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Too good to say it's random.
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An awesome streak to be sure, the victory over Jaedong is some delicious icing on the cake. Notably he lost to Bisu, I remember watching that game and thinking that even though EffOrt was playing well he seemed to be outclassed by Bisu. I think that after the GomClassic, MSL and OSL are over we'll be able to see if EffOrt is the real deal or if he is just on one of the hottest streaks ever. Nevertheless it's impressive and I hope he continues to dominate.
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Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better.
+ Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt
I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about.
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It's impressive, but titles are what really determines a player's worth at the end of the day. I'll respect Effort as a legitimate Starleague contender when he whens a Bo5 in the MSL or OSL.
Not taking away from how he's been playing, of course.
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On June 12 2009 06:52 SuperArc wrote:
Too good to say it's random.
... that's actually the opposite of how stats works
Not denying that Effort is a great player but claiming that variance isn't involved is pretty farfetched
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
25 wins - 3 losses (89.29%)
how good is that? beat the boss of zvz jd, flash, shows such ridiculous zvt, this is rarity.
this streak is better than any bonjwa's, just didn't win or progress too far in any SL yet.
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Its very clear that he is playing amazing. The Cj house used to talk about their new young superstar and that was a long time ago. If you have watch his games you understand why he is so good. The game against Flash was just "WTF just happen". But of course no player can substain his form for ever.
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How can people still say he's lucky? wtf...
He's becoming a monster!
EFFORT HWAITING!
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
BTW since he started pretty strong and has this insane streak early, his career overall win % may end up being the highest ever at least on TLPD. 66.25% now, it will improve.
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i was just remarking the other day how effort's sick performance is possible while kwanro (who was first hyped to become someone good) and of course savior, are struggling. they likely all have he same practice hours/regimen, what makes effort stand out so much compared to his teammates (which includes a former bonjwa) like this? just natural talent?
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Savior using his time to improve Effort of course!
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I believe he is on a great streak, and this has come with lots of improving and a bit of luck
Last year´s MSL or OSL finalist had a winning rate of 75% during their last month, and Effort is in that way, but I fear that he might choke the same way Flash did on 1st quarter 2008, when he got beated in MSL and OSL semis, and lost GOMTV Season1 in a fashion 3-0 vs JD
Definitely, a new star is rising. The next leader in CJ Entus
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 12 2009 07:06 SuperArc wrote:
Savior using his time to improve Effort of course!
I won't be surprised if Savior realized his brain and hands are too slow now and actually really helping Effort to grow, especially in mind games and strategies knowledge.
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On June 12 2009 07:04 PanoRaMa wrote:
i was just remarking the other day how effort's sick performance is possible while kwanro (who was first hyped to become someone good) and of course savior, are struggling. they likely all have he same practice hours/regimen, what makes effort stand out so much compared to his teammates (which includes a former bonjwa) like this? just natural talent?
Progamers have set practice schedules but there's nothing preventing them from practicing more than their schedule dictates. In his interview with Bisu, Jaedong implied that at one point, he was practicing ~15 hours per day. Of course, it's entirely possible that Effort is naturally talented. I would really like to see some interviews with him =D
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On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about.
Uh WHAT?
his array of victories isn't full of no names either.
Stork Mind Luxury (allthough he sucks) Flash Jaedong etc.
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On June 12 2009 07:09 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:06 SuperArc wrote:
Savior using his time to improve Effort of course! I won't be surprised if Savior realized his brain and hands are too slow now and actually really helping Effort to grow, especially in mind games and strategies knowledge.
I doubt Savior's brain is too slow, but yeah, he just doesn't have the mechanics all top players have.
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On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about.
Yeah, beating Jaedong, Luxury, Stork, free, Mind, Hiya, July, fOrGG, and Flash means NOTHING. Seriously, anyone could do this. Even fucking tester could go on a 10 game streak playing scrubs like the ones Effort has played. God, may as well get some random BGHer on East to play these people - no doubt he would at least go 50/50.
qft man, qft
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It's more impressive if you've watched all of these games. Some skill is hard to quantify but you can just feel it unfolding in the match. He is one badass mofo to put it lightly.
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On June 12 2009 07:11 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about. Uh WHAT? his array of victories isn't full of no names either. Stork Mind Luxury (allthough he sucks) Flash Jaedong etc.
Out of 25 wins about 6 of them were vs impressive players. The rest were scrubs.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 12 2009 07:17 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:11 Jayme wrote:On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about. Uh WHAT? his array of victories isn't full of no names either. Stork Mind Luxury (allthough he sucks) Flash Jaedong etc. Out of 25 wins about 6 of them were vs impressive players. The rest were scrubs.
Almost no one on that list is a scrub, most are above average pros.
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I'm actually not sure which part of FabledIntegral's post people are objecting to. It seems pretty reasonable to me.
"Scrubs" is probably exaggeration, but he has a valid point that assuming Effort is close to/at Bisu/JD level, then most of his opponents in that streak were severe underdogs
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On June 12 2009 07:17 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:11 Jayme wrote:On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about. Uh WHAT? his array of victories isn't full of no names either. Stork Mind Luxury (allthough he sucks) Flash Jaedong etc. Out of 25 wins about 6 of them were vs impressive players. The rest were scrubs.
So what? 6 impressive wins, 19 less impressive wins, and 3 losses to worthy opponents --- what are you trying to say?
In my book that's an amazing record.
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27-0 oov on zerg :D unless that dont count T.T
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On June 12 2009 07:28 geegee1 wrote:
27-0 oov on zerg :D unless that dont count T.T
yeah but that was just vs zerg, there were interspersed losses vs other races in there. I still think oov's start might be better, though.
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
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On June 12 2009 07:25 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:17 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 12 2009 07:11 Jayme wrote:On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about. Uh WHAT? his array of victories isn't full of no names either. Stork Mind Luxury (allthough he sucks) Flash Jaedong etc. Out of 25 wins about 6 of them were vs impressive players. The rest were scrubs. So what? 6 impressive wins, 19 less impressive wins, and 3 losses to worthy opponents --- what are you trying to say? In my book that's an amazing record.
It is an amazing record. Just not an unprecedented one.
Leta was running hot similarly with a record of 24-3 earlier this year
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/185_Leta/games#tblt-3786-3-1-DESC
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While Effort has improved greatly, and in my opinion is on his way of contending Jaedong in the future, do not forget that the maps generally favor Zergs these days, and he may have been lucky here and there.
CJ fighting anyway !
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I voted on effOrt being amazing. Anyone who can take games off Flash, Stork, July, and Jaedong is brilliant.
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It's a good run of matches on a pretty favorable set of maps. He's good to be sure, very good even, but I really can't see him hanging with the big boys deep in a starleague yet. He reminds me of a zerg version of Leta.
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When you look at the opponent list, it isn't that special.
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On June 12 2009 07:16 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about. Yeah, beating Jaedong, Luxury, Stork, free, Mind, Hiya, July, fOrGG, and Flash means NOTHING. Seriously, anyone could do this. Even fucking tester could go on a 10 game streak playing scrubs like the ones Effort has played. God, may as well get some random BGHer on East to play these people - no doubt he would at least go 50/50. qft man, qft
Dont mess with  Tester, he has 100% wins against  Jaedong AND  Flash.
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United States10774 Posts
On June 12 2009 07:41 rushz0rz wrote:
When you look at the opponent list, it isn't that special.
What the fuck? I am by no means a fan of EffOrt or CJ but I don't understand how you can say this. He beat Flash, Stork, Jaedong, Mind, and several other good players. The three losses come from Bisu at his best PvZ ,Yellow's ZvZ, and Mind in which EffOrt won the series anyway. What he's doing right now is very special and impressive. I honestly don't know what you guys expect to see. Consecutive BO3 victories against Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash? Of course he still has lots to prove, at least until he wins or comes close to winning an individual title. Still, it's pretty amazing.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Effort wins because he is Savior's apprentice. Unlike the other zergs out there. Effort does 3 hatch every game, truly Savior style.
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United States2186 Posts
From what I've seen Effort's ZvT does not resemble Savior's at all (i,e he lacks Savior's tactical brilliance but makes up for it with ridiculous mechanics).
Can anyone recommend some vods that show Effort's ZvT at his best?
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Yeah this guy is no joke. He has beaten alot of good names. Mind in a bo3 Baby Hiya Forgg FLASH.
Those are just some terrans.
Protoss, free, Stork, and Pure(who was really strong quite some time ago). Oh yeah Sangho is no joke either. You can't think he is bad. He's got alot of talent.
Lux Jaedong Hyvaa and July. Come on those guys are writing the BOOK on zvz. You can't say this is random. He is just under the radar, and thats the scariest opponent when you do not know how good they really are and they don't get that much attention. I mean, sure everyone knows Jaedong. But Effort is more dismissed when you hear his name. Hes probably the main reason CJ is so high ranked in proleague this season.
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United States10774 Posts
MSL
+ Show Spoiler +His game vs HiyA was pretty damn good. It was complete dominance though.
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He's been beating StarLeague winners. Thats more than enough proof this guy is someone to watch besides the three giants in Jaedong Flash and Bisu. Thats not to say he will win them during individual leagues. But he is punching the clock, day in day out. Get outta here naysayers.
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United States13896 Posts
On June 12 2009 07:50 Ver wrote:
From what I've seen Effort's ZvT does not resemble Savior's at all (i,e he lacks Savior's tactical brilliance but makes up for it with ridiculous mechanics).
Can anyone recommend some vods that show Effort's ZvT at his best?
His game vs Flash in PL a while back was the best I've ever seen his ZvT imo.
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I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On June 12 2009 07:46 Guybrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:16 Fontong wrote:On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about. Yeah, beating Jaedong, Luxury, Stork, free, Mind, Hiya, July, fOrGG, and Flash means NOTHING. Seriously, anyone could do this. Even fucking tester could go on a 10 game streak playing scrubs like the ones Effort has played. God, may as well get some random BGHer on East to play these people - no doubt he would at least go 50/50. qft man, qft Dont mess with Tester, he has 100% wins against Jaedong AND Flash.
Holy shit, Tester really is undefeated vs Jaedong and Flash. That's pretty creepy.
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On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about.
no one said effort was better than bisu/jaedong.
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Just watch his play. It's clearly skill that has gotten him this streak. He displays immaculate mechanics, timing, and strategy along with the star-sense of a master.
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Braavos36372 Posts
cj house is interesting, i think they practice very hard but often their younger players have nerves on TV. this was the case with kwanro (who recently seems to be doing better) and also skyhigh, who did great on offline prelims (like 14-0 to start) but was bad his first few TV matches.
effort has been the best zerg on CJ for quite some time now, almost 9 months:
On October 28 2008 04:39 Hot_Bid wrote:
Yes, it was the Zerg-favored Raid Assault, but MJY is 3-0 in PL and 5-0 since "The Destroyer Proclaimation". Savior winning was great, but I was actually way more excited by EffOrt's play. After steamrolling a generic SKT1 Zerg, EffOrt faced off in the ace match against Oov's golden boy and crushed Fantasy's "revolutionary" valkyrie build as if he was Mao ZeDong reincarnated. I can't wait to watch this kid more. If you want to watch more EffOrt, check out the first game of his GOM series with Hwasin.
here is what i think about him:
On December 04 2008 06:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
let me explain something about effort, and why there's so much good feeling about him. effort is irrevocably tied to savior. he is his true apprentice, his home grown little brother. idra says that savior loves effort, i'm sure even more than the coaches do. he's more like a young, modern savior than kwanro or jy or orion ever was. he's his heir. when cj fans and savior fans watch effort, we see a young ma jae yoon, someone with infinite possibilities and whose play reminds us so much of the old maestro its scary. most of all, when we watch effort play, we remember. we remember a dominant ma jae yoon who had been so abruptly taken from us. we remember the savior who we wish so badly to return. before bisu, before FBH, before his current painful struggles. effort represents both hope for the future and the legacy of the past, merged into one talented, hard working, fierce looking kid.
i am basing this solely off of what i see during CJ proleague matches, but the kid cares. he's a team player, he's humble, and he's come up through one of the most difficult team practice systems out there. ever since the team-ceremonies that xellos, much, and iris did to stick it to FBH when savior was slumping, i've loved CJ more and more. effort is a continuation of that and of all the things i've mentioned above with relation to our memories of savior. even his name is representative of this. his choice of ID is not one that represents a sun god or jesus or even something that's cool like bisu or shark. it's an ID that embodies the CJ spirit more than anything. it's all you need to be a good teammate, to win. if CJ could be embodied in one noun, it'd be effort.
to us CJ fans, he means much more than just the next big zerg player.
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Meh, it's a pretty impressive streak, but you really must take a good luck at just who he has been playing. Sure, he has had quite a few big wins against the top players on the scene right now, but that only counts for a small portion of the 28 games you listed. What about all the filler in between?
+ Show Spoiler +doctor.k (lol)
ganzi (lol)
free (2-8 oh boy)
hyun (3-7 woah!)
lucifer (even better 1-9)
forgg (nuff said)
pure (2-8)
ruby*2 (2-8)
july (3 zvz wins in the past year)
bogus (who?)
baby (3-7 watch game against JD for lulz)
hiya (hiya's TvZ T_T)
He has certainly come a long way in these 28 games considering that he was on a 5 game losing streak going into them, but imo he is still only top 5. It is going to be very interesting to see if he can keep this up through the SL's and earn a title.
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bisu and jaedong are still better than effort.
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On June 12 2009 08:06 Hot_Bid wrote:cj house is interesting, i think they practice very hard but often their younger players have nerves on TV. this was the case with kwanro (who recently seems to be doing better) and also skyhigh, who did great on offline prelims (like 14-0 to start) but was bad his first few TV matches. effort has been the best zerg on CJ for quite some time now, almost 9 months: Show nested quote +On October 28 2008 04:39 Hot_Bid wrote:
Yes, it was the Zerg-favored Raid Assault, but MJY is 3-0 in PL and 5-0 since "The Destroyer Proclaimation". Savior winning was great, but I was actually way more excited by EffOrt's play. After steamrolling a generic SKT1 Zerg, EffOrt faced off in the ace match against Oov's golden boy and crushed Fantasy's "revolutionary" valkyrie build as if he was Mao ZeDong reincarnated. I can't wait to watch this kid more. If you want to watch more EffOrt, check out the first game of his GOM series with Hwasin. here is what i think about him: Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 06:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
let me explain something about effort, and why there's so much good feeling about him. effort is irrevocably tied to savior. he is his true apprentice, his home grown little brother. idra says that savior loves effort, i'm sure even more than the coaches do. he's more like a young, modern savior than kwanro or jy or orion ever was. he's his heir. when cj fans and savior fans watch effort, we see a young ma jae yoon, someone with infinite possibilities and whose play reminds us so much of the old maestro its scary. most of all, when we watch effort play, we remember. we remember a dominant ma jae yoon who had been so abruptly taken from us. we remember the savior who we wish so badly to return. before bisu, before FBH, before his current painful struggles. effort represents both hope for the future and the legacy of the past, merged into one talented, hard working, fierce looking kid.
i am basing this solely off of what i see during CJ proleague matches, but the kid cares. he's a team player, he's humble, and he's come up through one of the most difficult team practice systems out there. ever since the team-ceremonies that xellos, much, and iris did to stick it to FBH when savior was slumping, i've loved CJ more and more. effort is a continuation of that and of all the things i've mentioned above with relation to our memories of savior. even his name is representative of this. his choice of ID is not one that represents a sun god or jesus or even something that's cool like bisu or shark. it's an ID that embodies the CJ spirit more than anything. it's all you need to be a good teammate, to win. if CJ could be embodied in one noun, it'd be effort.
to us CJ fans, he means much more than just the next big zerg player.
I love the 2nd post and agree wholeheartedly
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i noticed that about 1-2 weeks ago and was following his match list since then^^
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Hot Bid, that post brought a tear to my eye. Neo Savior fighting!
Idra, if you ever read this, some insider information would be greatly appreciated. How good is he in practice? Does he really have a mentor/mentee relationship with savior?
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I am all for Effort and he is playing very well lately. However, he still will not be at the very top until he makes it into the final of a starleague.
Great player, anyway.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On June 12 2009 08:24 JohnBall wrote:
I am all for Effort and he is playing very well lately. However, he still will not be at the very top until he makes it into the final of a starleague.
Great player, anyway.
i think this goes without saying, of course he will have to win a league in order to be at the very top
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effort is a beast, #2 zerg only behind Jaedong for sure
btw, am i going blind? where is everyone seeing "Effort is better than jaedong/bisu!" obviously bisu/jd are the kings of starcraft, but Effort is next inline for jaedong's throne
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Since I play zerg and love to cheer for them, I hope he does better on his first real run in a SL than Leta did.
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On June 12 2009 08:06 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +let me explain something about effort, and why there's so much good feeling about him. effort is irrevocably tied to savior. he is his true apprentice, his home grown little brother. idra says that savior loves effort, i'm sure even more than the coaches do. he's more like a young, modern savior than kwanro or jy or orion ever was. he's his heir. when cj fans and savior fans watch effort, we see a young ma jae yoon, someone with infinite possibilities and whose play reminds us so much of the old maestro its scary. most of all, when we watch effort play, we remember. we remember a dominant ma jae yoon who had been so abruptly taken from us. we remember the savior who we wish so badly to return. before bisu, before FBH, before his current painful struggles. effort represents both hope for the future and the legacy of the past, merged into one talented, hard working, fierce looking kid.
i am basing this solely off of what i see during CJ proleague matches, but the kid cares. he's a team player, he's humble, and he's come up through one of the most difficult team practice systems out there. ever since the team-ceremonies that xellos, much, and iris did to stick it to FBH when savior was slumping, i've loved CJ more and more. effort is a continuation of that and of all the things i've mentioned above with relation to our memories of savior. even his name is representative of this. his choice of ID is not one that represents a sun god or jesus or even something that's cool like bisu or shark. it's an ID that embodies the CJ spirit more than anything. it's all you need to be a good teammate, to win. if CJ could be embodied in one noun, it'd be effort.
to us CJ fans, he means much more than just the next big zerg player.
Wow that really sums up what I think about Effort ànd CJ, couldn't have said it better. :o I love CJ and what CJ stands for as a team, I admire Effort and what Effort stands for as a player.
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Effort reminds me a lot of Leta during his dominating Proleague days. Of course, the calibur of the Leta's opponents can be argued to be less than that of Effort's, but the comparison is still somewhat valid.
He boasted a similiar record of something like 25-4:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 12 2009 08:54 DarkOptik wrote:Effort reminds me a lot of Leta during his dominating Proleague days. Of course, the calibur of the Leta's opponents can be argued to be less than that of Effort's, but the comparison is still somewhat valid. He boasted a similiar record of something like 25-4: + Show Spoiler +
And Leta started sucking after Savior schooled him. <3
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Effort made his debut by beating down Tossgirl 2-0 in GOM...I remember...haha.
Then everyone was talking shit on Tossgirl for getting owned by a complete nobody no one had ever heard of.
Then Effort started making waves...and now this??
The guy is a great player.
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United States11390 Posts
On June 12 2009 08:59 PH wrote:
Effort made his debut by beating down Tossgirl 2-0 in GOM...I remember...haha.
Then everyone was talking shit on Tossgirl for getting owned by a complete nobody no one had ever heard of.
Then Effort started making waves...and now this??
The guy is a great player.
No, Effort actually lost a game to Tossgirl.
He has come so far since then~
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no random varience could do could account for this awesome win streak. If you think its only out of 28 occurances, you have to take into account every great play in every game that has made this guy win.
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Katowice25012 Posts
PL/GOM winrates tend to be inflated for players who are above average, so the chance of it being random variance is considerably higher than it looks.
That being said he has looked very good against tough opponents so it feels pretty safe to say hes a beast.
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On June 12 2009 07:59 HooHa! wrote:
I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do.
I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not.
If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players.
Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate.
So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll.
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Effort is definitely improving very quickly. Savior is definitely doing to EffOrt what iloveoov did to Fantasy, and there is great improvement 
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my theory is Jaedong and EffOrt have switched skins and thats why EffOrt is doing well now, that or hes dramatically improved.
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Btw I posted this in the MSL live report thread, but didn't really get a response.
So anyway, before Effort's games last night, he was at 2269 ELO, and is now sitting pretty at 2280 ELO.
So out of curiosity, and for some hype. How many more games would he have to win consecutively to break 2300? I guess it depends on his next round opponent (who is it most likely to be?) and who he plays in PL. But I'm thinking 4? wins against decent opponents or 5?
HYPE HYPE HYPE - Effort to join ranks of 2300+ ELO players - HYPE HYPE HYPE
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Let's just hope Savior and Effort won't have to play each other in the MSL...
Effort might lose deliberately then.
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On June 12 2009 08:09 Fr33t wrote:Meh, it's a pretty impressive streak, but you really must take a good luck at just who he has been playing. Sure, he has had quite a few big wins against the top players on the scene right now, but that only counts for a small portion of the 28 games you listed. What about all the filler in between? + Show Spoiler +doctor.k (lol)
ganzi (lol)
free (2-8 oh boy)
hyun (3-7 woah!)
lucifer (even better 1-9)
forgg (nuff said)
pure (2-8)
ruby*2 (2-8)
july (3 zvz wins in the past year)
bogus (who?)
baby (3-7 watch game against JD for lulz)
hiya (hiya's TvZ T_T) He has certainly come a long way in these 28 games considering that he was on a 5 game losing streak going into them, but imo he is still only top 5. It is going to be very interesting to see if he can keep this up through the SL's and earn a title.
i really really wish people would just completely stop keeping track of statistics
watch his fucking games
he is playing ridiculously fucking good and you sit there bitching that his list of opponents isnt strong enough
WATCH HIM PLAY
goddamn
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On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:59 HooHa! wrote:
I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do. I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not. If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players. Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate. So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll.
Some sports, like tennis, have ridic winrates.
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On June 12 2009 09:37 SuperArc wrote:
Let's just hope Savior and Effort won't have to play each other in the MSL...
Effort might lose deliberately then.
Even if he tried to Savior would still lose. Sorry savior fanbois.
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Effort is definitely one of the best Zerg players on the scene. He always showed some promise ever since that period where a lot of new Zerg players started showing up since the end of 2v2, although for a little while his ZvT was kinda dismal.
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lol at powerrank putting effort over bisu though, or even jaedong.
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I can't wait for Effort to get trashed in all three starleagues. Then this sillly hype will finally stop. I remember last season with Leta tearing it up in the Proleague and then being hyped for the Starleagues.
Effort is only going to be Leta level and he's getting overhyped because of a hot streak in the Proleagues.
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On June 12 2009 09:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 08:09 Fr33t wrote:Meh, it's a pretty impressive streak, but you really must take a good luck at just who he has been playing. Sure, he has had quite a few big wins against the top players on the scene right now, but that only counts for a small portion of the 28 games you listed. What about all the filler in between? + Show Spoiler +doctor.k (lol)
ganzi (lol)
free (2-8 oh boy)
hyun (3-7 woah!)
lucifer (even better 1-9)
forgg (nuff said)
pure (2-8)
ruby*2 (2-8)
july (3 zvz wins in the past year)
bogus (who?)
baby (3-7 watch game against JD for lulz)
hiya (hiya's TvZ T_T) He has certainly come a long way in these 28 games considering that he was on a 5 game losing streak going into them, but imo he is still only top 5. It is going to be very interesting to see if he can keep this up through the SL's and earn a title. i really really wish people would just completely stop keeping track of statistics watch his fucking games he is playing ridiculously fucking good and you sit there bitching that his list of opponents isnt strong enough WATCH HIM PLAY goddamn
This.
Also:
On June 12 2009 08:15 B1nary wrote:
Hot Bid, that post brought a tear to my eye. Neo Savior fighting!
Idra, if you ever read this, some insider information would be greatly appreciated. How good is he in practice? Does he really have a mentor/mentee relationship with savior?
Care to comment Idra? Please please.
On June 12 2009 09:47 Mind_Slicer wrote:
I can't wait for Effort to get trashed in all three starleagues. Then this sillly hype will finally stop. I remember last season with Leta tearing it up in the Proleague and then being hyped for the Starleagues.
Effort is only going to be Leta level and he's getting overhyped because of a hot streak in the Proleagues.
He's into the round of 16 in all three leagues, and I think coming up from the offlines in all three? (Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe not GOM at least).
That's pretty impressive already.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On June 12 2009 09:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 08:09 Fr33t wrote:Meh, it's a pretty impressive streak, but you really must take a good luck at just who he has been playing. Sure, he has had quite a few big wins against the top players on the scene right now, but that only counts for a small portion of the 28 games you listed. What about all the filler in between? + Show Spoiler +doctor.k (lol)
ganzi (lol)
free (2-8 oh boy)
hyun (3-7 woah!)
lucifer (even better 1-9)
forgg (nuff said)
pure (2-8)
ruby*2 (2-8)
july (3 zvz wins in the past year)
bogus (who?)
baby (3-7 watch game against JD for lulz)
hiya (hiya's TvZ T_T) He has certainly come a long way in these 28 games considering that he was on a 5 game losing streak going into them, but imo he is still only top 5. It is going to be very interesting to see if he can keep this up through the SL's and earn a title. i really really wish people would just completely stop keeping track of statistics watch his fucking games he is playing ridiculously fucking good and you sit there bitching that his list of opponents isnt strong enough WATCH HIM PLAY goddamn
Exactly! (Although IdrA, despite the fact that you might know better than anyone else here, you'll be accused of obvious bias...)
What kind of point is it to show all the bad players EffOrt's played recently? So what? He beat them didn't he? Can you seriously argue that EffOrt IS a bad player because he crushes bad players?
This would be a valid argument if EffOrt hadn't knocked off good players like... uh... Jaedong, Stork, Luxury, Mind, hyvaa, UpMaGiC, great, and Flash in the same period. Unfortunately, I didn't just make that list up, those are players EffOrt has stomped since the 19th of April.
EDIT: IdrA, do you have a good nickname for EffOrt? I think he looks like a zerg, is that fair? "Alien" seems to be the front runner, with the more formal; "Neo-savior"
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It's like he leveled up after CJ won the WL finals
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On June 12 2009 09:47 IdrA wrote:
really good and yes
Badass. Thanks Idra.
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It's also interesting to note that Effort is one of the few Zerg players that still goes 3hatch in ZvT regularly.
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United States11390 Posts
On June 12 2009 10:00 koreasilver wrote:
It's also interesting to note that Effort is one of the few Zerg players that still goes 3hatch in ZvT regularly.
I saw him do 2hat builds in GOM and was like wat the fuck.
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On June 12 2009 09:26 StalkerSC wrote:my theory is Jaedong and EffOrt have switched skins and thats why EffOrt is doing well now, that or hes dramatically improved.
The latter.
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Effort really is a good player. I remember watching half an hour of effort vs bisu nonstop harassment. I was suprised how well effort fended off bisu's attacks although bisu won
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On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:59 HooHa! wrote:
I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do. I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not. If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players. Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate. So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll.
Sure variance is involved, it has to be, thats why the game has survived many incarnations and 11 years of competitive play. But RANDOM is the key word, go watch his game and rot with your reason. I double dare you to watch the games. he's gonna be a killer for sure. One that is under the radar.
Edit: ok sorry, I don't mean rot and die, but I think this guy should be watched because there is a real reason why he got so many wins like this, and it shouldn't be dismissed too quickly.
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His playing is extremely impressive, but there is some amount of random variance obviously...
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On June 12 2009 10:07 HooHa! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote:On June 12 2009 07:59 HooHa! wrote:
I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do. I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not. If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players. Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate. So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll. Sure variance is involved, it has to be, thats why the game has survived many incarnations and 11 years of competitive play. But RANDOM is the key word, go watch his game and rot with your reason. I double dare you to watch the games. he's gonna be a killer for sure. One that is under the radar. Edit: ok sorry, I don't mean rot and die, but I think this guy should be watched because there is a real reason why he got so many wins like this, and it shouldn't be dismissed too quickly.
Yes, I am seriously not denying any of this. I've watched him outclass Flash in the endgame and dismantle Stork. I know he's playing unreal well. I'm not trying to argue against that -___-
I'm just trying to argue against all the people (which includes you) that are like "if you say that variance is partially responsible then you are an idiot"
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there are good players in there that he beat, but there are quite a few random shitty players in there too
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win a title or go home.
future zerg Leta maybe.
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On June 12 2009 10:21 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 10:07 HooHa! wrote:On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote:On June 12 2009 07:59 HooHa! wrote:
I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do. I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not. If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players. Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate. So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll. Sure variance is involved, it has to be, thats why the game has survived many incarnations and 11 years of competitive play. But RANDOM is the key word, go watch his game and rot with your reason. I double dare you to watch the games. he's gonna be a killer for sure. One that is under the radar. Edit: ok sorry, I don't mean rot and die, but I think this guy should be watched because there is a real reason why he got so many wins like this, and it shouldn't be dismissed too quickly. Yes, I am seriously not denying any of this. I've watched him outclass Flash in the endgame and dismantle Stork. I know he's playing unreal well. I'm not trying to argue against that -___- I'm just trying to argue against all the people (which includes you) that are like "if you say that variance is partially responsible then you are an idiot"
That's not even the point, plus I didn't say whoever thought it was responsible was an idiot. I said they didn't know what they are talking about. Doesn't mean they are an idiot. Good you watched him kick trash. Thats good.
I don't think he is on the lucky side of the die though. I mean, that game versus Hiya was just brutal. Hiya played fine, his reactions were very, but he just got destroyed, he couldn't get a solid attack out because he lost his army twice to hold lurks.
Eh whatever.
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The back end of his record is pretty much powder puff, but I'm definitely impressed with his more recent matches.
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I haven't read through the entire thread, but Leta had a streak of 23-3/25-4 at one point, as well as another streak of 22-3 (including prelims, and 2 of those losses were to Jaedong... IN THE PRELIMS... what shitty luck lol) between 11-30-08 and 1-22-09 (including 23-3), with wins against overall more impressive players. It is also worth noting that Leta was never considered to be anyone's protege, in fact he was initially a Savior sniper (if I recall my SC history correctly). He was also thought to be SHIT (I know I thought so lol) before he went on a 9 game winning streak with wins against Kal, Bisu, Best, Forgg (when he remembered how to play), Hiya, and Kal again to pretty much shock the SC world.
Personally, looking at who Effort is supposed to be modeled after, and looking at the team he is on (and the zergs of that team especially), I'm not as impressed with Effort's win streak as I am with Leta's, coming out of NOWHERE on a team with absolute SHIT terrans (lol Justin and go.go) and leading his team to the finals of the proleague out of NOWHERE. Leta's streak is better than Effort's, in my eyes, considering that it wasn't some one time thing. Leta plays quite literally every single match for hite, and keeps a record rivaling that of Flash Jaedong and Bisu. Where was this thread when Leta was rolling?
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On June 12 2009 07:46 Guybrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:16 Fontong wrote:On June 12 2009 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Personally, if you look at WHO he has beaten, it isn't a highly impressive array of victims. No doubt he's absolutely tearing it up, but at the same time, I think there's little question that Jaedong and Bisu are still better. + Show Spoiler +Jaedong dropping one game doesn't mean shittt I voted an equal mix of random + effort improving. He's prob a top 5 player now though, underneath Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, and one other random player I'm not thinking about. Yeah, beating Jaedong, Luxury, Stork, free, Mind, Hiya, July, fOrGG, and Flash means NOTHING. Seriously, anyone could do this. Even fucking tester could go on a 10 game streak playing scrubs like the ones Effort has played. God, may as well get some random BGHer on East to play these people - no doubt he would at least go 50/50. qft man, qft Dont mess with Tester, he has 100% wins against Jaedong AND Flash.
^^ This. ESTRO HWAITING!!!
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Did you miss all the Leta love and hype or something? He was given the appropriate appreciation when he started to emerge and after he emerged.
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On June 12 2009 10:47 KnightOfNi wrote:
hurrhurrhurridontknowanythingaboutbroodwar
letas good, but alot of his wins were off of his gimmicky/nonstandard playstyle, he cooled down significantly as soon as he started hitting starleague competition and people got to analyze him more.
you cant really find a game where effort makes a bad decision. his play is so ridiculously smart, and his mechanics so good, that hes not gonna drop off just cuz people start figuring him out. theres nothing to figure out. hes just playing better than everyone else.
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His game against Hiya in MSL was pretty sick, I'm not gonna lie. He needs to advance further into a league to prove himself imo. Flash v. Effort BO5 would be better than Flash v. Jaedong BO5 imo because both have macro styles.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 12 2009 10:55 Vasoline73 wrote:
His game against Hiya in MSL was pretty sick, I'm not gonna lie. He needs to advance further into a league to prove himself imo. Flash v. Effort BO5 would be better than Flash v. Jaedong BO5 imo because both have macro styles.
Nah, nothing beats Flash v. Jaedong BOx. But i would like Effort to do something is SLs and to actually develop a rivalry with someone good, preferably terran, maybe teammate skyhigh :p. Though it's hard, nobody is playing on his level other than the big 3.
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On June 12 2009 10:54 IdrA wrote:letas good, but alot of his wins were off of his gimmicky/nonstandard playstyle, he cooled down significantly as soon as he started hitting starleague competition and people got to analyze him more. you cant really find a game where effort makes a bad decision. his play is so ridiculously smart, and his mechanics so good, that hes not gonna drop off just cuz people start figuring him out. theres nothing to figure out. hes just playing better than everyone else.
I wouldn't go as far as saying "cooled down significantly". He still maintains a record of WELL over 60%, including the 2nd highest record vs terran, the 2nd highest record vs zerg (with over 30 games), and has righted his TvP (which started 2-8, is above 50% now only 25ish games later). It also shouldn't matter that he has a gimmicky playstyle, wasn't that how Boxer was? Nal_ra? It is a style that WINS GAMES, and that is all that matters. True, Effort has looked strong in his games recently, I'm not discounting that, I'm just saying that Leta's rise to me was more impressive. I may have a different opinion if Effort and Leta play a Bo5 in the MSL/OSL (they are both in both... SWEET) and Effort assrapes Leta and goes on to win both startleagues, but as of now, with the current games to go by, I'm still just more impressed with Leta's streak, more because of who Effort is and who he is supposed to be compared to Leta coming from nowhere to rock the shit outta pretty much everything lol.
I hope you realize that I'm not criticizing or even questioning that Effort is playing ridiculously well right now, I'm just setting idea the point that Leta's streak is better in hindsight, atm.
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On June 12 2009 10:47 KnightOfNi wrote:
Where was this thread when Leta was rolling?
He got his own TLFE instead.
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Russian Federation134 Posts
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The only thing close to this I can think of was Flash's 27-4 (which is 87%, two-ish percent less over 3 more games -- but more importantly it's a streak that breaks the 30 game threshold). So basically Effort just has to win two of his next three games to convincingly shatter Flash's best run, seeing as he already beat Jaedong's 24-3. Dude's amazing.
And breaking that record shouldn't be hard considering one of his next match ups is ZvZ versus, heh, 815. :3
Edit-- Woops, nevermind, I think the OP got it wrong thusfar. Oov's got a 26-3 (3-10-02 to 4-01-08), that could obviously be shortened down to 25-3, record that goes onto 32-4(3-10-02 to 04-02-03). I wasn't watching SC back in 03 so I didn't remember that, but as far as TLPD is concerned, Oov seems to still have the best streak
But hell, Effort's a shoe in for the next match so he's prone to break Oov's best 30 game record in the modern, much more competitive scene. That, in and of itself, is a bigger feat.
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wow the effort fanboyism in here is astounding.
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On June 12 2009 07:47 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:41 rushz0rz wrote:
When you look at the opponent list, it isn't that special. What the fuck? I am by no means a fan of EffOrt or CJ but I don't understand how you can say this. He beat Flash, Stork, Jaedong, Mind, and several other good players. The three losses come from Bisu at his best PvZ ,Yellow's ZvZ, and Mind in which EffOrt won the series anyway. What he's doing right now is very special and impressive. I honestly don't know what you guys expect to see. Consecutive BO3 victories against Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash? Of course he still has lots to prove, at least until he wins or comes close to winning an individual title. Still, it's pretty amazing.
Sorry. 
I guess I am biased because I hate every single Zerg and hope they all do the worst possible. Also, for the record, I never intended to call him a bad player at all, he is a good player.
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Combination of him being way better in a short period and people not realizing it yet in order to prepare as much for him / study him for weak points. Plus, he's peaking in a zerg map peak and sometimes players get these streaks from easy competition but Efforts had a reasonably tough schedule to withhold such comments.
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People are just hating because he looks like he is part of the Zerg race.+ Show Spoiler + I wasn't surprised at all when he beat Jaedong, he is definitely a great player now, although I don't like him at all lol
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Katowice25012 Posts
On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate.
This is sort of interesting when you dig through the differences between proleague/individual league stats. Its pretty common right now for "S-class players" or whatever you call them to have absurd winrates. Bisu is on the upper end at 80% vs all, but flash/jaedong/leta/effort all have mirror winrates that are upwards of 80% (and vs all rates of 70+). 80% is probably too high but I suspect is remarkably close to what his "expected" winrate would be against the typical proleague competition.
Probably not anything useful to make out of the stat because the explanation is the obvious "individual leagues have better people and more intense training" thing.
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The more I look at Effort's streak, the less impressive it is. With obvious exception to Jaedong and Flash, almost everyone he beat was is either mediocre at best or slumping.
Don't get me wrong, beating Jaedong and Flash is absolutely absurd, especially when they're part of a streak like this, but the majority of his streak seems a little less than stellar. His first 8 wins up to Flash are all pretty damn easy -- his logically toughest match was ZvZ versus Great which, honestly, isn't saying much. His next 8 wins up until his loss against Mind, his toughest match up is actually worth noting, ZvZ verus Hyvaa who is no slouch. But the other seven are also not what I'd call cream of the crop.
But hell, I can see why he just recently got the PR. The top part of his streak has Stork, Jaedong and Hiya in it. His wins over Mind and Luxury aren't that great considering just how hard the two are slumping, and Baby is awesome but overhyped, but still, the streak seems...I dunno, a little less amazing than just the numbers themselves felt.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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I would say he's definately improved but maps also helped him seeing as how recent maps favor Zerg
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 12 2009 13:20 AzureEye wrote:
I would say he's definately improved but maps also helped him seeing as how recent maps favor Zerg
I'd say maps are rather balanced at least regarding zvt. zvp garden is hard for protoss, but hertbreak is hard for zerg. This set of maps is like perfect.
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Invincibility is hard to maintain and hyping things up is no good.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 12 2009 13:26 Fresol wrote:
Invincibility is hard to maintain and hyping things up is no good.
Why? It's fun, why care about anything if there is no hype to it?
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I dont think this a completley fair statistic. Yes he has a fantastic record on the games uve shown, but is that really honestly fair? Hes simply PLAYED more games than most. For example, Bisu. Hes only played 20 games since the last osl. Hes not in gom, and he gets put in a group of death for his msl, a group with only one type of matchup. The reason thats important is this, bisu practically wins evergame in the spl, against every race, and has to prepare for each, while kal jangbi and free only have to prepare for there one macthup. Effort really hasnt gotten contested as he eats away at the A class gamers. Let him play a best of 5 against JD and then ill say ok uve got the better zvz, but seriosuly jds zvz is something like 80%. Its probably his least prepared matchup, and when he losses he losses to effort, well, i mean, doesnt jd have to lose eventually. Effort simply hasnt gotten contested, look who hes played. Yes flash is in there, but Flash says is tvz is his best but his tvp and tvt stats beg to differ. The only reaaaaaaaaaal great win for him were jd and upmagic on that list. Sorry, too early to be calling him anything amazing. When he has an 80% proleague record over 5 rounds, then I'll proudly claim him the best.
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Lol if you look at the first 9 people he played (bottom 9 in the pic), they're not even worth mentioning (besides maybe 1). I praised your effort in trying to make him look like a god though.
EDIT: I agree with the post above me, one game cannot decide where one stands. If you put him in a Bo5 against anyone would tell us something different.
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Again my point is effort is a darkhorse, he doesnt have ppl practicing endlessly to snipe him( bisu), he doesnt face the best a team has got ever damn game, and he doesnt do it twice in a night everygame (jd).
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He has been consistent he has improved alot. Also beating big names.
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On June 12 2009 14:48 oneill wrote:
He has been consistent he has improved alot. Also beating big names.
Im not knocking effort, but the effort hype train needs to end. Hes good, hes damn good. But there are players right now that are still miles ahead of him. Good job effort, if thats what you want to hear. He has improved amazingly. But hes no bonjwa, and no bisu or jd, hell not even a flash.
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On June 12 2009 09:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 08:09 Fr33t wrote:Meh, it's a pretty impressive streak, but you really must take a good luck at just who he has been playing. Sure, he has had quite a few big wins against the top players on the scene right now, but that only counts for a small portion of the 28 games you listed. What about all the filler in between? + Show Spoiler +doctor.k (lol)
ganzi (lol)
free (2-8 oh boy)
hyun (3-7 woah!)
lucifer (even better 1-9)
forgg (nuff said)
pure (2-8)
ruby*2 (2-8)
july (3 zvz wins in the past year)
bogus (who?)
baby (3-7 watch game against JD for lulz)
hiya (hiya's TvZ T_T) He has certainly come a long way in these 28 games considering that he was on a 5 game losing streak going into them, but imo he is still only top 5. It is going to be very interesting to see if he can keep this up through the SL's and earn a title. i really really wish people would just completely stop keeping track of statistics watch his fucking games he is playing ridiculously fucking good and you sit there bitching that his list of opponents isnt strong enough WATCH HIM PLAY goddamn
"[Spoilers] Effort's record"
The whole thread is about effort's stats, don't jump to the last page next time. Nice of you to stick up for your CJ boy though 
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On June 12 2009 14:51 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 14:48 oneill wrote:
He has been consistent he has improved alot. Also beating big names. Im not knocking effort, but the effort hype train needs to end. Hes good, hes damn good. But there are players right now that are still miles ahead of him. Good job effort, if thats what you want to hear. He has improved amazingly. But hes no bonjwa, and no bisu or jd, hell not even a flash.
Uh like who?
First off how dare you claim Flash isn't at the level of Bisu or JD, this already harms your credibility. Tsk tsk tsk!
Look with all seriousness there are maybe three players I would consider better than Effort and "miles ahead" is a big stretch. Flash, Bisu, and JD because of their performance in BoX's are most likely better than Effort when you get down to it... but not by miles.
No one claimed Effort was the next Bonjwa or anything but they are claiming that he might just be the next big zerg to walk the path along with Jaedong for awhile.
Keep in mind that Effort is 25-3 please... playing against progamers. That sort of consistency is hard to maintain, especially with the level of play nowadays. Not only that but nearly all of his 25 wins are complete rapes of proportions not seen since Flash went two port wraiths against Protoss because he was bored with progames.
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Effort has a lot of potential. A LOT.I haven't been so hyped about a new player since Bisu beat savior in GOMTV S1. He's consitend and seems to be improving really fast. He didn't even play 100 games and he's already got 66% career win rate.
Hopefully he'll perform as good in the individual leagues as he's doing in proleague. Being a proleague monster isn't as hard as winning bo3's or bo5's.
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EffOrt (IPXZerg 3.0)
Changelog
- Adrenal Glands no longer glitches
- Micro and macro efficiency improved
- Copied mechanics from Jaedong (modded version of IPXZerg 2.0)
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Honnestly, EffOrt is making an excellent job. His control map / skill and other stuffs are improving. Yesterday in the MSL, he showed only his part of his skill. He will be an impressive Zerg soon.
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On June 12 2009 14:56 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 14:51 gk_ender wrote:On June 12 2009 14:48 oneill wrote:
He has been consistent he has improved alot. Also beating big names. Im not knocking effort, but the effort hype train needs to end. Hes good, hes damn good. But there are players right now that are still miles ahead of him. Good job effort, if thats what you want to hear. He has improved amazingly. But hes no bonjwa, and no bisu or jd, hell not even a flash. Uh like who? First off how dare you claim Flash isn't at the level of Bisu or JD, this already harms your credibility. Tsk tsk tsk! Look with all seriousness there are maybe three players I would consider better than Effort and "miles ahead" is a big stretch. Flash, Bisu, and JD because of their performance in BoX's are most likely better than Effort when you get down to it... but not by miles. No one claimed Effort was the next Bonjwa or anything but they are claiming that he might just be the next big zerg to walk the path along with Jaedong for awhile. Keep in mind that Effort is 25-3 please... playing against progamers. That sort of consistency is hard to maintain, especially with the level of play nowadays. Not only that but nearly all of his 25 wins are complete rapes of proportions not seen since Flash went two port wraiths against Protoss because he was bored with progames.
ok i guess ill lay it out
IM NOT SAYING EFFORT IS BAD, im saying he doesnt deserve the hype train.
Effort has taken out these players in the last month
Stork (sucks at pvz) Jd, Flash, and July (who doesnt really do amazing at zvz)
Bisu has taken down
Jd, Hiya (i put hiya on bisu's list bc his tvz is like 45% and his tvp his 64%), Jangbi, Effort (ironic), Leta, Zero, Calm
Jd has beaten
Skyhigh, Leta, and every zerg besides effort
thats my point
(and i wasnt saying flash doesnt have the same caliber ability, i was saying that flash is in his best form right now, if flash were at his full shape, he would be rocking everbody)
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On June 12 2009 15:01 lolaloc wrote:
EffOrt (IPXZerg 3.0)
Changelog
- Adrenal Glands no longer glitches
- Micro and macro efficiency improved
- Copied mechanics from Jaedong (modded version of IPXZerg 2.0)
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praciting a lot on iccup pays him off in proleague.
I hope we see savior more on iccup due to his teammate (or we didn't find savior's aka yet t.t)
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On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:59 HooHa! wrote:
I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do. I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not. If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players. Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate. So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll.
Variance? Do you even know what it is? This is Starcraft, not Poker. In Poker, ANYONE can beat even the top professionals in a hand because of the variance. But try to use the variance to get a D level player beat an A-level progamer. It will never happen.
Get a clue please, Starcraft is a skill-based game, and most of the "luck" in it is actually masked mindgames. It's not like you get dealt a random build and have to go with what you're dealt. You can choose what build to do yourself. The only luck factor is the uphill miss-chance. Can you honestly tell me that that's been the reason for most of Effort's victories?
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On June 12 2009 15:01 lolaloc wrote:
EffOrt (IPXZerg 3.0)
Changelog
- Adrenal Glands no longer glitches
- Micro and macro efficiency improved
- Copied mechanics from Jaedong (modded version of IPXZerg 2.0)
i lol'd
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I don't think he improved that much. I think it is just he has become quite comfortable playing on stage and can show his true skill level.
He already showed us that he can play a very high level game (vs Bisu @ Medusa) so it was just a matter of time until he started to break through and become a force.
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Wait until ro8 of starleagues guys, he will probably fail like leta imo, when opponents are no scrubs.
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Effort is THE zerg that every non-korean zerg should be watching.
In all seriousness his handling of common in game situations and zergs famous timing weaknesses is perfect.
IMO, he very obviously has studied jaedong very carefully some of his play is identical but the thing that amazes me more is that unlike jaedong he WANTS to go lategame vs everybody. He is fearless. There has never been a zerg that says "I'm ok going toe to toe on even footing every game' before. None of our favorites do that.
I love jaedong, I think he is the best zerg of all time but as a student of zerg there is only so much I can learn from jaedong, he makes all kinds of very situational adapatations and timing attacks that I am sometimes left thinking "oh my god I can rape on iccup doing that" and then I login and fail horribly and don't exactly understand why (I know I suck but I can't figure out how HE won doing it)
Effort is my second favorite player now because he doesn't feel the need to steal games he forces himself to just win them. Not only does he play very strong but his play is understandable. I understand how effort plays and why he does certain things and it is easier to learn from "Play good and you win" .... it sounds durrr but he makes zvp and zvt seem so much more balanced.
Effort future in SL's will be decided by luck and nerves. There is definately no pro gamer who he couldn't beat in a match right now (I'm not saying he is a favorite vs flash,jaedong,bisu,fantasy at all).
These are exciting times to be a zerg fan. I just can't wait until you all stop calling him neo-savior. He is something entirely different.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On June 12 2009 15:18 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 14:56 Jayme wrote:On June 12 2009 14:51 gk_ender wrote:On June 12 2009 14:48 oneill wrote:
He has been consistent he has improved alot. Also beating big names. Im not knocking effort, but the effort hype train needs to end. Hes good, hes damn good. But there are players right now that are still miles ahead of him. Good job effort, if thats what you want to hear. He has improved amazingly. But hes no bonjwa, and no bisu or jd, hell not even a flash. Uh like who? First off how dare you claim Flash isn't at the level of Bisu or JD, this already harms your credibility. Tsk tsk tsk! Look with all seriousness there are maybe three players I would consider better than Effort and "miles ahead" is a big stretch. Flash, Bisu, and JD because of their performance in BoX's are most likely better than Effort when you get down to it... but not by miles. No one claimed Effort was the next Bonjwa or anything but they are claiming that he might just be the next big zerg to walk the path along with Jaedong for awhile. Keep in mind that Effort is 25-3 please... playing against progamers. That sort of consistency is hard to maintain, especially with the level of play nowadays. Not only that but nearly all of his 25 wins are complete rapes of proportions not seen since Flash went two port wraiths against Protoss because he was bored with progames. ok i guess ill lay it out IM NOT SAYING EFFORT IS BAD, im saying he doesnt deserve the hype train. Effort has taken out these players in the last month Stork (sucks at pvz) Jd, Flash, and July (who doesnt really do amazing at zvz) Bisu has taken down Jd, Hiya (i put hiya on bisu's list bc his tvz is like 45% and his tvp his 64%), Jangbi, Effort (ironic), Leta, Zero, Calm Jd has beaten Skyhigh, Leta, and every zerg besides effort thats my point (and i wasnt saying flash doesnt have the same caliber ability, i was saying that flash is in his best form right now, if flash were at his full shape, he would be rocking everbody)
Dunno bout you, but him taking down Flash and Jaedong is pretty good. I'll be more convinced if he manages to do it more often and on a frequent basis to prove that he really can hang with the S class gamers.
Needs to prove to me that he can beat the best PvZer in Bisu and show some consistency in Starleagues before I give him the sticker of S class. Great player now, just needs to show it in the leagues. If he's another Sea who keeps failing to make it past the round of 16, then stats mean nothing.
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On June 12 2009 15:44 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 09:17 Gustav_Wind wrote:On June 12 2009 07:59 HooHa! wrote:
I think people who choose random variance or evenly split variance and practice is not looking at all and doesn't know what they are talking about. Sure you look at results but do you watch the game!? Come back till you do. I could watch his games and see absolutely stunning play and still claim fully within reason that variance is a factor. I think it's ridiculous to say that it's not. If you say that variance is not a factor then you are saying that you expect Effort to continue this 90+% win rate. You are saying that 90% win against the general field is an accurate representation of his true skill level relative to the rest of the proleague players. Bisu currently says in interviews that he doesn't think he can maintain 80% win rate. The most dominant pro sc players in history didn't have anything approaching 90% win rate. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about sports but as far as I know in professional sports such as NBA or MLB which have large sample sizes nobody maintains a 90% win rate. So yes, Effort is amazing. But "variance is involved" is a very reasonable answer to the poll. Variance? Do you even know what it is? This is Starcraft, not Poker. In Poker, ANYONE can beat even the top professionals in a hand because of the variance. But try to use the variance to get a D level player beat an A-level progamer. It will never happen. Get a clue please, Starcraft is a skill-based game, and most of the "luck" in it is actually masked mindgames. It's not like you get dealt a random build and have to go with what you're dealt. You can choose what build to do yourself. The only luck factor is the uphill miss-chance. Can you honestly tell me that that's been the reason for most of Effort's victories?
Variance doesn't just have to do with that sort of luck (although it seems hard to argue that build orders before scouting aren't partially luck...are you trying to tell me that rock-paper-scissors is a totally skill-based game?). It also has to do with the fact that everyone has a range of skill levels at which they might perform in any given game. Everyone has games they play great and games in which they play like crap. In my own experience at least, it is basically random chance whether I'll play well in a given game or not; sometimes I'm on, other times I'm just not. Effort's streak may just be due to a prolonged streak of him having particularly good games. This doesn't mean that he has lost the ability to play crap games or that his underlying skill level has changed. In the same vein, effort may have just had a streak of playing against players who were having off-days. And since he and everyone he has faced off against are progamers, this sort of variance is definitely a factor; pretty much any progamer can beat any other progamer given that one is having an off-day and the other is having an on-day (jjonga/movie > jaedong are some recent examples). In fact, given a large enough statistical sample, it is likely that someone will have a streak as good as this, just by virtue of having a string of on-days while his/her opponents have off-days.
This is not to take away from effort's accomplishments. I think the guy has really improved and is definitely playing excellently. But most streaks as impressive as this will be in part due to random variance and I don't think this one is any different.
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He will become something big, he has the confidence to be a top player imo
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Leta and Effort are both gonna be big.
I don't see why people write off Leta so easily.
Everyone's first starleague is hard.
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If this streak is coupled with osl/msl BO3-5 wins and possibly star titles, then yes, effort has improved dramatically and this streak is well deserved skill-based streak. He might have improves somewhat and although i was throughly impressed by him taking down jaedong, i cant say his list of victims is impressive enough to compare a 90% effort win streak to say, a bisu 85% win streak coupled with a star title.
It's not the same as oov's 27-0 tvz run with star titles coupled in. Is that random variance? no. that's pure domination. but is this impressive 25-3 run by effort somewhat affected by variance in both his and his opponent's gameplay? yes.
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On June 12 2009 19:27 SuperJongMan wrote:
Leta and Effort are both gonna be big.
I don't see why people write off Leta so easily.
Everyone's first starleague is hard.
I agree. Lwta reminds me of Flash when he first came to the scene. Leta will explode soon just like effort and they both will dominate
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On June 12 2009 14:56 Jayme wrote:
Keep in mind that Effort is 25-3 please... playing against progamers. That sort of consistency is hard to maintain, especially with the level of play nowadays. Not only that but nearly all of his 25 wins are complete rapes of proportions not seen since Flash went two port wraiths against Protoss because he was bored with progames.
VOD, please? I haven't seen that game.
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On June 12 2009 19:47 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 14:56 Jayme wrote:
Keep in mind that Effort is 25-3 please... playing against progamers. That sort of consistency is hard to maintain, especially with the level of play nowadays. Not only that but nearly all of his 25 wins are complete rapes of proportions not seen since Flash went two port wraiths against Protoss because he was bored with progames. VOD, please? I haven't seen that game.
Against Bisu on Troy... although he got raped, I agree that he probably just did it because he knew how badly he was going to roll Bisu the next 3 games.
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On June 12 2009 19:27 SuperJongMan wrote:
Leta and Effort are both gonna be big.
I don't see why people write off Leta so easily.
Everyone's first starleague is hard.
no offense soyu but usually legendary players won their first sl. (Bisu, Savior (he won his first msl in his 2nd sl but still ok), Nada, Boxer, oov, July, Jaedong and so on..
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People saying it's just weak opponents:
Every single impressive winning streak includes a lot of weak opponents
Effort still trumps everyone else's
Effort is already at the top, most feared player in the world right now
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I love effort.
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On June 12 2009 20:36 Kinavca wrote:
Effort is already at the top, most feared player in the world right now
No. No. No. Not even close. Effort has alot to prove even if he is very good.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Honestly, I'm amazed by the #1 argument that proves that EffOrt's streak isn't impressive.
"The first set of people he beat were bad" "If you look at that list, only a couple are top players"
This kind of point is downright hilarious. There are a ton of progammers out there, and for every Bisu, Jaedong, or Flash, there's ten of Rock. So normally, yeah, EffOrt plays against people he's way better than. So does Bisu, so does JD. But that's the point! EffOrt is BETTER THAN these guys. And just like [your favorite top player] he beats them.
25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?
Here's what's really remarkable about this stretch. EffOrt hasn't lost anything he should've won. He lost to Mind, but beat him in the Bo3. He lost to Bisu, which is totally acceptable. Waay at the beginning he lost to YellOw[ArnC]. There isn't another player right now, who can claim that kind of record recently.
People are running around saying that JD, Bisu, and Flash would be the favorite against EffOrt, it's becoming conventional wisdom. I'm not saying it's not true, but honestly, at this point, I've seen nothing that says that EffOrt couldn't take any of them in a BoX.
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We might see a Jaedong vs Effort quarterfinals in GomTV.
Jaedong has to get through Much and Effort has to defeat Violet. I'd say both of them have pretty good chances to defeat their opponents and fight it out.
It's a pity for Effort though. If he were facing Bisu or Flash he would have a much better chance of victory than against Jaedong.
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On June 13 2009 00:01 tree.hugger wrote:
25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?
Players capable of it, more often than not, have to play a higher frequency of top tier competition, or don't play as many games (ala Bisu and Gom) and therefore a higher percentage of their games are stuff like Starleagues, where basically no one can muster similar records.
Effort is amazing, no doubt, but he has the benefit of a lot of easy opponents, a mostly zerg favored map pool, few people preparing specifically for him, and the offseason's lack of tough BoX series. I am still absolutely impressed by the record, in and of itself, but there are definite reasons other than calling him Savior 2.0. I believe he is right on Jaedong's heels as top zerg, but you can't look at their last 30 games and say Effort had just as hard a time. Doubly so for Bisu, who's probably had the toughest schedule of all, lately, and came through amazingly.
Effort is an absolutely astounding player who found himself in an amazingly favorable series of matches, topped off by some really top tier wins at the later part of his streak. Depending on how many more PL games he has that should result in easy wins (heh, 815), I expect his streak to be even larger and more impressive, numberwise. Chances are it'll drop drastically in the upper echelons of a starleague, but it definitely is a testament to his talent that he's done so well, even in advantageous positions.
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Yeah, I would put Bisu/JD/Flash the big 3 as Tier 1 and Leta/Effort as Tier 2 right now. Before recently, I felt like it was Jangbi alone at Tier 2.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 13 2009 02:20 ccou wrote:
Yeah, I would put Bisu/JD/Flash the big 3 as Tier 1 and Leta/Effort as Tier 2 right now. Before recently, I felt like it was Jangbi alone at Tier 2.
That's accurate. At one point Skyhigh and Fantasy were Tier 2 also, but i just feel Effort is superior to them, he plays better now.
I just hope map pool stays balanced, this allows phenomenal zvt players to shine instead of having it as their "worst" matchup.
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On June 12 2009 20:32 Hyperionnn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 19:27 SuperJongMan wrote:
Leta and Effort are both gonna be big.
I don't see why people write off Leta so easily.
Everyone's first starleague is hard. no offense soyu but usually legendary players won their first sl. (Bisu, Savior (he won his first msl in his 2nd sl but still ok), Nada, Boxer, oov, July, Jaedong and so on..
Disagree.
There are a lot of non 1st time champs that are legends. More than enough to say 1st SL wins aren't a must.
Savior, Chojja, Flash, Stork, Jangbi, GGplay, Luxury, Xellos, Kingdom, Ra, ... etc
Ok... maybe GGplay is a little weak... but you get the point.
It helps to become a legend if you win your first SL obviously. It's like an instant pass.
But it's not the only or most common way or wotnot.
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Jangbi doesn't have a title, so he seems a little out of place in that list of Non-1st time champs.
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O right, lol he got raped.
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I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months.
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On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months.
Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months.
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On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months.
Just lucky
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On June 13 2009 02:35 SuperJongMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 20:32 Hyperionnn wrote:On June 12 2009 19:27 SuperJongMan wrote:
Leta and Effort are both gonna be big.
I don't see why people write off Leta so easily.
Everyone's first starleague is hard. no offense soyu but usually legendary players won their first sl. (Bisu, Savior (he won his first msl in his 2nd sl but still ok), Nada, Boxer, oov, July, Jaedong and so on.. Disagree. There are a lot of non 1st time champs that are legends. More than enough to say 1st SL wins aren't a must. Savior, Chojja, Flash, Stork, Jangbi, GGplay, Luxury, Xellos, Kingdom, Ra, ... etc Ok... maybe GGplay is a little weak... but you get the point. It helps to become a legend if you win your first SL obviously. It's like an instant pass. But it's not the only or most common way or wotnot.
Yes, the absolute LEGENDS of the game won SLs on their first try, but the thing is, these players were playing in a different time. The players were in general weaker then, and these S Class players were MILES above the 2nd tier. That just isn't possible in this day and metagame of starcraft (see Bisu vs Violet), for someone to be that far and away better than everyone else. You have players like Bisu Jaedong and Flash sitting up at the pinnacle of the gaming world, but they lose well more games than, say, oov at his prime, or savior at his. It is a different progaming scene now than it was back then, one that is much more standardized and (I hate to say it) less imaginative. This is why I love watching Horang2 play, you never know what he is going to do and it is so exciting some of the stuff he does (kinda reminds me of Upmagic).
It is SO difficult for a progamer to make it to the finals of the tourneys and the thing about these SLs is that the nerves and mindgames play a huge role in everything (see Best vs July rape) that it takes a time or two to get a handle on it. Leta has played bisu and jaedong several times in PL and has about a .500 record against each. Effort has a .500 record against those 2 overall (I think), but the difference now is that Leta has made it to the Ro8 of the MSL and the Ro16 of the OSL before, so he will have a better grasp on his nerves. I will not be surprised to see Effort have the same results as Leta in his first MSL (similar streaks going in, although Leta had a MUCH more difficult group in his first try, having to take out defending champ ForGG and an inform Iris, while Effort has a slumping Luxury, an auto fail TvZ Hiya, and a recently sketchy Hwasin), maybe reaching Ro16 or Ro8 before running into someone more experienced with the mindgames and then getting taken out. He'll be back for the next run and if he's still playing as well as he is now then I wouldn't be surprised to see a semifinal/final appearance from him. It takes a special person to control your nerves on that type of stage, and I haven't seen enough from Effort to believe he is THAT kind of special player (in that regard, he's a unique talent thats for DAMN sure).
tl;dr - It will take a SL appearance to let us know how he really stacks up.
On June 13 2009 02:39 SuperJongMan wrote:
O right, lol he got raped.
Twice. By Bisu.
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On June 13 2009 03:58 KnightOfNi wrote:
That just isn't possible in this day and metagame of starcraft (see Bisu vs Violet), for someone to be that far and away better than everyone else. You have players like Bisu Jaedong and Flash sitting up at the pinnacle of the gaming world, but they lose well more games than, say, oov at his prime, or savior at his.
What does the metagame have to do with any of this O_O
That poor word, never gets used correctly.
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Savior is passing down all his maestro mojo to effort and kwanro, its only natural the end result is "Effort is destroying everyone in 2009"...
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sixghost , I agree terrible use of metagame.
I think the fact that a handfull of gamers , you all know who I'm referring to, have seperated themselves from the pack and considerably out preformed the rest for a very long time now.
Bisu, jaedong and flash ... I mean come on guys to be so strong at the highest level of play in the hardest time to be the best is insane. Bisu winning against any of the top 5 zergs is a testament on some of the maps that have come out. Flash beating protoss, LOL, there are 20 protoss with PvT so strong it would make artosis blow a fuse and idra be mannered. Not to mention we have a zerg that has taken zvz to another level, micros in all matchups with the balls of boxer and julyzerg and macros like a neo-oov (cheater-zerg).
Any player who is competing with them right now is definately someone special. Stork,Effort,leta, hwasin, fantasy, jangbi,kal all of them are soooo goooooood. I mean the fact that I can already put efforts name next to those players is a definate testament to his dominate play.
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Lets see how far he gets in an individual league.
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On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months.
Bisu, Jaedong, Leta.
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I think he is likely to taper off soon. He's playing really well, but I do think a significant portion of it is statistical anomaly.
He's still not among the top 4 players in my mind.
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When you aren't even playing series yet it's hard to consider you top dog.
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On June 12 2009 07:47 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2009 07:41 rushz0rz wrote:
When you look at the opponent list, it isn't that special. What the fuck? I am by no means a fan of EffOrt or CJ but I don't understand how you can say this. He beat Flash, Stork, Jaedong, Mind, and several other good players. The three losses come from Bisu at his best PvZ ,Yellow's ZvZ, and Mind in which EffOrt won the series anyway. What he's doing right now is very special and impressive. I honestly don't know what you guys expect to see. Consecutive BO3 victories against Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash? Of course he still has lots to prove, at least until he wins or comes close to winning an individual title. Still, it's pretty amazing.
No one isn't saying it isn't really impressive. It's just jumping the gun saying he's the TOP or something because a lot of the players aren't too notable. Is he on fire right now? Yes. Is he outplaying most other players at the moment? Yes. Is he still under Flash/Jaedong/Bisu as overall skill level in a BoX series? Most likely.
It's merely noting the record itself is due largely to the people he played. Compared to a normal S-class player's lineup, OVERALL (you mention 4 actual names out of... 25 wins?) a lot along the way were bottom of progamer level.
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that's just insane good, but i actually ask myself, how the hell oov just mentioned to be better back at his days.. just increddible ..
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It's a really good record, but it's just that so far. Win/loss records mean nothing without SL wins, or at least consistently good runs in at least one of them (EDIT: by which I mean, noone will remember the guy who goes on a 30 game winning rampage if he never reaches a SL final in his career, for example).
If he can keep this up in consecutive BO matches against opponents prepared for him (and which he likewise is preparing against), then he will win a SL and then maybe we can cart out these stats to say "look how good he was". But if he can't then he'll just be another Leta, and that'll just be a huge letdown.
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On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta.
Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that.
Jaedong's best was 17-3
Bisu's best was 13-3
Leta's best was 23-3
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On June 13 2009 05:11 SimonB wrote:
I think he is likely to taper off soon. He's playing really well, but I do think a significant portion of it is statistical anomaly.
He's still not among the top 4 players in my mind.
Who is the top4 for you?
Bisu, Jaedong, Flash and...?
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On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3
again, the point is everyone is now realizing effort has improved. Not just us, but koreans too. What does this mean? His 25 and 3 record is against progamer chumps comparitivley. Y does this not normally happen,with bisu and jd, easy anwser. Because coaches spend days trying to figure out how to nuetralize those players, they have teams snipe them, they make them play 2 games a night, anything to get them down, and they always put up damn good players against them. Effort, not so much, hes gotten a few big names under his belt, but when u consider that he beat flash and jd in best of ones, versus bisu beating jangbi, jd, hiya (effort beat him too but hiays tvz sucks ass), zero, calm (hell actually every zerg except great, and every toss except stork) u can just see that the caliber of players that he plays almost daily are on another level.
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On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3
I'm saying they had runs that were comparable. If someone went 26-4 or whatever, does that disqualify them because 4 losses is really different from 3? The three losses is cherry-picked specifically for Effort so we have to cherry pick for the others as well.
We're not measuring other progamers against Effort, we're measuring Effort against the other progamers. Right now, anyways.
Okay, if you're saying that I didn't satisfy the original request, I satisfied its spirit, not the word, because 23-3 is comparable to 25-3.
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On June 13 2009 07:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3 I'm saying they had runs that were comparable. If someone went 26-4 or whatever, does that disqualify them because 4 losses is really different from 3? The three losses is cherry-picked specifically for Effort so we have to cherry pick for the others as well. We're not measuring other progamers against Effort, we're measuring Effort against the other progamers. Right now, anyways. Okay, if you're saying that I didn't satisfy the original request, I satisfied its spirit, not the word, because 23-3 is comparable to 25-3. I was just rebutting your point. The only player even close to efforts streak right now is leta. You made it sound like this was a common occurance to have a streak this good.
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On June 13 2009 07:44 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 07:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3 I'm saying they had runs that were comparable. If someone went 26-4 or whatever, does that disqualify them because 4 losses is really different from 3? The three losses is cherry-picked specifically for Effort so we have to cherry pick for the others as well. We're not measuring other progamers against Effort, we're measuring Effort against the other progamers. Right now, anyways. Okay, if you're saying that I didn't satisfy the original request, I satisfied its spirit, not the word, because 23-3 is comparable to 25-3. I was just rebutting your point. The only player even close to efforts streak right now is leta. You made it sound like this was a common occurance to have a streak this good.
I'm saying it happens for than people think. They're hyping the streak as the end all of the game. Unfortunately, a lot of the other player's streak were less impressive because they played Bo5s.
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On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3
What kind of arbitrary streak is it that has 3 losses, anyhow? The only real "streaks" would be consecutive wins. It's an impressive recent record, but winning streaks don't have losses in them. The best winning streaks go to Jaedong and Oov, if I'm not mistaken.
He's second place for the "Best streak with up to 3 losses," next to Oov's 26-3, but that's still arbitrary beyond reckoning. I'm happy to admit he's an incredible player who's been out of this world consistent lately, but his best streak is still 9 wins. Poinitively, if he had continued his amazing dominance in series play, he'd have the best streak ever, because he wouldn't have dropped a game to a slumping Mind. I honestly think series play is Effort's biggest possible shortcoming, but it's a wait and see type deal.
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Effort has yet to show anything in a league format so we really can't say too much. Also short term streaks, even over 25 games etc, can be partially attributed to variance.
I seriously doubt he will make it to the Ro4 in any starleague this season.
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10387 Posts
The best winning streak goes to Gorush with an incredible 16 wins
and he has only 1 MSL. Shows how much streaks matter
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On June 13 2009 06:29 dmfg wrote:
It's a really good record, but it's just that so far. Win/loss records mean nothing without SL wins, or at least consistently good runs in at least one of them (EDIT: by which I mean, noone will remember the guy who goes on a 30 game winning rampage if he never reaches a SL final in his career, for example).
If he can keep this up in consecutive BO matches against opponents prepared for him (and which he likewise is preparing against), then he will win a SL and then maybe we can cart out these stats to say "look how good he was". But if he can't then he'll just be another Leta, and that'll just be a huge letdown.
You are implying that Leta is finished. Have you seen him play? He's had ONE OSL chance and TWO MSL chances, and he made the Ro8 in the MSL last season. Leta is FAR from being done, so don't consider him to be "another Leta". "Another Sea[Shield]" is much more accurate at this moment.
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Ah, thanks for the correction Arvick.
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On June 13 2009 08:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3 What kind of arbitrary streak is it that has 3 losses, anyhow? The only real "streaks" would be consecutive wins. It's an impressive recent record, but winning streaks don't have losses in them. The best winning streaks go to Jaedong and Oov, if I'm not mistaken. He's second place for the "Best streak with up to 3 losses," next to Oov's 26-3, but that's still arbitrary beyond reckoning. I'm happy to admit he's an incredible player who's been out of this world consistent lately, but his best streak is still 9 wins. Poinitively, if he had continued his amazing dominance in series play, he'd have the best streak ever, because he wouldn't have dropped a game to a slumping Mind. I honestly think series play is Effort's biggest possible shortcoming, but it's a wait and see type deal.
Go back and maybe read the post I was responding to? He said that there were 3 other players who had went 25-3 in the last 4 months.
No one is hyping this up to be the best streak in BW history. But going 25-3 is ridiculous.
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Geez, don't take everything so literally, it gets hard to discuss things. Streaks don't have to be down to the game for the point to get across -.-
"No one is hyping this up to be the best streak in BW history. But going 25-3 is ridiculous."
"Looking on TLPD I reckon that might well be the best 28 game record EVER."
Again, don't take this so literally and start pointing out semantics and whatnot.
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Savior: "I have created a weapon to destroy everyone in 2009."
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On June 13 2009 08:33 ArvickHero wrote:
The best winning streak goes to Gorush with an incredible 16 wins
and he has only 1 MSL. Shows how much streaks matter
Dude, this is the internet; if your being sarcastic you gotta really mean it... and if not, fuck you I love GoRush (  )
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anyone who doesnt think this streak is ridiculously awesome should kill himself
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Quick, every skeptic commit honorable seppuku this instant, you might disagree with other people on starcraft!
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Sure, he improved... but that doesn't mean anything until he wins a title.
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Let's stop talking about records for a second and reflect on his play. This guy has looked insanely good.
- He's played games where he dominates from start to finish, and he's played games where he pulled out wins from a very disadvantageous position.
- He's displayed REMARKABLE game sense (worthy of being the Neo-Savior, which is the highest praise someone can give regarding game sense).
- He's made some amazing micro plays when it counted (watch his Tank surround against Mind in GOM game 3, an incredible response to a great build executed by a master that singlehandedly won him the game).
- He's demonstrated S-class macro when necessary on multiple occasions.
- He pulled back a game from a losing position by outplaying Flash of all players in the late game (something only Jaedong is also capable of doing for Zergs).
- He beat Jaedong and Luxury in ZvZs, and neither game was a fluke
You can't say a guy is the "best" player definitively based off of a hot streak outside of the starleagues, but you can still apply common sense. Effort has clearly demonstrated the ability to do everything necessary for a superstar league winner, now he has to do the hard part (which is to actually go through and do it). Common sense tells us that Effort is one of the top 4 players in the world right now, and is playing phenomenally.
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On June 13 2009 10:58 darktreb wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Let's stop talking about records for a second and reflect on his play. This guy has looked insanely good.
- He's played games where he dominates from start to finish, and he's played games where he pulled out wins from a very disadvantageous position.
- He's displayed REMARKABLE game sense (worthy of being the Neo-Savior, which is the highest praise someone can give regarding game sense).
- He's made some amazing micro plays when it counted (watch his Tank surround against Mind in GOM game 3, an incredible response to a great build executed by a master that singlehandedly won him the game).
- He's demonstrated S-class macro when necessary on multiple occasions.
- He pulled back a game from a losing position by outplaying Flash of all players in the late game (something only Jaedong is also capable of doing for Zergs).
- He beat Jaedong and Luxury in ZvZs, and neither game was a fluke
You can't say a guy is the "best" player definitively based off of a hot streak outside of the starleagues, but you can still apply common sense. Effort has clearly demonstrated the ability to do everything necessary for a superstar league winner, now he has to do the hard part (which is to actually go through and do it). Common sense tells us that Effort is one of the top 4 players in the world right now, and is playing phenomenally.
+ Show Spoiler +I hate to make a post like this, but...
This.
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some people say lux aint shit he just won a title cause of luck...
some people will say effort aint shit untill he does win a title.
you cant please everyone. this guy is playing legendary right now. but thats just right now. we will see.
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On June 13 2009 09:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Geez, don't take everything so literally, it gets hard to discuss things. Streaks don't have to be down to the game for the point to get across -.-
"No one is hyping this up to be the best streak in BW history. But going 25-3 is ridiculous."
"Looking on TLPD I reckon that might well be the best 28 game record EVER."
Again, don't take this so literally and start pointing out semantics and whatnot.
What are you even talking about now... I don't get how I'm pointing out semantics, I don't see how what you said could be taken in any other way.
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Er...ignore everything but the first sentence.
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On June 13 2009 11:45 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Er...ignore everything but the first part of my sentence.
lol, I'm not even sure what the argument is about anymore. But just the fact that he's playing on a level that gets him compared to bisu/jd/leta is proof enough of how well he is playing. I agree you can't compare the stats directly, since effort is pretty protected in proleague. CJ has at least 4 players that they can send out for ace matches, which reduces the chances that he would get sent out on a bad zerg map for an ace match.
But all statistics aside, you just have to watch the games he's being showing lately, considering that almost no one on TL had ever heard of effort a year ago, and you start to understand why people are hyping up the guy when he goes on a streak like this.
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CJ Entus practices at least 9.5 hours a day is what I hear... That's a lot
I don't know about the other teams
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To sixghost:
Yeah, I don't think it even matters. I'll let the CJ fans hype in peace.
To guy above me:
9.5 hours is a lot, it's more than ACE (8 hours), but I don't think it's mindboggling. Though too much practice is a bad thing as well.
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On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3
You're wrong about Jaedong. His best was 24-3.
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Okay so who cares about then still? one win difference? That was a year ago, sure thats awesome, but this is NOW. Effort is the peak of the modern zerg right now. Like I would say Leta is the peak of the modern terran right now. At least in play style. There are very few people ranked higher then them in what they do best. But they play in the newest most successful fashion possible. So there you have it.
I suppose in retrospect were people still hesitant to say jaedong is on fire?
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On June 13 2009 11:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
To sixghost:
Yeah, I don't think it even matters. I'll let the CJ fans hype in peace.
To guy above me:
9.5 hours is a lot, it's more than ACE (8 hours), but I don't think it's mindboggling. Though too much practice is a bad thing as well.
lol you're disgusting. You try several stupid arguments as to why effort is not that good, fail all of them and then try to spin it off as you letting cj fans hype in peace.
ridiculous
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He'd really proved himself as a topplayer lately, I hope he can keep on playing amazingly
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Looking back Jaedong's streak is actually way more impressive. Look it contains Bisu, Flash, sAviOr and an OSL final and semifinal.
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On June 13 2009 23:44 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 11:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
To sixghost:
Yeah, I don't think it even matters. I'll let the CJ fans hype in peace.
To guy above me:
9.5 hours is a lot, it's more than ACE (8 hours), but I don't think it's mindboggling. Though too much practice is a bad thing as well. lol you're disgusting. You try several stupid arguments as to why effort is not that good, fail all of them and then try to spin it off as you letting cj fans hype in peace. ridiculous
Your CJ bias has blinded you. Do you even know what point I'm trying to get across? I've admitted several times that Effort's gameplay has bordered on S+ class and have agreed with such posters here and in the PR. What do you want from me? I'm just advising a grain of salt. Calm down fusionsdf.
See, then I realized people don't like taking a grain of salt, so I'd stop. But then you lash out like me.
I've never said Effort's not great, maybe that he's not the best ever or unprecedented, but really.
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The most indicative thing about Jaedong's 24-3 compared to Effort's 25-3 is that Jaedong has 3 Best of Five matches in it, in two tournaments that he ended up winning. I'd personally say that that's a little more impressive even if it isn't numerically better.
Edit: Also his schedule was way freaking harder. Bisu, Bo5 versus Flash, Upmagic, and Stork, Lux when he was good, etc etc.
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United States11390 Posts
Effort is awesome. Zorg is awesome.
More awesome Zorg players is awesome.
y so hateful? :<
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Wow... EffOrt has definitely gotten much better, into S/God class Z.
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On June 13 2009 21:51 Dice84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3 You're wrong about Jaedong. His best was 24-3.
That is fucking impressive. 3 Bo5s, vs the 2nd best toss in finals, a Terran that was doing well at the time, and the best T of the time. The game vs Best on Demon's forest was an all in by JD vs Best, 1hat hydra due to map imbalance. His loss vs stork on persona was also a lurk/ling all in. So the only straight up loss on that list was a loss to Flash's mech on Katrina. That shows you to the extent of his dominance.
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On June 14 2009 02:51 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 23:44 fusionsdf wrote:On June 13 2009 11:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
To sixghost:
Yeah, I don't think it even matters. I'll let the CJ fans hype in peace.
To guy above me:
9.5 hours is a lot, it's more than ACE (8 hours), but I don't think it's mindboggling. Though too much practice is a bad thing as well. lol you're disgusting. You try several stupid arguments as to why effort is not that good, fail all of them and then try to spin it off as you letting cj fans hype in peace. ridiculous Your CJ bias has blinded you. Do you even know what point I'm trying to get across? I've admitted several times that Effort's gameplay has bordered on S+ class and have agreed with such posters here and in the PR. What do you want from me? I'm just advising a grain of salt. Calm down fusionsdf. See, then I realized people don't like taking a grain of salt, so I'd stop. But then you lash out like me. I've never said Effort's not great, maybe that he's not the best ever or unprecedented, but really.
thats cool
then you've been arguing with no one for the past couple pages. Nobody I think is seriously calling effort greatest player ever.
But just keep making stupid arguments and say everyone who calls you out on it a blind fanboy if it makes you happy.
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Effort has been playing pretty godlike lately, but I wanna see him play some bo3/bo5's. Looking forward to his future performances.
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On June 13 2009 10:21 meegrean wrote:
Sure, he improved... but that doesn't mean anything until he wins a title.
it does
have you heard about proleague? you know, where progamers are sitting on bench
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On June 13 2009 22:44 HooHa! wrote:
I suppose in retrospect were people still hesitant to say jaedong is on fire?
Not really? He kinda royal roaded the OSL
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effort needs a title to prove anything.
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On June 14 2009 05:25 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 02:51 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 23:44 fusionsdf wrote:On June 13 2009 11:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
To sixghost:
Yeah, I don't think it even matters. I'll let the CJ fans hype in peace.
To guy above me:
9.5 hours is a lot, it's more than ACE (8 hours), but I don't think it's mindboggling. Though too much practice is a bad thing as well. lol you're disgusting. You try several stupid arguments as to why effort is not that good, fail all of them and then try to spin it off as you letting cj fans hype in peace. ridiculous Your CJ bias has blinded you. Do you even know what point I'm trying to get across? I've admitted several times that Effort's gameplay has bordered on S+ class and have agreed with such posters here and in the PR. What do you want from me? I'm just advising a grain of salt. Calm down fusionsdf. See, then I realized people don't like taking a grain of salt, so I'd stop. But then you lash out like me. I've never said Effort's not great, maybe that he's not the best ever or unprecedented, but really. thats cool then you've been arguing with no one for the past couple pages. Nobody I think is seriously calling effort greatest player ever. But just keep making stupid arguments and say everyone who calls you out on it a blind fanboy if it makes you happy.
It does just like it makes you happy.
Since everyone who called me out is just you.
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On June 13 2009 21:51 Dice84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3 You're wrong about Jaedong. His best was 24-3.
O.O omfg Jaedong is a beast... omg this streak of Effort is good, very good he is a good player probably the n2 Zerg right now.. but Jaedong >>>>>>>>>>> Effort
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United States11390 Posts
On June 14 2009 08:57 FranzF1 wrote:
but Jaedong >>>>>>>>>>> Effort
Not at all.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 14 2009 10:18 Harem wrote:Not at all.
Jaedong > Effort, but yeah probably not >>>>>>>>>>>
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I remember when I just started following pro gaming a bit over a year and a half ago
And watching Effort's games
I didn't think of him as anything too special then
This really caught me off guard lol
Effort came out of nowhere and just started dropping top players like flies
Glad to see the Zerg have another powerhouse on their side.
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This will spoil who won Effort's latest game:
+ Show Spoiler +Sweet Jesus Effort has passed Bisu in ELO.
He is now a whole 9 ELO points away from clear first.
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On June 14 2009 05:15 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 21:51 Dice84 wrote:On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3 You're wrong about Jaedong. His best was 24-3. That is fucking impressive. 3 Bo5s, vs the 2nd best toss in finals, a Terran that was doing well at the time, and the best T of the time. The game vs Best on Demon's forest was an all in by JD vs Best, 1hat hydra due to map imbalance. His loss vs stork on persona was also a lurk/ling all in. So the only straight up loss on that list was a loss to Flash's mech on Katrina. That shows you to the extent of his dominance.
You can't discount his all-in losses while counting his all-in wins.
In fact you can't discount anything at all, except for that Demon Forest thing which was a ridic rigged map. Why? Because of balance: going for all-in in a game effects not only that game but others: it's balances your range of builds and effects how players play against you.
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+ Show Spoiler +I don't think winning winning more PL matches against mediocre players can say anymore about Effort. Sure, adding to the already impressive streak is good, but it really no longer acts as a testament to his skills. As people have been saying in this thread the PR comments, he needs to start winning BoX matches and standing with the top players in the individual leagues.
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On June 13 2009 21:51 Dice84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2009 06:34 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 04:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 13 2009 03:41 sixghost wrote:On June 13 2009 02:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I wouldn't call Luxury a legendary player. Legendarily bad at being consistent, maybe.
"25-3 is 25 and 3. If it was so easy for EffOrt to accomplish, then why doesn't it happen really often?"
It happened 3 other times within the last ~4 months. Please point out the other 3 people who have gone 25-3 in the past 4 months. Bisu, Jaedong, Leta. Where are you getting this from? I just checked TLPD, none of those players have had a streak like that. Jaedong's best was 17-3 Bisu's best was 13-3 Leta's best was 23-3 You're wrong about Jaedong. His best was 24-3.
He said "in the last 4 months". I didn't look back that far. That streak was from over a year ago.
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On June 16 2009 09:44 B1nary wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't think winning winning more PL matches against mediocre players can say anymore about Effort. Sure, adding to the already impressive streak is good, but it really no longer acts as a testament to his skills. As people have been saying in this thread the PR comments, he needs to start winning BoX matches and standing with the top players in the individual leagues.
+ Show Spoiler +Actually, the way ELO ratings work make it just as hard to gain X points over a long run from a player rated 200 points below you as it is from someone rated 200 points above you, UNLESS one of you has recently changed skill level drastically.
In ELO, if a 2280 player plays a 2000 rated player for 10,000 games, they will theoretically both end with the same rating they started at.
The real, important conclusion: you can't newb-bash in ELO. So saying that Effort's ELO doesn't count because he's only playing weak players doesn't make sense (edit: nobody is actually specifically saying this). That said, there is still variance in any game and as such I'd say Effort is overrated and running hot.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s.
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/thread derail.
I guess it was bad of me to say other players have accomplished a 25-3.
What I meant was that other players have recently accomplished a streak that is comparable or better (or slightly worse) than Effort's based on who they've played and such.
I didn't expect to be taken so literally.
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On June 16 2009 09:58 Tien wrote:
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s.
this, once players hit the individual leagues their winning % usually goes down quite a bit
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Elo rankings and winning streaks come and go.
Starleague wins are cemented in history.
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Effort in any individual leagues?
edit: nvm he can win GOM or MSL to prove himself
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26-3, you mean. ^_^ And the game vs JD was a mirror BO where he just owned JD straight-up in a micro battle. His most impressive victory in my opinion.
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On June 16 2009 10:08 Shikyo wrote:
26-3, you mean. ^_^ And the game vs JD was a mirror BO where he just owned JD straight-up in a micro battle. His most impressive victory in my opinion.
That post was before his recent win and unfortunately I can't predict the future. I said more or less. I don't think saying that he beat JD in a straight up micro battle is very accurate. He beat him in a straight-up ZvZ, but it was more tactics rather than micro that won him the game, which is actually more impressive.
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reminds me of how leta started making a name for himself posting an over 80 percent win rate the second half of last year
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Isn't effort supposed be the best player in practice, but he always fails because he has problems with performing in front of crowds or something?
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United States2186 Posts
On June 16 2009 10:02 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 09:58 Tien wrote:
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s. this, once players hit the individual leagues their winning % usually goes down quite a bit
Effort cannot be compared to Leta. Leta's eventual failure in league play was visible months beforehand because he did not have the tools to take down good players nor did he have the variance. Effort so far has not shown that limitation so far at all, having instead shown a much better fundamental understanding and having beaten every single top notch opponent except for Fantasy and Bisu, maybe Violet too if you want to stretch things a bit. Although his ZvP is questionable his ZvT is near Savior level (i,e better than Jaedong) and his ZvZ is looking pretty immaculate as well.
Yes Effort's streak will obviously subside once he advances in leagues because he will be playing good players more than a quarter of the time. But so long as he doesn't run into Bisu early on he has a very good chance of deep starleague runs.
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On June 16 2009 10:32 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 10:02 Sunyveil wrote:On June 16 2009 09:58 Tien wrote:
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s. this, once players hit the individual leagues their winning % usually goes down quite a bit Effort cannot be compared to Leta. Leta's eventual failure in league play was visible months beforehand because he did not have the tools to take down good players nor did he have the variance. Effort so far has not shown that limitation so far at all, having instead shown a much better fundamental understanding and having beaten every single top notch opponent except for Fantasy and Bisu, maybe Violet too if you want to stretch things a bit. Although his ZvP is questionable his ZvT is near Savior level (i,e better than Jaedong) and his ZvZ is looking pretty immaculate as well. Yes Effort's streak will obviously subside once he advances in leagues because he will be playing good players more than a quarter of the time. But so long as he doesn't run into Bisu early on he has a very good chance of deep starleague runs.
Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by Leta not having the tools necessary to take down good players? Do you mean strategy, mechanics, mindset? Or something different?
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On June 16 2009 10:02 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 09:58 Tien wrote:
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s. this, once players hit the individual leagues their winning % usually goes down quite a bit
except unlike leta effOrt has the skill to beat the top players.
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On June 16 2009 10:02 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 09:58 Tien wrote:
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s. this, once players hit the individual leagues their winning % usually goes down quite a bit
That couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Semi Finals in Starleagues are usually against an S-class progamer could it?
... Logical sense his freaking winrate would go down you know.
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On June 16 2009 10:45 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 10:02 Sunyveil wrote:On June 16 2009 09:58 Tien wrote:
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s. this, once players hit the individual leagues their winning % usually goes down quite a bit That couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Semi Finals in Starleagues are usually against an S-class progamer could it? ... Logical sense his freaking winrate would go down you know.
Clearly, yes they do.
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I like your username, it's appropriate.
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Well he has 2285 ELO, which theoretically shouldn't go down whether he plays vs S-class players only or 2000 rated players.
OTOH that only works once his ELO has been established over a large sample, which it has not.
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Fun fact, his ELO is higher than Stork's peak back when he was actually owning everyone.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
Damn his ELO just surpassed that of Bisu and he's one Jaedong's misstep away from being first in tlpd ranks.
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United States13896 Posts
When was the last time a player not named Flash, Bisu, or Jaedong was #1 ELO? Did JangBi ever manage to get to #1? It would be so weird for a new player to be #1, and this is coming from a huge EffOrt fan.
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On June 16 2009 11:14 p4NDemik wrote:
When was the last time a player not named Flash, Bisu, or Jaedong was #1 ELO? Did JangBi ever manage to get to #1? It would be so weird for a new player to be #1, and this is coming from a huge EffOrt fan.
JangBi never had #1 because his rise coincided with bisu's and then he lost to Bisu before he could over take flash. He was number 2 for a bit I think.
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On June 16 2009 11:06 Shikyo wrote:
Fun fact, his ELO is higher than Stork's peak back when he was actually owning everyone.
His ELO is higher than basically anyone has been except for Bisu/Flash/Jaedong.'
edit: Savior/Jangbi/Iloveoov have had higher ELOs. His current ELO of 2285 is tied with Nada's max.
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bare in mind ELO inflation. if there was some sorta ELO inflation I tihnk Boxer or Oov would defiantly sitll be #1.
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On June 16 2009 11:56 Ideas wrote:
bare in mind ELO inflation. if there was some sorta ELO inflation I tihnk Boxer or Oov would defiantly sitll be #1.
Also more difficult to dominate now than it was when Boxer or Oov played, so it evens out.
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No it doesn't. Nowadays players play a lot more proleague games against mediocre players that's basically free ELO points that a player missed out on since they couldn't play as many people when they were godly.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 16 2009 12:15 Avidkeystamper wrote:
No it doesn't. Nowadays players play a lot more proleague games against mediocre players that's basically free ELO points that a player missed out on since they couldn't play as many people when they were godly.
As far as i know inflation is tied with skill level. Numbers not just inflate because of time, but because players get better overall. At least it's like that in reality, even if it's not supported by math. Players are better now, and it's tougher to dominate, you need higher skill level and faster hands than before.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On June 16 2009 11:14 p4NDemik wrote:
When was the last time a player not named Flash, Bisu, or Jaedong was #1 ELO? Did JangBi ever manage to get to #1? It would be so weird for a new player to be #1, and this is coming from a huge EffOrt fan.
iirc the last person not jd/flash/bisu to have #1 ELO was stork for a short while
not very sure though
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Jesus, he is continuing to dominate. Look at his most recent stats, that is VERY impressive. 9 wins out of his last 10 games (2 more wins and he's 10/10). Absolutely insane!
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United States2186 Posts
On June 16 2009 11:58 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 11:56 Ideas wrote:
bare in mind ELO inflation. if there was some sorta ELO inflation I tihnk Boxer or Oov would defiantly sitll be #1. Also more difficult to dominate now than it was when Boxer or Oov played, so it evens out.
ELO inflation does exist in some form or another. oov's domination is unparalleled by any of these new guys yet they all have higher elo peaks. Also Flash/Jaedong have their ELO peaks in 2009 despite having their best streaks back in 2008
As for the difficulty to dominate that's just a myth for the most part, at least once progaming was solidified in oov's era. The only new difficulty is the much more frequent proleague which over-schedules and exhausts players. Despite progaming having grown much more since oov's time Flash/Jaedong/Bisu still manage to dominate. Only difference is that none of them can eclipse the others, possibly due to the scheduling issues. It's all about skill relative to the age.
And Boxer's ELO is never going to be anywhere near what it should be because TLPD (understandably) doesn't have the info from a lot of the major tournaments he played in back then (before ogn/mbc solidified themselves).
On June 16 2009 10:36 B1nary wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 10:32 Ver wrote:On June 16 2009 10:02 Sunyveil wrote:On June 16 2009 09:58 Tien wrote:
He's just another Leta until he starts winning starleague BO3s and BO5s. this, once players hit the individual leagues their winning % usually goes down quite a bit Effort cannot be compared to Leta. Leta's eventual failure in league play was visible months beforehand because he did not have the tools to take down good players nor did he have the variance. Effort so far has not shown that limitation so far at all, having instead shown a much better fundamental understanding and having beaten every single top notch opponent except for Fantasy and Bisu, maybe Violet too if you want to stretch things a bit. Although his ZvP is questionable his ZvT is near Savior level (i,e better than Jaedong) and his ZvZ is looking pretty immaculate as well. Yes Effort's streak will obviously subside once he advances in leagues because he will be playing good players more than a quarter of the time. But so long as he doesn't run into Bisu early on he has a very good chance of deep starleague runs. Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by Leta not having the tools necessary to take down good players? Do you mean strategy, mechanics, mindset? Or something different?
A mix. Leta does not take many risks. He tries to overpower his opponent just by outplaying them, which is very good when facing your random proleague guys like Calms but runs into trouble against starleague contenders who get big build order or tactical advantages versus him and run him into the ground. He plays to his strengths and those are his mechanics and harass, not his strategy.
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I have to say, you probably get this a lot, but Ver is one of the best SC-related posters on this site. It's not important whether I agree with you, but your posts concisely address the issue and are very clear and organized.
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On June 16 2009 12:35 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 11:14 p4NDemik wrote:
When was the last time a player not named Flash, Bisu, or Jaedong was #1 ELO? Did JangBi ever manage to get to #1? It would be so weird for a new player to be #1, and this is coming from a huge EffOrt fan. iirc the last person not jd/flash/bisu to have #1 ELO was stork for a short while not very sure though
IIRC that's correct, back when he won his first OSL. That's why I mentioned him. =)
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EffOrt is on fire this time =)
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Who are his upcoming opponents? I know he faces Violet in Gom, which I think is going to favor one or the other of them 2-1 (2 Weeks away though, too long for either of them to slide one or the other to call it right now, and it IS gom, which was Tempest > Jaedong). Examining who is going to play within the coming weeks will be a good way of gauging what his peak elo and likelihood of winning.
Edit : I see that we won't know his OSL opponents til Friday, and his next msl matches won't be til after the rest of ro32 finishes, a week or two from now. It's unlikely for him to face any difficult opponents anytime soon, the strongest opponent we know he'll face for sure is Violet, and while I like Violet, it won't say much about Effort if effort wins that. Who would the worst possible OSL ro16 opponent be? Jaedong? Bisu? Flash? Fantasy? All are possible.
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On June 16 2009 12:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I have to say, you probably get this a lot, but Ver is one of the best SC-related posters on this site. It's not important whether I agree with you, but your posts concisely address the issue and are very clear and organized.
it's because he's Mafia
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On June 17 2009 05:39 Nevuk wrote:
Who would the worst possible OSL ro16 opponent be? Jaedong? Bisu? Flash? Fantasy? All are possible.
Without a doubt Jaedong. A quick look at his record shows that he has only lost one BoX ZvZ (against July at WCG Korea 2007) and his ZvZ has only improved since then. Sure, EffOrt took a game off him recently but knowing Jaedong that will just make him even more likely to win the next time they meet. Of course Bisu would be very tough as well, and neither FlaSh nor Fantasy are pushovers, but Jaedong has to be the one person he would absolutely not want to face.
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On June 16 2009 12:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I have to say, you probably get this a lot, but Ver is one of the best SC-related posters on this site. It's not important whether I agree with you, but your posts concisely address the issue and are very clear and organized.
agreed; whenever I see Ver's name attached to a post, I make a point of reading it.
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On June 16 2009 12:15 Avidkeystamper wrote:
No it doesn't. Nowadays players play a lot more proleague games against mediocre players that's basically free ELO points that a player missed out on since they couldn't play as many people when they were godly.
That's not how ELO works. There is an argument to be made that a players ELO was never representative of his skill due to not a large enough sample (due to the scarcity of games in pre-proleague games), but there are no 'free' or 'easy' or even 'easier' points in ELO.
Your expected change in your ELO rating in a game vs a 2300 or 2000 player is the same, zero, as long as:
1) You (and your opponent) have played a large enough sample of games, respectively.
2) Your skill level or your opponent's skill level hasn't changed recently.
Inflation can occur when a lot of new players play a few games and don't play again, and their skill is under the 2000 start point.
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Yes, but the evidence is to the contrary. Sure if you play an infinite amount of games with a constant skill level, your ELO will stay constant, but can we really say that for someone like Boxer, his ELO is only a measely 225x? He mostly played in individual tournaments where the level of skill was higher than the proleague (comparatively). So there is inflation, and it is "free ELO points". I mean Effort's getting a lot more opportunities to play during this hot streak of his that other older players may not be able to benefit from due to a dearth of games.
ELO is not a perfect representation. That's why players go on hot streaks where they maintain a winning % that is nowhere near their overall record, thus allowing them to reach their peak. How many games they can play will be directly proportional to how high their peak is.
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On June 17 2009 08:00 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Yes, but the evidence is to the contrary. Sure if you play an infinite amount of games with a constant skill level, your ELO will stay constant, but can we really say that for someone like Boxer, his ELO is only a measely 225x? He mostly played in individual tournaments where the level of skill was higher than the proleague (comparatively). So there is inflation, and it is "free ELO points". I mean Effort's getting a lot more opportunities to play during this hot streak of his that other older players may not be able to benefit from due to a dearth of games.
As long as the two conditions I mentioned are met, there are no free points or easy points. All points are equally difficult to get.
I also think you don't understand the basis of inflation in an ELO system: it doesn't come from everyone playing more games, it comes from new, overrated players (they are given 2000 ELO to start) playing a few games and then not playing again. If you consider playing vs those players 'easy points', then you are correct, as they don't satisfy the two criteria I posted about previously.
As to your edit, ELO has nothing to do with winning % or winning streaks, etc. There is naturally variance in starcraft, and so you will see at some points that ELO is not precisely representative of a players skill. Once the player plays enough games, though, that evens out.
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I don't think we're talking about the same "inflation". Once everyone plays enough games, ELO doesn't even out because people's skills are constantly changing. If Effort, or Boxer plays at a completely different level during a phase, their theoretical ELO maybe be some high value (say 2350). But which player has a better chance of achieving that ELO during their phase? Effort, because he gets to play more games. I think that's my point, it may not be actually "inflation".
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On June 17 2009 08:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't think we're talking about the same "inflation".
A general trend whereby the top players' (whoever they may be) rating increases over time?
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to say: are you arguing that Boxer never had a large enough sample of games to get his ELO up to his skill level?
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Well, Boxer may be a bad example since he played a lot of games that was never entered into the TLPD. I'm saying that during a player's career, there are always phases where they get really good and appear dominant.
At that point, their theoretical ELO is probably very high, but if one player gets to play more games like the proscene nowadays with 3 leagues +proleague with ace matches than some other player back in the day with less matches, the newer player's ELO will be higher at the end of the dominant phase.
Actually, in my English classes, my English teachers always criticize me for being disorganized and using overly long sentences. (To the guy below me)
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Wow, major thumbs up for Avidkeystamper. His post makes perfect sense all the time.
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Yeah, I didn't think I was using the correct definition; I agree with you about the real inflation/deflation.
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On June 17 2009 08:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Well, Boxer may be a bad example since he played a lot of games that was never entered into the TLPD. I'm saying that during a player's career, there are always phases where they get really good and appear dominant.
At that point, their theoretical ELO is probably very high, but if one player gets to play more games like the proscene nowadays with 3 leagues +proleague with ace matches than some other player back in the day with less matches, the newer player's ELO will be higher at the end of the dominant phase.
Right, you are saying that their skill level fluctuates and that due to the lack of sample size during that short period the ELO didn't properly track it, kind of like a thermometer which takes readings every hour and computes them into a graph, but missed the 20 degree temperature spike during some obscene weather event because it was in between the measurement times.
That is certainly possible.
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I can't really talk more about real inflation/deflation without seeing how teamliquid's ELO system is set up: there are variations between different systems.
wikipedia wrote:
Because of the significant difference in timing of when inflation and deflation occur, and in order to combat deflation, most implementations of Elo ratings have a mechanism for injecting points into the system in order to maintain relative ratings over time. FIDE has two inflationary mechanisms. First, performances below a "ratings floor" are not tracked, so a player with true skill below the floor can only be unrated or overrated, never correctly rated. Second, established and higher-rated players have a lower K-factor.[11] There is no theoretical reason why these should provide a proper balance to an otherwise deflationary scheme; perhaps they over-correct and result in net inflation beyond the playing population's increase in absolute skill. On the other hand, there is no obviously superior alternative.
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I really want to love Effort because he's an amazing zerg and is on CJ, but I still have a hard time liking him as much as I do savior/jaedong/hero. D: It makes me sad.
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Ok, you guys know Tossgirl? The top female Terran and the top player in female proleague?
Effort lose to her once.
i already heard some fanboy bitchin "lololol Effort w0n in th3 end noobz lolololooo".
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On June 19 2009 10:23 genryou wrote:
Ok, you guys know Tossgirl? The top female Terran and the top player in female proleague?
Effort lose to her once.
i already heard some fanboy bitchin "lololol Effort w0n in th3 end noobz lolololooo".
That's the reason Effort is getting so much attention. From losing to Tossgirl, to beating S-class, in a relatively short time.
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On June 19 2009 13:39 Fredflintstone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2009 10:23 genryou wrote:
Ok, you guys know Tossgirl? The top female Terran and the top player in female proleague?
Effort lose to her once.
i already heard some fanboy bitchin "lololol Effort w0n in th3 end noobz lolololooo". That's the reason Effort is getting so much attention. From losing to Tossgirl, to beating S-class, in a relatively short time.
clearly, he learner how to hack better, duh
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I get the feeling that all of CJ's new trio had nerve problems at one point or the other, not just Skyhigh.
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On June 19 2009 09:21 cz wrote:
Now #1 in ELO
Not likely to change either considering the minor league players he's scheduled to face.
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wow almost got over emotional reading hot_bid post on cj =']
looking forward to effort becoming the new king of the zergs
effort fighting~
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On June 19 2009 10:23 genryou wrote:
Ok, you guys know Tossgirl? The top female Terran and the top player in female proleague?
Effort lose to her once.
i already heard some fanboy bitchin "lololol Effort w0n in th3 end noobz lolololooo".
You know there's a purge going on right now, right? You really want to post like that?
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I don't think there's any way Effort comes out of his OSL group without at least 1 one loss.
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On June 20 2009 08:26 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2009 10:23 genryou wrote:
Ok, you guys know Tossgirl? The top female Terran and the top player in female proleague?
Effort lose to her once.
i already heard some fanboy bitchin "lololol Effort w0n in th3 end noobz lolololooo". You know there's a purge going on right now, right? You really want to post like that?
Kenningit was serious?
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effort is actually savior lol
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he could go27 and 3 in his next set of games, if he loses the osl/msl hes still just another zerg
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On June 20 2009 10:46 StorZerg wrote:
he could go27 and 3 in his next set of games, if he loses the osl/msl hes still just another zerg
53 - 6 and he'd just be another zerg?
Yea I think you're a tad delusional
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On June 20 2009 10:51 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 10:46 StorZerg wrote:
he could go27 and 3 in his next set of games, if he loses the osl/msl hes still just another zerg 53 - 6 and he'd just be another zerg? Yea I think you're a tad delusional
with no msl/osl gom. he'd fade fast......... (and no pr- league team win)
thats where it matters.
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Losing just the next OSL/MSL doesn't mean he will just turn to shit and not ever be anything.
It's his first time this high in both tourneys, and he could likely burn out in 1 if not both. I still look forward to great things from him.
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On June 20 2009 10:50 tree.hugger wrote:My favorite part of all of this is that EffOrt's Kespa ranking is #20, behind such luminaries as free[gm], BeSt, hyvaa, and HiyA. Anyone want to explain why Kespa's ranking system has it's head so deep in the sand?
because sand is so dense, it takes around 12 months for heads to move any significant distance
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On June 20 2009 11:00 Camlito wrote:
Losing just the next OSL/MSL doesn't mean he will just turn to shit and not ever be anything.
It's his first time this high in both tourneys, and he could likely burn out in 1 if not both. I still look forward to great things from him.
eah what i'm saying is he could get this amazing record but if he NEVER gets an osl/msl/gom 1st he just won't be that amazing imo
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You can't have an amazing record and never win an individual tournament because if you're good enough to get into the individuals, you either lose and your record takes a drastic turn by playing good players (like Leta last season) or you win it.
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On June 12 2009 07:00 Magic84 wrote:
25 wins - 3 losses (89.29%)
how good is that? beat the boss of zvz jd, flash, shows such ridiculous zvt, this is rarity.
this streak is better than any bonjwa's, just didn't win or progress too far in any SL yet.
yep and I predict he will not become as great as JD Flash Bisu or Stork. Watch his games closely and you might see that he is not as dominant as people say he is. He makes far too many mistakes espacially in longer games. His record will change soon because now he is in the starleagues and that's the place where you have to show yourself to be remembered. Just look at Sea, he was once the best player in proleague but noone really thinks of him like they think of jaedong.
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Like almost any player, I will root for Effort to become truly amazing I don't think he is there yet--though the streak is incredibly impressive, he's basically a proleague dominator (like Sea, again).
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On June 20 2009 11:24 theqat wrote:Like almost any player, I will root for Effort to become truly amazing I don't think he is there yet--though the streak is incredibly impressive, he's basically a proleague dominator (like Sea, again).
idk i'm not ready to hope over just yet.
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Wait, I have a question about ELO, before tonight's games, Effort had a higher ELO than Jaedong but trailed him in every MU-specific ELO. How does that work?
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On June 20 2009 15:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Wait, I have a question about ELO, before tonight's games, Effort had a higher ELO than Jaedong but trailed him in every MU-specific ELO. How does that work?
ELO inflates more with longer streaks, the last 10 games for each player are a good example (Effort's current streak versus all races is 8W)
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I still don't get it. Are you saying that because his overall elo has a better streak than his individual elo, he has a higher elo?
Or are you saying that because Effort has a better streak overall than Jd, he has a higher elo, but his streak isn't that big when you consider each MU individually?
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+ Show Spoiler +iron is obviously the next-next bonjwa (after effort) and effort is going to win all 3 starleagues anyway
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On June 20 2009 15:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Wait, I have a question about ELO, before tonight's games, Effort had a higher ELO than Jaedong but trailed him in every MU-specific ELO. How does that work?
Well the explanation I can think of seems very unlikely but it must be what happened.
The amount of points you gain for a win/lose for a loss under the ELO system is based on the difference in ELO between you and your opponent.
So, you would gain a different amount of points for your total ELO and matchup ELO if the person you played against had a skewed distribution. For example, Effort could have played a bunch of guys with average overall ELOs but bad vZ ELOs, while Jaedong could have played guys with good vZ ELOs but worse overall ELOs.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
impressive as well
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On June 20 2009 23:27 crucifix wrote:impressive as well
TvZ not the most balanced matchup and he didn't play these games all in a row. Not a real streak.
Flash and JD had it more impressive when it comes to crazy streaks.
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You call a 27-0 streak not impressive? :p
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On June 20 2009 23:41 SuperArc wrote:
You call a 27-0 streak not impressive? :p
He didn't say it wasn't impressive, he said it wasn't as impressive as streaks in *all games* instead of one mu.
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On June 20 2009 11:02 StorZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 11:00 Camlito wrote:
Losing just the next OSL/MSL doesn't mean he will just turn to shit and not ever be anything.
It's his first time this high in both tourneys, and he could likely burn out in 1 if not both. I still look forward to great things from him. eah what i'm saying is he could get this amazing record but if he NEVER gets an osl/msl/gom 1st he just won't be that amazing imo
I guess midas and sea aren't that amazing at all
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On June 20 2009 23:40 Magic84 wrote:TvZ not the most balanced matchup and he didn't play these games all in a row. Not a real streak. Flash and JD had it more impressive when it comes to crazy streaks.
Jaedong is tied with Oov for games won in a row at 13, losing out to the infamous Gorush 16 streak win. Thinking of Effort's weird 3 overall losses streak, Oov still beat him at that, too.
It'd be stupid to say that anyone at any time was ever as dominant as Oov was in his height. Only Boxer might come close but hell, I don't know too much about Boxer's era so I could be a little off.
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Damn, his ELO just dropped like a rock and thanks to the wins from last night, flash took #1.
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On June 20 2009 23:55 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 23:40 Magic84 wrote:On June 20 2009 23:27 crucifix wrote:impressive as well TvZ not the most balanced matchup and he didn't play these games all in a row. Not a real streak. Flash and JD had it more impressive when it comes to crazy streaks. Jaedong is tied with Oov for games won in a row at 13, losing out to the infamous Gorush 16 streak win. Thinking of Effort's weird 3 overall losses streak, Oov still beat him at that, too. It'd be stupid to say that anyone at any time was ever as dominant as Oov was in his height. Only Boxer might come close but hell, I don't know too much about Boxer's era so I could be a little off.
boxer wasnt close. Savior was though.
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Useless speculation proceeds
+ Show Spoiler +
From minor league
herO[jOin] (Z) > IrOn (P)
Mingu (P) > herO[jOin] (Z)
effort < Iron
Mingu >> all *_*
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we updating his record as this goes on?
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On June 21 2009 00:28 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 23:55 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 20 2009 23:40 Magic84 wrote:On June 20 2009 23:27 crucifix wrote:impressive as well TvZ not the most balanced matchup and he didn't play these games all in a row. Not a real streak. Flash and JD had it more impressive when it comes to crazy streaks. Jaedong is tied with Oov for games won in a row at 13, losing out to the infamous Gorush 16 streak win. Thinking of Effort's weird 3 overall losses streak, Oov still beat him at that, too. It'd be stupid to say that anyone at any time was ever as dominant as Oov was in his height. Only Boxer might come close but hell, I don't know too much about Boxer's era so I could be a little off. boxer wasnt close. Savior was though.
boxer WAS close, during and prior to the starleague he lost to reach.
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Batisterio-PiB
Brazil219 Posts
Effort have to prove himself in SL! Oov's record is a lot better because he did playing SF, and finals! (So he played 2 BO5, one against the Bownja Nada!)
Effort played proleague, preliminaries.....
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Batisterio-PiB
Brazil219 Posts
On June 20 2009 10:46 StorZerg wrote:
he could go27 and 3 in his next set of games, if he loses the osl/msl hes still just another zerg
It's impossible to do 27-3 and loses GOM/OSL/MSL! If he does 27-3 he will win all titles!
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On June 21 2009 01:48 Batisterio-PiB wrote:
Effort have to prove himself in SL! Oov's record is a lot better because he did playing SF, and finals! (So he played 2 BO5, one against the Bownja Nada!)
Effort played proleague, preliminaries.....
Can he?
He will be playing ZvZ against Jaedong in the Round 16 of Baccus 2009.
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On June 21 2009 01:26 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2009 00:28 fusionsdf wrote:On June 20 2009 23:55 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 20 2009 23:40 Magic84 wrote:On June 20 2009 23:27 crucifix wrote:impressive as well TvZ not the most balanced matchup and he didn't play these games all in a row. Not a real streak. Flash and JD had it more impressive when it comes to crazy streaks. Jaedong is tied with Oov for games won in a row at 13, losing out to the infamous Gorush 16 streak win. Thinking of Effort's weird 3 overall losses streak, Oov still beat him at that, too. It'd be stupid to say that anyone at any time was ever as dominant as Oov was in his height. Only Boxer might come close but hell, I don't know too much about Boxer's era so I could be a little off. boxer wasnt close. Savior was though. boxer WAS close, during and prior to the starleague he lost to reach.
I wish I could find those old graphs. Someone (I think fomos or pgr) graphed the careers of all 4 bonjwa. Boxer/Nada tended to be more flat/consistent while Savior/oov had a huge spike far greater than any point on the boxer/nada lines.
If someone could find that topic it would be great. In the meantime, all concerns with ELO included, I still think this is a decent indicator until I can find better ones.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/#tblt-1013-1-5-DESC
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lol Effort lost 36 pts in one game. That should illustrate to everyone that there are no easy points in ELO.
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Also, since this thread is now partly about the top ELO players, YEAHHHHHHHHHH FLASH back at #1 !!
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It's so damn hard to maintain 2300+. Bisu/Jaedong/Flash only seem to be able to do it for a few short weeks at a time.
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Henceforth, IrOn vs EffOrt on June 20th, 2009 shall be referred to as the game that ended the streak.
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Effort is more impressive than oov's because players are better.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8890/streak.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.imagedump.com/image.cgi?file=549912.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss296/super_katusa/jd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9693/gorushspree.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images47.fotosik.pl/148/e8efc74cbd7c0a57med.jpg)
