EPTi dont know, if iam posting in the right part of the forum (always confused about that), so i apologize in advance to the mods. I am not very good at sc and i dont follow the scene that much. I watch VODs of my favourite zerg progamers (Jaedong, Savior, Calm) and few other gamers. I dont know, but it seems to me, that zerg progamers are having really hard time lately. There is not many of them and even the few good ones dont win as much as they used to do. Why is that so?
Bad time for zerg
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b0ng
Czech Republic82 Posts
i dont know, if iam posting in the right part of the forum (always confused about that), so i apologize in advance to the mods. I am not very good at sc and i dont follow the scene that much. I watch VODs of my favourite zerg progamers (Jaedong, Savior, Calm) and few other gamers. I dont know, but it seems to me, that zerg progamers are having really hard time lately. There is not many of them and even the few good ones dont win as much as they used to do. Why is that so? | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Zerg does best on low mineral count bases and lots of gas everywhere. Don't really need choke except on the nat early on for FE. PS- Davior lol | ||
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excess1ve
United States359 Posts
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Ozarugold
2716 Posts
I actually have no idea why, but I still think Queens should be used more often. So under appreciated... | ||
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Quesadilla
United States1814 Posts
But anyways, starcraft always goes in cycles. It always has. As one race becomes dominant, another comes up with counter-strategies that work flawlessly against it and the cycle begins for that prospective race. Onward and onward... Take into account that the top Zerg players are probably the best starcraft players period. There aren't many because the difference between a good Zerg and a great Zerg is actually a ridiculously huge gap. Even Jaedong is losing now, wtf? | ||
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Jovan
Canada65 Posts
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Highways
Australia6100 Posts
Got it too easy against Zerg. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On December 02 2008 09:01 Highways wrote: I blame Terrans. Got it too easy against Zerg. do you also blame terrans for making these 1a2a3a a-move jokes? study july, low low econ, or yellow. well.. not yellow, he doesnt play anymore. | ||
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29 fps
United States5723 Posts
On December 02 2008 09:01 Highways wrote: I blame Terrans. Got it too easy against Zerg. your quote says it all, but thats not true. the supposed "power imba" (T>Z, Z>P,P>T) doesnt really exist at the higher levels (or even at the lower levels). maybe they do have to work a little harder. but once it hits late game, its almost impossible to stop them. tvz. ultras and defilers. hard to stop with terran. zvp. archons and goons, or just many many archons. hard to stop for zerg. pvt. 3/3 200/200 army. hard to stop with toss. just some of my pennies. (two of them) | ||
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On December 02 2008 09:09 29 fps wrote: your quote says it all, but thats not true. the supposed "power imba" (T>Z, Z>P,P>T) doesnt really exist at the higher levels (or even at the lower levels). maybe they do have to work a little harder. but once it hits late game, its almost impossible to stop them. tvz. ultras and defilers. hard to stop with terran. zvp. archons and goons, or just many many archons. hard to stop for zerg. pvt. 3/3 200/200 army. hard to stop with toss. just some of my pennies. (two of them) and that "cycle" plays again. tvz. terran using metal > ultra/defilers. zvp. dark swarm > many many archons. i think what you want to say is reaver/archon(lol free vs jd) pvt. countering this, i admit, its hard, but if you have mass statis and harass = good to go or storm(jangbi vs nada). | ||
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Jovan
Canada65 Posts
Having said that, I'd rather put the blame on the players themselves rather than external factors. | ||
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Kiryx
9 Posts
On December 02 2008 08:55 Quesadilla wrote: Queens... lol I'd really like to see progamers use these. The most underestimated spell caster in the whole game. Queens actually saved my game several times. Broodling thing is just amazing, yet way too expensive. And I mean wtf. Storm costs 75 and even if you suck at placing it well, you stil can kill like 4-5 units. | ||
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NonConGuy
United States416 Posts
On December 02 2008 09:09 29 fps wrote: zvp. archons and goons, or just many many archons. hard to stop for zerg. Endgame zvp is in favor of protoss IMO. just watching the jaedong vs free game with both of them maxed 200/200, reavers and archons just killed jaedong's massive amount of ultralisks, hydras, and zlings. But then again it was jaedong's fault for letting free expand so easily allowing free to get his units. | ||
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Xiberia
Sweden634 Posts
On December 02 2008 10:21 NonConGuy wrote: Endgame zvp is in favor of protoss IMO. just watching the jaedong vs free game with both of them maxed 200/200, reavers and archons just killed jaedong's massive amount of ultralisks, hydras, and zlings. But then again it was jaedong's fault for letting free expand so easily allowing free to get his units. Thing is that you're fucked anyways if you let a protoss grab enough gasses to support a large amount of archons and reavers. Zerg midgame is generally a bit weaker zvp so if endgame also favored protoss with equal economies, then zerg shouldn't be able to win any zvp's at all. | ||
SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
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NeoMesh
Canada49 Posts
On December 02 2008 09:33 Kiryx wrote: I'd really like to see progamers use these. The most underestimated spell caster in the whole game. Queens actually saved my game several times. Broodling thing is just amazing, yet way too expensive. And I mean wtf. Storm costs 75 and even if you suck at placing it well, you stil can kill like 4-5 units. I have to agree, broodling is amazing and the mana cost is deadly but the fact is queens can fly and are much more mobile than high templars.. HTs big disadvantage is how slow they move and once you bring them to the front of the line to cast storms within a certain range, they are quite vulnerable.. broodling has pretty good range and u can also cause tanks to splash damage eachother.. and you're right.. Pros don't use queens enough, they are a major factor in the game and I think parasite can be annoying as hell especially on big expensive units.. ensnare is also very useful and can help vs zealots | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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mog87
United States1586 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On December 02 2008 12:28 mog87 wrote: Calms been winning..making a shitload of lings and rushing is too good. zerglings have always been imba xD. More seriously, we can see that zerg is doing just fine in proleague, and that the maps (especially plasma) forced zergs to play like champions to eke out wins. Now, we are seeing zergs get wins on most of the proleague maps (zvp on neo requium...and raid assualt 2 come to mind), and the list for the MSL seems fairly balanced as well. | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
14 of the 24 qualified players are Zergs along with only 5 protoss and 5 terran. | ||
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mog87
United States1586 Posts
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NahLGaE
Korea (South)523 Posts
On December 02 2008 09:31 Jovan wrote: I've read several times that Terran is the hardest race to play. I'm not exactly a gosu level player, but is this true? If so, why? At first I found TvP to be hard, and TvZ to be easy but after playing for a while TvP is starting to become almost natural... TvT is just fucked. Having said that, I'd rather put the blame on the players themselves rather than external factors. zerg is the hardest to play imo. just knowing the timing when to build drones and how many and when to build units and what kind of units etc. at higher lvls i think zerg is by far the hardest to master (but i also think if you had a theoretical match btw the perfect players of each race, perfect as in really god like, perfect everything, can do infinite numbers of things at once, zerg would have a slight edge against the other two). | ||
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
On December 02 2008 12:33 TheTyranid wrote: Well there is a bright side. Zergs DOMINATED the MSL prelims. 14 of the 24 qualified players are Zergs along with only 5 protoss and 5 terran. That won't be the case after survivor (Byzantium!!!) :\ | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
On December 02 2008 09:27 Raithed wrote: and that "cycle" plays again. tvz. terran using metal > ultra/defilers. zvp. dark swarm > many many archons. i think what you want to say is reaver/archon(lol free vs jd) pvt. countering this, i admit, its hard, but if you have mass statis and harass = good to go or storm(jangbi vs nada). except that ultra/defiler is a normal late game transition for zvt but going from mm into mech is not for tvz? ummmm, yea BC also rapes ultraling but it's not a part of the "cycle" | ||
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G5
United States2881 Posts
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mog87
United States1586 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
We are here to clean up BW. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
 And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
Edit: I meant on Katrina. | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
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Showtime!
Canada2938 Posts
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RamenStyle
United States1929 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: + Show Spoiler + Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place.I believe either Effort or Modesty are the chosen ones to bring zergs back into the game. I think their capacity for attention to detail and situation evaluation sense, added to some needed unit efficiency will put zerg back on the map. Which means terrans will have for the next cycle to input their dominance. | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
once zerg figure out the timing/army composition it will probably swing back in their favor | ||
simcar
Korea (South)118 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. So disagree. Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush. When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again? Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu. Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now. | ||
Empyrean
16957 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:21 RamenStyle wrote: I believe either Effort or Modesty are the chosen ones to bring zergs back into the game. I think their capacity for attention to detail and situation evaluation sense, added to some needed unit efficiency will put zerg back on the map. Which means terrans will have for the next cycle to input their dominance. Definitely EffOrt. He has the timing sense to win games, as well as very, very solid mechanics and macro play. He also has the talent to do smart moves (though not always flashy...check out the way he brought his Lurkers in from behind to kill all of Jangbi's Dragoons as Jangbi was attacking his third) when necessary, as well as a strong, consistent style of play and always seems to know when to switch from Mutalisks to Lurkers (and vice versa) to get the most out of it. I love watching his Mutalisk control as well. It's quite strong. Also he looks like an absolute badass. | ||
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:20 Showtime! wrote: You obviously haven't watched the 08 Winter MSL prelims. 08 Winter MSL prelims dont matter. It's like the weakest argument ever. First off it's prelims, not top level play. Secondly, of course zergs would get the most wins in it, because almost every great zerg had to make it through the prelims and almost all the great tosses, terrans were already qualified.  Maps. | ||
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DeadlyNightShade
Chile43 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:56 DrStein wrote: Will the Toss golden age end when the zerg discover an effective way to deal with FE instead of "Overmacro" toss? 4pool, no way Forge FE beats it. Do it. Every time. until they 2 Gate again. | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats But they're making it into line ups, and past qualifiers, indicating an overall higher quality of Zerg players than previously. Their stats still might be bad but the fact that they're playing when coaches could just as easily chosen not to says that the coach at least has confidence that Zergs at least have chance at winning, better than a Protoss/Terran. It's true that in the most recent OSL/MSL there has been a dearth of Zergs but I think that trend will be reversed with the coming OSL/MSL. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. Jaedong's muta micro is a crutch for Jaedong and a handicap for all the other zergs out there (with the exception of Lux, possibly Kwanro). I don't know what to make of it in the grand scheme of Zerg performance, however. Could it have forced P's and T's to make their muta defense better, neutralizing a potent tool for the other zergs? It is an interesting observation that aggressive zergs had a resurgence in the last few months before dying out. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. I thought GGplay was going to bring back management zerg. His muta micro is so terrible (not that it's bad, I'm sure it isn't) he just chooses not to do anything with his muta. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he didn't run into Fantasy. Maybe not revolution in the sense of THE revolution, but definitely showing Zergs that you can manage a game for a win. I don't know who, but the next zerg will be unlike anything we've ever seen. Because if he isn't, he will be eliminated very quickly and fade from the forefront of Starcraft. My other completely bung zerg theory: + Show Spoiler + A year ago, the progamer Zergs that tested the maps were really, really, heads and shoulders better than the P/T competition when the balanced the maps. So when the maps were finally placed out on proleague, they were terrible for Zergs b/c they balanced it with a much stronger Zerg player pool in mind. =p Food for thought, and KeSPA better have better balancing procedures than this. But you never know with KeSPA. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On December 02 2008 14:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: 4pool, no way Forge FE beats it. Do it. Every time. until they 2 Gate again. You can defend 4 pool with forge FE. Look @ jangbi vs savior on athena from blizzcon, or sangho vs ... vs... huk someone on medusa. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
Nah, Effort is actually quite good, he can become a force. Or he can become 815. Also very talented, but like Effort, no individual(yes I know he was in Incruit "OSL" aka dual) leagues yet. Also watch out for HoeJJa (ChoJJa is his mentor  ). | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
2008 MBCGame Season 2 Survivor Tournament (Clubday survivor) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/154_MBC_Survivor_15th Maps used (3): Athena, Blue Storm, Byzantium TvZ: 13-5 (72.2%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 4-10 (28.6%) [ Games ] Mirrors: 8 TvT | 1 ZvZ | 0 PvP 2008 ClubDay MBCGame Starleague http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/155_ClubDay_2008_MSL Maps used (4): Athena 2, Byzantium 2, Destination, Medusa TvZ: 5-7 (41.7%) [ Games ] ZvP: 1-6 (14.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 20-9 (69%) [ Games ] Mirrors: 12 TvT | 3 ZvZ | 23 PvP Byzantium <3, zerg killer. 2008-2009 Shinhan Bank Proleague however is pretty good for zergs (stats decent) TvZ: 35-33 (51.5%) [ Games ] ZvP: 29-31 (48.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 32-29 (52.5%) [ Games ] Mirrors: 43 TvT | 46 ZvZ | 35 PvP Main problem is Individual leagues, no zergs to shine there. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On December 02 2008 15:13 thedeadhaji wrote: You can defend 4 pool with forge FE. Look @ jangbi vs savior on athena from blizzcon, or sangho vs ... vs... huk someone on medusa. That's 5pool, 4 pool gets your zerglings out six seconds faster, which is a lot seeing how close those games were in the beginning. | ||
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simcar
Korea (South)118 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:34 SuperJongMan wrote: So disagree. Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush. When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again? Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu. Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now. Bullshit, Do not compare players with TIME!!! If i was in 2001-2002 years in korea, i would be 3 times OSL and MSL champion ok ? Use your brain before posting ok ? AND where is ur Jaedong now ? His dominance last only 0.5 year. Now he is losing to every mediocre players.I watched the game : Jaedong vs Sea(Always sucked everywhere) . And i feel so sorry for Jaedong, Cause i didnt expect that he we fail so fast. Everybody is humilating JD with BattleCruisers etc... | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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mog87
United States1586 Posts
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LycanOfSparta
United States3 Posts
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SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
On December 02 2008 16:00 simcar wrote: Bullshit, Do not compare players with TIME!!! If i was in 2001-2002 years in korea, i would be 3 times OSL and MSL champion ok ? Use your brain before posting ok ? AND where is ur Jaedong now ? His dominance last only 0.5 year. Now he is losing to every mediocre players.I watched the game : Jaedong vs Sea(Always sucked everywhere) . And i feel so sorry for Jaedong, Cause i didnt expect that he we fail so fast. Everybody is humilating JD with BattleCruisers etc... Do you even watch professional Starcraft?... If I remember correctly, Jaedong has been one of the most consistently strong players for at least the last year and before recently he tore up anyone he faced. I mean, maybe he's not playing as hot now, but calling Sea as sucking everywhere, is just fucking ignorant. Nor calling people who beat him as mediocre. The last several games he dropped was to FBH, Kal, free, and Sea. Who if I'm not mistaken are some of the best players in the world right now. How about YOU use your brain before posting ok? | ||
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:34 SuperJongMan wrote: So disagree. Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush. When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again? Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu. Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now. Clueless. Jaedong is nothing compared to Savior for the Zerg race. His success comes from his mechanics, not his mind, and that's why the Zerg race regressed after Savior's innovations had led them to unprecedented heights. The Bisu revolution brought nothing new, as Plexa said. rA and co had been losing to Savior left and right with forge FE for many many months before Bisu came. I wish I could have the time to get my Savior articles out, as both parts 80% written, there's just a bunch of hassle with pics and formatting. There's seriously so many hidden gems in his play, it's ridiculous. But anyways, the success of races rarely has to do solely with maps. The only time where this is remotely applicable is the Protoss domination with paradoxx and guillotine at once. Even in Katrina age Flash still raped everyone's face, just like Savior made Longinus II and Reverse Temple his backyard. The absolute best transcend maps. Maps are far more anti-Terran than Zerg right now btw. Medusa is just unplayable, especially TvP. If you ignore statistics breaker Flash's 3-0, Medusa is 1-14 in favor of P, the one win coming with some nonamer versus a washed up rainbow. Thus it is 4-14 with Flash. That is exactly what Mercury was, the most complained against and hated map of all time. People just don't realize it now because Terrans just don't complain as much as Protoss do. It just simply has so many unfavorable elements (lack of ramp, no easy base outside of main, completely unbuildable). Granted many of the games are S level P's beating up on A/B level Terrans, but the fact is no Terran has won against a similar level opponent except for Flash's cute trick versus Bisu. Neo Requiem is currently the second most imbalanced PvT map of all time at 31-9, beating out Katrina's 25-9. Although part of this is because Flash the TvP imbalance breaker hasn't been playing on it (Katrina is 24-4 without Flash for reference). The only Zerg map remotely close to this level of imbalance is Byzantium (don't say a word about Harmony. That's only played by mass T's in proleague because there are no other neutral/decent options). RH3 might make things a little more even though for TvP, although like Medusa I think its stats are somewhat overinflated. And I don't think Byzantium is nearly as bad ZvP as people make it out to be, and rather is similar to Arcadia, which started off 0-11 TvZ in favor of Zerg before Terrans eventually brought it to even after they understood it better. The reasons for it are simply not good enough as other unquestionably imbalanced maps in that matchup have been, i,e Paradoxx, Katrina. The issue with map imbalance is always: how much is because the race is sucking and how much is because it really is imbalanced. Ex. Neo Requiem is totally bogus with iloveoov/Midas counting for 5/9 wins, and while Medusa would be not as biased if say Mind was playing as much as Bisu/Stork/Free are on it, it would still be uneven, just not absurd (60-70% maybe like Andro rather than 20%). The real problem is the lack of innovators. Contrary to all the retards who spout imbalance theories, race success has always relied on its innovators. Boxer, especially iloveoov, and now Flash have revolutionized Terran play at rates far beyond any other race, and virtually this alone is why Terrans have been the most successful race (the other is that Nada came very early on, while his counterparts in Bisu and Jaedong came in a much more competitive phase where their godlike mechanics couldn't win them 4 titles in a row). Zerg had to rely on Yellow for a long time, and were only truly successful under Savior's reign and followup (although Gorush did contribute some, but Savior perfected it right after. July is just himself, like Jaedong). Protoss had many parts distributed among more people, but rA overall developed many strategies that would later arise. He was just too inconsistent and not psychologically smart enough or transcendent mechanically to dominate like the bonjwas, even though his ideas put him at that level. Zerg is likely not going to get a full revival until another Savior innovator comes along. Everyone saw how little July's win did, and clearly Jaedong has not been inspiring any great race levels outside of his own. Zero is currently the only player to show anything remotely similar to the flair and intelligence that Savior did. I'm betting on him to go far. | ||
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CutietosS
United States13 Posts
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simcar
Korea (South)118 Posts
And he copied everything from MJY. Guys ok , Sea,Kal,Free,FBH are not mediocre players, but when JD lost to them a lot of ppl wrote in the threads like this : "OMG JD WTF ? stop losing to mediocre players." But i think Sea is becoming mediocre player(Was raped by Effort) etc.Watch his Matchlist. He is losing to much right now.How world's top progamer could lose bo3 series in WCG KOREA? 2 Silversky  SangHo, RorO etc They are WORLD top players too ? MB JD has bad days. But he is losing these days cause of his mechanics. His mechanics are broken.He should explore more tacktics IMO. THank you! | ||
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Jovan
Canada65 Posts
.Also you pretty much summed up what I was going to say (Terrans innovating and stomping left and right) but I didn't want to start any flame wars  . Well put though. | ||
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DeadVessel
United States6269 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:21 RamenStyle wrote: I believe either Effort or Modesty are the chosen ones to bring zergs back into the game. I think their capacity for attention to detail and situation evaluation sense, added to some needed unit efficiency will put zerg back on the map. Which means terrans will have for the next cycle to input their dominance. Effort hasn't done anything notable or proven to even have passable play consistantly, the only zerg right now that's showing promise in every mu is ZerO. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Savior is simply sucking hard in everything he does. Definitely not a map thing either. Besides Jaedong and Savior who are 'supposed' to represent the talented Zergs at the top, I think that Zero is a beast to be reckoned with and will grow even more in the future possibly making it all the way in some of the leagues. Recently featured on GomTV new to the scene Hoejja will make an impact soon enough as well I think. He showed the brain of an OSL champ there. Then there's always guys like yarnc, Luxury, Effort, GGPlay. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
Not to remember that Terran also pushed with this mechbuild hype so its like a TPvZ | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
But the thing is, Jaedong seemed to be the big hope for Zerg after savior, because of his completely unmatched execution of any other progamer. But he have been figured out, meaning his big disadvantage is his game sense. Lost so many times lately because of overconfidence in his own mechanics and multitasking. But my hopes are up that he will learn from his losses and come back stronger than ever. Also a player like Effort has a huge potential I think, becuase he has good execusion and crazy crazy game sense. Just whatch the game he just played in PL against Jangbi. Through the entire game he picked out templars and archons with so few units which is extremely important to keep the HT/archon count down, so that elephants can walk over toss. He is always taking his time to get maximum effect from his units. So Jaedong evolving and effort getting experience and zerg will be right back! ( I hope :-O ) | ||
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Like with savior vs firebathero. Maybe I just don't know enough about how to play zerg, but watching the game he constantly had to produce units to not die, which meant he couldn't build any drones, and he got so set back his economy was way behind without any harass from fbh. Still, in his situation, even knowing what's coming I don't know what the hell I'd do differently... terran just continuously produced units which zerg can't do at the same time as building drones. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 02 2008 23:24 -orb- wrote: Lol watching ZvTs recently has made me feel bad for zergs. Like with savior vs firebathero. Maybe I just don't know enough about how to play zerg, but watching the game he constantly had to produce units to not die, which meant he couldn't build any drones, and he got so set back his economy was way behind without any harass from fbh. Still, in his situation, even knowing what's coming I don't know what the hell I'd do differently... terran just continuously produced units which zerg can't do at the same time as building drones. You mean Savior had this game but he flanked like a D+ zerg where anyone C- or better would have slaughtered FBH's army? On December 02 2008 23:21 M2 wrote: I also wonder what happened with those "easy" wins for zergs over protoss, there were times when protosses didnt know what will come upon them like mass zerglings break or timing 2 hatchery hydra break/3 hatcehry hydra breaks, or fast mutas coming just before the cannons are finished (from one or two hatcharies) or killing the corsairs with scourges and muta rapes the cannons just before archons come or fast lurkers breaks..things like that, and back then protosses were so scared of all that things that sometimes they were too defensive and zergs were just taking the wholo map. Back then somehow zergs were mentaly superior to the protosses and they were confident enough to do all this types of things knowing that whatever happen they have the momentum, nowadays seems to be the opposite, protosses just play their game trying different tricks/build here and there and zergs are so scared that they cannot keep up with the protoss so they are just trying to play in a way not to risk anything, which makes them too predictable IMO Those games stopped happening when the unoriginal map makers figured protoss should be able to fast expand no matter what. (zzzzz) | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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stenole
Norway868 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:34 SuperJongMan wrote: I never said Jaedong was a bad player, he has a style which is unable to be recreated by any other Zerg alive to the level that Jaedong has it perfected. And there in lies the problem. Jaedong was effective at winning games, and in doing so lead the Zerg race into an intense low-econ struggle against Terran and Protoss (which fails btw). While Jaedong finds success with these bloodthirsty builds, other Zergs aren't so lucky and get crushed by Terran macro. So disagree. Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush. When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again? Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu. Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now. Without a solid macro zerg to bring the swarm back into alignment with the macro revolution, instead of trying to revive the art of poor zerg, Zerg will continue to lose and lose and lose on these maps. Savior was moving in the right direction - towards a more management oriented style but still lived life right on the edge of the knife, which obviously is extremely difficult to replicate. Watch his ZvT's and notice the absolute precision timing he had with his defilers and whatnot, GGPlay was able to build upon this even further with his profound lategame skills (sadly he lacked any real substance in his midgame) and took Zerg back into the safe ground, making the sick timing of savior unnecessary. Then Jaedong succeeded GGPlay but with a high intensity aggressive style which slaughtered the wheels savior had set in motion months earlier, Luxury (aka Jaedong Mk II) didn't help this either. Zero and Calm are moving in the right direction (from what i've seen) and heres hoping they develop into great pioneers of the Zerg race. | ||
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
July, Luxury, Yarnc and GGplay all are still very good players (although lacking skill in 1 MU or another). but I don't feel like any of them will be become "the one." If you look at some Z players in PL, a few stand out to me as possible successors: Calm - Calm doesn't really have a weak MU, but none of his MU's are quite S-class yet. He has had a couple wins in PL with speedlings (most notable vs ForGG, but I think that was just an aggressive 2 hatch muta type build), but he can still play a very good game of SC (see his series vs Lomo in the GSL). Most of his wins in PL have been vs clearly lesser opponents, and a lot of his wins vs better players have been somewhat all-in strats (such as vs Stork). His ZvP is probably his most questionable MU, but with Kal to practice with and July to teach him I think he can be very good in that MU as well. I feel that he is probably not that likely to become truly dominant, but I really like him any way RorO - Lately Roro hasn't been doing too good, and maybe he was just a fluke. But he has some SERIOUS ZvZ, beating Calm and July in the same night after beating Jaedong the night before.EffOrt- The "neo-savior." Has been playing fucking amazing these last few months. He is arguably the best player on his team right now and one of 2 Zergs left in the GSL. I think he actually would of broken out earlier in the Incruit OSL if he didn't have to play Flash (with 1 game on plasma :O ) in the Ro36. I think that the GSL might just be his ticket to stardom.type-b- Dude showed some seriously sick ZvT in the last few months. His ZvP and ZvZ aren't too good though, but he did make it into the Ro16 in the MSL and went to the 3rd game vs Yarnc who is currently one of if not arguably the best ZvZs in the world.ZerO- Current #2 player in PL and he's on a 6 game winning-steak, including a KTF all-kill (wins over Lux and Flash in 1 night). He's qualified for at least survivor the last 3 MSLs, but has failed each time. Maybe he has some sort of nerves or has drastically improved his play, but he played absolutely horrible in the Clubday MSL. Things are looking up for him though with his success in PL.Thezerg- my favorite from this list, he bursted onto the scene with his total trashing of Hwasin and Rumble in the Incruit OSL, and came SUPER close to advancing out of his group ( I blame Plasma, which btw, thezerg is responsible for 2 of the 3 total Z wins (or only 1 if you don't count his win on it in the MBC-OGN grudge match thing)). I was sure he was going to instantly become one of the best players on his team in PL, but with 2 loses (1 to boxer's valk build and 1 to Zero) and Saint starting to get wins, MBC benched him. He is now on SKTT1(and bound to play A WHOLE LOT), and if he manages to avoid the SKT Zerg curse, I believe he can still become something great.Then there are a few total newbies that have only played like 1 or 2 games that show some promise, but I won't go as far to consider them totally awesome yet (such as by.hero and Modesty). | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
dominated the offline prelimenaries it says it self that there is a lot of potential in the zerg race . | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 03 2008 01:36 Plexa wrote: I never said Jaedong was a bad player, he has a style which is unable to be recreated by any other Zerg alive to the level that Jaedong has it perfected. And there in lies the problem. Jaedong was effective at winning games, and in doing so lead the Zerg race into an intense low-econ struggle against Terran and Protoss (which fails btw). While Jaedong finds success with these bloodthirsty builds, other Zergs aren't so lucky and get crushed by Terran macro. Without a solid macro zerg to bring the swarm back into alignment with the macro revolution, instead of trying to revive the art of poor zerg, Zerg will continue to lose and lose and lose on these maps. Savior was moving in the right direction - towards a more management oriented style but still lived life right on the edge of the knife, which obviously is extremely difficult to replicate. Watch his ZvT's and notice the absolute precision timing he had with his defilers and whatnot, GGPlay was able to build upon this even further with his profound lategame skills (sadly he lacked any real substance in his midgame) and took Zerg back into the safe ground, making the sick timing of savior unnecessary. Then Jaedong succeeded GGPlay but with a high intensity aggressive style which slaughtered the wheels savior had set in motion months earlier, Luxury (aka Jaedong Mk II) didn't help this either. Zero and Calm are moving in the right direction (from what i've seen) and heres hoping they develop into great pioneers of the Zerg race. I don't know how his style (intense low-econ struggle ) fails vs Terrans for other players , when Luxury and Yarnc useing this style are haveing a walk in the park with terrans . His lings and 2 hat mutas still owns every terran recently . Isn't that why terrans started to do mech builds ? "While Jaedong finds success with these bloodthirsty builds, other Zergs aren't so lucky and get crushed by Terran macro." Just look at Yarnc and Luxury they are pretty much owning the shit out of terrans that trys to play a standard macro game . Two hat mutas are makeing terrans look like newbs , just look at Yarnc vs Sair . That Sair guy had the economy going had the defences rolling had the marines and medic massing and for what purpose ?? Yellow just harrased with mutas for a few minutes and then pressed 1a2a3a4a with his mutas and that guy never knew what hit him . I don't know other low - econ struggle builds that Jaedong is useing vs terrans or toss . If you can find me a low econ build he is using vs tosses or terrans please show it to me ? | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 02 2008 16:44 mog87 wrote: Sea doesnt suck in proleague buddy hes the "Prince of Proleague". Though the trying to humiliate him with battlecruisers is hilarious though, I don't think that they use it to hummiliate him . Maybe they see it as a viable strategy on big maps with lots of ressourses - Andromeda for example . Why not build 2 BC's for harrass when you have 3 - 4 basses going ? Who the fuck builds BC in middle game when zergs when still nothing has happend for humiliation ? Am i the only who thinks that 2 BC's can confuse a zerg and that you can do harras with them ? | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. this is why you need to write more FEs | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On December 02 2008 18:38 simcar wrote: # So true, JD is nothing compared to MJY. His dominance last only 2 seasons 1 osl and 1 msl. And he copied everything from MJY. Guys ok , Sea,Kal,Free,FBH are not mediocre players, but when JD lost to them a lot of ppl wrote in the threads like this : "OMG JD WTF ? stop losing to mediocre players." But i think Sea is becoming mediocre player(Was raped by Effort) etc.Watch his Matchlist. He is losing to much right now.How world's top progamer could lose bo3 series in WCG KOREA? 2 Silversky SangHo,RorO etc They are WORLD top players too ? MB JD has bad days. But he is losing these days cause of his mechanics. His mechanics are broken.He should explore more tacktics IMO. THank you! ? He's one of the zerg progamers that popularized the "new" ZvP plays and the 2hatch ZvT builds. | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
So that we can argue with him in his own threads, instead of taking over other people's threads. And so that his articles can go off and die with the other fe's (I think that the new home page might fix that though). Regardless, You can see ZvT working out well for, jaedong, lux, and his brother, yellow[arnc] as mentioned above in the thread. You can see ZvP working out well for July, Calm, and Effort. Remember that the title of the topic is about if zerg is dying out. From looking at the above list, I think that we can see that Zerg should be doing just fine - it's just that there isn't a zerg that is dominating right now. | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
TvZ: 60-39 (60.6 %) ZvP: 36-54 (40 %) In total Zerg are 75-104 (41.9 %) Didn't include PL because it is very balanced and is out of question. I think Zerg are just in a transitional phase. A dominating player is dying off and the throne has become vacated. A similar situation happened after Bisu beat Savior. It was evident that Savior would probably not win either of the summer leagues and there wasn't another really strong Zerg around besides GGPlay. The Daum ODT was absolutely horrible for zerg resuliting in only 3 qualifying for Daum OSL out of dozens. Daum ODT had a weird format with a ro48 consisting of 1v1 bo3 sets. I remember the atrocious ZvPers Yarnc and Jaedong matched up against Free and Much and just going "FUCK" inside my mind. And sure enough both of them lost. Luckily we had GGPlay pulling out a clutch win right before Jaedong went on the rise. Same goes for July. He came back out of nowhere and bent every single fucking Protoss in half. It's too bad we didn't have a July/GGPlay this season. Now that I think about it, I can't see a Zerg winning a starleague in spring. Jaedong is slumping and will probably not win anything for a while. The twins suck and will never win any major titles. GGPlay and Savior sure as fuck aren't going to win anything anymore. They will never return to the top Zerg echelon. Calm and Zero are just on a PL streak, I can't see them winning leagues yet. Zerg's best hopes lie with a slumping, brain dead Jaedong. But, as they say, hope dies last. | ||
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Tekin
2711 Posts
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Raz0r
United States287 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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JJH
Canada42 Posts
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JJH
Canada42 Posts
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On December 03 2008 02:11 Ideas wrote:I think this season in PL there are several up-and-coming Z players in the top charts who might be able to "succeed" Jaedong. As much as I love JD and hate to admit it, he is no longer the un-disputed "best Zerg player in the world" (and certainly no longer the best player overall :\ ). July, Luxury, Yarnc and GGplay all are still very good players (although lacking skill in 1 MU or another). but I don't feel like any of them will be become "the one." If you look at some Z players in PL, a few stand out to me as possible successors: Calm - Calm doesn't really have a weak MU, but none of his MU's are quite S-class yet. He has had a couple wins in PL with speedlings (most notable vs ForGG, but I think that was just an aggressive 2 hatch muta type build), but he can still play a very good game of SC (see his series vs Lomo in the GSL). Most of his wins in PL have been vs clearly lesser opponents, and a lot of his wins vs better players have been somewhat all-in strats (such as vs Stork). His ZvP is probably his most questionable MU, but with Kal to practice with and July to teach him I think he can be very good in that MU as well. I feel that he is probably not that likely to become truly dominant, but I really like him any way RorO - Lately Roro hasn't been doing too good, and maybe he was just a fluke. But he has some SERIOUS ZvZ, beating Calm and July in the same night after beating Jaedong the night before.EffOrt- The "neo-savior." Has been playing fucking amazing these last few months. He is arguably the best player on his team right now and one of 2 Zergs left in the GSL. I think he actually would of broken out earlier in the Incruit OSL if he didn't have to play Flash (with 1 game on plasma :O ) in the Ro36. I think that the GSL might just be his ticket to stardom.type-b- Dude showed some seriously sick ZvT in the last few months. His ZvP and ZvZ aren't too good though, but he did make it into the Ro16 in the MSL and went to the 3rd game vs Yarnc who is currently one of if not arguably the best ZvZs in the world.ZerO- Current #2 player in PL and he's on a 6 game winning-steak, including a KTF all-kill (wins over Lux and Flash in 1 night). He's qualified for at least survivor the last 3 MSLs, but has failed each time. Maybe he has some sort of nerves or has drastically improved his play, but he played absolutely horrible in the Clubday MSL. Things are looking up for him though with his success in PL.Thezerg- my favorite from this list, he bursted onto the scene with his total trashing of Hwasin and Rumble in the Incruit OSL, and came SUPER close to advancing out of his group ( I blame Plasma, which btw, thezerg is responsible for 2 of the 3 total Z wins (or only 1 if you don't count his win on it in the MBC-OGN grudge match thing)). I was sure he was going to instantly become one of the best players on his team in PL, but with 2 loses (1 to boxer's valk build and 1 to Zero) and Saint starting to get wins, MBC benched him. He is now on SKTT1(and bound to play A WHOLE LOT), and if he manages to avoid the SKT Zerg curse, I believe he can still become something great.Then there are a few total newbies that have only played like 1 or 2 games that show some promise, but I won't go as far to consider them totally awesome yet (such as by.hero and ModestyGreat post. | ||
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G5
United States2881 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. Seen the stats. And more importantly, I have seen the games and I still say... On December 02 2008 12:51 G5 wrote: z's are doing fine imo | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
To be honest though, Zergs will be fine in the upcoming seasons, although I disagree that maps are completely blameless for dearth of winning zergs. | ||
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Nal_CrayOn
600 Posts
unique at all. If zerg couldnt figure out the mutalist control, i would expected more loses in proleagues. I also blame maps too heh | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
Blame Zerg for being too stubborn for not learning to use queens. It seems all Korean zergs are just too conservative do we have to wait for a foreigner to come up with a new playstyle? | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On December 04 2008 00:55 LastWish wrote: Blame Zerg for their predictable 3 hatch into spire tech - toss counter with perfect archon push(nowadays with even more predictable 5 hatch hydra afterwards). Blame Zerg for being too stubborn for not learning to use queens. It seems all Korean zergs are just too conservative do we have to wait for a foreigner to come up with a new playstyle? That's like saying, oh toss are so predictible with their forge FE. Zergs 3hatch because its the safest opening you can do and it gives you a chance to get into midgame at least even almost every time.. That's not the problem. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 04 2008 00:55 LastWish wrote: Blame Zerg for their predictable 3 hatch into spire tech - toss counter with perfect archon push(nowadays with even more predictable 5 hatch hydra afterwards). Blame Zerg for being too stubborn for not learning to use queens. It seems all Korean zergs are just too conservative do we have to wait for a foreigner to come up with a new playstyle? Protoss knows that if they survive vs JulyZerg early game he will go sauron every time and yet they still get raped ... ... blame protoss for not learning to use scouts ... | ||
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falls
United States168 Posts
I mean its less than a month before 2009, there will be one zerg to rule them all :D | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
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heyitsme
153 Posts
It's simple: it's because of the maps. In proleague, the coaching staff picks the best maps possible for every players. In individual leagues you don't get to pick the maps that you play on, therefore zergs are forced to play on every map and when the map pool overall is bad for zerg then more zerg players lose. I think individual leagues should have a bigger map pool, and the players should be able to veto a map. Metagame wise, ppl complain that zergs nowadays are too agressive and the macro zerg needs to be reinvented... IMO Zerg can't reinvent itself macro-wise, like sum1 else said 3 hatch opening is at the limit of safe and macro advantage. Instead I think that zerg should keep up with the agressive openings, and find safe ways to transition them into a macro oriented mid/late-game. | ||
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HajnaL
France44 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. Very interesting... Savior suffers from early game aggression by Terran (Arena MSL, ClubDay MSL, Bacchus OSL) but lately he looked very strong against any type of terran play like mech builds. But if you look at his last game versus FBH, it was kind of a Jaedong play although savior doesn't have his control. Is it the reason why savior (even when he's slumping) is playing descent starcraft vs a macro player like FlaSh who is allowing him to build up, whereas FlaSh is getting destroyed in early game by Jaedong ?? | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
HoeJJa[S.G] vods, against Much. He's an awesome Zerg player in these dire times of Zerg. Although I hate Zerg players, I like him. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On December 03 2008 10:36 TheTyranid wrote: Stats for all individual leagues during the fall season: TvZ: 60-39 (60.6 %) ZvP: 36-54 (40 %) In total Zerg are 75-104 (41.9 %) Didn't include PL because it is very balanced and is out of question. I think Zerg are just in a transitional phase. A dominating player is dying off and the throne has become vacated. A similar situation happened after Bisu beat Savior. It was evident that Savior would probably not win either of the summer leagues and there wasn't another really strong Zerg around besides GGPlay. The Daum ODT was absolutely horrible for zerg resuliting in only 3 qualifying for Daum OSL out of dozens. Daum ODT had a weird format with a ro48 consisting of 1v1 bo3 sets. I remember the atrocious ZvPers Yarnc and Jaedong matched up against Free and Much and just going "FUCK" inside my mind. And sure enough both of them lost. Luckily we had GGPlay pulling out a clutch win right before Jaedong went on the rise. Same goes for July. He came back out of nowhere and bent every single fucking Protoss in half. It's too bad we didn't have a July/GGPlay this season. Now that I think about it, I can't see a Zerg winning a starleague in spring. Jaedong is slumping and will probably not win anything for a while. The twins suck and will never win any major titles. GGPlay and Savior sure as fuck aren't going to win anything anymore. They will never return to the top Zerg echelon. Calm and Zero are just on a PL streak, I can't see them winning leagues yet. Zerg's best hopes lie with a slumping, brain dead Jaedong. But, as they say, hope dies last. FYI - The math is slightly off. Total games = 189 Zerg Victories = 39 + 36 = 75 Winning % = 75/189 = .3968 = 39.68% Not a huge difference, but math for math's sake. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
the others dont impress me all that much | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On December 05 2008 01:28 HajnaL wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats And yes, this is the result of the map pool and a change in map style since around the end of 2006 which basically made a number of things that didn't favor zerg. Things like RLT and Longinus which were concieved in the midpoint of Saviors reign were terrible to Zergs (barring savior) and the macro game just left Zerg for dead. In my opinion, Jaedong is one of the reasons why the Zerg have been doing so badly. Savior revolutionised the management part of the Zerg game, something which has always been there but never properly fleshed out until Gorush, then later Savior. However, as per usual, there is the aggressive alternative. After savior slumped there wasn't really any Zerg to idolize until Jaedong came along. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. An interesting point to make is that since the slump of savior when Zergs started playing more aggressive ZvT their ZvP has slumped. While people may attribute that to the bisu or whatever, Protoss were already playing a more macro oriented game by late 2006 and were winning more. Basically, the "revolution" just brought to the fore front the trends that had already been in place for a long time. As management faded in favor of aggression, Zergs couldn't keep up with the HEAVY macro style of Protoss and over all started to suck badly. This, imo, is a result of the aggressive revolution in ZvT. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. Very interesting... Savior suffers from early game aggression by Terran (Arena MSL, ClubDay MSL, Bacchus OSL) but lately he looked very strong against any type of terran play like mech builds. But if you look at his last game versus FBH, it was kind of a Jaedong play although savior doesn't have his control. Is it the reason why savior (even when he's slumping) is playing descent starcraft vs a macro player like FlaSh who is allowing him to build up, whereas FlaSh is getting destroyed in early game by Jaedong ?? Flash might beat Jaedong when he stops 14ccing | ||
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
GSL and PL spoilers: + Show Spoiler + in the GSL Effort going 2-hatch muta on medusa (which is IMO pretty fucking balanced ZvP), then deciding best's attack on chupung wasn't coming after he sniped the shuttle(i'm pretty sure that's what happened at least). THEN effort fucking knew light was doing mech build on medusa YET kept his lings attacking the motherfucking temples like an idiot and let light's vultures totally wreck his eco. Effort still played well, but just had some fucking horrible decisons T_T Then there's fucking Jaedong who dealed with FBH's bunker-rush like a damn D- player :\ WE NEED A SMART ZERG | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On December 06 2008 06:09 arb wrote: Flash might beat Jaedong when he stops 14ccing flash doesn't try to 14 cc every game anymore, only in TvT. He tried to 14 cc without scouting against jaedong on harmony in proleague though. against a 9 pool. didn't work out so hot for him. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
I honestly like this flash better Still, I remember when all of flash's opponents tried to cheese/2fac flash whenever they played against him | ||
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Murk
Canada304 Posts
On December 04 2008 01:02 lgdDante wrote: That's like saying, oh toss are so predictible with their forge FE. Zergs 3hatch because its the safest opening you can do and it gives you a chance to get into midgame at least even almost every time.. That's not the problem. Toss are to predictible with their FE, I go 2 gate and im called a cheeser its quite amazing ..... | ||
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