On December 03 2008 02:11 Ideas wrote:I think this season in PL there are several up-and-coming Z players in the top charts who might be able to "succeed" Jaedong. As much as I love JD and hate to admit it, he is no longer the un-disputed "best Zerg player in the world" (and certainly no longer the best player overall :\ ).
July, Luxury, Yarnc and GGplay all are still very good players (although lacking skill in 1 MU or another). but I don't feel like any of them will be become "the one."
If you look at some Z players in PL, a few stand out to me as possible successors:
Calm - Calm doesn't really have a weak MU, but none of his MU's are quite S-class yet. He has had a couple wins in PL with speedlings (most notable vs ForGG, but I think that was just an aggressive 2 hatch muta type build), but he can still play a very good game of SC (see his series vs Lomo in the GSL). Most of his wins in PL have been vs clearly lesser opponents, and a lot of his wins vs better players have been somewhat all-in strats (such as vs Stork). His ZvP is probably his most questionable MU, but with Kal to practice with and July to teach him I think he can be very good in that MU as well. I feel that he is probably not that likely to become truly dominant, but I really like him any way
RorO - Lately Roro hasn't been doing too good, and maybe he was just a fluke. But he has some SERIOUS ZvZ, beating Calm and July in the same night after beating Jaedong the night before.
EffOrt- The "neo-savior." Has been playing fucking amazing these last few months. He is arguably the best player on his team right now and one of 2 Zergs left in the GSL. I think he actually would of broken out earlier in the Incruit OSL if he didn't have to play Flash (with 1 game on plasma :O ) in the Ro36. I think that the GSL might just be his ticket to stardom.
type-b- Dude showed some seriously sick ZvT in the last few months. His ZvP and ZvZ aren't too good though, but he did make it into the Ro16 in the MSL and went to the 3rd game vs Yarnc who is currently one of if not arguably the best ZvZs in the world.
ZerO- Current #2 player in PL and he's on a 6 game winning-steak, including a KTF all-kill (wins over Lux and Flash in 1 night). He's qualified for at least survivor the last 3 MSLs, but has failed each time. Maybe he has some sort of nerves or has drastically improved his play, but he played absolutely horrible in the Clubday MSL. Things are looking up for him though with his success in PL.
Thezerg- my favorite from this list, he bursted onto the scene with his total trashing of Hwasin and Rumble in the Incruit OSL, and came SUPER close to advancing out of his group ( I blame Plasma, which btw, thezerg is responsible for 2 of the 3 total Z wins (or only 1 if you don't count his win on it in the MBC-OGN grudge match thing)). I was sure he was going to instantly become one of the best players on his team in PL, but with 2 loses (1 to boxer's valk build and 1 to Zero) and Saint starting to get wins, MBC benched him. He is now on SKTT1(and bound to play A WHOLE LOT), and if he manages to avoid the SKT Zerg curse, I believe he can still become something great.
Then there are a few total newbies that have only played like 1 or 2 games that show some promise, but I won't go as far to consider them totally awesome yet (such as by.hero and Modesty
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats
And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along.
Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly.
An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT.
However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place.
Seen the stats. And more importantly, I have seen the games and I still say...
On December 02 2008 12:51 G5 wrote: z's are doing fine imo
Up and coming proleague players have been all over the place (Pure, Sea, Leta, Midas, the list goes on and on). The real test of mettle is individual leagues, where game play changes will manifest themselves.
To be honest though, Zergs will be fine in the upcoming seasons, although I disagree that maps are completely blameless for dearth of winning zergs.
Blame Zerg for their predictable 3 hatch into spire tech - toss counter with perfect archon push(nowadays with even more predictable 5 hatch hydra afterwards). Blame Zerg for being too stubborn for not learning to use queens.
It seems all Korean zergs are just too conservative do we have to wait for a foreigner to come up with a new playstyle?
On December 04 2008 00:55 LastWish wrote: Blame Zerg for their predictable 3 hatch into spire tech - toss counter with perfect archon push(nowadays with even more predictable 5 hatch hydra afterwards). Blame Zerg for being too stubborn for not learning to use queens.
It seems all Korean zergs are just too conservative do we have to wait for a foreigner to come up with a new playstyle?
That's like saying, oh toss are so predictible with their forge FE.
Zergs 3hatch because its the safest opening you can do and it gives you a chance to get into midgame at least even almost every time.. That's not the problem.
On December 04 2008 00:55 LastWish wrote: Blame Zerg for their predictable 3 hatch into spire tech - toss counter with perfect archon push(nowadays with even more predictable 5 hatch hydra afterwards). Blame Zerg for being too stubborn for not learning to use queens.
It seems all Korean zergs are just too conservative do we have to wait for a foreigner to come up with a new playstyle?
Protoss knows that if they survive vs JulyZerg early game he will go sauron every time and yet they still get raped ...
... blame protoss for not learning to use scouts ...
Does anyone know what the GOMtv player stats show and how they're specifically calculated? I remember in the Jaedong vs Tempest series, Jaedong scoring high 9's across the board except on macro. I think it'd be interesting to know how our young zerg players rank in each score. It's not the best thing for predicting how they'll do in the longrun (see:Jaedong vs Tempest), but knowing so and so has a micro rating of 9.5 can certainly help.
Yes zergs are doing bad, especially in individual leagues... but why are they doing okay in proleague?
It's simple: it's because of the maps. In proleague, the coaching staff picks the best maps possible for every players. In individual leagues you don't get to pick the maps that you play on, therefore zergs are forced to play on every map and when the map pool overall is bad for zerg then more zerg players lose.
I think individual leagues should have a bigger map pool, and the players should be able to veto a map.
Metagame wise, ppl complain that zergs nowadays are too agressive and the macro zerg needs to be reinvented... IMO Zerg can't reinvent itself macro-wise, like sum1 else said 3 hatch opening is at the limit of safe and macro advantage. Instead I think that zerg should keep up with the agressive openings, and find safe ways to transition them into a macro oriented mid/late-game.
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats
And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along.
Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly.
An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT.
However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place.
Very interesting... Savior suffers from early game aggression by Terran (Arena MSL, ClubDay MSL, Bacchus OSL) but lately he looked very strong against any type of terran play like mech builds. But if you look at his last game versus FBH, it was kind of a Jaedong play although savior doesn't have his control. Is it the reason why savior (even when he's slumping) is playing descent starcraft vs a macro player like FlaSh who is allowing him to build up, whereas FlaSh is getting destroyed in early game by Jaedong ??
On December 03 2008 10:36 TheTyranid wrote: Stats for all individual leagues during the fall season: TvZ: 60-39 (60.6 %) ZvP: 36-54 (40 %)
In total Zerg are 75-104 (41.9 %)
Didn't include PL because it is very balanced and is out of question.
I think Zerg are just in a transitional phase. A dominating player is dying off and the throne has become vacated. A similar situation happened after Bisu beat Savior. It was evident that Savior would probably not win either of the summer leagues and there wasn't another really strong Zerg around besides GGPlay. The Daum ODT was absolutely horrible for zerg resuliting in only 3 qualifying for Daum OSL out of dozens. Daum ODT had a weird format with a ro48 consisting of 1v1 bo3 sets. I remember the atrocious ZvPers Yarnc and Jaedong matched up against Free and Much and just going "FUCK" inside my mind. And sure enough both of them lost. Luckily we had GGPlay pulling out a clutch win right before Jaedong went on the rise. Same goes for July. He came back out of nowhere and bent every single fucking Protoss in half. It's too bad we didn't have a July/GGPlay this season. Now that I think about it, I can't see a Zerg winning a starleague in spring. Jaedong is slumping and will probably not win anything for a while. The twins suck and will never win any major titles. GGPlay and Savior sure as fuck aren't going to win anything anymore. They will never return to the top Zerg echelon. Calm and Zero are just on a PL streak, I can't see them winning leagues yet. Zerg's best hopes lie with a slumping, brain dead Jaedong. But, as they say, hope dies last.
FYI - The math is slightly off.
Total games = 189 Zerg Victories = 39 + 36 = 75 Winning % = 75/189 = .3968 = 39.68%
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats
And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along.
Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly.
An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT.
However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place.
Very interesting... Savior suffers from early game aggression by Terran (Arena MSL, ClubDay MSL, Bacchus OSL) but lately he looked very strong against any type of terran play like mech builds. But if you look at his last game versus FBH, it was kind of a Jaedong play although savior doesn't have his control. Is it the reason why savior (even when he's slumping) is playing descent starcraft vs a macro player like FlaSh who is allowing him to build up, whereas FlaSh is getting destroyed in early game by Jaedong ??
in the GSL Effort going 2-hatch muta on medusa (which is IMO pretty fucking balanced ZvP), then deciding best's attack on chupung wasn't coming after he sniped the shuttle(i'm pretty sure that's what happened at least). THEN effort fucking knew light was doing mech build on medusa YET kept his lings attacking the motherfucking temples like an idiot and let light's vultures totally wreck his eco. Effort still played well, but just had some fucking horrible decisons T_T
Then there's fucking Jaedong who dealed with FBH's bunker-rush like a damn D- player :\
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats
And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along.
Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly.
An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT.
However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place.
Very interesting... Savior suffers from early game aggression by Terran (Arena MSL, ClubDay MSL, Bacchus OSL) but lately he looked very strong against any type of terran play like mech builds. But if you look at his last game versus FBH, it was kind of a Jaedong play although savior doesn't have his control. Is it the reason why savior (even when he's slumping) is playing descent starcraft vs a macro player like FlaSh who is allowing him to build up, whereas FlaSh is getting destroyed in early game by Jaedong ??
Flash might beat Jaedong when he stops 14ccing
flash doesn't try to 14 cc every game anymore, only in TvT. He tried to 14 cc without scouting against jaedong on harmony in proleague though. against a 9 pool. didn't work out so hot for him.
On December 04 2008 00:55 LastWish wrote: Blame Zerg for their predictable 3 hatch into spire tech - toss counter with perfect archon push(nowadays with even more predictable 5 hatch hydra afterwards). Blame Zerg for being too stubborn for not learning to use queens.
It seems all Korean zergs are just too conservative do we have to wait for a foreigner to come up with a new playstyle?
That's like saying, oh toss are so predictible with their forge FE.
Zergs 3hatch because its the safest opening you can do and it gives you a chance to get into midgame at least even almost every time.. That's not the problem.
Toss are to predictible with their FE, I go 2 gate and im called a cheeser its quite amazing .....
EPT
Calm - Calm doesn't really have a weak MU, but none of his MU's are quite S-class yet. He has had a couple wins in PL with speedlings (most notable vs ForGG, but I think that was just an aggressive 2 hatch muta type build), but he can still play a very good game of SC (see his series vs Lomo in the GSL). Most of his wins in PL have been vs clearly lesser opponents, and a lot of his wins vs better players have been somewhat all-in strats (such as vs Stork). His ZvP is probably his most questionable MU, but with Kal to practice with and July to teach him I think he can be very good in that MU as well. I feel that he is probably not that likely to become truly dominant, but I really like him any way 
