EPTLOLOLOLOLOLOL
seriously though: Fantasy is an S-Class player. Although his stats might not say so, percentage isn't thjat important
and johanes, stop spoiling games@!
S-class indicator - Page 4
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
LOLOLOLOLOLOL seriously though: Fantasy is an S-Class player. Although his stats might not say so, percentage isn't thjat important and johanes, stop spoiling games@! | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2228 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:10 JWD wrote: fhd;ajsfhjdklsahfjkdlsahfjkdasfdasfdasf Fantasy didn't play in GOM (nobody on T1 could) Flash lost in the OSL Ro16 (Fantasy went 3-0 and then 2-0 to get to the semis) Ok then i could argue that Flash lost only a single game trough GOM tourney. Today, for me Fantasy is not S-class, but you may have different opinion. Future games will decide. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:09 johanes wrote: on the contrary, Fantasy is way to much overrated, today you could see difference between S-class and the others: Flash - decisively winnig a title and recently Fantasy - choking in semis Dunno, I find it hardly Fantasy's fault that he 1) Can't play in GOM, 2) Got bounced by Bisu in MSL quarters, 3) Got bounced by Jaedong in OSL semis. Flash on the other hand had trouble making the quarters and semis of MSL and OSL. He was able to advance far in GOM because well there just weren't as many good players in the pool. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:13 MrHoon wrote: But Fantasy is made of SILVER LOLOLOLOLOLOL see all you guys should take debate lessons from MrHoon | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:04 JWD wrote: Oh come on, the last line was an exaggeration I stuck on there  The point stands that Fantasy is pretty wildly underrated at TL...no JD and this guy would in all likelihood be a 2-time OSL champ. Even with JD around he's a 2-time finalist and just led his team to a PL Championship.Well, if you put it this way, Stork would be Bonjawa with 4 SL titles if he didn't ran into the bad luck of meeting Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash at their peak.  Come on, in the end Fantasy still has to win something. On August 17 2009 02:04 dinmsab wrote: So i guess your saying Stork is S- ? I kinda agree on that. I feel Stork was S-class for quite a while, when he got PL win, MSL Ro8, OSL win, MSL Ro4, OSL Ro8. Currently he doesn't fit because PvZ is his worst matchup, and the maps these days are awesome zerg maps. But he'll be S class again if he starts winning though. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:16 baubo wrote: Well, if you put it this way, Stork would be Bonjawa with 4 SL titles if he didn't ran into the bad luck of meeting Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash at their peak. Yes that's true, but irrelevant because I wouldn't try to argue that Stork was not S-class at the time of each of those losses. The point wasn't to show how good "fantasy Fantasy" is, but to argue that people come down too hard on him for two Bo5 losses to the most monstrous player ever. | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:14 Roffles wrote: Dunno, I find it hardly Fantasy's fault that he ... 2) Got bounced by Bisu in MSL quarters, 3) Got bounced by Jaedong in OSL semis. Flash on the other hand had trouble making the quarters and semis of MSL and OSL. Flash got bounced by Jaedong and Yarnc from OSL; wasn't that also "not his fault" then? MSL, on the other hand... but, as far as bogus arguments go, you could argue that Flash's overschedule by also having GOM led him to lose in the MSL, so that wasn't his fault  | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:08 JWD wrote: Of course you weren't saying he sucks...that comment was exaggeration and not directed at you specifically That Fantasy doesn't dominate lesser players like your Big Three is a really good point, but the mere fact that he doesn't have a title is totally irrelevant to whether he is S-class if you consider who his opponents were...No, it is not irrelevant. It says quite a lot; it tells us that he loses against true S-class players (Stork (he was S-class then), Jaedong twice and Bisu) in Bo5's. A Starleague title is neccesary to be defined as S-class in my opinion. Getting a lot of PL-wins (Fantasy fails there as well in comparison to the big guns) etc simply doesn't prove enough. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:20 okum wrote: Flash got bounced by Jaedong and Yarnc from OSL; wasn't that also "not his fault" then? MSL, on the other hand... but, as far as bogus arguments go, you could argue that Flash's overschedule by also having GOM led him to lose in the MSL, so that wasn't his fault Yeah Roffles minced his words a tiny bit, but you get his point: Fantasy a) couldn't play in GOM b) lost in OSL/MSL to players tougher than those Flash had to face for most of his GOM run. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
1  Bisu: 75-30 (71.43%)2  Calm: 44-19 (69.84%)3  Flash: 66-29 (69.47%)4 Jaedong: 89-41 (68.46%)5 EffOrt: 49-25 (66.22%)6 fantasy: 45-26 (63.38%)7 Kwanro: 31-18 (63.27%)8 sKyHigh: 37-22 (62.71%)9 YellOw[ArnC]: 41-26 (61.19%)10 Iris: 38-25 (60.32%)11 Hwasin: 36-25 (59.02%)12 Leta: 46-33 (58.23%)13 JangBi: 43-31 (58.11%)14 Light: 37-27 (57.81%)15 Canata: 24-18 (57.14%)16 Kal: 34-26 (56.67%)17 ZerO: 41-36 (53.25%)18 Stork: 37-34 (52.11%)calm and effort had many opponents as hard as fantasy's, you can't really claim fantasy is s-class without admitting that they are as well | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 17 2009 00:28 Holgerius wrote: I would not consider them S-class right now. Stork was S-class and Jangbi was getting there, but they've both been slumping pretty hard. They're getting back on track, though. In my opinion Jaedong, Bisu and Flash are the only S-class players currently. They have the stats to back it up; at least 60% in all match-ups over a long period of time and 50+ wins in PL. That does indeed prove their consistency. But what truly separates them from players such as Leta or Effort is that they have Starleague titles to back it up, they have beaten top players in Bo5's on the biggest stage, not just bashed noobs like Orion in PL. Fantasy (and Effort, maybe) is closest to becoming S-class, but since he got knocked out by Bisu and Jaedong I feel that he's still one step behind. If I were to make a list it would look something like this (made without to much thought put into it): S-class: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu. They're the best of the best of the best and will be the favourite against anyone. Since there will be no more Bonjwas, the title should be reserved for a select few in order to make it as exclusive as possible and truly accentuate it's importance. A+: Fantasy, Leta, Effort, Calm, Stork, Jangbi. Super solid players who can take down S-class players (not with cheese or map imbalance, but through straight up play), and have definite potential to win a Starleague. A: Skyhigh, Iris, Yarnc, Zero, Kal, Free, etc. They stand out from the big blob of players beneath them on the list, but generally have a weak match up or something that will prevent them from going all the way. B: the avarage guy who will perform OK in PL, win 50% of his games, reach Ro16 or so in Starleagues but won't win anything. . . . . . . Z: Zergbong (how is he a progamer?) I agree whole heartedly with this. BoX series and starleague titles is what seperates S class players from wannabes. Proleague may be important, but real progamers are not made in the proleagues, they're made in the OSL / MSL. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:26 Tien wrote: Proleague may be important, but real progamers are not made in the proleagues, they're made in the OSL / MSL. Unless you're some sort of insider in the Korean SC scene, you are not in a position to make this declaration with any authority, and it's especially silly considering that players, coaches, broadcasters, the majority of fans...basically the entire SC scene is now more concerned with Proleague than individual leagues. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 17 2009 01:54 JWD wrote: Fantasy vs. Jaedong: 6-7Fantasy vs. Bisu: 3-2Fantasy vs. Flash: 2-4Cumulative: 11-13 (46%) Not in the same league? Come on. Why the hell does everyone think Fantasy sucks? Because he doesn't have what it takes to win starleagues, that's why. Atleast not yet. The big 3 players are winners in the MSL / OSL. Fantasy is not. | ||
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
When our savior and leader ( YellOw) of the team has never won a Kespa Sanctioned League in his whole life period.Fantasy is an S-Class player. JWD is right, Fantasy lost 2 BO5's against Jaedong yet we here are discrediting him. My god this is Jaedong we're talking about. In my honest opinion, if Flash/JD and Bisu/JD played a BO5 right now I would bet all my money on JD even though I am a hardcore Flash fan. But one thing I don't agree with is this whole "Flash might've not won Gom if SKT was here" argument is just plain stupid. SKT made a choice and they stuck with that choice of playing in Proleague. This is like if I say right now "WELL GEE SKT FANS, IM PRETY SURE IF FLASH WAS PLAYING INSTEAD OF JAEDONG SKT WOULD'VE NEVER WON THE ACE MATCHES THEREFORE WE CAN'T SAY WHAT REALLY WOULD'VE HAPPENED" | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:20 okum wrote: Flash got bounced by Jaedong and Yarnc from OSL; wasn't that also "not his fault" then? MSL, on the other hand... but, as far as bogus arguments go, you could argue that Flash's overschedule by also having GOM led him to lose in the MSL, so that wasn't his fault That's laughable. On August 17 2009 01:41 Heggie wrote: Perhaps this is a stupid question, what is the origin of the term S class? why S? The name "S-Class" derives from the German word "Sonderklasse" of which "S-Class" is an abbreviation. Sonderklasse means "special class" (or rather: "In a class of its own") So essentially, if any other player plays at the same level of them in that matchup, they're not S-class. Bisu - yes, he's the best protoss. Jaedong - best ZvZ. July/Yarnc make it hard to say that his other two are, but his ridiculous win % in ZvZ makes him clearly overall S and the better player (Until the OSL final and we get a more definitive answer). Flash, yep. Technically, Fantasy isn't S-class in anything, going by statistics, winrate, or anything but a different definition of S-class. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:28 JWD wrote: Unless you're some sort of insider in the Korean SC scene, you are not in a position to make this declaration with any authority, and it's especially silly considering that players, coaches, broadcasters, the majority of fans...basically the entire SC scene is now more concerned with Proleague results than individual league results. We will remember SKT 1 as the best proleague team out there. But we won't remember Fantasy for anything until he wins starleagues. Remember Yellow? Yellow was neck to neck with Boxer / Nada in games, but he was never on their level. He could not win a starleague. Praise what you want about the proleague. Effort and Leta both made huge contributions to their teams in the proleague, but they are overshadowed by the Flash / Jaedong / Bisu for 1 reason: They have ZERO starleagues under their belt. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:35 Tien wrote: We will remember SKT 1 as the best proleague team out there. But we won't remember Fantasy for anything until he wins starleagues. Remember Yellow? Yellow was neck to neck with Boxer / Nada in games, but he was never on their level. Praise what you want about the proleague. Effort and Leta both made huge contributions to their teams in the proleague, but they are overshadowed by the Flash / Jaedong / Bisu for 1 reason: They have ZERO starleagues under their belt. People definitely remember Yellow. I mean, yarnc idolized him and copied his name. People remember Sea too, but the difference is that Yellow actually did really well in SLs and lost very close series at the highest levels - OSL+ Show Spoiler + if Fantasy had gone 3-2 against JD instead of 3-1, it would be more in his favor, especially if the games had all been razor-edge close. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On August 17 2009 02:35 Tien wrote: We will remember SKT 1 as the best proleague team out there. But we won't remember Fantasy for anything until he wins starleagues. Wrong. We'll remember him for shocking us with a 3-0 of Bisu in the Batoo OSL, for his unforgettable OSL series against Jaedong, for going 3-0 in the Finals of the most epic Proleague season ever and returning T1 to PL glory, and, oh, how about for his use of the mech build that revolutionized the way TvZ is played? Remember Yellow? ...yes, Yellow is one of the most celebrated SC players of all time. Yellow was neck to neck with Boxer / Nada in games, but he was never on their level. Contradiction. If intentional, please explain. Praise what you want about the proleague. Effort and Leta both made huge contributions to their teams in the proleague, but they are overshadowed by the Flash / Jaedong / Bisu for 1 reason: They have ZERO starleagues under their belt. ...maybe according to your warped standards of what determines an S-class player. In my mind, they are overshadowed (a strong word, considering often Effort and Leta have overshadowed Flash/JD/Bisu) by Flash, JD, and Bisu because they are generally less accomplished (that includes PL and deep Starleague runs). | ||
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On August 16 2009 21:59 Ver wrote: You can't do this by stats though. i,e Leta is not S class in anything. Fantasy is S class TvZ. If you go by stats you have people like Leta/Skyhigh grouped with Fantasy lol. Basically it's pretty obvious when someone is S class overall (the top 5) or has an S class matchup (Yarnc/July). Kinda like being a bonjwa. You just are. Funny that you'd say that considering Fantasys TvZ is his least good matchup. He is the best TvP player in the world right now and second only to Flash in TvT. While his TvZ makes him duke it out on a fairly even level with the top zergs its still his least consistent matchup. Even if he is creative in it he doesn't win all those games. I would add all the slumping players to S-Class player list aswell since they in their prime (which is recently) have been as good or almost as good as the best are right now. So basically players like Luxury, ForGG, Kal, Best, Jangbi, Stork, July, Mind. Notice that these are all player with solid play and no extremely weak matchups. | ||
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