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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On June 12 2009 15:01 lolaloc wrote: EffOrt (IPXZerg 3.0) Changelog - Adrenal Glands no longer glitches - Micro and macro efficiency improved - Copied mechanics from Jaedong (modded version of IPXZerg 2.0) | ||
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Nal_CrayOn
600 Posts
I hope we see savior more on iccup due to his teammate  (or we didn't find savior's aka yet t.t) | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote: I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not. If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players. Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate. So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll. Variance? Do you even know what it is? This is Starcraft, not Poker. In Poker, ANYONE can beat even the top professionals in a hand because of the variance. But try to use the variance to get a D level player beat an A-level progamer. It will never happen. Get a clue please, Starcraft is a skill-based game, and most of the "luck" in it is actually masked mindgames. It's not like you get dealt a random build and have to go with what you're dealt. You can choose what build to do yourself. The only luck factor is the uphill miss-chance. Can you honestly tell me that that's been the reason for most of Effort's victories? | ||
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QuickStriker
United States3694 Posts
On June 12 2009 15:01 lolaloc wrote: EffOrt (IPXZerg 3.0) Changelog - Adrenal Glands no longer glitches - Micro and macro efficiency improved - Copied mechanics from Jaedong (modded version of IPXZerg 2.0) i lol'd | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
He already showed us that he can play a very high level game (vs Bisu @ Medusa) so it was just a matter of time until he started to break through and become a force. | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
In all seriousness his handling of common in game situations and zergs famous timing weaknesses is perfect. IMO, he very obviously has studied jaedong very carefully some of his play is identical but the thing that amazes me more is that unlike jaedong he WANTS to go lategame vs everybody. He is fearless. There has never been a zerg that says "I'm ok going toe to toe on even footing every game' before. None of our favorites do that. I love jaedong, I think he is the best zerg of all time but as a student of zerg there is only so much I can learn from jaedong, he makes all kinds of very situational adapatations and timing attacks that I am sometimes left thinking "oh my god I can rape on iccup doing that" and then I login and fail horribly and don't exactly understand why (I know I suck but I can't figure out how HE won doing it) Effort is my second favorite player now because he doesn't feel the need to steal games he forces himself to just win them. Not only does he play very strong but his play is understandable. I understand how effort plays and why he does certain things and it is easier to learn from "Play good and you win" .... it sounds durrr but he makes zvp and zvt seem so much more balanced. Effort future in SL's will be decided by luck and nerves. There is definately no pro gamer who he couldn't beat in a match right now (I'm not saying he is a favorite vs flash,jaedong,bisu,fantasy at all). These are exciting times to be a zerg fan. I just can't wait until you all stop calling him neo-savior. He is something entirely different. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On June 12 2009 15:18 gk_ender wrote: ok i guess ill lay it out IM NOT SAYING EFFORT IS BAD, im saying he doesnt deserve the hype train. Effort has taken out these players in the last month Stork (sucks at pvz) Jd, Flash, and July (who doesnt really do amazing at zvz) Bisu has taken down Jd, Hiya (i put hiya on bisu's list bc his tvz is like 45% and his tvp his 64%), Jangbi, Effort (ironic), Leta, Zero, Calm Jd has beaten Skyhigh, Leta, and every zerg besides effort thats my point (and i wasnt saying flash doesnt have the same caliber ability, i was saying that flash is in his best form right now, if flash were at his full shape, he would be rocking everbody) Dunno bout you, but him taking down Flash and Jaedong is pretty good. I'll be more convinced if he manages to do it more often and on a frequent basis to prove that he really can hang with the S class gamers. Needs to prove to me that he can beat the best PvZer in Bisu and show some consistency in Starleagues before I give him the sticker of S class. Great player now, just needs to show it in the leagues. If he's another Sea who keeps failing to make it past the round of 16, then stats mean nothing. | ||
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why
United States215 Posts
On June 12 2009 15:44 Shikyo wrote: Variance? Do you even know what it is? This is Starcraft, not Poker. In Poker, ANYONE can beat even the top professionals in a hand because of the variance. But try to use the variance to get a D level player beat an A-level progamer. It will never happen. Get a clue please, Starcraft is a skill-based game, and most of the "luck" in it is actually masked mindgames. It's not like you get dealt a random build and have to go with what you're dealt. You can choose what build to do yourself. The only luck factor is the uphill miss-chance. Can you honestly tell me that that's been the reason for most of Effort's victories? Variance doesn't just have to do with that sort of luck (although it seems hard to argue that build orders before scouting aren't partially luck...are you trying to tell me that rock-paper-scissors is a totally skill-based game?). It also has to do with the fact that everyone has a range of skill levels at which they might perform in any given game. Everyone has games they play great and games in which they play like crap. In my own experience at least, it is basically random chance whether I'll play well in a given game or not; sometimes I'm on, other times I'm just not. Effort's streak may just be due to a prolonged streak of him having particularly good games. This doesn't mean that he has lost the ability to play crap games or that his underlying skill level has changed. In the same vein, effort may have just had a streak of playing against players who were having off-days. And since he and everyone he has faced off against are progamers, this sort of variance is definitely a factor; pretty much any progamer can beat any other progamer given that one is having an off-day and the other is having an on-day (jjonga/movie > jaedong are some recent examples). In fact, given a large enough statistical sample, it is likely that someone will have a streak as good as this, just by virtue of having a string of on-days while his/her opponents have off-days. This is not to take away from effort's accomplishments. I think the guy has really improved and is definitely playing excellently. But most streaks as impressive as this will be in part due to random variance and I don't think this one is any different. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I don't see why people write off Leta so easily. Everyone's first starleague is hard. | ||
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Creationism
China505 Posts
It's not the same as oov's 27-0 tvz run with star titles coupled in. Is that random variance? no. that's pure domination. but is this impressive 25-3 run by effort somewhat affected by variance in both his and his opponent's gameplay? yes. | ||
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Marine50
Australia1764 Posts
On June 12 2009 19:27 SuperJongMan wrote: Leta and Effort are both gonna be big. I don't see why people write off Leta so easily. Everyone's first starleague is hard. I agree. Lwta reminds me of Flash when he first came to the scene. Leta will explode soon just like effort and they both will dominate | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5656 Posts
On June 12 2009 14:56 Jayme wrote: Keep in mind that Effort is 25-3 please... playing against progamers. That sort of consistency is hard to maintain, especially with the level of play nowadays. Not only that but nearly all of his 25 wins are complete rapes of proportions not seen since Flash went two port wraiths against Protoss because he was bored with progames. VOD, please? I haven't seen that game.  | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
Against Bisu on Troy... although he got raped, I agree that he probably just did it because he knew how badly he was going to roll Bisu the next 3 games. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
cheking now well this is the best i've got http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=424&part=games&vs=all&league=any&map=any&from_year=2008&from_month=2&from_day=23&to_year=2008&to_month=6&to_day=12&action=Update 29-5. I think the most insane percetage was produced by Oov | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On June 12 2009 19:27 SuperJongMan wrote: Leta and Effort are both gonna be big. I don't see why people write off Leta so easily. Everyone's first starleague is hard. no offense soyu but usually legendary players won their first sl. (Bisu, Savior (he won his first msl in his 2nd sl but still ok), Nada, Boxer, oov, July, Jaedong and so on.. | ||
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Kinavca
29 Posts
Every single impressive winning streak includes a lot of weak opponents Effort still trumps everyone else's Effort is already at the top, most feared player in the world right now | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=5&part=games&vs=all&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=10&from_day=20&to_year=2004&to_month=2&to_day=3&action=Update 29-3 | ||
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DragoonPK
3259 Posts
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