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On March 27 2009 22:47 WhuazGoodNjaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2009 20:33 Diomedes wrote:On March 27 2009 20:17 WhuazGoodNjaggah wrote:
You wont suddenly beat bisu because you have superior hotkeys.
I won't suddenly beat Bisu if I have maphack either. if you had half a brain you would put that statement into relation. i would own my clanmate hard if i turned mh on, but when i change medic key from e to a i wont suddenly win more vs him, the only thing changed is, that i wont miss my medics in a fight that often. i could also change the version to english everytime i play a TvZ, then the medic key would be changed too. wouldnt that be an amazing way to play the game? especially because it makes it impossible for me to play random, what if i suddenly have to play TvZ? Show nested quote +as you are canadian you may get it like this better: if in the NHL only 1 size of hockeysticks would be allowed wouldnt that be fucking unfair the the ppll not falling into the norm? or even better, 1 size skates, wouldnt that be amazing, no more unfair advantages for ppl with big foots and therefor a better stance? just like with hotkeys, its idiotic to not have customizable settings. ppl with small fingers or not freaky alien finger who spread like crazy have an UNFAIR disadvantage. But if there is a rule against, like in SC, it would be cheating. There's tons of sports where some equipment is banned. Like in cycling or F1. Same is true in SC. Some things you are not allowed to use. yes and we as community make the rules. its not like different tires are banned in cycling, its not different skate sizes which are banned in icehockey its not different shoecolor thats banned in football. its fucking ridiculous to ban such things which make no big difference especially if there IS already different things of that. we as community shouldnt cry about things like keycraft we should cry because of maphacks and queue hacks and multi select and multi command and drop warnings and shit like this. Show nested quote +And yeah, its unfair. Since if you were to use the normal way to play you would be a lot worse. So the difference between the normal hotkeys and the way you hack the game is quite big, I assume. Why else make so much effort to break the rules. ok, i underlined and bolded the shit you spit. you dont even know how much different it is, yet you dare to talk about it like you are wisdom itself. i am currently playing with normal settings as im simply to lazy to change it, why? BECAUSE IT DOESNT MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE! f.e. i played a TvZ vs my clanmate, we are about equal me a bit better than him (like i win 4 out of 7). this TvZ took like 50mins, i won but i was fucking angry after the game, because i left my medics like 2 or 3 times behind, it was just unecessary but it didnt decide the game. he didnt win the game because i have a fucked up key setting, but it significantly lowered the fun for me to play TvZ and i love to play TvZ. Show nested quote +Also, cheaters are banned on TL.net. Pianoman basically made a guide to cheating. It's not just banned in WCG and any other tournament. It's also considered cheating on iccup, where most people reading here play. Not to mention third party programs aren't allowed on bnet. Not even chaos launcher is technically allowed. why you say chaos launcher (actually its plugins) is TECHNICALLY not allowed? its against the rules = its cheating = dont fucking treat it different. if you name it dont lower the fact just say it plain and correct. ChaosLauncher plugins = cheat/against the rules PERIOD! Show nested quote +Of course no harm is meant by all this. But that's all besides the point. All those WC3 people that claim SC is easy and then go and remap the keys greatly annoy me. It's almost like me playing them in WC3 and turning off auto rally and smart cast for them. wow your really ignorant. as if the skill in bw relies in the hotkey setup. Show nested quote +On March 27 2009 21:24 Scooge wrote:
What's the difference between this and a hack that allows multiple building selection? It's just a convenience for casual players right?
L2P the game the way it was designed and with its shortcomings and stop trying to get an advantage over people. you like hard numbers? i can tell you the difference. to make 10 zealots i can do it like this 1b2b3b4b5b6b7b8b9b0b b=build zealot or i can do it like this 1z2z3z4z5z6z7z8z9z0z this takes almost the same ammount of time, BUT with multiple buildings you do this: 1z thats 10 times less as actions as the other 2. dont make fucking shit comparings. its like comparing murder to stealing a chewing gum. also im not trying to get an advantage over someone when i adjust my hotkeys i just want to have the SAME as my opponent. my opponent can send his medics with a, i want to send my medics with a aswell, is that so much of an advantage i get? Show nested quote +On March 27 2009 21:39 meathook wrote:
This is considered cheating.. mods should lock this, imo. TL does not have guides on how to use oblivion, and this should be no different. then lock all the chaos launcher threads, advloader threads, apmlive threads, bwchart threads too, ok? they have about the same relation to oblivion like hacks as KeyCraft has. Show nested quote +On March 27 2009 20:17 WhuazGoodNjaggah wrote:On March 27 2009 20:03 Yaqoob wrote:
This is banned in any competitive tournament so I find its pretty stupid and it gives an unfair advantage online. no it does NOT give you an unfair advantage. you wont suddenly beat bisu because you have superior hotkeys. its unfair the other way arround, because f.e. in the german version you send medics with e instead of a and that fucking sucks to press 1a2a3e my medics often fall behind because of this. Well, it's your own fault for using fucking stupid german version of SC. Everyone plays with the english keys, learn to do so aswell. EDIT:Actually,Blizz should've set the same hotkey for all versions.. but you should not complain, you chose to play that version, you either get used to the hotkeys that are there or switch over to english version. No one is forcing you to use the german version and using keycraft is not an option, imo. noone is forcing me to use german version? in my country i can only buy either french or german version of starcraft. only because some mind crippled idiot like you tell me i cant play a game how i feel convinient without getting an unfair advantage i should buy another version of starcraft? oh and plz all the whiners, dont play maps like bluestorm, because they are all made with 3rd party programs and therefor violate the EULA.
Thank you!
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There's a recent post from someone, not sure who, about this topic, I'm too lazy to look for it and quote it, so I'll try to sum it up.
Basically has two points.
1. Changing hotkeys is frowned upon and illegal in most competitive play.
2. If you don't care about it being frowned upon, there is good reason to remap your hotkeys - Preparation for SC2 where hotkeys will be customizable.
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United States24555 Posts
I don't think that was me :O
2 Doesn't really make sense to me... do you really need to 'practice' mapping your hotkeys? When the game comes out we'll deal with it...
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On March 27 2009 23:20 micronesia wrote:
I don't think that was me :O
2 Doesn't really make sense to me... do you really need to 'practice' mapping your hotkeys? When the game comes out we'll deal with it...
Oh I'm not sure who it was then.
The point was that since you can remap hotkeys in sc2, you should prepare for it by, say, mapping the comsat scan hotkey to p now, so that when sc2 comes out, you can just put your scan to p, and you won't have to get used to a new hotkey.
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On March 27 2009 23:03 StylishVODs wrote:
I dont see how this can be considered cheating.
If i want to use other hotkeys its ok for me to buy the german starcraft cd and play with those hotkeys? Or maybe ill buy a russian one... hmm or maybe chinese startcraft fits me better.
Hotkeys aren't the same everywhere.
You're the same guy who got caught point swapping with multiple accounts to get to A- on Iccup right? You didn't think that was wrong too. Your views are different than mine apparently.
On March 27 2009 20:17 WhuazGoodNjaggah wrote:
i would own my clanmate hard if i turned mh on, but when i change medic key from e to a i wont suddenly win more vs him, the only thing changed is, that i wont miss my medics in a fight that often. i could also change the version to english everytime i play a TvZ, then the medic key would be changed too. wouldnt that be an amazing way to play the game? especially because it makes it impossible for me to play random, what if i suddenly have to play TvZ?
An advantage, even if slight, is cheating. There is no degree. If you copy half an answer or the whole test from the person sitting next to you, you're cheating. I don't care if this gives you a +1 APM advantage and maphack allows you to see everything. It's an advantage you wouldn't have had in normal gameplay, that was added via external means and wasn't given to your opponent. While different countries have different hotkey layouts, there are tradeoffs. The Chinese version might have stim on the P key instead. If you find one that fits your style, fine, use it. What hotkey changing does it lets you set all the keys to positions you're comfortable with. I don't have a problem with this if it was available to everyone and built into StarCraft, but it's not. Deal with it.
Stop trying to rationalize why you cheat. If you want to do it, do it, but don't be a pussy about it. The OP at least admitted he didn't care if this was cheating.
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I guess it serves it's purposes as long as you play casually. But as soon as you start playing Iccup or some tournaments, it's not just unfair but forbidden.
There's no comparison with remapping all your desired keys to places easier for you hand to reach and having an apm live meter. And let's not be pedantic, this isn't a guide for cheating. Maybe some people actually enjoy playing bgh or fastest and they'd rather remapp some hotkeys to match hand speed.
To be honest, I find it interesting, but I wouldn't use it because I'm too accustomed to standard hotkeys. And I also wouldn't play you or anyone using it. Just keep this at the stage of something interesting and purely recreational and perhaps add a disclaimer to your little guide telling people not to use it on Iccup.
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its not cheating:
- bw language hotkeys are different
- keyboard layouts are different
- people have different hand sizes
nothing of this should have an influence on the skill of a player.
so lets just play the game in the most natural, optimal way for everyone and see the real beauty of the competition (not getting forced to adapt a certain hotkey layout)
thx for the guide.
i cannot start those programs....can someone upload a full doxstar mpq? 
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United States41931 Posts
Blizzard didn't deliberately try and rig all the different language versions so the hotkeys were equally intuitive on them all. It's not naturally balanced, some versions may be better than others. By allowing players to remap at will it'd remove that unfairness. That said, I'd only use it if it was built into the icc launcher so everyone had the option.
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On March 27 2009 23:56 r3dox wrote:its not cheating: - bw language hotkeys are different - keyboard layouts are different - people have different hand sizes nothing of this should have an influence on the skill of a player. so lets just play the game in the most natural, optimal way for everyone and see the real beauty of the competition (not getting forced to adapt a certain hotkey layout) thx for the guide, can someone upload a full doxstar mpq?
Maybe it's just me, but a competition usually provides equal chances to the competitors. As long as both players have the ability to remapp hotkeys, I've got nothing against it. But that doesn't apply on on-line ladders.
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On March 27 2009 22:47 WhuazGoodNjaggah wrote:
if you had half a brain you would put that statement into relation.
If I had half a brain I would be able to read your posts. Or, I would be dead. Put statement into relation? What does that mean? Does it mean to let you off the hook and just accept the point behind the rherotic?
i would own my clanmate hard if i turned mh on, but when i change medic key from e to a i wont suddenly win more vs him,
So? If I used mineralhack vs Bisu I would own him hard. But if I used just maphack I wouldn't suddenly win more vs him. I fail to get the point.
You made two analogies and they both failed.
the only thing changed is, that i wont miss my medics in a fight that often.
And that isn't an advantage?
i could also change the version to english everytime i play a TvZ, then the medic key would be changed too.
Everytime you play an offline tournament you are forced to play with the English version. Asking for a german version is not allowed. You have to play with the English version. Asking to be allowed to use half the hotkeys from the English version and half those of the german one also isn't allowed. Iccup doesn't ban non-English versions. You really want them to go that far to fix Blizzard's mistake?
[wouldnt that be an amazing way to play the game? especially because it makes it impossible for me to play random, what if i suddenly have to play TvZ?
What?
yes and we as community make the rules.
This is incorrect. And if the community made the rules theres a clear consensus that remapping shortcuts is cheating.
its not like different tires are banned in cycling,
Yes, stuff is banned in cycling. Either on the road or on the track, there are clear requirements for the bikes.
its not different skate sizes which are banned in icehockey its not different shoecolor thats banned in football.
Just because no equipment is banned in icehockey that doesn't mean nothing is banned in whatever sports and thus nothing ought to be banned in SC, when in fact it is and it clearly should be.
And yeah, there are places where brightly coloured shoes are banned in football.
ok, i underlined and bolded the shit you spit. you dont even know how much different it is, yet you dare to talk about it like you are wisdom itself.
That's because it's different for everyone. You have to get the muscle memory to use the shortcuts. If you learn it both ways equally, there is no difference. And clearly having to 1a2a3e4 because of medics is harder for everyone if one used the german version. So clearly it does make a difference to certain people. And I can only assume this since I didn't actually go and measure it. Idiot.
. its fucking ridiculous to ban such things which make no big difference...
Uuh, just a bit earlier you admitted that it did make a difference. Surely there is a difference. You can map probe key 'p' to 's'. That is a difference. That's why people map keys. If it made no difference, why bother?
especially if there IS already different things of that.
It's hard to ban certain language versions on iccup. And you can't pick your personal preference. You are just stuck with whatever each language version has. Using third party program or adjusting the game data to your personal preferecen to gain an advantage is clearly not fair and different from using different language versions.
we as community shouldnt cry about things like keycraft we should cry because of maphacks and queue hacks and multi select and multi command and drop warnings and shit like this.
What about replacing the DT cloacked bitmap sprites with the uncloacked ones?
why you say chaos launcher (actually its plugins) is TECHNICALLY not allowed? its against the rules = its cheating = dont fucking treat it different.
What? You think that remapping keys isn't cheating but you think chaos launcher plugins are? And you accuse me of hypocricy? WTF dude...
wow your really ignorant. as if the skill in bw relies in the hotkey setup.
Apparently it does because people remap their hotkeys.
no it does NOT give you an unfair advantage. you wont suddenly beat bisu because you have superior hotkeys.
I thought I already showed how poor this argument was and you just use it again vs some other person.
its unfair the other way arround, because f.e. in the german version you send medics with e instead of a and that fucking sucks to press 1a2a3e my medics often fall behind because of this.
Germans are forced to play the german version in WCG?
noone is forcing me to use german version?
Then how is it unfair?
in my country i can only buy either french or german version of starcraft.
Don't be a liar just to support your cheating. And even if this were true, there are other ways to get the English version besides buying it which are all perfectly legal. And even if you had to use remapping method to remap it exactly to the English version, you argue that setting it up any way you prefer the most is what should not be considered as cheating.
oh and plz all the whiners, dont play maps like bluestorm, because they are all made with 3rd party programs and therefor violate the EULA.
Blue Storm is in the iccup mappack.
On March 27 2009 23:56 r3dox wrote:
its not cheating:
- bw language hotkeys are different
So? It's still against the rules to edit the game data or use third person programs to get an advantage.
- keyboard layouts are different
There are rules for keyboards in WCG. And even if there weren't, you can't do exactly the same thing with different keyboard layouts. And even if you could, the rules still say hacking the game is cheating.
- people have different hand sizes
People also have different brains. Does that mean I am allowed to close this gap between me and other people using certain third party programs?
Plus, I don't see how hand sizes ever give someone an advantage in SC. And even if it did, how should it not be of influence?
so lets just play the game in the most natural,
What does this mean? The most natural way to play Sc?
optimal way for everyone
Why does this not include maphack?
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^ I wish people would stop posting like that. You have literally nothing of value to say to any of his points and yet insist on quoting each section and adding a one liner. You're making your shitty contrarian argument take up 10 times the amount of space it needs to for no reason. If all you have to contribute is LOL NO <insert equally bad counter analogy> you should at least to do it as succinctly as possible instead of such a ridiculous format that only serves to isolate how bad every point you made actually is.
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On March 27 2009 23:51 Scooge wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2009 23:03 StylishVODs wrote:
I dont see how this can be considered cheating.
If i want to use other hotkeys its ok for me to buy the german starcraft cd and play with those hotkeys? Or maybe ill buy a russian one... hmm or maybe chinese startcraft fits me better.
Hotkeys aren't the same everywhere. You're the same guy who got caught point swapping with multiple accounts to get to A- on Iccup right? You didn't think that was wrong too. Your views are different than mine apparently.
Seriously?
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floor exercise, thanks for the ad hominem. What can I say in my defense?
I think that fighting the arguments made in support of certain forms of cheating is a pretty good idea. Especially is they are bad. Now you can say the ones that were made are too bad to even require refutation, especially if they take up a lot of space, and maybe that's a fair point. But please give me the benefit of the doubt in my naiveness that all arguments in support of cheating should be fought.
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I really don't care what you say just don't make me wear out my mousewheel trying to scroll past it
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the only decent claim in this thread for the legality of keybinding is that non-english configs can be at a disadvantage in some cases.
this almost sounds like a fair enough reason to allow rebinding, until upon closer examination you aren't rebinding in the interest of fairness at all, you are doing it purely for an advantage.
rebinding to the best, most comfortable and efficient bindings you can find is not in the interest of fairness no matter how you try to paint X foreign binding as unfair. if you were rebinding your entire control scheme to match the english you might have a case, however you aren't and you don't.
stop cheating.
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It's cheating, but no more than having a better mouse, keyboard or monitor than me. I don't mind if my opponents use this, but hopefully they have the smarts to be GM since my setup is about as ghetto as it gets. I don't want someone who wins because they have better controls than me bragging.
C h e f
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Just out of curiosity, seeing as someone mentioned that there are diffrent versions of starcraft(german, french etc), I assume the hotkey mapping would be diffrent.
In proleague, do progamers use the english version (and it's hotkey-mapping), or are they using a korean version of starcraft with it's respective hotkey-mapping.
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I can't deny that it is advantageous to choose your hotkeys if your opponent doesn't have the choice. For example putting spider mines and siege mode on the same key means there's a lot less chance of misclicking when you are pushing. Putting Patrol closer to the keys you use to control units, like near 1-5, makes vulture harass easier. There are clear advantages to rebinding your keys.
My point is, as a community we've made bnet lag a thing of the past (for the most part) we've added all sorts of features to the game that blizzard has tried to copy and hasn't even done as good a job. By we I mean the clever few who make these programs and whatnot, not me.
So why can't we bring SC further out of the dark ages and make rebinding keys acceptable and easy to do practice for every player? How can we interpret the restriction on key rebinding as some sort of intentional aspect of the game instead of just an oversight or limitation of the game when it was designed.
It's by and large a matter of convenience. We have already added tons of convenient features that don't have a negative impact on the game and I think keybinding is one of those. I don't believe trying to maintain the purity of the game is a legitimate argument against it since we all play with crazy plugins and addons already.
And if you think people keybinding have an unfair advantage over you, that's more reason to make it publically accepted so that you too can benefit from having your own keys
Pretty much every game in the entire world lets you rebind keys, we have the ability to bring that level of functionality to BW and people would rather call it cheating?
And for the record I have burrow set to E, and I play on iccup like that! I am a filthy degenerate cheater
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IMO the biggest reason it's considered cheating is due to the fact that it isn't wide spread.
Honestly, I'd remap hotkeys if it were widely used.
/agree with floor excercise's last post.
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IN B4 SHITSTORM - oh wait, no I'm not.
Remapping hotkeys is necessarily cheating but it's not entirely honest, either - only because not everyone knows about it.
But my opinion, honestly, is if you're complaining about pushing 'o' for siege QQ more - you can get used to it, it's part of the mechanical skill of playing Starcraft.
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EPT
