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51449 Posts
Since pachi requested I actually make a discussion about the issue, I'll make it short.
KeSPA, although as 'great' as they may be, have caused more trouble to the Starcraft industry as much as they have improved it.
Let's first talk about the 'positives' that KeSPA has introduced into programing:
- A centralized, e-Sports association in Korea (largest e-Sports center in the world)
- A dedicated map making team for new release Proleague maps
- Provided more publicity, exposure to the general population
- Larger prize money, appearance fees etc.
and a little more which I have forgot.
and now... the list of negatives.
- A set of rules which at times do not make sense at all/do not use logic.
Examples:
Leta DQ'ed for accidentally typing 'pp' when requesting for a pause
Ruby DQ'ed for typing 'ㅎㅎ' in his surrender
Nal_rA's DQ (in the Ace Match) for accidentally pausing
- Taking the sport of Starcraft to a point where KeSPA's enforcement is a joke.
Examples:
'Entry Note states that players are scanned with metal detectors to ensure cheating does not occur'
and the major one I find which boils my blood the most;
- KeSPA's hi-jacking of the Proleague name and rights.
Which caused....
- MBCgame's renowned 'All-Kill League', Team League, to stop running.
- Trying to 'over commercialize' Starcraft/Proleague.
and many, many more reasons I won't go into, you can read about this and related issues in these threads.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50641
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50648
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=51025
So, how do we fix the issue of KeSPA? A players association? Support for 'rebel' leagues such as GOM?
We all know, as much as we all love Starcraft, we are aware without KeSPA, there is technically no hope for it to continue running as Korea's second most watched sport.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
don't forget the phantom broadcasting rights fiasco
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51449 Posts
On May 13 2009 19:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
don't forget the phantom broadcasting rights fiasco
yes, i was suppose to put that under the 'kespa takes over proleague rights' topic.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
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bad with it
worse without it
thats the sad truth
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
Progamers go on a demonstration. Koreans are fucking good at that.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
I think the progamers need an association to protect players from + Show Spoiler +BS like what happened tonight.
+ Show Spoiler +Imo Gorush should've just stayed in the booth until they agreed to play out the game.
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Ending of 'All-kill league': Prevent Jaedong from bringing Oz up to 2nd position in winners league (oz cannot survive without him)
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They should take their rulebook or whatsoever. Read it. Work it over and throw the old one away... I mean.. flaming is bad. But just mixing up some keys and typing "a" or whatever which leads to a forfeit loss is a bit hard. You should not punish everything the same way...
Maybe next season some Proteams will not play OSL/MSL but instead just gom :D
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they need to rethink their priorities
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 13 2009 20:03 cHicKeLoR wrote:
They should take their rulebook or whatsoever. Read it. Work it over and throw the old one away... I mean.. flaming is bad. But just mixing up some keys and typing "a" or whatever which leads to a forfeit loss is a bit hard. You should not punish everything the same way...
Maybe next season some Proteams will not play OSL/MSL but instead just gom :D
five teams dont participate in GOM because kespa has a hardon for their attempted monopoly
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
Yeah, destroying a tournament with a lot of potential for great games and with great casters.
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On May 13 2009 20:11 konadora wrote:
Yeah, destroying a tournament with a lot of potential for great games and with great casters.
And not to mention, crushing dreams and hopes of a progamer..
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I'd agree with there's a need for an e-sports governing body to help regulate the activities and events that goes on, but NOT like this! Their acting like a dictator instead of a governing body, it felt like progamers and e-sports has been pushed down to the level of, u can't piss unless we tell u to piss, and u don't eat until we tell u to shit unless Kespa says so situation.
How the hell do u expect e-sport to grow with a dictator ship like that?
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We should support GOMtv more now ... dogspa really destroys the beauty of starcraft
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Like every major sport with a governing body that has indefinite control, the players NEED to form a players' union so that they can work things out like this. KeSPA is necessary, they do bring positives, and a lot of their things have good intentions but are carried out completely wrong. A players' union is the one thing that can truly help avert such issues and bring the whole rule set to an agreeable middle point.
In terms of KeSPA, referees need to be educated properly on the game, situational training and more. I dunno if they are at this point, but it appears that they are not from some of the decision making. Also, KeSPA needs to take a GOOD look at their rules manual and go through it with a fine-toothed comb and determine what is really necessary, where wording can be clarified and more.
KeSPA is trying to make improvements, as was seen with this recent rules change. However, tonight's incident showed that in KeSPA's attempt to prevent repeats of BackHo's infamous incident in the Batoo OSL, they are neglecting proper judgment and assessment of the situations at hand while trying to make examples of innocent players.
No governing body for a major sports organization is perfect, that's for sure. But KeSPA rates as one of the worst that I've ever seen in anything and they aren't helping their case by not taking more action to keep the situations under control appropriately.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
Wasn't it Incruit OSL and not Batoo OSL?
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51449 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
O ok nvm, I felt that it was longer since that happened
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Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck..
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On May 13 2009 20:23 Art.FeeL wrote:
We should support GOMtv more now ... dogspa really destroys the beauty of starcraft
THis has my vote
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they still havent learn from the leta mistake. son of a .
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On May 13 2009 22:18 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 20:23 Art.FeeL wrote:
We should support GOMtv more now ... dogspa really destroys the beauty of starcraft THis has my vote
I Aggree
Even if GOM doesn't have all team, it's really good tournement
<3 Gom
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They really need to form a players association. It's the best way to solve the problem.
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could we get someone in the korean scene(NeverGG/Artosis/Idra/Tasteless) give us some info about this commotion its causing korea? what are the general reaction of most pro-gamers about this?
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Kespa has helped starcraft overall, but if they weren't so concerned about $$ things would be much better.
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I am thinking... What would happen if the teams decide not to follow KeSPA's regulations and make another organization that does the same thing but with much better rules?
Think of it like a soccer association - they allow the footballer certain freedoms as not every curse during a game is sanctioned and if it is it is not this ridiculous like this DQs.
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For everyone who thinks supporting GOM only is the answer, that's foolish. Especially with less than 100% of the teams participating (4 or 5 are holding out?), the endeavor would be wasted. The action needs to come mainly from within the depths of the Korean players themselves. They need to organize and force talks with KeSPA in order to bring about reform.
Like I said earlier, KeSPA has the right intentions with their rules, they just go about handling it the wrong way.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Really KeSPA's biggest crime is trying to muscle GOM out of the scene - a company willing to pump a ton of money into bringing their sport to a mostly untapped market. It boggles my mind how uninterested (angry, even) they seem in reaching a wider audience.
This is just awful for business all around, we can always hope for a total rehaul of the system with SC2 some day.
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It's important to set standards and it's better for Kespa to uniformly enforce its rules rather than engaging in the exciting prospect of determining what's just a mistake and what's more sinister.
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Doesn't this sound a little bit like:
pros:
- Kespa made programming possible
- without them bw would have died a long time ago
cons:
- but they made a few mistakes like in that one game at that one time
- they're capitalists like 99.9% of the commercial corporations on the planet
Yea! We'd be much better off without out them? Or do you think Gom, MBC or OGN would prioritize what if they had to choose between self profit Vs making your life as a spectator any better? o.O Do you think those would have done much different were they in Kespa's skin? Should we hate one and love the other because of their position?
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Small nitpick; what is wrong with scanning players with metal detectors? Seems perfectly fine/reasonable to me.
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
This is all under the assumption that Kespa cares for the quality of their product, ie the quality of games and gamers.
Kespa is run by a bunch of old men from influential IT companies mixed in with government officials who weren't competent enough to run a real project.
Kespa was very quick to centralize all SC related business and claim rights and establish authority.
They are very slow to do anything else, including insuring the well-being of gamers.
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On May 14 2009 02:00 HonestTea wrote:
This is all under the assumption that Kespa cares for the quality of their product, ie the quality of games and gamers.
Kespa is run by a bunch of old men from influential IT companies mixed in with government officials who weren't competent enough to run a real project.
Kespa was very quick to centralize all SC related business and claim rights and establish authority.
They are very slow to do anything else, including insuring the well-being of gamers.
That makes sense to me.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 14 2009 01:39 VIB wrote:Doesn't this sound a little bit like: Show nested quote +pros:
- Kespa made programming possible
- without them bw would have died a long time ago
cons:
- but they made a few mistakes like in that one game at that one time
- they're capitalists like 99.9% of the commercial corporations on the planet
Yea! We'd be much better off without out them? Or do you think Gom, MBC or OGN would prioritize what if they had to choose between self profit Vs making your life as a spectator any better? o.O Do you think those would have done much different were they in Kespa's skin? Should we hate one and love the other because of their position?
programming? the fuck?
kespa didn't make progaming possible, the original kespa made some headway and good moves for making sure players were treated well, then new guys took over kespa, they came in halfway through and decided they owned progaming and have done nothing but create and carry out terrible rules ever since
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This is all under the assumption that Kespa cares for the quality of their product, ie the quality of games and gamers. Kespa cares the most about the same thing that Gom, MBC, OGN, IEG, Blizzard, Microsoft and any other capitalist cares the most: Making money. Delivering a good product is just one of the many means to an end. If for whatever reason making a good product gets in the way of making the best short term profit. All of those will choose the same option. Moving their arse to solve a small mistake, for example, costs them money. So they won't move it unless it is really clear as day that doing otherwise would imply in severe losses.
Hating them for that, or wishing we were better off without them sounds a little bit superficial imho.
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United States13896 Posts
On May 13 2009 22:12 AzureEye wrote:
Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck..
MBC's All-Kill league =/= Winners League
On May 13 2009 20:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 20:03 cHicKeLoR wrote:
They should take their rulebook or whatsoever. Read it. Work it over and throw the old one away... I mean.. flaming is bad. But just mixing up some keys and typing "a" or whatever which leads to a forfeit loss is a bit hard. You should not punish everything the same way...
Maybe next season some Proteams will not play OSL/MSL but instead just gom :D five teams dont participate in GOM because kespa has a hardon for their attempted monopoly
No, four teams don't participate in GOM because their owners do not believe it is in their best interests. KeSPA only holds part of the blame because they won't force those teams to participate by sanctioning GOM's leagues.
KeSPA has made a lot of bad decisions over the years but people need to realize that getting rid of them now would surely mean the end of competitive BW as we know it. Making rash statements like "the teams should just go create a new organization" or the like are just foolish. 90% of the problems we all are miffed about could be solved if there was a players association which helped maintain a balance of power between KeSPA and the players.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 14 2009 02:30 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 22:12 AzureEye wrote:
Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck.. MBC's All-Kill league =/= Winners League Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 20:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 13 2009 20:03 cHicKeLoR wrote:
They should take their rulebook or whatsoever. Read it. Work it over and throw the old one away... I mean.. flaming is bad. But just mixing up some keys and typing "a" or whatever which leads to a forfeit loss is a bit hard. You should not punish everything the same way...
Maybe next season some Proteams will not play OSL/MSL but instead just gom :D five teams dont participate in GOM because kespa has a hardon for their attempted monopoly No, four teams don't participate in GOM because their owners do not believe it is in their best interests. KeSPA only holds part of the blame because they won't force those teams to participate by sanctioning GOM's leagues. KeSPA has made a lot of bad decisions over the years but people need to realize that getting rid of them now would surely mean the end of competitive BW as we know it. Making rash statements like "the teams should just go create a new organization" or the like are just foolish. 90% of the problems we all are miffed about could be solved if there was a players association which helped maintain a balance of power between KeSPA and the players.
estro and t1 don't play because of the IEG/KeSPA connection
OGN/MBC dont play because the corporates see gom as competition AND they fear legal action from kespa when their players play in something not kespa sanctioned as is defined in the broadcasting rights that kespa created and sold to IEG
ace doesnt play for whatever reason
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United States13896 Posts
ace does play in Gom.
What basis would KeSPA/IEG have to sue MBC/OGN if they let their players play in GOM? I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Those teams don't play purely because OGN/MBC don't want the added competition. KeSPA doesn't have the power to dictate what events teams can not participate in - they can only tell them which events the teams absolutely have to participate in. (and that's pretty much limited to PL)
Basically what I'm asking is what clause in the broadcasting rights makes MBC and OGN's progaming teams KeSPA's bitch?
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On May 14 2009 02:10 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +This is all under the assumption that Kespa cares for the quality of their product, ie the quality of games and gamers. Kespa cares the most about the same thing that Gom, MBC, OGN, IEG, Blizzard, Microsoft and any other capitalist cares the most: Making money. Delivering a good product is just one of the many means to an end. If for whatever reason making a good product gets in the way of making the best short term profit. All of those will choose the same option. Moving their arse to solve a small mistake, for example, costs them money. So they won't move it unless it is really clear as day that doing otherwise would imply in severe losses. Hating them for that, or wishing we were better off without them sounds a little bit superficial imho.
Im gonna guess you have no idea how business works.
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On May 14 2009 03:35 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 02:10 VIB wrote:This is all under the assumption that Kespa cares for the quality of their product, ie the quality of games and gamers. Kespa cares the most about the same thing that Gom, MBC, OGN, IEG, Blizzard, Microsoft and any other capitalist cares the most: Making money. Delivering a good product is just one of the many means to an end. If for whatever reason making a good product gets in the way of making the best short term profit. All of those will choose the same option. Moving their arse to solve a small mistake, for example, costs them money. So they won't move it unless it is really clear as day that doing otherwise would imply in severe losses. Hating them for that, or wishing we were better off without them sounds a little bit superficial imho. Im gonna guess you have no idea how business works. Thanks for your feedback! Customer satisfaction is our top priority. So your opinion is very important to us!
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I don't like it saying that it's fine if KeSPA only wants to make money. That's not a good thing. A corporation is made up of individuals, and just because they're collectively called "Microsoft" that doesn't mean we expect them to abandon their moral compass and do whatever it takes to earn money.
Edit: Well, that's exactly what we expect from Microsoft, but you get my point, right?
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edit: nvm winners league still intact 
this however applies
\/
freaking rules billion rules.
i think its because its a game and not really a sport they try to make up rules to make it sound more legit.
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On May 14 2009 06:33 Mykill wrote:freaking rules billion rules.
i think its because its a game and not really a sport they try to make up rules to make it sound more legit.
Thats a ridiculously stupid statement. The rules were placed for a reason, inorder to avoid confusion after certain events; the rules were poorly constructed though.
And I'm pretty sure a game where players practice 9-14 hours a day in leagues involving thousands of dollars is legit.
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United States4126 Posts
Can someone explain what exactly a metal detector scan is supposed to check for? What's metal and can help a player in the game? Whatever it is, shouldn't everyone be able to see it? Afterall, they play inside clear booths, not private rooms or something.
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On May 14 2009 02:30 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 22:12 AzureEye wrote:
Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck.. MBC's All-Kill league =/= Winners League
Could you explain what the MBC All-kill league was (and show us on the doll where KESPA touched it), for us new kids?
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:33 Kinky wrote:
Can someone explain what exactly a metal detector scan is supposed to check for? What's metal and can help a player in the game? Whatever it is, shouldn't everyone be able to see it? Afterall, they play inside clear booths, not private rooms or something.
a little vibrator that vibrates if the other guy is doing a proxy or some stupid shit
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Even if you take away Kespa you will need another org to take its place, and it'll be the same down the line.
Kespa's fine. They're making changes.
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players association, fund it right now
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:37 CDRdude wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 02:30 p4NDemik wrote:On May 13 2009 22:12 AzureEye wrote:
Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck.. MBC's All-Kill league =/= Winners League Could you explain what the MBC All-kill league was (and show us on the doll where KESPA touched it), for us new kids?
MBC All-Kill league is, afaik, similar structure to Winner's League (WL borrowed the structure, but w/e), and included leagues such as the LG-IBM MTL (MBC Team League), MBCMovies TL and Tucson TL. MBC ran these solely.
Edit: Or were you being sarcastic? I can't tell :<
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I'm reminded of
-(Boxer to Savior) I ask you to do me a favor. I tried to do this before I went to army but I think it is late for me to do it now. I hope you can create a player union type of thing where influential players gather to create a better environment for less known player base.
▲ Savior= It is impossible to even imagine players from different teams to gather. Too much team based...
▲ Boxer= But if no action is taken, it will only get worse. Even after I returned from army, I thought that it was very unfair for players.
▲ Shim Hyun Team Manager= I think it is best if we make another time to discuss this matter. In the case of baseball league, a lot of places and people provided help for player association. I think it is same for e-Sports that we need a lot of help from people to do this.
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On May 13 2009 20:02 kaleidoscope wrote:
Ending of 'All-kill league': Prevent Jaedong from bringing Oz up to 2nd position in winners league (oz cannot survive without him)
On May 13 2009 22:12 AzureEye wrote:
Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck..
oh my god...
NO...Winner's League was a KeSPA proleague thing.
They're talking about an older team league MBCgame put on before KeSPA took over...this was like way back. It was in All-Kill format, but was only bo5 I think.
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On May 14 2009 03:22 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 02:30 p4NDemik wrote:On May 13 2009 22:12 AzureEye wrote:
Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck.. MBC's All-Kill league =/= Winners League On May 13 2009 20:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 13 2009 20:03 cHicKeLoR wrote:
They should take their rulebook or whatsoever. Read it. Work it over and throw the old one away... I mean.. flaming is bad. But just mixing up some keys and typing "a" or whatever which leads to a forfeit loss is a bit hard. You should not punish everything the same way...
Maybe next season some Proteams will not play OSL/MSL but instead just gom :D five teams dont participate in GOM because kespa has a hardon for their attempted monopoly No, four teams don't participate in GOM because their owners do not believe it is in their best interests. KeSPA only holds part of the blame because they won't force those teams to participate by sanctioning GOM's leagues. KeSPA has made a lot of bad decisions over the years but people need to realize that getting rid of them now would surely mean the end of competitive BW as we know it. Making rash statements like "the teams should just go create a new organization" or the like are just foolish. 90% of the problems we all are miffed about could be solved if there was a players association which helped maintain a balance of power between KeSPA and the players. estro and t1 don't play because of the IEG/KeSPA connection OGN/MBC dont play because the corporates see gom as competition AND they fear legal action from kespa when their players play in something not kespa sanctioned as is defined in the broadcasting rights that kespa created and sold to IEG ace doesnt play for whatever reason
Come on FakeSteve, ACE does indeed play in GOM this season. Aren't you watching?
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On May 14 2009 08:44 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 20:02 kaleidoscope wrote:
Ending of 'All-kill league': Prevent Jaedong from bringing Oz up to 2nd position in winners league (oz cannot survive without him) Show nested quote +On May 13 2009 22:12 AzureEye wrote:
Wtf. The winner's league is gone because of Kespa? fuck.. oh my god... NO...Winner's League was a KeSPA proleague thing. They're talking about an older team league MBCgame put on before KeSPA took over...this was like way back. It was in All-Kill format, but was only bo5 I think.
It was Bo7
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to anyone else who follows north american e-sports, doesn't kepsa remind you of the CPL a bit? 
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51449 Posts
well unlike cpl they actually payed out players.
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imo they just need a new batch of much more intelligent people making the rules and such
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On May 14 2009 03:27 p4NDemik wrote:
ace does play in Gom.
What basis would KeSPA/IEG have to sue MBC/OGN if they let their players play in GOM? I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Those teams don't play purely because OGN/MBC don't want the added competition. KeSPA doesn't have the power to dictate what events teams can not participate in - they can only tell them which events the teams absolutely have to participate in. (and that's pretty much limited to PL)
Basically what I'm asking is what clause in the broadcasting rights makes MBC and OGN's progaming teams KeSPA's bitch?
MBC would pull their sponsorship of Hero if the coaches ignored them. Legal battle with KeSPA/IEG > losing a small portion of their income.
If MBC pulled their sponsorship of Hero, Hero would essentially die and the players would go to other teams. They can't even keep their stars from leaving with the money MBC sends to them. (July, Bisu, TheZerg and they almost lost Pusan)
So in a sense they can tell Hero what to do (OGN isn't even a part of this anymore since Hite owns Sparkyz now) and unless the coaches want to lose their jobs and see their hardwork disappear they listen.
and KeSPA and IEG are butt buddies, IEG owns the rights to PL and MBC is sure as hell not pulling out of PL over 1 league that is in competition with them.
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United States13896 Posts
On May 14 2009 12:00 omG.[RaYnE] wrote:
imo they just need a new batch of much more intelligent people making the rules and such
It doesn't matter who is making the rules on KeSPA's side, in the end, they need players' input to make rules that actually do what they are intended to do, and not bullshit like what has been happening.
On May 14 2009 12:11 Pioneer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 03:27 p4NDemik wrote:
ace does play in Gom.
What basis would KeSPA/IEG have to sue MBC/OGN if they let their players play in GOM? I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Those teams don't play purely because OGN/MBC don't want the added competition. KeSPA doesn't have the power to dictate what events teams can not participate in - they can only tell them which events the teams absolutely have to participate in. (and that's pretty much limited to PL)
Basically what I'm asking is what clause in the broadcasting rights makes MBC and OGN's progaming teams KeSPA's bitch? MBC would pull their sponsorship of Hero if the coaches ignored them. Legal battle with KeSPA/IEG > losing a small portion of their income. If MBC pulled their sponsorship of Hero, Hero would essentially die and the players would go to other teams. They can't even keep their stars from leaving with the money MBC sends to them. (July, Bisu, TheZerg and they almost lost Pusan) So in a sense they can tell Hero what to do (OGN isn't even a part of this anymore since Hite owns Sparkyz now) and unless the coaches want to lose their jobs and see their hardwork disappear they listen. and KeSPA and IEG are butt buddies, IEG owns the rights to PL and MBC is sure as hell not pulling out of PL over 1 league that is in competition with them.
Yes, I know MBC would never go along with the team going rogue, that's not what I'm talking about, because that will never happen. What I want to know is how KeSPA would have any legal basis to go after MBC/OGN if they (for whatever reason) changed their minds and let their teams participate in GOM events.
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51449 Posts
I don't understand why people think hite own Sparkyz now. They don't own anything except the right to have their brand plastered next to the team name.
OGN still run the team.
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On May 14 2009 12:11 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 12:00 omG.[RaYnE] wrote:
imo they just need a new batch of much more intelligent people making the rules and such It doesn't matter who is making the rules on KeSPA's side, in the end, they need players' input to make rules that actually do what they are intended to do, and not bullshit like what has been happening.
Unless a union is formed KeSPA is going to keep doing what they want. Unions are hard to form and require lots of paperwork and legal footwork and you have to remember that even the coaches of the teams are still young guys (for the most part). This is a lot to place on the shoulders of 20 something year olds who already have issues to deal with outside of progaming and a strict intense schedule.
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On May 14 2009 12:11 p4NDemik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 12:00 omG.[RaYnE] wrote:
imo they just need a new batch of much more intelligent people making the rules and such It doesn't matter who is making the rules on KeSPA's side, in the end, they need players' input to make rules that actually do what they are intended to do, and not bullshit like what has been happening. Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 12:11 Pioneer wrote:On May 14 2009 03:27 p4NDemik wrote:
ace does play in Gom.
What basis would KeSPA/IEG have to sue MBC/OGN if they let their players play in GOM? I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Those teams don't play purely because OGN/MBC don't want the added competition. KeSPA doesn't have the power to dictate what events teams can not participate in - they can only tell them which events the teams absolutely have to participate in. (and that's pretty much limited to PL)
Basically what I'm asking is what clause in the broadcasting rights makes MBC and OGN's progaming teams KeSPA's bitch? MBC would pull their sponsorship of Hero if the coaches ignored them. Legal battle with KeSPA/IEG > losing a small portion of their income. If MBC pulled their sponsorship of Hero, Hero would essentially die and the players would go to other teams. They can't even keep their stars from leaving with the money MBC sends to them. (July, Bisu, TheZerg and they almost lost Pusan) So in a sense they can tell Hero what to do (OGN isn't even a part of this anymore since Hite owns Sparkyz now) and unless the coaches want to lose their jobs and see their hardwork disappear they listen. and KeSPA and IEG are butt buddies, IEG owns the rights to PL and MBC is sure as hell not pulling out of PL over 1 league that is in competition with them. Yes, I know MBC would never go along with the team going rogue, that's not what I'm talking about, because that will never happen. What I want to know is how KeSPA would have any legal basis to go after MBC/OGN if they (for whatever reason) changed their minds and let their teams participate in GOM events.
Doesn't matter if their is legal basis. It all comes back to the fact that IEG owns the 3 major leagues in Korea, KeSPA is essentially IEG's pawn, IEG doesn't want GOM to succeed so they make sure KeSPA doesn't sanction them, a combination of some teams not wanting their players to play in a non sanctioned league and being essentially owned by IEG makes it so these teams won't go play in them.
IEG doesn't need a legal basis when there is no players union and their money is enough to make people do what they want.
sorry for the double post.
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The biggest problem that Starcraft has is that it's too small. Yes, it's big compared to other competitive games but it's minute compared to other professional sports.
In such a situation, it is natural for there only to be one governing body and for it to be made up of retards. I don't think the industry is quite big enough to have 2 serious competitors, and I don't think it ever will. Starcraft's growth potential is very limited.
You can see how small the inudstry is with GOM. They're organising their own league. If it gets big enough, the KESPA leagues will die and GOM will have a chance to take over KESPA's position. But right now, 4 teams aren't involved. That's 1/3rd of the Korean Starcraft industry!
A player's union would help, as some people have pointed out. But no matter what, I think Starcraft is stuck in a situation where nobody really likes what's happening but everyone goes along with it anyway because that's the only way it'll work out. Especially during hard economis times like these, nobody would want to rock the boat. If teams form a union that threatens to boycott matches, sponsors will drop them because they aren't giving their brands airtime.
Maybe when the economy rebounds there'll be more sponsorship money floating around and a better chance at an organisation overtaking KESPA. If it rebounds just as SC2 is taking off, another organisation may be able to steal first mover advantage from KESPA and establish itself as a viable alternative.
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On May 14 2009 12:15 Pioneer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 12:11 p4NDemik wrote:On May 14 2009 12:00 omG.[RaYnE] wrote:
imo they just need a new batch of much more intelligent people making the rules and such It doesn't matter who is making the rules on KeSPA's side, in the end, they need players' input to make rules that actually do what they are intended to do, and not bullshit like what has been happening. Unless a union is formed KeSPA is going to keep doing what they want. Unions are hard to form and require lots of paperwork and legal footwork and you have to remember that even the coaches of the teams are still young guys (for the most part). This is a lot to place on the shoulders of 20 something year olds who already have issues to deal with outside of progaming and a strict intense schedule.
And sponsors do not like unions that boycott matches. If my team boycotted a match, I'd drop sponsorship because I can't count on them to give my brand airtime.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On May 14 2009 12:14 GTR wrote:
I don't understand why people think hite own Sparkyz now. They don't own anything except the right to have their brand plastered next to the team name.
OGN still run the team.
MBC wants to say 'no' to Hite, they've been using the name 'Sparkyz' and not 'Hite' all along. What's the point of selling the naming rights then >___>
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51449 Posts
free income for little effort except putting hite in their ingame names, logo and uniforms?
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United States13896 Posts
On May 14 2009 12:19 Pioneer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 12:11 p4NDemik wrote:On May 14 2009 12:00 omG.[RaYnE] wrote:
imo they just need a new batch of much more intelligent people making the rules and such It doesn't matter who is making the rules on KeSPA's side, in the end, they need players' input to make rules that actually do what they are intended to do, and not bullshit like what has been happening. On May 14 2009 12:11 Pioneer wrote:On May 14 2009 03:27 p4NDemik wrote:
ace does play in Gom.
What basis would KeSPA/IEG have to sue MBC/OGN if they let their players play in GOM? I don't see the connection you're trying to make. Those teams don't play purely because OGN/MBC don't want the added competition. KeSPA doesn't have the power to dictate what events teams can not participate in - they can only tell them which events the teams absolutely have to participate in. (and that's pretty much limited to PL)
Basically what I'm asking is what clause in the broadcasting rights makes MBC and OGN's progaming teams KeSPA's bitch? MBC would pull their sponsorship of Hero if the coaches ignored them. Legal battle with KeSPA/IEG > losing a small portion of their income. If MBC pulled their sponsorship of Hero, Hero would essentially die and the players would go to other teams. They can't even keep their stars from leaving with the money MBC sends to them. (July, Bisu, TheZerg and they almost lost Pusan) So in a sense they can tell Hero what to do (OGN isn't even a part of this anymore since Hite owns Sparkyz now) and unless the coaches want to lose their jobs and see their hardwork disappear they listen. and KeSPA and IEG are butt buddies, IEG owns the rights to PL and MBC is sure as hell not pulling out of PL over 1 league that is in competition with them. Yes, I know MBC would never go along with the team going rogue, that's not what I'm talking about, because that will never happen. What I want to know is how KeSPA would have any legal basis to go after MBC/OGN if they (for whatever reason) changed their minds and let their teams participate in GOM events. Doesn't matter if their is legal basis. It all comes back to the fact that IEG owns the 3 major leagues in Korea, KeSPA is essentially IEG's pawn, IEG doesn't want GOM to succeed so they make sure KeSPA doesn't sanction them, a combination of some teams not wanting their players to play in a non sanctioned league and being essentially owned by IEG makes it so these teams won't go play in them. IEG doesn't need a legal basis when there is no players union and their money is enough to make people do what they want. sorry for the double post.
Nothing I didn't know already. IEG owns the broadcasting rights to MSL and ProLeague btw, not OSL I'm pretty sure.
The original question was directed at FS, who said that OGN/MBC would fear legal action if their teams participated in GOM. I'm still wondering what said legal action would be.
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EPT
