this site : http://www.3dkingdoms.com/chess/elo.htm I honestly don't think Fantasy should be included due to his recent loss to Bisu, but that's just me. Very close either way, one win to 2190+, 2-3 for 2200. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
Leta is a fuckin monster. Fantasy, on the other hand, has one of the most fearsome MUs in the whole pro scene, I don't think anyone wants to face that guy PvT. I mean, the hell you gonna do to the kid that says "I don't know, TvP is just easy." and then proves it over and over. | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
S-class in one matchup: Yellow[arnc] Yarnc is S-class in ZvT and ZvZ :o. | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
Counting only the last year, he would qualify in ZvZ too, yes. He's had some horrible periods in the past, and that's a problem with only looking at the total win percentage. On the other hand his low total win rate can be taken to indicate an actual consistency problem. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
The only reason he has ever been called S-class in zvz is honestly because only he and JD were good recently and that yarnc's games vs JD were occasionally close. Right now you could make the case for Calm over Yarnc. Yarnc has 2131 elo in ZvZ, Calm 2145. It's just that his ZvT is ridiculous, the best of all time. Really, from looking at the list, Yarnc isn't even in the top 20 of zvz of all time. Yes, he could probably stomp yellow into the ground, but comparatively he's nowhere close to the original yellow in zvz. Luxury on the other hand, actually was. On August 16 2009 22:16 JWD wrote: Yeah, 6-7 vs. Jaedong in his career...kid's TvZ is clearly not S-class lol He's also 0-1 vs Hogil , 1-2 vs Odin, and 0-2 vs Shark., 1-2 vs zergbong. He also lost to Hyun. Fantasy is capable of beating great zvt players, however, he is not S-Class in it because he isn't very consistent to lowerclass players like Yarnc or Bisu are. A player like Leta isn't on it because while consistent vs lesser players, he isn't capable of keeping up with other S-class players. (So despite his 60%+ win rate, he has a terrible one vs Protoss dragons/JD/Fantasy/Skyhigh/Iris/etc.) | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
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KwarK
United States44451 Posts
He's autofavourite against anyone but JD and a coinflip against JD. What more do you want? | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:03 Kwark wrote: He's autofavourite against anyone but JD and a coinflip against JD. What more do you want? No, that's not right. Fantasy's ~50% record against JD is as good as it could be; it's the fact that Fantasy is only about 50% against other zergs (so definitely not autofavorite) that makes his TvZ questionable. And he's been ~50% both recently and in the past. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:03 Kwark wrote: He's autofavourite against anyone but JD and a coinflip against JD. What more do you want? For him to be even odds against Yarnc, which he isn't. JD isn't the gold standard for s TvZ, or even PvZ. No T playing right now can match Yarnc, with the closest being Flash, and we saw how that went their last game. Fantasy record, even recently, is too questionable to say he is the top level of TvZ - he lost to Calm and Hogil 2 months before playing Jaedong. It is fair to say that he may have evolved to the point that he has very good TvZ, but it's impossible to say right now if he is just very good vs Z or just good vs Jaedong, due to being able to dodge the mu in proleague. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Jaedong is proven and tested to WIN. BO5 series against Flash, Hwasin, Mind, Fantasy. Saying Yarnc has better ZvT than Jaedong is laughable. Until Yarnc starts winning BoX series vs STRONG terrans, I consider him just another Leta. You put your money with Jaedong to win series vs Terrans, not Yarnc. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:03 Kwark wrote: He's autofavourite against anyone but JD and a coinflip against JD. What more do you want? Definite underdog against Yarnc, underdog against Effort. Underdog against Kwanro most likely because of styles. On August 16 2009 23:18 Tien wrote: Yarnc's ZvT has not been tested in BoX series recently. Which is the gold standard for seperating the real progamers from the boys. Jaedong is proven and tested to WIN. BO5 series against Flash, Hwasin, Mind, Fantasy. Saying Yarnc has better ZvT than Jaedong is laughable. Until Yarnc starts winning BoX series vs STRONG terrans, I consider him just another Leta. You put your money with Jaedong to win series vs Terrans, not Yarnc. Beat flash 2-0, light 2-0, go.go 2-1... I don't think it really is his fault he doesn't get to play Bo5 vs Terrans. His ZvT I feel is definitely more reliable than Jaedong's, and I believe he's the best player against mech-style openings. I can't remember the last time I saw Yarnc lose to mech. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:18 Tien wrote: Yarnc's ZvT has not been tested in BoX series recently. Which is the gold standard for seperating the real progamers from the boys. Jaedong is proven and tested to WIN. BO5 series against Flash, Hwasin, Mind, Fantasy. Saying Yarnc has better ZvT than Jaedong is laughable. Until Yarnc starts winning BoX series vs STRONG terrans, I consider him just another Leta. You put your money with Jaedong to win series vs Terrans, not Yarnc. So you think Yarnc is less likely to beat Flash/Fantasy in a BoX series than JD? It's an interesting argument. However, it has little to no bearing on the particular case of Fantasy, as in series with JD fantasy is 3-6, it's only games outside of series that have let him be even in win/losses against him. For me, I think that Yarnc is much better vs mech than JD and that that is basically what the odds of them winning a series comes down to. (Do you also think JD is better v P than July? Because July has certainly been tested in this). | ||
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KasPra
Estonia983 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:19 Shikyo wrote: Definite underdog against Yarnc, underdog against Effort. Underdog against Kwanro most likely because of styles. I'd say he is the underdog against calm too (if they had time to prepare)  And i agree that fantasy's TvP is S-class while his other match ups are not.And i dont think Leta's TvZ is S-class because his 2 port kinda failed against Jaedong and it problably will too against other S-class ZvT'ers like yarnc. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:54 KasPra wrote: I'd say he is the underdog against calm too (if they had time to prepare) And i agree that fantasy's TvP is S-class while his other match ups are not.And i dont think Leta's TvZ is S-class because his 2 port kinda failed against Jaedong and it problably will too against other S-class ZvT'ers like yarnc. Not to mention he just lost to Type-b in the OSL. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
Bisu - Anyone doubt he's S-class? No. So he is S-class. Jaedong - Same as above Flash - Same as above... although he did come close to dropping out before today. Leta? Fantasy? Effort? Skyhigh What have they won? Fantasy comes close IMO, but no SL title is a pretty big stigma. The rest aren't even worthy of mention. IMO, the only other player who comes close to S-class is Stork. Because he has both accomplishment and top notch ability. His only problem is he got kicked out of both SL real quickly this season. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On August 16 2009 22:28 StalkerSC wrote: Is this by Elo, KeSPA rankings or just some stupid thing you made up? You don't think Stork and Jangbi are S? I would not consider them S-class right now. Stork was S-class and Jangbi was getting there, but they've both been slumping pretty hard. They're getting back on track, though. In my opinion Jaedong, Bisu and Flash are the only S-class players currently. They have the stats to back it up; at least 60% in all match-ups over a long period of time and 50+ wins in PL. That does indeed prove their consistency. But what truly separates them from players such as Leta or Effort is that they have Starleague titles to back it up, they have beaten top players in Bo5's on the biggest stage, not just bashed noobs like Orion in PL. Fantasy (and Effort, maybe) is closest to becoming S-class, but since he got knocked out by Bisu and Jaedong I feel that he's still one step behind. If I were to make a list it would look something like this (made without to much thought put into it): S-class: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu. They're the best of the best of the best and will be the favourite against anyone. Since there will be no more Bonjwas, the title should be reserved for a select few in order to make it as exclusive as possible and truly accentuate it's importance. A+: Fantasy, Leta, Effort, Calm, Stork, Jangbi. Super solid players who can take down S-class players (not with cheese or map imbalance, but through straight up play), and have definite potential to win a Starleague. A: Skyhigh, Iris, Yarnc, Zero, Kal, Free, etc. They stand out from the big blob of players beneath them on the list, but generally have a weak match up or something that will prevent them from going all the way. B: the avarage guy who will perform OK in PL, win 50% of his games, reach Ro16 or so in Starleagues but won't win anything. . . . . . . Z: Zergbong (how is he a progamer?) | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy and Flash are definitely S-Class players as they're favorites to win against pretty much anyone. Effort and Leta are pretty close up aswell. The rest of the players are A-class or B-class or whatever you want to call them and aren't really worth talking about. | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
On August 17 2009 00:34 FirstBorn wrote: Not to break anyone's bubble, but aren't we trying to hard and too often to label players ? S-class this, A-class that, Bonjwa this again. Almost every time one of these threads appear we're bassically talking about the same thing even if the subject should be slightly different. Of course! It's all a trick to have the same discussion all over again, because it's a fun one  | ||
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