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United States17042 Posts
On December 02 2008 12:28 mog87 wrote:
Calms been winning..making a shitload of lings and rushing is too good.
zerglings have always been imba xD.
More seriously, we can see that zerg is doing just fine in proleague, and that the maps (especially plasma) forced zergs to play like champions to eke out wins. Now, we are seeing zergs get wins on most of the proleague maps (zvp on neo requium...and raid assualt 2 come to mind), and the list for the MSL seems fairly balanced as well.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Well there is a bright side. Zergs DOMINATED the MSL prelims.
14 of the 24 qualified players are Zergs along with only 5 protoss and 5 terran.
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someone named the tyranid would a zerg fan I guess..slightly off topic I think the sisters of battle would beat sc marines pretty easily.
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On December 02 2008 09:31 Jovan wrote:
I've read several times that Terran is the hardest race to play. I'm not exactly a gosu level player, but is this true? If so, why? At first I found TvP to be hard, and TvZ to be easy but after playing for a while TvP is starting to become almost natural... TvT is just fucked.
Having said that, I'd rather put the blame on the players themselves rather than external factors.
zerg is the hardest to play imo. just knowing the timing when to build drones and how many and when to build units and what kind of units etc. at higher lvls i think zerg is by far the hardest to master (but i also think if you had a theoretical match btw the perfect players of each race, perfect as in really god like, perfect everything, can do infinite numbers of things at once, zerg would have a slight edge against the other two).
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On December 02 2008 12:33 TheTyranid wrote:
Well there is a bright side. Zergs DOMINATED the MSL prelims.
14 of the 24 qualified players are Zergs along with only 5 protoss and 5 terran.
That won't be the case after survivor (Byzantium!!!) :\
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On December 02 2008 09:27 Raithed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 09:09 29 fps wrote:On December 02 2008 09:01 Highways wrote:
I blame Terrans.
Got it too easy against Zerg. your quote says it all, but thats not true. the supposed "power imba" (T>Z, Z>P,P>T) doesnt really exist at the higher levels (or even at the lower levels). maybe they do have to work a little harder. but once it hits late game, its almost impossible to stop them. tvz. ultras and defilers. hard to stop with terran. zvp. archons and goons, or just many many archons. hard to stop for zerg. pvt. 3/3 200/200 army. hard to stop with toss. just some of my pennies. (two of them) and that "cycle" plays again. tvz. terran using metal > ultra/defilers. zvp. dark swarm > many many archons. i think what you want to say is reaver/archon(lol free vs jd) pvt. countering this, i admit, its hard, but if you have mass statis and harass = good to go or storm(jangbi vs nada).
except that ultra/defiler is a normal late game transition for zvt but going from mm into mech is not for tvz? ummmm, yea BC also rapes ultraling but it's not a part of the "cycle"
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I think so as well, I mean if players who used to kinda suck like Saint and Nal_Keke, effort, mensol_zero, thezerg are doing well..then you cant really say zergs are in trouble,
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P players are just superior and have had enough of this infestation nonsense.
We are here to clean up BW.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats 
And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along.
Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly.
An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT.
However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place.
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Well, most of Jaedong's matches go to the end game, especially versus 'toss.
Edit: I meant on Katrina.
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is it just me, or did anyone notice that as soon as zergs switched to 9 pool scourge into mutas into hydra/lurk from 12 hatch scourge into hydra into lurk they started doing a lot worse?
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You obviously haven't watched the 08 Winter MSL prelims.
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On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place.
I believe either Effort or Modesty are the chosen ones to bring zergs back into the game. I think their capacity for attention to detail and situation evaluation sense, added to some needed unit efficiency will put zerg back on the map. Which means terrans will have for the next cycle to input their dominance.
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i'm guessing it's because it encouraged protoss to go into a zealot/archon/ht army+dts midgame push which is just more resilient and less volatile than the corsair/reaver harass.
once zerg figure out the timing/army composition it will probably swing back in their favor
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Effort,Saint,Zero,Modesty ... i hope they will be very good zergs!
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On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote:
Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly.
So disagree.
Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush.
When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again?
Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu.
Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now.
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16951 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:21 RamenStyle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. I believe either Effort or Modesty are the chosen ones to bring zergs back into the game. I think their capacity for attention to detail and situation evaluation sense, added to some needed unit efficiency will put zerg back on the map. Which means terrans will have for the next cycle to input their dominance.
Definitely EffOrt. He has the timing sense to win games, as well as very, very solid mechanics and macro play. He also has the talent to do smart moves (though not always flashy...check out the way he brought his Lurkers in from behind to kill all of Jangbi's Dragoons as Jangbi was attacking his third) when necessary, as well as a strong, consistent style of play and always seems to know when to switch from Mutalisks to Lurkers (and vice versa) to get the most out of it.
I love watching his Mutalisk control as well. It's quite strong.
Also he looks like an absolute badass.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:20 Showtime! wrote:
You obviously haven't watched the 08 Winter MSL prelims.
08 Winter MSL prelims dont matter. It's like the weakest argument ever. First off it's prelims, not top level play. Secondly, of course zergs would get the most wins in it, because almost every great zerg had to make it through the prelims and almost all the great tosses, terrans were already qualified. 
Maps.
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Will the Toss golden age end when the zerg discover an effective way to deal with FE instead of "Overmacro" toss?
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EPT
