EPTBad time for zerg - Page 4
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4179 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Like with savior vs firebathero. Maybe I just don't know enough about how to play zerg, but watching the game he constantly had to produce units to not die, which meant he couldn't build any drones, and he got so set back his economy was way behind without any harass from fbh. Still, in his situation, even knowing what's coming I don't know what the hell I'd do differently... terran just continuously produced units which zerg can't do at the same time as building drones. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 02 2008 23:24 -orb- wrote: Lol watching ZvTs recently has made me feel bad for zergs. Like with savior vs firebathero. Maybe I just don't know enough about how to play zerg, but watching the game he constantly had to produce units to not die, which meant he couldn't build any drones, and he got so set back his economy was way behind without any harass from fbh. Still, in his situation, even knowing what's coming I don't know what the hell I'd do differently... terran just continuously produced units which zerg can't do at the same time as building drones. You mean Savior had this game but he flanked like a D+ zerg where anyone C- or better would have slaughtered FBH's army? On December 02 2008 23:21 M2 wrote: I also wonder what happened with those "easy" wins for zergs over protoss, there were times when protosses didnt know what will come upon them like mass zerglings break or timing 2 hatchery hydra break/3 hatcehry hydra breaks, or fast mutas coming just before the cannons are finished (from one or two hatcharies) or killing the corsairs with scourges and muta rapes the cannons just before archons come or fast lurkers breaks..things like that, and back then protosses were so scared of all that things that sometimes they were too defensive and zergs were just taking the wholo map. Back then somehow zergs were mentaly superior to the protosses and they were confident enough to do all this types of things knowing that whatever happen they have the momentum, nowadays seems to be the opposite, protosses just play their game trying different tricks/build here and there and zergs are so scared that they cannot keep up with the protoss so they are just trying to play in a way not to risk anything, which makes them too predictable IMO Those games stopped happening when the unoriginal map makers figured protoss should be able to fast expand no matter what. (zzzzz) | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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stenole
Norway869 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:34 SuperJongMan wrote: I never said Jaedong was a bad player, he has a style which is unable to be recreated by any other Zerg alive to the level that Jaedong has it perfected. And there in lies the problem. Jaedong was effective at winning games, and in doing so lead the Zerg race into an intense low-econ struggle against Terran and Protoss (which fails btw). While Jaedong finds success with these bloodthirsty builds, other Zergs aren't so lucky and get crushed by Terran macro. So disagree. Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush. When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again? Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu. Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now. Without a solid macro zerg to bring the swarm back into alignment with the macro revolution, instead of trying to revive the art of poor zerg, Zerg will continue to lose and lose and lose on these maps. Savior was moving in the right direction - towards a more management oriented style but still lived life right on the edge of the knife, which obviously is extremely difficult to replicate. Watch his ZvT's and notice the absolute precision timing he had with his defilers and whatnot, GGPlay was able to build upon this even further with his profound lategame skills (sadly he lacked any real substance in his midgame) and took Zerg back into the safe ground, making the sick timing of savior unnecessary. Then Jaedong succeeded GGPlay but with a high intensity aggressive style which slaughtered the wheels savior had set in motion months earlier, Luxury (aka Jaedong Mk II) didn't help this either. Zero and Calm are moving in the right direction (from what i've seen) and heres hoping they develop into great pioneers of the Zerg race. | ||
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Ideas
United States8178 Posts
July, Luxury, Yarnc and GGplay all are still very good players (although lacking skill in 1 MU or another). but I don't feel like any of them will be become "the one." If you look at some Z players in PL, a few stand out to me as possible successors:  Calm - Calm doesn't really have a weak MU, but none of his MU's are quite S-class yet. He has had a couple wins in PL with speedlings (most notable vs ForGG, but I think that was just an aggressive 2 hatch muta type build), but he can still play a very good game of SC (see his series vs Lomo in the GSL). Most of his wins in PL have been vs clearly lesser opponents, and a lot of his wins vs better players have been somewhat all-in strats (such as vs Stork). His ZvP is probably his most questionable MU, but with Kal to practice with and July to teach him I think he can be very good in that MU as well. I feel that he is probably not that likely to become truly dominant, but I really like him any way  RorO - Lately Roro hasn't been doing too good, and maybe he was just a fluke. But he has some SERIOUS ZvZ, beating Calm and July in the same night after beating Jaedong the night before.EffOrt- The "neo-savior." Has been playing fucking amazing these last few months. He is arguably the best player on his team right now and one of 2 Zergs left in the GSL. I think he actually would of broken out earlier in the Incruit OSL if he didn't have to play Flash (with 1 game on plasma :O ) in the Ro36. I think that the GSL might just be his ticket to stardom.type-b- Dude showed some seriously sick ZvT in the last few months. His ZvP and ZvZ aren't too good though, but he did make it into the Ro16 in the MSL and went to the 3rd game vs Yarnc who is currently one of if not arguably the best ZvZs in the world.ZerO- Current #2 player in PL and he's on a 6 game winning-steak, including a KTF all-kill (wins over Lux and Flash in 1 night). He's qualified for at least survivor the last 3 MSLs, but has failed each time. Maybe he has some sort of nerves or has drastically improved his play, but he played absolutely horrible in the Clubday MSL. Things are looking up for him though with his success in PL.Thezerg- my favorite from this list, he bursted onto the scene with his total trashing of Hwasin and Rumble in the Incruit OSL, and came SUPER close to advancing out of his group ( I blame Plasma, which btw, thezerg is responsible for 2 of the 3 total Z wins (or only 1 if you don't count his win on it in the MBC-OGN grudge match thing)). I was sure he was going to instantly become one of the best players on his team in PL, but with 2 loses (1 to boxer's valk build and 1 to Zero) and Saint starting to get wins, MBC benched him. He is now on SKTT1(and bound to play A WHOLE LOT), and if he manages to avoid the SKT Zerg curse, I believe he can still become something great.Then there are a few total newbies that have only played like 1 or 2 games that show some promise, but I won't go as far to consider them totally awesome yet (such as by.hero and Modesty). | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
dominated the offline prelimenaries it says it self that there is a lot of potential in the zerg race . | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 03 2008 01:36 Plexa wrote: I never said Jaedong was a bad player, he has a style which is unable to be recreated by any other Zerg alive to the level that Jaedong has it perfected. And there in lies the problem. Jaedong was effective at winning games, and in doing so lead the Zerg race into an intense low-econ struggle against Terran and Protoss (which fails btw). While Jaedong finds success with these bloodthirsty builds, other Zergs aren't so lucky and get crushed by Terran macro. Without a solid macro zerg to bring the swarm back into alignment with the macro revolution, instead of trying to revive the art of poor zerg, Zerg will continue to lose and lose and lose on these maps. Savior was moving in the right direction - towards a more management oriented style but still lived life right on the edge of the knife, which obviously is extremely difficult to replicate. Watch his ZvT's and notice the absolute precision timing he had with his defilers and whatnot, GGPlay was able to build upon this even further with his profound lategame skills (sadly he lacked any real substance in his midgame) and took Zerg back into the safe ground, making the sick timing of savior unnecessary. Then Jaedong succeeded GGPlay but with a high intensity aggressive style which slaughtered the wheels savior had set in motion months earlier, Luxury (aka Jaedong Mk II) didn't help this either. Zero and Calm are moving in the right direction (from what i've seen) and heres hoping they develop into great pioneers of the Zerg race. I don't know how his style (intense low-econ struggle ) fails vs Terrans for other players , when Luxury and Yarnc useing this style are haveing a walk in the park with terrans . His lings and 2 hat mutas still owns every terran recently . Isn't that why terrans started to do mech builds ? "While Jaedong finds success with these bloodthirsty builds, other Zergs aren't so lucky and get crushed by Terran macro." Just look at Yarnc and Luxury they are pretty much owning the shit out of terrans that trys to play a standard macro game . Two hat mutas are makeing terrans look like newbs , just look at Yarnc vs Sair . That Sair guy had the economy going had the defences rolling had the marines and medic massing and for what purpose ?? Yellow just harrased with mutas for a few minutes and then pressed 1a2a3a4a with his mutas and that guy never knew what hit him . I don't know other low - econ struggle builds that Jaedong is useing vs terrans or toss . If you can find me a low econ build he is using vs tosses or terrans please show it to me ? | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 02 2008 16:44 mog87 wrote: Sea doesnt suck in proleague buddy hes the "Prince of Proleague". Though the trying to humiliate him with battlecruisers is hilarious though, I don't think that they use it to hummiliate him . Maybe they see it as a viable strategy on big maps with lots of ressourses - Andromeda for example . Why not build 2 BC's for harrass when you have 3 - 4 basses going ? Who the fuck builds BC in middle game when zergs when still nothing has happend for humiliation ? Am i the only who thinks that 2 BC's can confuse a zerg and that you can do harras with them ? | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. this is why you need to write more FEs | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On December 02 2008 18:38 simcar wrote: # So true, JD is nothing compared to MJY. His dominance last only 2 seasons 1 osl and 1 msl. And he copied everything from MJY. Guys ok , Sea,Kal,Free,FBH are not mediocre players, but when JD lost to them a lot of ppl wrote in the threads like this : "OMG JD WTF ? stop losing to mediocre players." But i think Sea is becoming mediocre player(Was raped by Effort) etc.Watch his Matchlist. He is losing to much right now.How world's top progamer could lose bo3 series in WCG KOREA? 2 Silversky  SangHo,RorO etc They are WORLD top players too ? MB JD has bad days. But he is losing these days cause of his mechanics. His mechanics are broken.He should explore more tacktics IMO. THank you! ? He's one of the zerg progamers that popularized the "new" ZvP plays and the 2hatch ZvT builds. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
So that we can argue with him in his own threads, instead of taking over other people's threads. And so that his articles can go off and die with the other fe's (I think that the new home page might fix that though). Regardless, You can see ZvT working out well for, jaedong, lux, and his brother, yellow[arnc] as mentioned above in the thread. You can see ZvP working out well for July, Calm, and Effort. Remember that the title of the topic is about if zerg is dying out. From looking at the above list, I think that we can see that Zerg should be doing just fine - it's just that there isn't a zerg that is dominating right now. | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
TvZ: 60-39 (60.6 %) ZvP: 36-54 (40 %) In total Zerg are 75-104 (41.9 %) Didn't include PL because it is very balanced and is out of question. I think Zerg are just in a transitional phase. A dominating player is dying off and the throne has become vacated. A similar situation happened after Bisu beat Savior. It was evident that Savior would probably not win either of the summer leagues and there wasn't another really strong Zerg around besides GGPlay. The Daum ODT was absolutely horrible for zerg resuliting in only 3 qualifying for Daum OSL out of dozens. Daum ODT had a weird format with a ro48 consisting of 1v1 bo3 sets. I remember the atrocious ZvPers Yarnc and Jaedong matched up against Free and Much and just going "FUCK" inside my mind. And sure enough both of them lost. Luckily we had GGPlay pulling out a clutch win right before Jaedong went on the rise. Same goes for July. He came back out of nowhere and bent every single fucking Protoss in half. It's too bad we didn't have a July/GGPlay this season. Now that I think about it, I can't see a Zerg winning a starleague in spring. Jaedong is slumping and will probably not win anything for a while. The twins suck and will never win any major titles. GGPlay and Savior sure as fuck aren't going to win anything anymore. They will never return to the top Zerg echelon. Calm and Zero are just on a PL streak, I can't see them winning leagues yet. Zerg's best hopes lie with a slumping, brain dead Jaedong. But, as they say, hope dies last. | ||
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Tekin
2711 Posts
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Raz0r
United States287 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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JJH
Canada42 Posts
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JJH
Canada42 Posts
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