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On November 04 2008 17:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2008 14:48 hunter3 wrote:On November 04 2008 14:23 FrozenArbiter wrote:
We want the optimal balance of usability and competitive suitability. Evolution is only positive if it actually makes the game better - I don't think you want to play a game where you don't have to actually do anything anymore than I want to play Dune. I'll agree with that. I didn't realize my arguments have already been made; I avoid the SC2 forums like the plague. Let's just wait and see... wait and see and them have them fundamentally alter the game after releasing the beta? better idea: think rationally and avoid the problems to begin with.
I'm not totally in disagreement with you, but I have to say that is what betas are for lol. Theres no better time in fact, because its hard to know how many of their changes will work in the aggregate player population. And this isn't just in theory either - Blizzard in particular is known for not being afraid of making major changes during beta. They have no obligations to their beta populace to have the game be stable or balanced or anything - its the beta players that have the obligation to prove that the game IS unstable or unbalanced. That said, I wouldn't exactly be upset if MBS was out before beta, lol.
On November 04 2008 19:21 TheFlashyOne wrote:
i kinda lost all my energies by being so vocally anti-MBS (or any Easy-mode feature). I do have faith in Blizzard. Intuitively, adding any one of these features will beat the crap out of competitive SC2 + the fun element . In the crazy turn of events that the game still plays great, i'll be the happiest guy. If not, my faith in Blizzard tells me that they'll fix it right after the beta period or during the early patches. Blizzard is known for their continuous and tireless game-changing tweaks and won't like the idea of having an inferior game out...especially one that is supposed to defend the prestige of the SC brand. I can sleep in peace.
Now I think you're in the same boat as me. I have faith in Blizzard that if its broken, it will be fixed. If they want this game to be an e-sport (which their dedicated e-sports team would argue is the case) they will do whatever is necessary to achieve that. If contrary to all our common knowledge, it still manages to be a competitive game, that's great too. I have total confidence in the end result, even if I'm not sure of that path Blizzard takes there.
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I'm not totally in disagreement with you, but I have to say that is what betas are for lol. Theres no better time in fact, because its hard to know how many of their changes will work in the aggregate player population. And this isn't just in theory either - Blizzard in particular is known for not being afraid of making major changes during beta. They have no obligations to their beta populace to have the game be stable or balanced or anything - its the beta players that have the obligation to prove that the game IS unstable or unbalanced. That said, I wouldn't exactly be upset if MBS was out before beta, lol.
willing or not major changes are inconvenient, and when it is this obvious that something is bad theres no need to test it.
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On November 04 2008 19:40 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +I'm not totally in disagreement with you, but I have to say that is what betas are for lol. Theres no better time in fact, because its hard to know how many of their changes will work in the aggregate player population. And this isn't just in theory either - Blizzard in particular is known for not being afraid of making major changes during beta. They have no obligations to their beta populace to have the game be stable or balanced or anything - its the beta players that have the obligation to prove that the game IS unstable or unbalanced. That said, I wouldn't exactly be upset if MBS was out before beta, lol. willing or not major changes are inconvenient, and when it is this obvious that something is bad theres no need to test it.
Thats kinda like saying that because of the polls for Obama, we shouldn't actually hold the election. Its ridiculously likely that the popular consensus will hold true and the actual voting will have been a waste of time and money, but its still worth doing.
In SC2, it will reaffirm suspicions to put that theory and small scale testing (polling) to an extended and expanded beta-style test (election day)
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If SC2 ships with MBS and automining there will likely be a custom mod that removes them.
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On November 04 2008 19:50 geno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2008 19:40 IdrA wrote:I'm not totally in disagreement with you, but I have to say that is what betas are for lol. Theres no better time in fact, because its hard to know how many of their changes will work in the aggregate player population. And this isn't just in theory either - Blizzard in particular is known for not being afraid of making major changes during beta. They have no obligations to their beta populace to have the game be stable or balanced or anything - its the beta players that have the obligation to prove that the game IS unstable or unbalanced. That said, I wouldn't exactly be upset if MBS was out before beta, lol. willing or not major changes are inconvenient, and when it is this obvious that something is bad theres no need to test it. Thats kinda like saying that because of the polls for Obama, we shouldn't actually hold the election. Its ridiculously likely that the popular consensus will hold true and the actual voting will have been a waste of time and money, but its still worth doing. In SC2, it will reaffirm suspicions to put that theory and small scale testing (polling) to an extended and expanded beta-style test (election day)
no, its like saying every informed, intelligent person believes obama will be a significantly better president so we should not let mccain take power for a few months, just to try it out.
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On November 04 2008 20:45 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2008 19:50 geno wrote:On November 04 2008 19:40 IdrA wrote:I'm not totally in disagreement with you, but I have to say that is what betas are for lol. Theres no better time in fact, because its hard to know how many of their changes will work in the aggregate player population. And this isn't just in theory either - Blizzard in particular is known for not being afraid of making major changes during beta. They have no obligations to their beta populace to have the game be stable or balanced or anything - its the beta players that have the obligation to prove that the game IS unstable or unbalanced. That said, I wouldn't exactly be upset if MBS was out before beta, lol. willing or not major changes are inconvenient, and when it is this obvious that something is bad theres no need to test it. Thats kinda like saying that because of the polls for Obama, we shouldn't actually hold the election. Its ridiculously likely that the popular consensus will hold true and the actual voting will have been a waste of time and money, but its still worth doing. In SC2, it will reaffirm suspicions to put that theory and small scale testing (polling) to an extended and expanded beta-style test (election day) no, its like saying every informed, intelligent person believes obama will be a significantly better president so we should not let mccain take power for a few months, just to try it out.
I think a lot of the more vocal supporters (people outside the campaign) actually would say that, lol. The most intelligent for sure wouldn't, but those two things don't always coincide (before anyone gets mad - both sides have these types; I'm not going to willingly turn an already volatile MBS thread into a dangerously scary hybrid poltical/MBS thread). And I think a beta is a lot more like a presidential campaign than a few months of the actual presidency.
So I think my original analogy was actually more accurate but I also feel like this is a rather stupid and pointless facet of the issue for me to be arguing in the first place so I'll drop it.
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According to the poll we all agree with the article, though I'd say not all, at least not me breathe SC:BW.
Nowdays i only play casually and rarely, but still the thing that had and has me coming to SC:BW all this years is the challenging gameplay that is easy to learn, hard to master!
I think we all love a game where we can be challanged in every mean: strategicly, tacticly, mentally and physicly and SC:BW provides that to the fullest potential!
The thing about MBS though is that I am prepared to give it a brake if things like auto-mine, multiple rally-points and smart-casting is removed!
I think SC2 has enough potential to cover-up for MBS easyness as long as the previosly mentioned options I mentioned are removed!
One thing is to make 1 sacrifice to make the game easier(such as MBS), but another when there are a lot options/mechanics that make the game easier(smart-cast, auto-mine, etc...)!
I think the focus should be made towards reaching out to the SC2 developers to remove the other automations rather than MBS.
With other automations removed and MBS in the game, the core skill celling will stay, but it will make the action faster for casual players who can now build units faster, while better players will still have an advantage through mechanics like warp-in, queens laying additional eggs for zerg and things like that!
Overall though the devs will need to make a sacrifice from the easy game and remove some of the stuff, just as they made huge sacrifice by removing all of the skill celling that was in SC:BW!
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On November 04 2008 21:06 SlickR12345 wrote:
According to the poll we all agree with the article, though I'd say not all, at least not me breathe SC:BW.
Nowdays i only play casually and rarely, but still the thing that had and has me coming to SC:BW all this years is the challenging gameplay that is easy to learn, hard to master!
I think we all love a game where we can be challanged in every mean: strategicly, tacticly, mentally and physicly and SC:BW provides that to the fullest potential!
The thing about MBS though is that I am prepared to give it a brake if things like auto-mine, multiple rally-points and smart-casting is removed!
I think SC2 has enough potential to cover-up for MBS easyness as long as the previosly mentioned options I mentioned are removed!
One thing is to make 1 sacrifice to make the game easier(such as MBS), but another when there are a lot options/mechanics that make the game easier(smart-cast, auto-mine, etc...)!
I think the focus should be made towards reaching out to the SC2 developers to remove the other automations rather than MBS.
With other automations removed and MBS in the game, the core skill celling will stay, but it will make the action faster for casual players who can now build units faster, while better players will still have an advantage through mechanics like warp-in, queens laying additional eggs for zerg and things like that!
Overall though the devs will need to make a sacrifice from the easy game and remove some of the stuff, just as they made huge sacrifice by removing all of the skill celling that was in SC:BW!
The poll is rigged for both options to vote yes.
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This game is all about how many units you have and how you use them.
If you overextend your micro, your macro will be flawed.
How flawed it will be depends on how good the player is.
There is nothing boring about macro.
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protoss is so easy that there are none in the 4 alltime bonjwa list..
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i dont know if anybody has suggested this, cause i dont read the sc2 forums
but why not just have
Battle.net servers (mbs) for the newbies and people who just wanna chillout and play $$$$$$FASTEST MAP EVER POSSIBLE NO RUSH 50MIN $$$$$
Ladder Battle.net servers (no mbs and whatever other bullshit they put)
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On November 04 2008 22:05 mIsUZu wrote:
protoss is so easy that there are none in the 4 alltime bonjwa list..
eccentrics
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On November 04 2008 23:00 Imagination wrote:
i dont know if anybody has suggested this, cause i dont read the sc2 forums
but why not just have
Battle.net servers (mbs) for the newbies and people who just wanna chillout and play $$$$$$FASTEST MAP EVER POSSIBLE NO RUSH 50MIN $$$$$
Ladder Battle.net servers (no mbs and whatever other bullshit they put)
It's been suggested before, quite often actually.
What would Blizzard balance the game for? There are still plenty of competitive players who DO WANT those automations, mainly to-be-ex-WC3 players who are going to switch to SC2.
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EPT
