EPT63% winrate is ridiculous. . .I'm sure Blizzard could not balance the game this much, a game is still human-made after all. They probably had no idea Terrans would start using this strategy with mech 10 years later
Mech TvZ, by the Numbers - Page 3
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
63% winrate is ridiculous. . .I'm sure Blizzard could not balance the game this much, a game is still human-made after all. They probably had no idea Terrans would start using this strategy with mech 10 years later | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 26 2009 00:58 AzureEye wrote: Mech is incredibly overpowered as of now. Because mech units and mech army were too powerful, traditional Zerg response would be to mass and abuse Terran mobility. In order to mass, Z needs a great econ early game because thats when it is important for Zerg. By relying on the slow speed of metal army, Zerg could over expand and take lots of bases, acquiring enough gas to spill out mutas, lurkers, ultras, you name it. Then they could simply macro+mass, flank, and tear apart metal army. After the invention of dropship into early mech play (via Fantasy), Zerg could not over expand because Terran units were everywhere. Zerg could not use traditional muta counter to goliaths because of valkirye support. (Valks pull back when they see scourges, goliaths kill those, valkirye goes back to engaging mutas with goliaths) 63% winrate is ridiculous. . .I'm sure Blizzard could not balance the game this much, a game is still human-made after all. They probably had no idea Terrans would start using this strategy with mech 10 years later its not as simple as that. I'm pretty sure its not imbalanced, zergs just need some time to adjust. People thought ZvP was imbalanced for many years. | ||
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17722 Posts
On January 25 2009 22:27 NahLGaE wrote: nice writeup. i was just complaining today about how often mech is being used these days and not because im a zerg whiner saying its too easy because i dont think its any easier just a different style but more because tvz was my fav matchup to watch when the classic bionic with tank and vessel support vs lings lurks defiler and later ultra was a really fun and beautiful thing to watch in the best cases. now its getting rarer to see it and see it done well =\ on a side note, its pretty interesting and surprising (or sad) that hwasin is 3-5 and fbh 4-4 going bionic. hwasin used to be known for his zerg sniping skills with his great timing and control and fbh was supposed to be good at tvz wasnt he? ;o and why is savior listed as 2-1 (+1) mech, 1-2 (-1) bionic, and then 6-1 (0) overal zvt? O_o In hwasin vs hoejja the commentators said they asked hwasin what he thought about mech before the games and Hwasin said he tried it in his practice games and he thought it was really good but when he started to use bionic again he said he noticed that his timing got a lot worse because of practicing only mech against zerg. | ||
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heyitsme
153 Posts
''Starcraftology'' | ||
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sh02hp0869
Sweden460 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 26 2009 00:58 AzureEye wrote: Mech is incredibly overpowered as of now. Because mech units and mech army were too powerful, traditional Zerg response would be to mass and abuse Terran mobility. In order to mass, Z needs a great econ early game because thats when it is important for Zerg. By relying on the slow speed of metal army, Zerg could over expand and take lots of bases, acquiring enough gas to spill out mutas, lurkers, ultras, you name it. Then they could simply macro+mass, flank, and tear apart metal army. After the invention of dropship into early mech play (via Fantasy), Zerg could not over expand because Terran units were everywhere. Zerg could not use traditional muta counter to goliaths because of valkirye support. (Valks pull back when they see scourges, goliaths kill those, valkirye goes back to engaging mutas with goliaths) 63% winrate is ridiculous. . .I'm sure Blizzard could not balance the game this much, a game is still human-made after all. They probably had no idea Terrans would start using this strategy with mech 10 years later[/QUOTE] its not as simple as that. I'm pretty sure its not imbalanced, zergs just need some time to adjust. People thought ZvP was imbalanced for many years. It is simpel as that. It has gone a long time now and the winrate is wat to high. One problem lies that T have a lot easier time adjust to new maps v Z because of the Race abilities. It is possible to make the maps for zv mech or bio i belive, but it would probleby hurt the other mu and probleby it would limit the creativity of the maps. Yes it is tru that P stuggled vZ, but so did Z v T at the same level. I have watch the PL for 5 yers and T have always have a better record v Z but it wasent unbalaced. I think i woulg give it a bit more time to decide but if it countinous the game really need a patch. IMO it would be easier to rebalace the T and make the maps then more T favored v Z. The option to go mech should always be possible but at a higher risk. | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On January 26 2009 01:30 sung_moon wrote: amazing OP but i wouldnt put FBH as a mech user He just happened to be the 10th-ranked Terran in terms of mech game differential. Also, I think it's interesting to see how bio giants are faring in this time of metal TvZ - you'll notice that many of the top Terran players have mediocre bio records but have done well with mech (Fantasy, Hwasin, FBH). | ||
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MoeMoeKyun
United States215 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
 . Thanks for having Post-fantasy era.. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 26 2009 00:58 AzureEye wrote: Remember, T>Z has been commonplace for the last year with or without mech. And have you forgotten this game already?Mech is incredibly overpowered as of now. Because mech units and mech army were too powerful, traditional Zerg response would be to mass and abuse Terran mobility. In order to mass, Z needs a great econ early game because thats when it is important for Zerg. By relying on the slow speed of metal army, Zerg could over expand and take lots of bases, acquiring enough gas to spill out mutas, lurkers, ultras, you name it. Then they could simply macro+mass, flank, and tear apart metal army. After the invention of dropship into early mech play (via Fantasy), Zerg could not over expand because Terran units were everywhere. Zerg could not use traditional muta counter to goliaths because of valkirye support. (Valks pull back when they see scourges, goliaths kill those, valkirye goes back to engaging mutas with goliaths) 63% winrate is ridiculous. . .I'm sure Blizzard could not balance the game this much, a game is still human-made after all. They probably had no idea Terrans would start using this strategy with mech 10 years later 95% of all mech builds are not the fantasy build and most use run-bys to score easy wins. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36369 Posts
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Fox
United States408 Posts
On January 26 2009 01:12 AnOth3rDAy wrote: its not as simple as that. I'm pretty sure its not imbalanced, zergs just need some time to adjust. People thought ZvP was imbalanced for many years. maps played a huge part in those situations. lurkers on cliffs was a huge reason why toss always had issues with zerg. if you go back to those maps i bet zergs start to do better again. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
You'll notice bio is still the leading strategy used by a 2-1 ratio. There's a reason for that, and it's not just because progamers are stubborn. Bio is still probably the most sound and stable strategy in this matchup, but because Zergs now have to guard against two very different kinds of play, the game becomes very different. If someone was to catalog the statistics on all-in proxies, you'd probably find a very high win percentage when that is employed. However, that doesn't mean proxies are unfair and unstoppable. It just works when used in a small percentage of game in order to surprise the opponent. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
also you have to look at the games themselves. yes terrans are winning, alot, with mech. but look at how its happening. well over half the time the zergs let a simple vulture runby kill a bunch of drones and lings, force zerg to make extra units and delay mining time which messes up tech timing, leaving terran in a massively superior position. one big big benefit of mech is that its hard to throw away a lead because your units are so strong when you're able to get alot of them, so these games end up looking like mech is ridiculously overpowered because theres absolutely nothing zerg can do.. but really the game was lost the moment they let 3 speed vults in their base. some people will argue that the fact that early vulture play has been so effective shows that its not so much the zergs fault but just an inherently really strong tactic. thats not the case though, again if you just watch the games the zergs are flat out not responding well. it does not take a genius to know if terran is teching and if they are you need do nothing more than make a handful of hydras and wall your nat as best as possible (with buildings you're gonna need anyway, and maybe a cheap evolution chamber) and you're gonna be prepared for just about any common fac first build. yet zergs refuse to do this, and it accounts for a massive part of those stats that seem so imbalanced. but even past that most zergs are not properly dealing with mech. mech is very powerful, but it has one massive weakness, nonexistant mobility. so what do zergs do? a large fraction of the time.. they pump ground units off 3-4 bases and go to hive. this is the worst possible thing you can do for a number of reasons. first off terrans only map control until they have a massive army is going to be vultures, mines rape the piss out of hydra ling because hydras dont respond very quickly to mines and if one mine blows up it can take out an entire group of the weak units. also the zergs generally dont mass expand, theyre used to the unit efficiency they have vs bio, with lurkers and defilers. you are not going to win vs mechanic 4 base vs 3 because the units are so much powerful. however this is not an imbalance, it just requires a different response. again the units are extremely powerful, but immobile. mech terran is not going to be running around the map and killing expos all over, they have to keep their army in one bigass slow moving blob. so the zerg is free to expo everywhere to get the resources they need to compete with more efficient units, but they're still stuck in the vs bio mindset, to some degree or another. ggplay vs flash posted earlier here was an excellent demonstration of how to deal with mech, granted it was before the 'mech revolution' but he abused the build quite well. going mass ground unit also takes away alot of the threat of a counter (and counters are significantly more effective than usual, again because the mech army needs to stay together for max effectiveness, and is not very mobile). drops are an option but they are not nearly as effective as mutas, and they are much more risky because you're 99% gonna lose the units, with mutas you need only fly back out as soon as they respond. mech is not a bad strategy, but it is not very good either. in the end its going to end up like 2 base reaver->carrier pvt, a gimmicky strategy that works well when it catches your opponent off guard and gets some play time on maps that are bad for straight up tvz, but otherwise drops off the face of the earth once z's start playing intelligently vs it. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
the best way to deal with it is to building wall off vulture runbys then go muta with carapace grades, mass expo and mass muta (terran cant put any pressure at all on you besides the vultures early so you're free to power and expo with every mineral not put into mutas. a handful of hydras helps vs the vultures early on as well, and theyre necessary on maps like desti where the nat cant be completely walled. if terran tries to move out at all the moment hes out of his natural you counter his main with all your mutas, pull out the moment his goliaths get back, if he doesnt come back then you destroy his main and keep pumping mutas/sunken everywhere/keep expoing and running away from his army until you have enough mutas to kill it. if terran doesnt get aggressive you should start mixing in hydra when you're running 4-5 full bases and have 3+ groups of mutas, but dont cut muta production entirely. its also possible to go hive tech but just taking the entire map and mass hydra muta hardcore seems the most effective. if they try to just keep turtling and taking expos you probably will have to go hive to break them, but they have to invest so much in turret defense and theyre so immobile that theyre never gonna be able to touch your army size unless you engage in a bad position (there is no bad position to engage in on medusa, but be careful of the bridges n stuff on desti) and never ever ever attack him, ever. you'll only waste units (there are situations where you can do an early timing break, like jaedong vs flash on desti, but on the whole you want to avoid being put into an allin situation like that as its a far lower % than playing the way i suggested). you wait for him to come to you, and even then you delay as long as possible. | ||
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axel
France385 Posts
What is not often said is the fact that people think fantasy re-invented mech whereas : 1) it was said to be OOV coaching 2) Flash was the first , for about something like 1 year to play pure mech vs zergs. If u remember he started with some builds with command first then 2 fact starport gols vessels irradiate ( especially on maps like katrina on longinus). After this i became very fan of this way of playing tvz and it helped me to understand fastly how to play and how awesomely good is "fantasy" build. On a side note , i have noticed some variations recently with 1 fact followed by a second with more vulture to harrass /sneak into goliaths turets and mass facts. I dont like it and i prefer original " fantasy build". About counters , from what i noticed from my litle mech experience ; The drop solution is good thing , not a stupîd big all in drop , but just even the threaten of the drop will make terran spending money into turets , delay him . The worst strats for zerg is playing a 3 gas hive for having crap hydra / lurk with crap defilers that most of the time will even not survive to massive tank +2+3 siege to be able to swarm or plague. The best zergs i encoutered were very patient and smart zerg , keeping good eco, expanding and making tons of hydra-ling with sometimes a 3 rd muta force. It makes the game a bit like pvt but z is p and somehow recalls are drops , and if zerg have good macro he can pretty fastly reach 200/200 very fastly with 50/50 hydra ling ratio. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
I am still curious why Zergs are having so much trouble with this build even after 4 months of it being quite standard...maybe my faith in the pros' ability to adapt to new strategies is unwarranted? | ||
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Love.Zelduck
United States170 Posts
foreigners ftw! | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On January 26 2009 15:42 jwd241224 wrote: Thanks for your posts IdrA, they're very informative. I agree that stats don't tell the whole story and, as someone who has watched a majority of these mech TvZ games, I also agree that often Zergs make really silly mistakes which lead to wins that don't necessarily reflect the long-term viability of the build (for example GGPlay vs. Iris? on medusa where the vults got behind the minerals...that was sad). I am still curious why Zergs are having so much trouble with this build even after 4 months of it being quite standard...maybe my faith in the pros' ability to adapt to new strategies is unwarranted? to be honest i dont know the day after light went 1 fac speedvult cc vs effort every zerg on our b team took 10 minutes to figure out good walls at every spot and medusa, and that shit hasnt worked vs them ever since. why proleague z's havent done the same... no clue. on other maps its a bit more understandable though, medusa you can block with a hatch a sunk a hydra den and an evo, all of which you're gonna need soon anyway except maybe the evo. elsewhere it can be more costly to do a total block, so they try to cut it close and just havent found a good balance yet. | ||
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