EPTNo more bullshit [No MBS] - Page 6
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TW WiNNinG 54
United States250 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5823 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:24 maybenexttime wrote: Yeah, but you're trying to prove that by saying they won't decrease the APM required in any significant way, which is not a concern of most people to start with. ^____^;; Gah I didn't even bring up APM, you brought up APM !! :D On November 03 2008 01:26 fusionsdf wrote: well I think its as bas as I pointed out in my post above. And people barely looking at their base is pretty damn bad in my books I don't disagree!! And one more thing, Moon playing WC3 is obviously very fast, Moon playing SC2 is even faster - just because it's not the same kind of speed as in SC doesn't make it worse, in this context anyway. EDIT: I'm not sure I'm making this last point very well.. Basically what I'm trying to say is, ITW posts the nada vod as a virtuoso performance, and it is.. And I'm saying a FPVod of Moon is a virtuoso performance as well, just a different instrument. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On November 03 2008 00:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: 1. Automining is much worse than MBS. Let's rally to get automining removed first. 2. Haha. I laugh at the people who say mechanical skill in SC makes strategy obsolete. I laugh because it's ironic. Strategy exists at the highest level of SC and it overcomes mechanics in more than half of all professional games. Of course, you all have looked for strategy and have failed to find it. Therefore you suck at strategy. And yet you don't see that conclusion. Instead, you conclude that there is no strategy and so you call for SC2 to rely even more heavily on strategy. Haha. There is a reason why geniuses like Grrr, Slayer, Elky cant win vs Jaedong. It is not because they are dumb or lack of strategy. It is because they are too slow. And i'm quite sure that they all have an higher IQ than Jaedong. This apm/mechanics vs strategy debate is so retarded. It is like people who say that for example Hopkins is a boxing champion only because of his technical skills. Yea he is an artist but he is also a fucking beast. | ||
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foeffa
Belgium2115 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:33 Boblion wrote: There is a reason why geniuses like Grrr, Slayer, Elky cant win vs Jaedong. It is not because they are dumb or lack of strategy. It is because they are too slow. its not like jaedong is a total strategy noob. If grrr played jaedong, at best, at best and thats assuming grr is somehow up to date, it would be strategically even. so if you got rid of mechanics, maybe it would be close. But you know where this argument leads | ||
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myIRE
Belgium229 Posts
on another note, sc2 isnt even out yet and people are calling for armageddon within "pro-scene" anyhow, like, none of you ever felt annoyed of having to click every rax manualy to build something? like 10 years ago, when pro-gaming wasnt even a term? and spamming all over your screen wasnt the only thing that defined starcraft as "the game"? | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:33 Boblion wrote: There is a reason why geniuses like Grrr, Slayer, Elky cant win vs Jaedong. It is not because they are dumb or lack of strategy. It is because they are too slow. And i'm quite sure that they all have an higher IQ than Jaedong. I'm sure Kasparov doesn't have the highest IQ in history, yet I'm sure he'd DESTROY whoever has the highest IQ if they were to play a game of chess. The reason elky will lose to jaedong at BW has nothing to do with IQ, Jaedong is quite simply better at starcraft. And that is ignoring the great many assumptions you are making about the IQ of Jaedong/the IQ of Elky, Grrr and Slayer (although I'm sure they are all quite smart). | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:33 Boblion wrote: There is a reason why geniuses like Grrr, Slayer, Elky cant win vs Jaedong. It is not because they are dumb or lack of strategy. It is because they are too slow. And i'm quite sure that they all have an higher IQ than Jaedong. On what exactly do you base the assumption that Elky would make better decisions in a game of brood war than jaedong? Becuase I think it is an absolutly horrbibly stupid thing to say. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
they absolutelly make this SPORT worse. a big fail in actual game industry are these "UI' improvements, pretty graphics, shallow games. It includes 95% of the games released. From Lost Planet(Epic Fail) to Fallout 3(such a shame to a interesting franchise) games like the good old megaman 4, where u doesnt have dashes over dashes, fucking special moves that "NY1" can do are incredibly fun and challenging to players. The biggest problem here is what ppl find evolution, approach games to reality is not the correct way to follow, nor make things easier and easier, know why? Cause what will happen in the next 30 years? games played by voice command? cerebral waves? the death of videogames? this time we got mbs and automine in sc2, under the argument that it will please the retarded players, a community that grows in geometrical progression, in sc3 they will try to implant voice commands, in sc4 even war casualities without the arms and blind ppl will be able to play, and in sc5 ... well there will be no sc5, prolly even the earth wont exist anymore @IQ shit dude, this is fucking horrible, IQ isnt the absolute true nor the exact representation of a person intelligence, Isaac Newton had incredible Math skills that could not be represented by his IQ f/e | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:38 myIRE wrote: you cant compare wc3 and sc to each other, the direction wc3 took was totaly new, concept of heroes? and really, there r no units that deal "ton" of dmg like in sc, where a marine dies in 2 hits (lolz) , so you cant let ur units in wc3 just stand there and do their job, u need to focus fire. on another note, sc2 isnt even out yet and people are calling for armageddon within "pro-scene" anyhow, like, none of you ever felt annoyed of having to click every rax manualy to build something? like 10 years ago, when pro-gaming wasnt even a term? and spamming all over your screen wasnt the only thing that defined starcraft as "the game"? No, I was never annoyed by that. I was never annoyed by WC2. When I played casually I didn't care at all - the game was fun as hell. When I started playing seriously I saw some of the korean FPVods and was like "woooooow I want to be able to do that!!". Your last comment about "spamming all over your screen" is ignorant and offensive. On November 03 2008 01:42 Ki_Do wrote: ah F.A i disagree about automine and mbs making the game better. they absolutelly make this SPORT worse. a big fail in actual game industry are these "UI' improvements, pretty graphics, shallow games. It includes 95% of the games released. From Lost Planet(Epic Fail) to Fallout 3(such a shame to a interesting franchise) games like the good old megaman 4, where u doesnt have dashes over dashes, fucking special moves that "NY1" can do are incredibly fun and challenging to players. The biggest problem here is what ppl find evolution, approach games to reality is not the correct way to follow, nor make things easier and easier, know why? Cause what will happen in the next 30 years? games played by voice command? cerebral waves? the death of videogames? this time we got mbs and automine in sc2, under the argument that it will please the retarded players, a community that grows in geometrical progression, in sc3 they will try to implant voice commands, in sc4 even war casualities without the arms and blind ppl will be able to play, and in sc5 ... well there will be no sc5, prolly even the earth wont exist anymore You misread, I said I think they will make the game WORSE, but I don't think they will destroy it. I *love* difficult games, I recently started playing the platformer I wanna be the guy (you should dl it, it's free - or at least look at some vids on youtube) and I love it (I need to beat one more boss before the final, but wtf it's the only thing that's annoyed me so far - the boss takes a stupidly long time to appear so you have to waste like 30 seconds for his entrance animation to finish every single time, so I just decided that fuck it, I enjoyed the rest of the game, I can finish this bit some other day). | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
and.... viva argentina!! grande D10S!!!! | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:38 myIRE wrote: you cant compare wc3 and sc to each other, the direction wc3 took was totaly new, concept of heroes? and really, there r no units that deal "ton" of dmg like in sc, where a marine dies in 2 hits (lolz) , so you cant let ur units in wc3 just stand there and do their job, u need to focus fire. on another note, sc2 isnt even out yet and people are calling for armageddon within "pro-scene" anyhow, like, none of you ever felt annoyed of having to click every rax manualy to build something? like 10 years ago, when pro-gaming wasnt even a term? and spamming all over your screen wasnt the only thing that defined starcraft as "the game"? no, because if you dont want to have great mechanics and practice hitting barracks and building marines etc, you can still do that. I mean its entriely possible for a 30APM mouse only noob to come in and have fun. Mosy of us started out that way. The only time its not fun for that noob is when hes getting run over by players with better mechanics. But you have automatchmaking to fix that, not MBS. Its like play piano. A three year old with no muscle control can still have fun playing a keyboard, but if you want to play a keyboard well (competitively) you need the mechanics and practice to do so, which really isnt to be unexpected. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
proper matchmaking does. | ||
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:40 KlaCkoN wrote: On what exactly do you base the assumption that Elky would make better decisions in a game of brood war than jaedong? Becuase I think it is an absolutly horrbibly stupid thing to say. What i know is that Jaedong has 400+ effective apm and a beastly macro / control. Call it strategy if you want but when i see him moving a large hydra army with stacked mutas to pick off templars at the same time i think it is mechanics. Same when he used a double muta harrass vs upMagic I wish i could do that. I know his bo but i cant. I'm too slow and my multitask is horrible. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
that say absolutely nothing about their comparative strategy You cant assume just because one player has really good mechanics that he has no strategy behind them | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On November 03 2008 01:57 Boblion wrote: What i know is that Jaedong has 400+ effective apm and a beastly macro / control. Call it strategy if you want but when i see him moving a large hydra army with stacked mutas to pick off templars at the same time i think it is mechanics. Same when he used a double muta harrass vs upMagic I wish i could do that. I know his bo but i cant. I'm too slow and my multitask is horrible. Umm what? Yes moving a largy hydra stack while muta harrasing is mechanics. Knowing a bo is such a small, small, small part of strategy in broodwar. You are just expected to know them, it's not skill really, not anymore than knowing basic openings in chess is "skill". I ask again on what grounds do you base the assumption that Elky would make better decisions in a game of brood war than jaedong? Becuase I think it is an absolutly horrbibly stupid thing to say | ||
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