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another problem here is,
some ppl think they know what strategy is like...
some ppl think 3 hatch muta( mutalisk harass then lurker to defilers) is not strategy just because it has been made a lot of times, ppl think that strategy is a static defense with some tanks and turrets in the middle of the map, making use of the cliffs , if ur fking plan is to harass the enemy economy to cripple him, its ur strategy, no matter if this has been made 10zillion times, the strategies used by progamers are so complex that require multitask training to be performed, if you dont like them just use urs against ur friends with 50 apm, the higher the skill level grows, the harder it gets to perform high class build orders, the only ones who complain about that are rly nonsense, a lot of newbies in b.net use korean bos, even without the enough mechanics to do that, things like 2gate FE, proxy gateway, 1rax fe and dont even care about not being able to do this like the pros, since it work against ppl at the same lvl
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On November 03 2008 02:31 Boblion wrote:
The main problem is that you can have lot of strategy knowledge with experience and without being "active". I think that people around D+/ C level know already a lot about this game. But if you want to be the best being smart won't be the most important thing at first. You will have to train 10 hours a day to get flawless mechanics because having good ideas and cheese wont always save you + if you rely to much on Dt cheese you will make Idra cry about imbalances :p.
So in my opinion mechanics and fast reaction time > strategy nowadays because this game has been quite figured out. However there is also the rock/paper /scissor situations like 3 gates goon vs 2 gates + obs or 5 pool vs Fe. It isnt strategy imo, just some BO gambles.
Seriously you guy should understand that Stracraft in itself isnt a really difficult game. Strats are easy to understand ( dropping units being mineral line, making more gates/facts to do a timed attack ) this is why it is also so popular even among noobs. But it is also a fast paced RTS, that is why it is so hard to master and addictive. you can't wait for 1 min think about your next move, you are constantly busy, making units, moving units, making buildings, scouting and so on. That is why you need to be fast and have a good control. If Sc had a slower pace it would have died a long time ago because the game in itself is dull. Speed makes it interesting.
Did you watch Nony versus july?
For a looong time noone made any offensive moves at all.
But when early game was over July was ahead. Not just by a small amount either.
So do you think the reason for this was Nony failing to follow a basic B.O?
Or July reading that B.O like a book and constantly doing small stuff that he knew would get him ahead versus that particular B.O and nony in turn failing to adapt to that?.
Or jaedong versus whoever on othello, quite a while ago.
Where he far into midgame popped a bunch of mutas to deal with a goon/temp timing attacked.
Even rekrul, who was quite a good player was absolutely amazed by the perfect timing.
Jeadong saw this window coming ahead of time and used a counter noone before had used.
Do you really think a random C guy would be able to do that?.
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Having flawless timing and execution isnt my definition of strategy. I won't respond to your posts anymore because it is useless, we have different ideas.
@ fusion: as you said new game features will really help to make the gameplay deeper and more interesting.
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On November 03 2008 02:54 Boblion wrote:
Having flawless timing and execution isnt my definition of strategy.
Execution has nothing to do with either of my examples.
Timing yes, in the second one but what was amazing was that he saw the attack coming long before it came. Not only that he knew _when_ it would come and had the perfect counter ready right when it did.
AND it was a completely new counter.
This is strategy. Continually adapting your game plan to what you opponent is doing, abusing all the small timings to your favour is strategy.
Planning a cheese ahead of time is also strategy sure, but in my oppinion nowhere near as impressive.
And 3 hat muta> expand> lurkers > defilers is NOT strategy. It's just how the game flows
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If the game ends up having mbs, my random clueless guess is that games will play out like this.
Early game build orders make a big difference, almost like zvz.
Micro going on for 5 minutes, possibly to secure an expo.
Players start to macro, first to 200/200 wins (estimated build time 2 minutes)
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very nice loved the article XD
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Great read. I agree with you 100%.
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Klackon stop to troll please. Even a D+ noob can see if an attack is coming, and that mutas pwn speedlots. But July had also the mechanics to beat it whereas the D+ noob can't and will lose all his mutas to a storm or an archon.
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On November 03 2008 03:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
And 3 hat muta> expand> lurkers > defilers is NOT strategy. It's just how the game flows
u might be joking please, u are saying that hat muta> expand> lurkers > defilers is game flow?
so funny, u are saying that these actions are spontaneous then?
no progamer ever joins a battle without a plan in his mind, without knowing what to do if something happens.
U just made an epic fail, first u say that starcraft is mechanics , now u say that its spontaneous "flow"
/joke
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God guys plz stop derailing this...
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On November 03 2008 03:09 Boblion wrote:
Klackon stop to troll please. Even a D+ noob can see if an attack is coming, and that mutas pwn speedlots. But July had also the mechanics to beat it whereas the D+ noob can't and will lose all his mutas to a storm or an archon.
-_- The attack was a goon/temp timing attack that came way, way later than a normal speedlot attack. (Which I also stated in my post) As I said rekrul was amazed, and well his understanding of this game surpasses yours by quite a margin.
You still haven't adressed the fact that nony couldn't even get out of early game without beeing disadvantadged against july.
Or for that matter that nony himself in this thread said that strategy plays a huge roll in high levels of bw.
If you truly are soo caught up in your C- skill that you think you understand the nuances of this game as well as pros then I don't know what to say. I guess I will have to wait for someone (Testie please??) to come flame you.
Because well, your stupidity is so mindblowing that it deserves a decent flame.
The guy above me has a point I'm afraid, >< Continue this via pm?
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On November 03 2008 03:02 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2008 02:54 Boblion wrote:
Having flawless timing and execution isnt my definition of strategy. And 3 hat muta> expand> lurkers > defilers is NOT strategy. It's just how the game flows
tbh I didn't even read anything else you said but if you're serious about this then I'm glad I didn't.
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On November 03 2008 03:22 KlaCkoN wrote:
The guy above me has a point I'm afraid, >< Continue this via pm?
I dont have time to waste sorry.
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Shame you didn't include the protoss concept keyboard for sc2
![[image loading]](http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1312/protosskeyboardsmul4.jpg)
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Netherlands19141 Posts
Haha Agu, so awsome! Great job :o.
IntoTheLOL!!!
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What Nony wrote here is in contrast to what Artosis wrote in a somewhat recent thread (about the ability to follow the most solid standard build orders and great mechanics being the most important thing).
Also, progamers often gamble with BOs, that is definitely true, we see some really crazy openings sometimes which rarely make sense, and it's all because they think they can get away with it (because they hope the opponent doesn't think they'd do that particular BO). It's basically a blind guess, although TL users will call this amazing psychological tricks.
TL users might confuse BO gambling with having ingenious strategy (but only if a progamer is doing it).
But really, strategy is incredibly shallow in SC. Tactics, on the other hand, is *theoretically* complex in SC, but in practice it's also quite shallow (but still a lot deeper than strategy) since the high speed forces the players to only do the absolutely most important tasks and ignore a lot of other tasks which *could* give them an advantage *if* they had additional time for them, but since they do not, they are ignored in favor of the more important tasks. Unfortunately though, the most important tasks are rather shallow ("clicky macro" (I like that term) and all related stuff ... all part of mechanics, which the spectators also don't see (another negative aspect)).
And these discussions are always running into a dead end anyway since players will only listen to who is the most skilled player at this very moment. Which is the reason why gameplay discussion on TL is so goddamn awful - players don't use common sense, don't use intelligence, don't use good arguments to discuss gameplay - they just look at how skilled the player who's arguing is at this very moment, not realizing that a lot of gameplay discussion is unrelated to skill (best example: the Blizzard employees, they're all SC noobs, but know a shit ton more about gameplay than any wannabe here from TL)
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u will keep writing shit here for decades,
none cares
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It's not crap (it's the Truth™) and most care since these discussions always grow fairly long. Plus, I still haven't been banned yet although I'm the only one here constantly criticizing SC1 (which is actually blasphemy on this site). Which is really kind of amazing, because trolls are banned instantly here, and there are a lot of banned users.
It almost makes me think that the mods are actually smart enough to realize that a lot of what I write is true. Almost... I've kinda lost hope that there's someone else here other than delusional fanbois who think that everything about SC1 is amazing, even its obvious flaws.
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Just wanna say that I'm SC:BW big noob and when I play with my noobish friends online or at the office, we actually enjoy SPLITTING SCVs and MACROING because that's the kind of details that make us feel "hey I'm doing like the pros kekeke". And that's what SC is all about. So Blizzard should stop thinking noobs don't like "learning", that's part of the relationship with the game.
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eVEYTIME you use MBS, a kitten dies 
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EPT
