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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:56 DrStein wrote: Will the Toss golden age end when the zerg discover an effective way to deal with FE instead of "Overmacro" toss? 4pool, no way Forge FE beats it. Do it. Every time. until they 2 Gate again. | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:04 Plexa wrote: Zergs are suffering at the moment, any one who denies that really needs to look at the recent stats  But they're making it into line ups, and past qualifiers, indicating an overall higher quality of Zerg players than previously. Their stats still might be bad but the fact that they're playing when coaches could just as easily chosen not to says that the coach at least has confidence that Zergs at least have chance at winning, better than a Protoss/Terran. It's true that in the most recent OSL/MSL there has been a dearth of Zergs but I think that trend will be reversed with the coming OSL/MSL. Jaedong reversed a number of the changes that Savior had made to zerg, including bringing back the 2 hatch muta and relying heavily on muta harass to win games (vs terran notably). Thus we have a generations of Zergs who have been tuned to play aggressive games, sacrificing econ where necesarry, and living by the skin of their teeth. In this macor day and age it was only a matter of time before the aggressive flair wore off and the need for a real management zerg to step up and truly bring Zerg into the modern age. Who that will be i just dont know - but i do know that Zerg need this revolution badly. Jaedong's muta micro is a crutch for Jaedong and a handicap for all the other zergs out there (with the exception of Lux, possibly Kwanro). I don't know what to make of it in the grand scheme of Zerg performance, however. Could it have forced P's and T's to make their muta defense better, neutralizing a potent tool for the other zergs? It is an interesting observation that aggressive zergs had a resurgence in the last few months before dying out. However, there are some exceptions these days. July know how to play a sick management/aggressive ZvP (can't ZvT for the life of him). Saint can play a sick ZvP as well (can't ZvT really, ZvZ is passable i guess). Jaedong couldn't play ZvP, but then learned how to play a nice management ZvP and started to slump a bit ZvT I guess the two matchups cannot be mastered simultaneously anymore. imo Zerg need a management revolution in ZvT to keep up, and then ZvP will fall into place. I thought GGplay was going to bring back management zerg. His muta micro is so terrible (not that it's bad, I'm sure it isn't) he just chooses not to do anything with his muta. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he didn't run into Fantasy. Maybe not revolution in the sense of THE revolution, but definitely showing Zergs that you can manage a game for a win. I don't know who, but the next zerg will be unlike anything we've ever seen. Because if he isn't, he will be eliminated very quickly and fade from the forefront of Starcraft. My other completely bung zerg theory: + Show Spoiler + A year ago, the progamer Zergs that tested the maps were really, really, heads and shoulders better than the P/T competition when the balanced the maps. So when the maps were finally placed out on proleague, they were terrible for Zergs b/c they balanced it with a much stronger Zerg player pool in mind. =p Food for thought, and KeSPA better have better balancing procedures than this. But you never know with KeSPA. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On December 02 2008 14:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: 4pool, no way Forge FE beats it. Do it. Every time. until they 2 Gate again. You can defend 4 pool with forge FE. Look @ jangbi vs savior on athena from blizzcon, or sangho vs ... vs... huk someone on medusa. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
Nah, Effort is actually quite good, he can become a force. Or he can become 815. Also very talented, but like Effort, no individual(yes I know he was in Incruit "OSL" aka dual) leagues yet. Also watch out for HoeJJa (ChoJJa is his mentor  ). | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
2008 MBCGame Season 2 Survivor Tournament (Clubday survivor) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/154_MBC_Survivor_15th Maps used (3): Athena, Blue Storm, Byzantium TvZ: 13-5 (72.2%) [ Games ] ZvP: 5-14 (26.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 4-10 (28.6%) [ Games ] Mirrors: 8 TvT | 1 ZvZ | 0 PvP 2008 ClubDay MBCGame Starleague http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/155_ClubDay_2008_MSL Maps used (4): Athena 2, Byzantium 2, Destination, Medusa TvZ: 5-7 (41.7%) [ Games ] ZvP: 1-6 (14.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 20-9 (69%) [ Games ] Mirrors: 12 TvT | 3 ZvZ | 23 PvP Byzantium <3, zerg killer. 2008-2009 Shinhan Bank Proleague however is pretty good for zergs (stats decent) TvZ: 35-33 (51.5%) [ Games ] ZvP: 29-31 (48.3%) [ Games ] PvT: 32-29 (52.5%) [ Games ] Mirrors: 43 TvT | 46 ZvZ | 35 PvP Main problem is Individual leagues, no zergs to shine there. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
On December 02 2008 15:13 thedeadhaji wrote: You can defend 4 pool with forge FE. Look @ jangbi vs savior on athena from blizzcon, or sangho vs ... vs... huk someone on medusa. That's 5pool, 4 pool gets your zerglings out six seconds faster, which is a lot seeing how close those games were in the beginning. | ||
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simcar
Korea (South)118 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:34 SuperJongMan wrote: So disagree. Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush. When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again? Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu. Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now. Bullshit, Do not compare players with TIME!!! If i was in 2001-2002 years in korea, i would be 3 times OSL and MSL champion ok ? Use your brain before posting ok ? AND where is ur Jaedong now ? His dominance last only 0.5 year. Now he is losing to every mediocre players.I watched the game : Jaedong vs Sea(Always sucked everywhere) . And i feel so sorry for Jaedong, Cause i didnt expect that he we fail so fast. Everybody is humilating JD with BattleCruisers etc... | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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mog87
United States1586 Posts
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LycanOfSparta
United States3 Posts
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SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
On December 02 2008 16:00 simcar wrote: Bullshit, Do not compare players with TIME!!! If i was in 2001-2002 years in korea, i would be 3 times OSL and MSL champion ok ? Use your brain before posting ok ? AND where is ur Jaedong now ? His dominance last only 0.5 year. Now he is losing to every mediocre players.I watched the game : Jaedong vs Sea(Always sucked everywhere) . And i feel so sorry for Jaedong, Cause i didnt expect that he we fail so fast. Everybody is humilating JD with BattleCruisers etc... Do you even watch professional Starcraft?... If I remember correctly, Jaedong has been one of the most consistently strong players for at least the last year and before recently he tore up anyone he faced. I mean, maybe he's not playing as hot now, but calling Sea as sucking everywhere, is just fucking ignorant. Nor calling people who beat him as mediocre. The last several games he dropped was to FBH, Kal, free, and Sea. Who if I'm not mistaken are some of the best players in the world right now. How about YOU use your brain before posting ok? | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:34 SuperJongMan wrote: So disagree. Jaedong is simply superior to Savior in everyway. Much like Savior was to GoRush. When Savior couldn't touch Bisu, who leveled the playing field for Zergs again? Who came out with 5 hatch on BS, 4 hatch hydra builds? Savior was still working on 3 hatch lair variants for ZvP even by the Katrina game with Bisu. Jaedong doesn't get credit because his clutch title runs haven't been as impressive. He doesn't sit there turtling vs Midas, the slowest moving terran ever, for HOURS for his semis. Jaedong comes for blood, and leaves fulfilled. He doesn't need to waste 20 minutes if he can kill you in 5, or maybe he will go ahead and play a perfect 50 minute game cuz he can. If Jaedong had to beat Ra and Chojja and Oov and Nada for his titles, Jaedong would be platinum diamond plutonium mouse by now. Clueless. Jaedong is nothing compared to Savior for the Zerg race. His success comes from his mechanics, not his mind, and that's why the Zerg race regressed after Savior's innovations had led them to unprecedented heights. The Bisu revolution brought nothing new, as Plexa said. rA and co had been losing to Savior left and right with forge FE for many many months before Bisu came. I wish I could have the time to get my Savior articles out, as both parts 80% written, there's just a bunch of hassle with pics and formatting. There's seriously so many hidden gems in his play, it's ridiculous. But anyways, the success of races rarely has to do solely with maps. The only time where this is remotely applicable is the Protoss domination with paradoxx and guillotine at once. Even in Katrina age Flash still raped everyone's face, just like Savior made Longinus II and Reverse Temple his backyard. The absolute best transcend maps. Maps are far more anti-Terran than Zerg right now btw. Medusa is just unplayable, especially TvP. If you ignore statistics breaker Flash's 3-0, Medusa is 1-14 in favor of P, the one win coming with some nonamer versus a washed up rainbow. Thus it is 4-14 with Flash. That is exactly what Mercury was, the most complained against and hated map of all time. People just don't realize it now because Terrans just don't complain as much as Protoss do. It just simply has so many unfavorable elements (lack of ramp, no easy base outside of main, completely unbuildable). Granted many of the games are S level P's beating up on A/B level Terrans, but the fact is no Terran has won against a similar level opponent except for Flash's cute trick versus Bisu. Neo Requiem is currently the second most imbalanced PvT map of all time at 31-9, beating out Katrina's 25-9. Although part of this is because Flash the TvP imbalance breaker hasn't been playing on it (Katrina is 24-4 without Flash for reference). The only Zerg map remotely close to this level of imbalance is Byzantium (don't say a word about Harmony. That's only played by mass T's in proleague because there are no other neutral/decent options). RH3 might make things a little more even though for TvP, although like Medusa I think its stats are somewhat overinflated. And I don't think Byzantium is nearly as bad ZvP as people make it out to be, and rather is similar to Arcadia, which started off 0-11 TvZ in favor of Zerg before Terrans eventually brought it to even after they understood it better. The reasons for it are simply not good enough as other unquestionably imbalanced maps in that matchup have been, i,e Paradoxx, Katrina. The issue with map imbalance is always: how much is because the race is sucking and how much is because it really is imbalanced. Ex. Neo Requiem is totally bogus with iloveoov/Midas counting for 5/9 wins, and while Medusa would be not as biased if say Mind was playing as much as Bisu/Stork/Free are on it, it would still be uneven, just not absurd (60-70% maybe like Andro rather than 20%). The real problem is the lack of innovators. Contrary to all the retards who spout imbalance theories, race success has always relied on its innovators. Boxer, especially iloveoov, and now Flash have revolutionized Terran play at rates far beyond any other race, and virtually this alone is why Terrans have been the most successful race (the other is that Nada came very early on, while his counterparts in Bisu and Jaedong came in a much more competitive phase where their godlike mechanics couldn't win them 4 titles in a row). Zerg had to rely on Yellow for a long time, and were only truly successful under Savior's reign and followup (although Gorush did contribute some, but Savior perfected it right after. July is just himself, like Jaedong). Protoss had many parts distributed among more people, but rA overall developed many strategies that would later arise. He was just too inconsistent and not psychologically smart enough or transcendent mechanically to dominate like the bonjwas, even though his ideas put him at that level. Zerg is likely not going to get a full revival until another Savior innovator comes along. Everyone saw how little July's win did, and clearly Jaedong has not been inspiring any great race levels outside of his own. Zero is currently the only player to show anything remotely similar to the flair and intelligence that Savior did. I'm betting on him to go far. | ||
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CutietosS
United States13 Posts
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simcar
Korea (South)118 Posts
And he copied everything from MJY. Guys ok , Sea,Kal,Free,FBH are not mediocre players, but when JD lost to them a lot of ppl wrote in the threads like this : "OMG JD WTF ? stop losing to mediocre players." But i think Sea is becoming mediocre player(Was raped by Effort) etc.Watch his Matchlist. He is losing to much right now.How world's top progamer could lose bo3 series in WCG KOREA? 2 Silversky  SangHo, RorO etc They are WORLD top players too ? MB JD has bad days. But he is losing these days cause of his mechanics. His mechanics are broken.He should explore more tacktics IMO. THank you! | ||
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Jovan
Canada65 Posts
.Also you pretty much summed up what I was going to say (Terrans innovating and stomping left and right) but I didn't want to start any flame wars  . Well put though. | ||
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DeadVessel
United States6269 Posts
On December 02 2008 13:21 RamenStyle wrote: I believe either Effort or Modesty are the chosen ones to bring zergs back into the game. I think their capacity for attention to detail and situation evaluation sense, added to some needed unit efficiency will put zerg back on the map. Which means terrans will have for the next cycle to input their dominance. Effort hasn't done anything notable or proven to even have passable play consistantly, the only zerg right now that's showing promise in every mu is ZerO. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Savior is simply sucking hard in everything he does. Definitely not a map thing either. Besides Jaedong and Savior who are 'supposed' to represent the talented Zergs at the top, I think that Zero is a beast to be reckoned with and will grow even more in the future possibly making it all the way in some of the leagues. Recently featured on GomTV new to the scene Hoejja will make an impact soon enough as well I think. He showed the brain of an OSL champ there. Then there's always guys like yarnc, Luxury, Effort, GGPlay. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
Not to remember that Terran also pushed with this mechbuild hype so its like a TPvZ | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
But the thing is, Jaedong seemed to be the big hope for Zerg after savior, because of his completely unmatched execution of any other progamer. But he have been figured out, meaning his big disadvantage is his game sense. Lost so many times lately because of overconfidence in his own mechanics and multitasking. But my hopes are up that he will learn from his losses and come back stronger than ever. Also a player like Effort has a huge potential I think, becuase he has good execusion and crazy crazy game sense. Just whatch the game he just played in PL against Jangbi. Through the entire game he picked out templars and archons with so few units which is extremely important to keep the HT/archon count down, so that elephants can walk over toss. He is always taking his time to get maximum effect from his units. So Jaedong evolving and effort getting experience and zerg will be right back! ( I hope :-O ) | ||
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