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As a C- protoss myself there is no way I can believe the crap your spewing. Your friends beat you because they are better than you, not because they are protoss. APM is no measure of skill.
Remember that OSL game between July and Best? Maybe you've seen it, because in that game July made it look straight up imba the way he denied Best's corsair/reaver, and then straight up dominated him when he made the switch back into a ground army.
I stopped taking this seriously when you said you get beat by D- protoss's.. I mean seriously, those are the nubs that barely know their build order timings and have no idea what hot keys are. And complaining that 8 corsairs is imbalanced just means you have no idea what the fuck to do about it.
I believe there is a strategy forum, if you look to the left of the main page and scroll down a bit, you'll see it, and I'm sure there are alot of other "C" Zergs with your same problem.
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On August 23 2008 04:05 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on! and what do protosses do against mass mutalisks without sairs or high templar? Throw sticks? your premises are so flawed it's not even funny. If you were really a C level zerg, you would not lose to D- level protosses. Period. They won't have the macro/micro/multitasking/pretty much anything, that a C level has. Go practice, 5 pool every game. Maybe people will complain about zvp imba then. ^^;;
lol
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On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
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I'm a D level zerg and I beat 8 D- level protoss players at the same time no problem with my monitor off and 1 hand tied behind my back. You can't even have 9 people playing starcraft at the same time.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm pretty sure this is a joke thread, but if it isn't I lol'd anyways.
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On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Great suggestions. I'd also remove zealots, reavers, dts and goons. Those units are just imba.
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On August 23 2008 04:07 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on! Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers. I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
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On August 23 2008 04:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 04:07 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on! Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers. I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced. BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is. BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
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On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling.
Oh shit, here come the Men in Red, kicking it Big Chillie Style.
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wow
2 years ago there were tons of threads by protoss saying how pcz was basically unwinnable
now its reversed hahahah
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On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded.
If your doing that it's obvious why you would lose to a D- protoss....you cant take air superiority with 100 scourges, if you are really intent on taking down that group of corsairs clone your scourges and send them in while the sairs are attacking a couple mutas, or even when they are hitting your ovies if you think you can handle it. And if you were saying that 'just as an example' its a pretty stupid example then.
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Man, fuck Ultralisks.
And GOGO ANYTIME.
And no, stupid guy above me, YOO STOOPID. July demonstrated how to use just scourge. Zergs recently have been making a lot more scourge if you noticed.
Savior even opened with like spire => 6 scourge recently, etc.
Scourge hydra ling lurker is fuckn IMBAAAAAAaaaaaaaa
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Wait
Why are you playing D- protoss players on iccup if you're a C rank Zerg user? Now that just don't make no sense!
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On August 23 2008 04:12 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 04:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 04:07 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on! Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers. I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced. BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is. BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself. BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
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On August 23 2008 04:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 04:12 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 04:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 04:07 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on! Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers. I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced. BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is. BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself. BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU Now where's Rekrul when you need him... So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer. He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
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On August 23 2008 03:22 Gaetele wrote:
In ZvP, Corsairs just fly around and snipe your Overlords, destroying any sort of sight you have.
But not after having seen exactly what they are doing and being able to counter or trick them perfectly.
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On August 23 2008 04:19 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 04:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 04:12 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 04:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 04:07 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
[quote]
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on! Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers. I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced. BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is. BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself. BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU Now where's Rekrul when you need him... So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer. He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus. Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
YEAH IM SO JEALOUS. THIS IS THE ONLY REASON WHY I COULD EVER THINK BOXER IS ANYTHING LESS THAN PERFECT OMG
Good logic. Go back to Middle School.
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My ZvP on ICCUP is consistently horrible. I figure the mu is reasonably balanced, but there're fundamental differences between how zvp works and how zvt and zvz work, and I lack the fundamentals necessary to win. It's hard to pin down the differences, because I have fundamental flaws in my ZvT and ZvZ play as well, but if I were to guess at the fundamental differences, I'd say that in ZvT and ZvZ, units die fast on both sides of the MU, in ZvP protoss units live for a long time, and a few well placed storms/scarabs destroy entire zerg armies if the zerg isn't paying enough attention. This dynamic is true in harass as well as straight up battles. Now, I'd love to blame my zvp record on imba, but just looking at the records of other ICCUP D zergs, I have to conclude that the problem is me, not the mu or even the maps. If I could find a step-by-step process to filling the holes in my game, I'd follow it in a heartbeat... but as far as I know, nothing like that exists, so I'll just continue to struggle to figure it out.
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Saying that groups of 8+ Corsairs are unfair is just ridiculous, sry. Either, you just don't let their numbers grow to that point by scourging them continuously or you have 25+ Scourges ready by the time they reach that number and then clone your Scourges properly. You said you were around 300+ APM, this shouldn't be hard to pull off for you then. And it's the same principle with High Templars and Storm as well. If you are as fast as you claim to be, you'd be very well able to dodge his Storms and save some of your Hydras.
It all just doesn't add up, the way I see it. Either your game is flawed to some degree, in which case you need to improve. If you claim it isn't, you shouldn't be having problems, since Koreans don't have them as well..
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EPT
