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320 apm.
He said two of them combined is less than half. So technically he's at least 321.
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On August 23 2008 03:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote:
Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever. Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks.
On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!? it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion.
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If you're losing to D- Protoss and you're a C zerg, I'm wondering how. I understand people have different weak matchups, but if you can do ZvT and ZvZ pretty competently, I think you can learn larva management and the timings to rip every D- Protoss apart with ease.
Maybe you should play some Protoss vs Zerg to get an idea of how the other side of the fence feels. I know with me I was initially a lot better at ZvP, and that helped me get decent a PvZ, which in turn helped my ZvP...
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On August 23 2008 03:32 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote:
Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever. Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks. Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!? it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build. You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion.
Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7.
It's the same thing, really.
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On August 23 2008 03:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:32 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote:
Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever. Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks. On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!? it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build. You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion. Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7. It's the same thing, really.
Maybe you would find more "lucky builds" and "counters to lucky builds" if you played 12 hours a day. I don't know if you're seriously contending these points or are just ignorant.
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On August 23 2008 03:37 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:32 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote:
Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever. Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks. On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!? it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build. You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion. Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7. It's the same thing, really. Maybe you would find more "lucky builds" and "counters to lucky builds" if you played 12 hours a day. I don't know if you're seriously contending these points or are just ignorant.
A player who is winning off of a clever build every game, and it's the same build, then later can't adapt is a player who I don't see as skilled.
|
I'm A D level zerg, and I find it muuuuch easier to beat protoss than to beat terran. I think my winrate against protoss is like, twice what I have against Terran.
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Calgary25991 Posts
On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're
out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time
maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of
relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see
all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really
cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level,
all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are
shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk
some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of
b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people
outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people
of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to
the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my
school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
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On August 23 2008 03:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:37 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:32 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote:
Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever. Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks. On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!? it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build. You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion. Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7. It's the same thing, really. Maybe you would find more "lucky builds" and "counters to lucky builds" if you played 12 hours a day. I don't know if you're seriously contending these points or are just ignorant. A player who is winning off of a clever build every game, and it's the same build, then later can't adapt is a player who I don't see as skilled.
There is more to winning than having a "clever build," seeing as how Flash and Bisu have both won games lately. And I'm sure you think Savior is incredibly skilled, but he lost a lot with the same build. Now he's won a few again.
There's confidence, builds, mind games, opponents confidence, and probably other things. If what you're claiming is "Bisu and Flash are not skilled players," than I think anybody who seriously thought about it would disagree with you.
Bisu doesn't always do FE -> Sair/DT, so it's not always the same build. Just because he fast expands doesn't mean it's the same build every time.
And Flash doesn't always 14cc, but unfortunately for him he has been lately. His 3-0 Stork didn't involve his fast double armories, and he still won. I think the players realize they can't be 1 trick ponies.
I know the least about Zerg openings but to me it seems Jaedong does a lot of similar builds and wins all the time, and he has been for a while now. He doesn't come up with new amazing ridiculous builds for every game.
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Chill: I agree talking about D-level foreigner play and Progamers doesn't really prove anything, but, I have certainly lost to C level Zergs before and am a D level Protoss, so I think the premise of Gaetele's argument is flawed, or he is exaggerating. Why would he even be playing D- Protoss when he's C?
If I sound angry, it's because everyone's arguments in this thread are retarded.
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On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
I'm chill. Everyone else is attacking me. Good observation powers, o holy admin.
But on a lighter note, I agree that people need to stop comparing everyone to Korean pros. None of us will ever be this good, so it's irrelevant.
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How are you losing to D- protosses? I'm a no skill C level protoss that easy-modes his way to C rank by a moving PvT every season, and even my ZvP can beat D- protosses easily.
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Dealer
Sweden1368 Posts
On August 23 2008 03:31 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs. When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me. + Show Spoiler +Sair Reaver is not easy, or even a good build unless you're already an incredible player
I beat a D- Toss without using the keyboard, and i havent played this game for years.
|
Haha, you are hilarious. Wait, you are serious?
|
United States10774 Posts
This thread is stupid. Like everyone said you are not a C player if you lose to D- protoss. The game is balanced. Practice and get better.
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On August 23 2008 03:56 Dealer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:31 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs. When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me. + Show Spoiler +Sair Reaver is not easy, or even a good build unless you're already an incredible player I beat a D- Toss without using the keyboard, and i havent played this game for years.
Well thats easy. D- Protoss can be anywhere from some major fundamental problems to no understanding of the game at all. If I were to let someone play for the first time they would be considered D- if nothing else.
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On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be
a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a
couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level
of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer,
who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it
were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely
up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like,
to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't
good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is
started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a
trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers
in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the
neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
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On August 23 2008 03:56 Dealer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:31 Ancestral wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs. When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me. + Show Spoiler +Sair Reaver is not easy, or even a good build unless you're already an incredible player I beat a D- Toss without using the keyboard, and i havent played this game for years.
lol, beat one without using a mouse or a touchpad and I'll give you a dollar. ^^
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On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote:On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran. Who cares? Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time. You are a very angry young man. Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog. I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for. ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter. Enjoy flaming me. Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy. You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious. Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts. On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg
Jaedong
Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders.
Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game ....
Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P)
Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players? When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance. Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community. No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful. Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine. My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
and what do protosses do against mass mutalisks without sairs or high templar? Throw sticks?
your premises are so flawed it's not even funny. If you were really a C level zerg, you would not lose to D- level protosses. Period. They won't have the macro/micro/multitasking/pretty much anything, that a C level has.
Go practice, 5 pool every game. Maybe people will complain about zvp imba then. ^^;;
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Terrans just don't understand.
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EPT
