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Me and my friend were arguing the other day about which race being the HARDEST to master at the INTERMEDIATE level... He believes it is terran while i believe it is zerg
His arguement simply contains the fact that they are not mobile and that they have to keep a fully focused eye around their base to watch out for harass and have to macro while micro at the same time.
I believe it is zerg simply because at the intermediate level, zergs must be able to micro their units (generally weaker then terrans) and macro in order to rebuild if zerg had lost their units... not only that , they must learn how to expand as well as defend the expansions.
Question to all tl.net posters, which race is the hardest to play/master?
Poll: Hardest race?
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Terran
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Intermediate - terran
pro level - zerg
my five cents.
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Terran, i'm a zerg player, i play ZvP, ZvT and TvZ, and i must admit Terran is the hardest one from all the races.
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On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:
Me and my friend were arguing the other day about which race being the HARDEST to master at the INTERMEDIATE level... He believes it is terran while i believe it is zerg
I'm a bit confused by the question. If you are at an intermediate level, then surely you have not mastered it, right?
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Well it depends what you mean by "intermediate level" i suppose... but I think almost everyone would agree that terran requires faster handspeed, if nothing else.
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I'm gunna have to say terran, because it's a pain to learn the different timing windows. I also found terran macro harder, instead of 5z6z7z8z9z0z on your hatches or whatnot.
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On May 15 2008 00:50 Heggie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:
Me and my friend were arguing the other day about which race being the HARDEST to master at the INTERMEDIATE level... He believes it is terran while i believe it is zerg
I'm a bit confused by the question. If you are at an intermediate level, then surely you have not mastered it, right?
im saying hardest race to get good at.
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z or t definitely.
you could teach a monkey to play p
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On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:the HARDEST to master at the INTERMEDIATE level...
Because of the idiocy of that statement... I chose protoss.
Cuz obv, only stupid Z and T players make such bad statements.
And cuz Spore Sunken Lurker Crackling.. what's so hard about that???
And mass tanks is too ez.
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On May 15 2008 00:50 Heggie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:
Me and my friend were arguing the other day about which race being the HARDEST to master at the INTERMEDIATE level... He believes it is terran while i believe it is zerg
I'm a bit confused by the question. If you are at an intermediate level, then surely you have not mastered it, right?
Didn't notice that when I answered, but I guess we can interpret this as:
"playing at a tactical and strategic sound level with the mechanics this entails and get consistent results against opponents of similar level.." or something.
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Trinidad/Tobago1177 Posts
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monkeys do not play P -_-
you see them warping in anything?
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i think T would be the hardest race to play.
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its certainly not fucking protoss
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Master? Intermediate? What the, can you please not confuse the hell out of me?
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United States5262 Posts
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
what's with all the newbies crying about how easy protoss supposedly is? see it everywhere all of a sudden...
at a very low level terran is the hardest, depending on how low you choose to define "intermediate" as it could still be.
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On May 15 2008 00:50 Heggie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:
Me and my friend were arguing the other day about which race being the HARDEST to master at the INTERMEDIATE level... He believes it is terran while i believe it is zerg
I'm a bit confused by the question. If you are at an intermediate level, then surely you have not mastered it, right?
lol im inclined to agree with this 200% failure for poll question 
But to answer the question w/ out being a dick: Terran is definitely the hardest race. Just for the fact that the they cant set the pace of a game - specifically early game which makes it harder for intermediate players imo
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has to be z. mechanics is not enough to be rapish with z. mistakes fuck u up so bad with zerg. i lost fucking 1 overlord at a critical period and couljdn't make my lurkers and got raped. its just hard with z man 
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ever try to break 30 tanks with vults being a protoss player?? or micro out of dark swarm?? e.e...
:p protoss is the hardest to master
drievan showed us a beautiful display of near perfection O_O
or i was mondragons lack of play..idk? either way i feel protoss is the hardest to master
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Random is hardest imo.
For me, i am just 10 times terrible at Zerg compared to terran. So, Zerg is the hardest for me.
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Im not exactly a good player but I play both protoss and terran.... I could say its almost impossible for me to break a terran ball.. my reaver micro is shit bad, so are my storms =P. Although using terran I have a more decent chance of winning using siege tanks paired with either vults or gollies... move your army to opponents base, siege... ez win. I can't TvZ because controlling MnMs is a lot harder. So in my opinion... the hardest to master would probably be either terran TvZ since you have to control a shit load of units and protoss TvP since breaking the ball is almost impossible. Just my 2 cents.
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protoss might be "easy" to play but if you know how to counter it we get walked over at low level.
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hmm, depends a bit...
Terran mechanics are clearly the hardest. macro from 2459656 buildings while having to baby-sit every single unit you have or insta-gg. All that while trying to fit those huge suply depots in some corner of your base...
Zerg however has the constant drone-or-unit decision that will win or lose most games for you. Terran builds scvs from the ccs, and units from the rax/factories, easy.
Reaction speed is kinda important for both. Zerg units die fast as hell if you accidentaly move them into the enemy or get caught unawares, but that is true for mnm vs lurks as well, and sieging tanks etc.
Toss has nothing.  Basically no hard mechanics required (yes you CAN do fancy things with a reaver, but its not required), macro is easy as hell (1 drone builds 4 small pylons in no time etc) and you can more or less move command you entire army straight into the enemy and not notice it in 30 seconds and you will still be ok.
Yes, I lose a lot to toss, and im bitter about it.
And I think I will vote terran, but it is close.
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On May 15 2008 01:18 8Pylon wrote:
:p protoss is the hardest to master
LMAO
Z/T are the hardest because they are ten times more fragile than P, if you leave your units unattended for 1 second you can lose every single one of them to a storm or reaver.
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backflash....backflash...backflash
I had to check the date multiple times because i was shure i read some answers before.
T fo me
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zerg is the hardest to play. Easy to think about but the mechanics are a lot harder then T and P.
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protoss is the hardest
because you have to stop yourself dying of total boredom
teehee?
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I don't whether there should be a question like this?
Is this just to satisfy egocentric terrans or to make zerg feel more precious?
Hardness P=Z and Terran is highly above both, since:
1. Terran has most range units
2. Terran must master Repair ability
3. Terran has many heavy micro eating units - vultures,m&ms...
4. Terran Plays differently in all matchups, unlike P and Z, they use same units and similar micro techniques in all (probably except ZvZ)
And just to defend protoss, ever heard of zerg monkey mondragon who beated 90% toss on Blue storm with fisrt 12 speedlings...
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OP, you need to remake the poll, and define exactly what "intermediate" is so we can properly vote/have a discussion about it. Is it top foreigners just below pro level? Is it someone who knows all the hot keys, and has around 130 APM? Something else?
I'll try to answer in what way I can: As a random player for quite awhile, I find certain matchups harder than others, but not races. And I've also found that whenever using Terran in a normal length game, my APM is higher with them in comparison to other races, so hand speed is not really the question, because APM only increases because you have more things to do. I would note though that in short, maybe scrappy games, my Zerg APM is much higher, from trying to keep a Zergling alive and harassing in their main as long as possible, to muta micro, and other high movement oriented play.
As far as what's most difficult... It really depends on your style on the builds you use. When SKTerran becomes a necessity, TvZ can get very difficult once a Zerg figures out all they need to do is get 3 gas Defilers to abuse your unkorean skills. Unless you already have a big advantage from the early-mid game, you're in a lot of trouble, especially when you're still worrying about where exactly you're supposed to put all your buildings (which can take a long time to figure out, if the chance of playing this matchup is only 1 in 9, lol). However, playing a tech Terran, fast wraith into lots of tanks and a few m'm, is very easy and pretty much rapes Zerg at lower levels, so you don't really need to be skilled at all in that case.
Honestly, if I really thought one race was the hardest, I'd go baller and choose them as my main race, but as a random player, I feel like I'm pretty much equally skilled with all races, thought maybe better at some builds, better against some builds. So I don't know, if you want to define me as intermediate (180 APM, know all hotkeys, groups units and buildings, knows a fairly diverse number of builds, knows basic counters at least in early game, has some amount of game sense for things like cheese, scouts well), then your answer is that no race is harder than any other race.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Definatly Zerg and then Terran.
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toss is difficult because
a) you are the responder - you need to understand the other 2 races aswell as your own, otherwise you insta lose.
this applies to more than just scouting and builds and timing and unit mix and attacking/defending
b) you might think toss micro is "easier" because there are less uits, but a single mistake (shuttle, goons to mines) will cost you the game. this is also true of macro (especially early game).
if you have a single one less unit than you should have at a certain time then gg. T might not give a shit if he has 3 rines instead of 4 with his vult and tank, but if toss´s single goon is late or in the wrong place then gg
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oh, I thought the poll was which race was harder to play against for you. ZvP is annoying for me because protoss have it so damn easy in comparison. So I voted for P when it should be Z.
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Anyone who thinks Protoss is harder to learn then Terran or Zerg clearly has not played Terran or Zerg.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.
TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.
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z for sure played both z and t
but toss never!
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
On May 15 2008 01:18 8Pylon wrote:
ever try to break 30 tanks with vults being a protoss player?? or micro out of dark swarm?? e.e...
:p protoss is the hardest to master
drievan showed us a beautiful display of near perfection O_O
or i was mondragons lack of play..idk? either way i feel protoss is the hardest to master
OLOLOLOLOLLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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Terran is hard to play due to the need to babysit units, but spidermines and seige tanks are so insane that this makes up for it pretty quick.
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Zerg.
(mostly taking about me)
you always low on drone.
never enough larva but no $ to make hatch T_T
throw your swarn at an awfull place and you get raped
Lurker borrow to far away or get raped because they are still unborrow :<
God z is hard
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black. It's tough being black.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
sub pro level terran is the hardest to master. anyone who says otherwise is wrong. at the pro level im not sure but i am sure its not protoss.
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i agree actually, dark swarm just 1 click rape for the z.... toss has to micro like hell every single unit just to get out of the way (and you know how annoying goons can be)
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Terran without question at the intermediate level and zerg at pro, yes.
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On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down....
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill...
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On May 15 2008 03:35 perisie xx wrote:
i agree actually, dark swarm just 1 click rape for the z.... toss has to micro like hell every single unit just to get out of the way (and you know how annoying goons can be)
If you can't move your protoss control groups away from a dark swarm, you must be a huge noob and if you played other races beside protoss you would get raped even harder.
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Ok. I am going to refrain from using the whole "they are all balanced" cliche. Well, not all of the way.
They are balanced, but it's still like comparing apples to oranges. Depending on how you play, some people may be better with one race... or with all of them. I play Zerg, it's what works easiest for me. With that said I say TERRAN is the hardest race, because you have a lot less leeway with your micro/macro. Being the "middle" race gives them infinite strength (look at all the Terran masters), but not unless they do everything exactly right. Zerg often times can lose units (from mis-micro) and get away with it (by pumping lots of units duh). Toss does not usually need to manage as many numbers of units (because of the higher PSI rating on average per unit) and is more able to focus on macro a bit more, building their base, thinking about pylon/cannon placement, whatever (especially even MORE gosu micro). A toss player may disagree, but having shields/hps is pretty damn nifty.
Terran is completely in the middle. Their units have average hps, average supply costs... etc. The rewards are incredible when put into the hands of a Boxer or Nada, Oov. Flash...?
All races are difficult to master because of how finely balanced they are, but I believe the most challenging yet rewarding race is Terran. I like playing Zerg because, well, the Zerg are badass.
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On May 15 2008 03:12 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 01:18 8Pylon wrote:
ever try to break 30 tanks with vults being a protoss player?? or micro out of dark swarm?? e.e...
:p protoss is the hardest to master
drievan showed us a beautiful display of near perfection O_O
or i was mondragons lack of play..idk? either way i feel protoss is the hardest to master OLOLOLOLOLLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
QFT
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T by far, and I'm a T player too heyyyyyyy
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United States7166 Posts
On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.
TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.
eh INC while I agree TvZ is probably the most technically difficult matchup in the game, it's also the 'strong mu' for T, with T being the natural counter to Z (more-so than P is to T as you mentioned). While all you said is true, there are loads of technical advantages terrans have over zerg in this matchup as well.. simply because the zerg units are just so weak in this matchup, more so than any other matchup in the game.
And I disagree with the 'cant A move against just about anything zerg throws at you' part. there are tons of situations you can simply a-move (well, after stimming + maybe a scan). and I would say that there are just as many 'cant just A move' situations for zerg as well in that matchup.. mutalisks you rarely want to do that and is considerably more technically difficult imo than something like marines vs lurkers. i never had to practice marine micro maps before, it's just something that's pretty logical/simple.. spread out and drag lurker fire with the first marine.. and it's usually really not a big deal to lose some marines anyway due to mis-micro.. they are so cheap and abundant while gas is much more precious to zerg obviously (not to mention larvae as well).
And that's just mutas.. what about other units? When can you just A-move as zerg? that's only if your army somehow completely overpowers the one you're fighting. take for example a group of m&m attacking a zerg expo. unless the zerg already has lurkers there, who has the easier mechanical aspect? how hard is it to stim as lurker/lings come in and then run back as the lurkers burrow? now the marines are safe again until the zerg tries to burrow again. sure eventually the lurker will be near the hatchery and so the marines have a harder time hitting it, but i wouldnt say it was any easier for terrans here than zerg.
And then defilers. They are extremely difficult to use and just harder all around than vessels are for terran, and dont have any use when massed unlike vessels. Using scourge to kill vessels protected my marines is imo just slightly harder than it is for the vessels to take out defilers who are protected by scourge (and possibly hydras)... but what is the 'finishing blow' is that the terran is constantly producing vessels while the zerg is not doing the same with defilers.. and eventually the vessel count just becomes big while zerg is still just trying to maintain a constant 1-2 defilers at each base/army.
Then you also add in the fact that T can spam SCVs while Z cannot just spam drones, along with the fact that minerals are much less useful to Z than they are to T in this MU...then add in how cost-effective marines/medics are in this matchup.. (I'm confident nothing else in the game is close to being this cost-effective).
All lead into how I wouldn't say T is the definite harder race to play in this MU. T is highly technical but stronger as well.. while Z is definitely less but also weaker.
And then TvT vs ZvZ..comeon the two are nothing alike. TvT is almost like a game of chess + macro while ZvZ is like no other matchup whatsoever... requires so much finesse/feel/understanding/experience/control.. it requires a skillset unlike any other matchup. It's such a low-economy game..never has each worker become so precious.. and never can you lose a game so quickly and easily. It's different enough that I'd say it's harder than TvT..but this is certainly arguable.
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On May 15 2008 03:35 perisie xx wrote:
i agree actually, dark swarm just 1 click rape for the z.... toss has to micro like hell every single unit just to get out of the way (and you know how annoying goons can be)
At this point i'm not sure if you're trolling or not.
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i hate that toss never qualifies as one of the hardest! Seriously tho if it was from someones point of view who never played sc, Any race would be as easy and hard to learn as the next. Since you would addapt to any problems that race has over the course of time. So Protoss dont lose ovies, zerg does and thats problematic. But from someone who never played poiint of view, if he only learned Zerg, then it wouldnt be so bad since he would get used to that problem and a way to figure it out. Thus !!! i believe in the end no race is actually harder then the next, its just depends on how much experience u have with them. :O
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United States7166 Posts
he's not trolling he's just a protonewb.
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United States7166 Posts
On May 15 2008 04:05 LeGeNdZs[FcG] wrote:
I PLAYED ONLY TOSS 2 years, AND I KNOW BCUS OF THAT and ONLY THAT. Hate it or love it im absolutely correct.
rofl well that explains the rest of your post!
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On May 15 2008 04:05 LeGeNdZs[FcG] wrote:
I PLAYED ONLY TOSS 2 years, AND I KNOW BCUS OF THAT and ONLY THAT. Hate it or love it im absolutely correct.
Nothing further, try playing TvP and tell me Protoss is hard after that.
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protoss is easiest..
whats why i am toss user =P
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im only posting one last time here cus im not ez to change my mind on this, i love my race its not ez to use. Its as hard as the others.
It all comes down to who the player is, and how much experience they have, a gosu with all races would find each race is equal since he can use them perfectly. A newb with zerg would cry that ovies die, a newb with terran would cry that protoss over throws them, a newb with protoss would cry that terrans tanks are too strong. All in all no race harder than the next its up to the experience. I say only koreans that are pro licensed have a right to make any claims here!
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zerg is probably the least intuitive of the race, but I think terran is the hardest race
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 15 2008 04:01 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.
TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.
eh INC while I agree TvZ is probably the most technically difficult matchup in the game, it's also the 'strong mu' for T, with T being the natural counter to Z (more-so than P is to T as you mentioned). While all you said is true, there are loads of technical advantages terrans have over zerg in this matchup as well.. simply because the zerg units are just so weak in this matchup, more so than any other matchup in the game. And I disagree with the 'cant A move against just about anything zerg throws at you' part. there are tons of situations you can simply a-move (well, after stimming + maybe a scan). and I would say that there are just as many 'cant just A move' situations for zerg as well in that matchup.. mutalisks you rarely want to do that and is considerably more technically difficult imo than something like marines vs lurkers. i never had to practice marine micro maps before, it's just something that's pretty logical/simple.. spread out and drag lurker fire with the first marine.. and it's usually really not a big deal to lose some marines anyway due to mis-micro.. they are so cheap and abundant while gas is much more precious to zerg obviously (not to mention larvae as well). And that's just mutas.. what about other units? When can you just A-move as zerg? that's only if your army somehow completely overpowers the one you're fighting. take for example a group of m&m attacking a zerg expo. unless the zerg already has lurkers there, who has the easier mechanical aspect? how hard is it to stim as lurker/lings come in and then run back as the lurkers burrow? now the marines are safe again until the zerg tries to burrow again. sure eventually the lurker will be near the hatchery and so the marines have a harder time hitting it, but i wouldnt say it was any easier for terrans here than zerg. And then defilers. They are extremely difficult to use and just harder all around than vessels are for terran, and dont have any use when massed unlike vessels. Using scourge to kill vessels protected my marines is imo just slightly harder than it is for the vessels to take out defilers who are protected by scourge (and possibly hydras)... but what is the 'finishing blow' is that the terran is constantly producing vessels while the zerg is not doing the same with defilers.. and eventually the vessel count just becomes big while zerg is still just trying to maintain a constant 1-2 defilers at each base/army. Then you also add in the fact that T can spam SCVs while Z cannot just spam drones, along with the fact that minerals are much less useful to Z than they are to T in this MU...then add in how cost-effective marines/medics are in this matchup.. (I'm confident nothing else in the game is close to being this cost-effective). All lead into how I wouldn't say T is the definite harder race to play in this MU. T is highly technical but stronger as well.. while Z is definitely less but also weaker. And then TvT vs ZvZ..comeon the two are nothing alike. TvT is almost like a game of chess + macro while ZvZ is like no other matchup whatsoever... requires so much finesse/feel/understanding/experience/control.. it requires a skillset unlike any other matchup. It's such a low-economy game..never has each worker become so precious.. and never can you lose a game so quickly and easily. It's different enough that I'd say it's harder than TvT..but this is certainly arguable.
I might be more inclined to argue with this on a more point by point level later but let me just say for the most part you cannot attack move as terran. 4 lurkers can in a good position become almost invincible against a terran force of marines. And even then you HAVE to have scan or guide the science vessel to give detection. This is particularly unique because lurkers are a maintstay against terran so it becomes more feasible to claim that "A" move is usually a luxury you cant have in TvZ. While on the flip side 99% of late game zvt is ultra ling in which case 99% of z's that are mid to lower level "A" move ultras and lings and and are relatively fine. They dont need overlords, or technical units. Of course they help but again, its not necessary. So I disagree: terrans for the most part cannot "A" move and the situation in which they can is rare and usually meaningless whereas I could be relatively successful as a ZvT player and "A" move every other game.
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voted zerg, while my main race was terran (after few switches). Zerg is hardest because of drag and drop - you can't hotkey it all and balancing how much you hotkey and how isn't so obvious. There is a lot of multitasking while you need to get used to and learn by heart the zerg production cycle, how its timed etc. Timing and knowledge is more important, since you get punished by terran ranged units and after losing critical amount of army you get rolled over. Your decisions need to be sharper and quicker - talking about zvz and zvt, where your mistakes cost more than for other race's matchups.
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On May 15 2008 04:18 alphablend wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 04:05 LeGeNdZs[FcG] wrote:
I PLAYED ONLY TOSS 2 years, AND I KNOW BCUS OF THAT and ONLY THAT. Hate it or love it im absolutely correct.
Nothing further, try playing TvP and tell me Protoss is hard after that.
Actually I personally find TvP just as easy as PvT (I've played both of them for years) but I can't get a grip on TvZ :p Kind of off topic but its odd, my best matchups are PvT, TvP, and ZvT, two of which are thought of as the "harder" matchups ;_;
But after playing each race for many years I've concluded that T is the hardest all-around. I don't get how everyone is bashing on P however ;_;
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On May 15 2008 04:24 LeGeNdZs[FcG] wrote:
im only posting one last time here cus im not ez to change my mind on this, i love my race its not ez to use. Its as hard as the others.
It all comes down to who the player is, and how much experience they have, a gosu with all races would find each race is equal since he can use them perfectly. A newb with zerg would cry that ovies die, a newb with terran would cry that protoss over throws them, a newb with protoss would cry that terrans tanks are too strong. All in all no race harder than the next its up to the experience. I say only koreans that are pro licensed have a right to make any claims here!
lulz
On May 15 2008 04:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 04:01 Zelniq wrote:On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.
TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.
eh INC while I agree TvZ is probably the most technically difficult matchup in the game, it's also the 'strong mu' for T, with T being the natural counter to Z (more-so than P is to T as you mentioned). While all you said is true, there are loads of technical advantages terrans have over zerg in this matchup as well.. simply because the zerg units are just so weak in this matchup, more so than any other matchup in the game. And I disagree with the 'cant A move against just about anything zerg throws at you' part. there are tons of situations you can simply a-move (well, after stimming + maybe a scan). and I would say that there are just as many 'cant just A move' situations for zerg as well in that matchup.. mutalisks you rarely want to do that and is considerably more technically difficult imo than something like marines vs lurkers. i never had to practice marine micro maps before, it's just something that's pretty logical/simple.. spread out and drag lurker fire with the first marine.. and it's usually really not a big deal to lose some marines anyway due to mis-micro.. they are so cheap and abundant while gas is much more precious to zerg obviously (not to mention larvae as well). And that's just mutas.. what about other units? When can you just A-move as zerg? that's only if your army somehow completely overpowers the one you're fighting. take for example a group of m&m attacking a zerg expo. unless the zerg already has lurkers there, who has the easier mechanical aspect? how hard is it to stim as lurker/lings come in and then run back as the lurkers burrow? now the marines are safe again until the zerg tries to burrow again. sure eventually the lurker will be near the hatchery and so the marines have a harder time hitting it, but i wouldnt say it was any easier for terrans here than zerg. And then defilers. They are extremely difficult to use and just harder all around than vessels are for terran, and dont have any use when massed unlike vessels. Using scourge to kill vessels protected my marines is imo just slightly harder than it is for the vessels to take out defilers who are protected by scourge (and possibly hydras)... but what is the 'finishing blow' is that the terran is constantly producing vessels while the zerg is not doing the same with defilers.. and eventually the vessel count just becomes big while zerg is still just trying to maintain a constant 1-2 defilers at each base/army. Then you also add in the fact that T can spam SCVs while Z cannot just spam drones, along with the fact that minerals are much less useful to Z than they are to T in this MU...then add in how cost-effective marines/medics are in this matchup.. (I'm confident nothing else in the game is close to being this cost-effective). All lead into how I wouldn't say T is the definite harder race to play in this MU. T is highly technical but stronger as well.. while Z is definitely less but also weaker. And then TvT vs ZvZ..comeon the two are nothing alike. TvT is almost like a game of chess + macro while ZvZ is like no other matchup whatsoever... requires so much finesse/feel/understanding/experience/control.. it requires a skillset unlike any other matchup. It's such a low-economy game..never has each worker become so precious.. and never can you lose a game so quickly and easily. It's different enough that I'd say it's harder than TvT..but this is certainly arguable. I might be more inclined to argue with this on a more point by point level later but let me just say for the most part you cannot attack move as terran. 4 lurkers can in a good position become almost invincible against a terran force of marines. And even then you HAVE to have scan or guide the science vessel to give detection. This is particularly unique because lurkers are a maintstay against terran so it becomes more feasible to claim that "A" move is usually a luxury you cant have in TvZ. While on the flip side 99% of late game zvt is ultra ling in which case 99% of z's that are mid to lower level "A" move ultras and lings and and are relatively fine. They dont need overlords, or technical units. Of course they help but again, its not necessary. So I disagree: terrans for the most part cannot "A" move and the situation in which they can is rare and usually meaningless whereas I could be relatively successful as a ZvT player and "A" move every other game.
Gotta agree Tvz is a ridiculous mu. (shit its pretty fucking hard for z too) i used to have quick hands, but I couldnt never wrap my head around how the fuck to micro mm. A good T playing tvz is one of the prettiest things to watch in bw, imo. Shit takes insane talent
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On May 15 2008 04:25 Valentine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 04:18 alphablend wrote:On May 15 2008 04:05 LeGeNdZs[FcG] wrote:
I PLAYED ONLY TOSS 2 years, AND I KNOW BCUS OF THAT and ONLY THAT. Hate it or love it im absolutely correct.
Nothing further, try playing TvP and tell me Protoss is hard after that. Actually I personally find TvP just as easy as PvT (I've played both of them for years) but I can't get a grip on TvZ :p Kind of off topic but its odd, my best matchups are PvT, TvP, and ZvT, two of which are thought of as the "harder" matchups ;_; But after playing each race for many years I've concluded that T is the hardest all-around. I don't get how everyone is bashing on P however ;_;
<3 yes im concluding that everyone posts the differences of each race, and points these differences as more hard for one race and easier for the next. The thing is that when you use your race for a long period of time and dont change, you become used to controling its every aspect, thus its no longer hard but natural. This is why people practice for so many hours a day, so they can void out any hardships in a matchup. Less experiences players might say that Terrans harder then zerg then protoss. But a wise player will note that each has its own unique differences rather than hardships and that one must adapt to those differences to use the race at full potential, therefore no race is harder than the next its just the users flaws. (i edited this liek 6 times after reading it, because i have to raed what i say in order to get it out right. This looks like my best version of what i might try to tell ppl about this topic.)
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It depends what your strength as a player is (and obviously what you mean by intermediate level). If you're good at Terran/Protoss macro/multitasking, Zerg is harder to get a grasp on as it's a different style of base management. I myself started out as a Zerg player and my strength is micro so I find Terran harder as the multitasking required to play the race effectively is a lot higher than the other two races. I can see Zerg being harder if you can't micro well because all your units will just get slaughtered all the time and you'll get frustrated. Then you'll move to Protoss and then complain how they are the hardest because you suck. jk
edit: god the post above me just made my post useless, oh well whatever.
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United States7166 Posts
On May 15 2008 04:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 04:01 Zelniq wrote:On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.
TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.
eh INC while I agree TvZ is probably the most technically difficult matchup in the game, it's also the 'strong mu' for T, with T being the natural counter to Z (more-so than P is to T as you mentioned). While all you said is true, there are loads of technical advantages terrans have over zerg in this matchup as well.. simply because the zerg units are just so weak in this matchup, more so than any other matchup in the game. And I disagree with the 'cant A move against just about anything zerg throws at you' part. there are tons of situations you can simply a-move (well, after stimming + maybe a scan). and I would say that there are just as many 'cant just A move' situations for zerg as well in that matchup.. mutalisks you rarely want to do that and is considerably more technically difficult imo than something like marines vs lurkers. i never had to practice marine micro maps before, it's just something that's pretty logical/simple.. spread out and drag lurker fire with the first marine.. and it's usually really not a big deal to lose some marines anyway due to mis-micro.. they are so cheap and abundant while gas is much more precious to zerg obviously (not to mention larvae as well). And that's just mutas.. what about other units? When can you just A-move as zerg? that's only if your army somehow completely overpowers the one you're fighting. take for example a group of m&m attacking a zerg expo. unless the zerg already has lurkers there, who has the easier mechanical aspect? how hard is it to stim as lurker/lings come in and then run back as the lurkers burrow? now the marines are safe again until the zerg tries to burrow again. sure eventually the lurker will be near the hatchery and so the marines have a harder time hitting it, but i wouldnt say it was any easier for terrans here than zerg. And then defilers. They are extremely difficult to use and just harder all around than vessels are for terran, and dont have any use when massed unlike vessels. Using scourge to kill vessels protected my marines is imo just slightly harder than it is for the vessels to take out defilers who are protected by scourge (and possibly hydras)... but what is the 'finishing blow' is that the terran is constantly producing vessels while the zerg is not doing the same with defilers.. and eventually the vessel count just becomes big while zerg is still just trying to maintain a constant 1-2 defilers at each base/army. Then you also add in the fact that T can spam SCVs while Z cannot just spam drones, along with the fact that minerals are much less useful to Z than they are to T in this MU...then add in how cost-effective marines/medics are in this matchup.. (I'm confident nothing else in the game is close to being this cost-effective). All lead into how I wouldn't say T is the definite harder race to play in this MU. T is highly technical but stronger as well.. while Z is definitely less but also weaker. And then TvT vs ZvZ..comeon the two are nothing alike. TvT is almost like a game of chess + macro while ZvZ is like no other matchup whatsoever... requires so much finesse/feel/understanding/experience/control.. it requires a skillset unlike any other matchup. It's such a low-economy game..never has each worker become so precious.. and never can you lose a game so quickly and easily. It's different enough that I'd say it's harder than TvT..but this is certainly arguable. I might be more inclined to argue with this on a more point by point level later but let me just say for the most part you cannot attack move as terran. 4 lurkers can in a good position become almost invincible against a terran force of marines. And even then you HAVE to have scan or guide the science vessel to give detection. This is particularly unique because lurkers are a maintstay against terran so it becomes more feasible to claim that "A" move is usually a luxury you cant have in TvZ. While on the flip side 99% of late game zvt is ultra ling in which case 99% of z's that are mid to lower level "A" move ultras and lings and and are relatively fine. They dont need overlords, or technical units. Of course they help but again, its not necessary. So I disagree: terrans for the most part cannot "A" move and the situation in which they can is rare and usually meaningless whereas I could be relatively successful as a ZvT player and "A" move every other game.
well once you get to the ultra/ling state yes of course it's A-move .. but up till then..with mutas and defilers it certainly is not.. two of the most difficult units to control/use properly. Also the sheer amount of units with the very limited amount of hotkeys due to ofc hatchery bindings as well makes it more complicated than simple A-move..even with the end-game of ultra/ling/scourge.
my personal opinion is that both TvZ and ZvT are two of the most difficult matchups in the game, especially among mid to lower level players
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Almost 100% agree with Inc.
I don't think TvT is aaaaaaassss hard as you described it. Its a lot slower and more strategy based than other MUs, but I think its pretty forgiving for small mistakes here and there, and I don't think the feel required is as much as ZvZ (which I consider hardest, most unforgiving MU).
Also, with any other race, you really get punished if you have money stacked up in the bank, whereas for Zerg, if you get 2k/2k, whatever, just bam, 10 ultras, and a billion lings and you win.
The thing I guess people also take into consideration for hardest MU is how long the MU usually takes. Some might not consider ZvZ that hard, cos games usually go like 10-15 minutes max. On the flip side of that, TvTs, which easily hit the 1 hour mark could be considered difficult simply because of the stamina required to focus for such a long time. If you lose a ZvZ, whatever, you learned a lesson, you can play like 3 more games before the TvT game would finish.
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United States20661 Posts
On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.
TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.
Zerg is harder than whateverthe fuck you're talking about
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United States7166 Posts
lol just realized TvT is more towards what that one guy who wrote the PC Gamer article wants (Link). less about speed, more thinking!
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I voted zerg, because from my experience as C lvl toss, tvt and tvp are pretty easy but zvt and zvz are realy hard.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 15 2008 04:37 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 04:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On May 15 2008 04:01 Zelniq wrote:On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
btw in all honesty:
terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.
TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.
TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.
eh INC while I agree TvZ is probably the most technically difficult matchup in the game, it's also the 'strong mu' for T, with T being the natural counter to Z (more-so than P is to T as you mentioned). While all you said is true, there are loads of technical advantages terrans have over zerg in this matchup as well.. simply because the zerg units are just so weak in this matchup, more so than any other matchup in the game. And I disagree with the 'cant A move against just about anything zerg throws at you' part. there are tons of situations you can simply a-move (well, after stimming + maybe a scan). and I would say that there are just as many 'cant just A move' situations for zerg as well in that matchup.. mutalisks you rarely want to do that and is considerably more technically difficult imo than something like marines vs lurkers. i never had to practice marine micro maps before, it's just something that's pretty logical/simple.. spread out and drag lurker fire with the first marine.. and it's usually really not a big deal to lose some marines anyway due to mis-micro.. they are so cheap and abundant while gas is much more precious to zerg obviously (not to mention larvae as well). And that's just mutas.. what about other units? When can you just A-move as zerg? that's only if your army somehow completely overpowers the one you're fighting. take for example a group of m&m attacking a zerg expo. unless the zerg already has lurkers there, who has the easier mechanical aspect? how hard is it to stim as lurker/lings come in and then run back as the lurkers burrow? now the marines are safe again until the zerg tries to burrow again. sure eventually the lurker will be near the hatchery and so the marines have a harder time hitting it, but i wouldnt say it was any easier for terrans here than zerg. And then defilers. They are extremely difficult to use and just harder all around than vessels are for terran, and dont have any use when massed unlike vessels. Using scourge to kill vessels protected my marines is imo just slightly harder than it is for the vessels to take out defilers who are protected by scourge (and possibly hydras)... but what is the 'finishing blow' is that the terran is constantly producing vessels while the zerg is not doing the same with defilers.. and eventually the vessel count just becomes big while zerg is still just trying to maintain a constant 1-2 defilers at each base/army. Then you also add in the fact that T can spam SCVs while Z cannot just spam drones, along with the fact that minerals are much less useful to Z than they are to T in this MU...then add in how cost-effective marines/medics are in this matchup.. (I'm confident nothing else in the game is close to being this cost-effective). All lead into how I wouldn't say T is the definite harder race to play in this MU. T is highly technical but stronger as well.. while Z is definitely less but also weaker. And then TvT vs ZvZ..comeon the two are nothing alike. TvT is almost like a game of chess + macro while ZvZ is like no other matchup whatsoever... requires so much finesse/feel/understanding/experience/control.. it requires a skillset unlike any other matchup. It's such a low-economy game..never has each worker become so precious.. and never can you lose a game so quickly and easily. It's different enough that I'd say it's harder than TvT..but this is certainly arguable. I might be more inclined to argue with this on a more point by point level later but let me just say for the most part you cannot attack move as terran. 4 lurkers can in a good position become almost invincible against a terran force of marines. And even then you HAVE to have scan or guide the science vessel to give detection. This is particularly unique because lurkers are a maintstay against terran so it becomes more feasible to claim that "A" move is usually a luxury you cant have in TvZ. While on the flip side 99% of late game zvt is ultra ling in which case 99% of z's that are mid to lower level "A" move ultras and lings and and are relatively fine. They dont need overlords, or technical units. Of course they help but again, its not necessary. So I disagree: terrans for the most part cannot "A" move and the situation in which they can is rare and usually meaningless whereas I could be relatively successful as a ZvT player and "A" move every other game. well once you get to the ultra/ling state yes of course it's A-move .. but up till then..with mutas and defilers it certainly is not.. two of the most difficult units to control/use properly. Also the sheer amount of units with the very limited amount of hotkeys due to ofc hatchery bindings as well makes it more complicated than simple A-move..even with the end-game of ultra/ling/scourge. my personal opinion is that both TvZ and ZvT are two of the most difficult matchups in the game, especially among mid to lower level players
That is of course after you ignore that I say ultra/ling are more common and more likely to be successful with if you "A" move when in comparison to "A" move situations with T and the chances of that situation being viable are far less reduced.
I agree zvt/tvz are the two hardest mu's imo.
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On May 15 2008 00:55 fusionsdf wrote:
its certainly not fucking protoss
Agreed.
"whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss."
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id say z at intermediate level
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Personally I find the micro for both Terran and Zerg to be on an equal and difficult level, it's the macro which differentiates the two races. Macroing out of a ton of barracks/factories is a lot easier for me than out of hatcheries, because a combination of click-hotkey becomes very very fast once you get it down. Perhaps for people who find it easier to hit 6 through 0 than I do think otherwise, though. Even so, managing drone, overlord and hatchery count while still making enough units to win the game is a lot less intuitive than anything else the game has to offer. Based on that, I definitely think zerg is the more difficult race to play and master.
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zerg hands down.
i play mainly terran and toss, but zerg just has a totally different mechanic to the whole game with them. early on, one micro mistake with your mutas or lurker against terran OR toss will end the game. it requires alot more finesse/control because losing your army means that the enemy can counter and level a much needed third gas expansion.
also, early M&M + tank combo push will give you fucking hell.
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its actually flashback, not backflash
terran is hardest because it takes more apm to control your army and maintain your base than it does for other races
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terran ez tvp = so gay....
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On May 15 2008 05:31 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:Agreed. "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss."
sig'd
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
sorry op terran is the hardest
why so little protoss winners though wtf??? -_-
watching hall of fame today... boxer, yellow, nada.
2 T 1 Z lol NO P GG?? although these days there's been a huge increase in the amount of P and P wins so far none have won OSL in a while and i guess only bisus got the 2 sort of recent MSL wins... o.O
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Terran. The big problem for intermediate Zergs is splitting up larvae on drones and units correctly. There is a much larger gap between amateur Terrans and better Terrans because there's mechanics needed, timing needed, game sense needed, and overall I think it's probably hardest as an intermediate.
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On May 15 2008 07:33 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 05:31 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:On May 15 2008 00:55 fusionsdf wrote:
its certainly not fucking protoss Agreed. "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss." sig'd
Wtf guys. You know how difficult PvT actually is?
Your exp is later than the terrans. Dies to a timing push.
Your dts run into mines. Dies to vulture harass.
Your reaver dies to a turret. Dies to an early push.
All those things are inevitable. At all other matchups except maybe in ZvZ you can lose a couple of units midgame and still have a chance to win, that's not even remotely possible in PvT.
A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a pylon WILL lose you the game in PvT. Or not flanking your units perfectly in lategame. It's almost impossible to get back from a economical disadvatage vs a stable terran who knows when to push. I don't think I've ever won a game against a terran relatively close to my skill level who got higher supply than me midgame.
Although in my opinion PvZ is pretty ez at foreigner level (most zergs doesn't know how to flank and snipe templars correctly), PvP is the most confusing matchup ever because it rewards risky play more than any other matchup. I'm pretty confident in PvP but I still haven't really grasped it, sometimes it feels impossible to master because there's always a possibility to lose against a worse player - at least when both players are teching blind.
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On May 15 2008 07:58 Shauni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 07:33 fusionsdf wrote:On May 15 2008 05:31 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:On May 15 2008 00:55 fusionsdf wrote:
its certainly not fucking protoss Agreed. "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss." sig'd Wtf guys. You know how difficult PvT actually is? Your exp is later than the terrans. Dies to a timing push. Your dts run into mines. Dies to vulture harass. Your reaver dies to a turret. Dies to an early push. All those things are inevitable. At all other matchups except maybe in ZvZ you can lose a couple of units midgame and still have a chance to win, that's not even remotely possible in PvT. A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a pylon WILL lose you the game in PvT. Or not flanking your units perfectly in lategame. It's almost impossible to get back from a economical disadvatage vs a stable terran who knows when to push. I don't think I've ever won a game against a terran relatively close to my skill level who got higher supply than me midgame. Although in my opinion PvZ is pretty ez at foreigner level (most zergs doesn't know how to flank and snipe templars correctly), PvP is the most confusing matchup ever because it rewards risky play more than any other matchup. I'm pretty confident in PvP but I still haven't really grasped it, sometimes it feels impossible to master because there's always a possibility to lose against a worse player - at least when both players are teching blind.
I don't think you know what inevitable means. You're also missing the difference between a progamer and a D gamer
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I don't know why Protoss get so much crap. PvZ is not easy... the zerg has so many options and the toss has to react to it and small mistakes can mean the game is over really quickly.
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United States10774 Posts
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Hmm ZvT IS a bitch, haven't played terran much but they are hard also.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:03 zer0das wrote:
I don't know why Protoss get so much crap. PvZ is not easy... the zerg has so many options and the toss has to react to it and small mistakes can mean the game is over really quickly.
nah, i find pvz really easy. especially nowadays with these 100% safe FE builds. the macro is just so easy i tend to run over any zerg near my own level with my protoss, and i don't play protoss
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 07:33 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 05:31 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:On May 15 2008 00:55 fusionsdf wrote:
its certainly not fucking protoss Agreed. "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss." sig'd
whats that, you suck with all races? well fuck then welcome to team monkeyspanker+fusionsdf!!!!
SIGGGGGGGGGGGGG
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 08:03 zer0das wrote:
I don't know why Protoss get so much crap. PvZ is not easy... the zerg has so many options and the toss has to react to it and small mistakes can mean the game is over really quickly. nah, i find pvz really easy. especially nowadays with these 100% safe FE builds. the macro is just so easy i tend to run over any zerg near my own level with my protoss, and i don't play protoss
Steve as much as much I love you I highly doubt you beat zergs of your OWN LEVEL with your off race(protoss)
you are playing worse players
it's not so 100% safe either because of the new popular fast speedling build. you dont know what the Z is doing til corsair
balls
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:01 EnergyTraction wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 07:58 Shauni wrote:On May 15 2008 07:33 fusionsdf wrote:On May 15 2008 05:31 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:On May 15 2008 00:55 fusionsdf wrote:
its certainly not fucking protoss Agreed. "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss." sig'd Wtf guys. You know how difficult PvT actually is? Your exp is later than the terrans. Dies to a timing push. Your dts run into mines. Dies to vulture harass. Your reaver dies to a turret. Dies to an early push. All those things are inevitable. At all other matchups except maybe in ZvZ you can lose a couple of units midgame and still have a chance to win, that's not even remotely possible in PvT. A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a pylon WILL lose you the game in PvT. Or not flanking your units perfectly in lategame. It's almost impossible to get back from a economical disadvatage vs a stable terran who knows when to push. I don't think I've ever won a game against a terran relatively close to my skill level who got higher supply than me midgame. Although in my opinion PvZ is pretty ez at foreigner level (most zergs doesn't know how to flank and snipe templars correctly), PvP is the most confusing matchup ever because it rewards risky play more than any other matchup. I'm pretty confident in PvP but I still haven't really grasped it, sometimes it feels impossible to master because there's always a possibility to lose against a worse player - at least when both players are teching blind. I don't think you know what inevitable means. You're also missing the difference between a progamer and a D gamer
I think that applies to like C and higher gamers lol
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:20 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 08:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 15 2008 08:03 zer0das wrote:
I don't know why Protoss get so much crap. PvZ is not easy... the zerg has so many options and the toss has to react to it and small mistakes can mean the game is over really quickly. nah, i find pvz really easy. especially nowadays with these 100% safe FE builds. the macro is just so easy i tend to run over any zerg near my own level with my protoss, and i don't play protoss Steve as much as much I love you I highly doubt you beat zergs of your OWN LEVEL with your off race(protoss) you are playing worse players it's not so 100% safe either because of the new popular fast speedling build. you have know what the Z is doing til corsair balls
no, i'm playing people at my level. I'm not great to begin with, the point is that without really playing protoss (besides when i random vs manifesto) my pvz is almost as good as my tvz, with results mixing depending on whether the zerg is particularily good or bad at those two matchups
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:26 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 08:20 OneOther wrote:On May 15 2008 08:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On May 15 2008 08:03 zer0das wrote:
I don't know why Protoss get so much crap. PvZ is not easy... the zerg has so many options and the toss has to react to it and small mistakes can mean the game is over really quickly. nah, i find pvz really easy. especially nowadays with these 100% safe FE builds. the macro is just so easy i tend to run over any zerg near my own level with my protoss, and i don't play protoss Steve as much as much I love you I highly doubt you beat zergs of your OWN LEVEL with your off race(protoss) you are playing worse players it's not so 100% safe either because of the new popular fast speedling build. you have know what the Z is doing til corsair balls no, i'm playing people at my level. I'm not great to begin with, the point is that without really playing protoss (besides when i random vs manifesto) my pvz is almost as good as my tvz, with results mixing depending on whether the zerg is particularily good or bad at those two matchups
haha, well...
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Valhalla18444 Posts
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T for forigners
Z for kor pros
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Your exp is later than the terrans. Dies to a timing push.
T PoV: Your exp is earlier than protoss, because protoss went some kind of tech build and harasses you. Your timing push is delayed and protoss flanks you or shuttles your push.
Your dts run into mines. Dies to vulture harass.
T PoV: The Protoss was smart and ran a zealot in first to defuse mines. You
a) lose right there to DT rush.
b) counter with vulture harass, but Protoss was smart and put a DT on ramp, so you also lose to the DT rush.
Your reaver dies to a turret. Dies to an early push.
T PoV: The turret at the top of your CC doesn't reach the shuttle below your CC, you lose ~1 tank, 4 marines, 6-7scvs and mining time, and timing. You
a) lose right there to a goon counter at your nat
b) lose when you normally do your timing push because P bought some time with the reaver for his 3rd to get up
All those things are inevitable. At all other matchups except maybe in ZvZ you can lose a couple of units midgame and still have a chance to win, that's not even remotely possible in PvT.
No. lol.
A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a pylon WILL lose you the game in PvT.
A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a supply depot WILL lose you the game in TvP.
It's almost impossible to get back from a economical disadvatage vs a stable terran who knows when to push.
No, harass + flank + expo.
I don't think I've ever won a game against a terran relatively close to my skill level who got higher supply than me midgame.
If midgame terran had higher supply than you, then he must be at a higher skill level than you.
TvP is one of the LEAST forgiving matchups. If a P ever catches your army mobile, you'll lose to an army half your size. I mean, watch Nony vs. Artosis on the side if you don't believe me. Artosis had it in the bag, but lategame he constantly lost his army to half his army size over and over again.
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On May 15 2008 08:03 zer0das wrote:
I don't know why Protoss get so much crap. PvZ is not easy... the zerg has so many options and the toss has to react to it and small mistakes can mean the game is over really quickly.
Because at like D C level of play on iccup toss is fucked up race that people either tri gate or mass sair dt mass sair shuttle basiclly alot of people dont see toss pros as something hard to play toss usualy is a race that you will build less do less becuase everything is stronger and so by common scence people assoiate that with easier. ZVP is a zerg lively hood good zergs are good at zvp good toss are good at pvt good terrans are good at tvz those are the showmen match ups that any pro usualy should be getting easy wins in no our fault if people practice zvp alot more then pvz
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Terran becuz if you dont have speed for terran then your gonna suck soooo bad...
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:40 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
well... pvz is easy
hahah
play some decent zergs and pvz gets hard ;p
seriously though, "pvz is easy" is a pretty ridiculous statement lol
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This is how i like to think of toss players QQMOAR about shit being hard.
SC is a hard game to play when the level increases don't play pvz agnist jaedong all day and say fucking pvz is imba impossible fucking hardest shit ever. People play to their strenghts PvZ not your strongest match up dont call it hard its just hard for you. Toss is unforgiving in macro games because it cost more for you to replace shit doesn't make it hard just means you need more macro and your not keeping up.
"xyz" (4:56:49 PM): "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss."
Moi (4:57:06 PM): pretty much
"xyz" (4:57:18 PM): if i were a protoss player
"xyz" (4:57:21 PM): i'd be in the Ro16 TSL
"xyz" (4:57:22 PM): lol
Give the SC game to anyone new tell us which race he will choose to play will it be toss??
 inginging*
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Python is the shittiest shit shit map for Protoss.
Protoss is hard... est.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:48 phase wrote:T PoV: Your exp is earlier than protoss, because protoss went some kind of tech build and harasses you. Your timing push is delayed and protoss flanks you or shuttles your push. T PoV: The Protoss was smart and ran a zealot in first to defuse mines. You a) lose right there to DT rush. b) counter with vulture harass, but Protoss was smart and put a DT on ramp, so you also lose to the DT rush. T PoV: The turret at the top of your CC doesn't reach the shuttle below your CC, you lose ~1 tank, 4 marines, 6-7scvs and mining time, and timing. You a) lose right there to a goon counter at your nat b) lose when you normally do your timing push because P bought some time with the reaver for his 3rd to get up Show nested quote +All those things are inevitable. At all other matchups except maybe in ZvZ you can lose a couple of units midgame and still have a chance to win, that's not even remotely possible in PvT. No. lol. Show nested quote +A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a pylon WILL lose you the game in PvT. A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a supply depot WILL lose you the game in TvP. Show nested quote +It's almost impossible to get back from a economical disadvatage vs a stable terran who knows when to push. No, harass + flank + expo. Show nested quote +I don't think I've ever won a game against a terran relatively close to my skill level who got higher supply than me midgame. If midgame terran had higher supply than you, then he must be at a higher skill level than you. TvP is one of the LEAST forgiving matchups. If a P ever catches your army mobile, you'll lose to an army half your size. I mean, watch Nony vs. Artosis on the side if you don't believe me. Artosis had it in the bag, but lategame he constantly lost his army to half his army size over and over again.
Yeah it really depends on POV. You say TvP is one of the least forgiving matchups, but from the protoss side in PvT if you click and loser the shuttle you are basically fucked. run into mines on accident you are done. do a stupid attack you are done.
so this can go really go on forever.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 15 2008 08:57 OneOther wrote:play some decent zergs and pvz gets hard ;p seriously though, "pvz is easy" is a pretty ridiculous statement lol
play someone good and its hard to win? no way
i dunno what to tell you rayray, at the level i'm at (not a beginner by any means but surely nowhere near a high-level foreigner) i find pvz really, really easy.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 09:02 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 08:57 OneOther wrote:On May 15 2008 08:40 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
well... pvz is easy
hahah play some decent zergs and pvz gets hard ;p seriously though, "pvz is easy" is a pretty ridiculous statement lol play someone good and its hard to win? no way i dunno what to tell you rayray, at the level i'm at (not a beginner by any means but surely nowhere near a high-level foreigner) i find pvz really, really easy.
haha fair enough steve
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Just count the number of toss compaired to terran and zerg in the TSL and you'll get your answer
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 09:07 IzzyCraft wrote:
Just count the number of toss compaired to terran and zerg in the TSL and you'll get your answer
answer = you are retarded!
count the number of OSLs/MSLs terran/zerg have won.
you are going to say this isn't about progamers, but it's not about the best foreigners either. How does that mean anything..
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On May 15 2008 09:12 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 09:07 IzzyCraft wrote:
Just count the number of toss compaired to terran and zerg in the TSL and you'll get your answer answer = you are retarded! count the number of OSLs/MSLs terran/zerg have won. you are going to say this isn't about progamers, but it's not about the best foreigners either. How does that mean anything..
So does that mean toss is a hard race by no means just means there wasn't any toss that had the skill to take OSL and MSL until recently that is individual performance if you noticed those zergs and terran where usually the same person many times over. Its like saying well count how many times a man or woman won top honors in a school and not counting how many men and women there are total
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On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Completely agree with this, I feel the reason Terran's win most of the time is because of how much work they've put into it. Go watch VOD's of Terran players off-racing, it's like wtf gosu, especially when they pick Protoss lawl. :O
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On May 15 2008 09:01 SuperJongMan wrote:
Python is the shittiest shit shit map for Protoss.
Protoss is hard... est.
trying to set up a cross map push is so hard on that map
so easy to get flanked, and obs means he knows when you are unseiged/vulnerable.
I still dont know whether I prefer to slow push on that map or not
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z
its so different from terran and protoss for me :X
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 09:17 IzzyCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 09:12 OneOther wrote:On May 15 2008 09:07 IzzyCraft wrote:
Just count the number of toss compaired to terran and zerg in the TSL and you'll get your answer answer = you are retarded! count the number of OSLs/MSLs terran/zerg have won. you are going to say this isn't about progamers, but it's not about the best foreigners either. How does that mean anything.. So does that mean toss is a hard race by no means just means there wasn't any toss that had the skill to take OSL and MSL until recently that is individual performance if you noticed those zergs and terran where usually the same person many times over. Its like saying well count how many times a man or woman won top honors in a school and not counting how many men and women there are total
Ok, explain to me how the number of protoss in TSL means anything.
(use some periods and commas while you are it, please)
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I could never find the total numbers of players for tsl i know its on iccup somewhere i just didnt bother
so i did kor pros who to most display meta game scence you dont seem to like foringers to establish high level play
number of pros| number of pros in top 30 kespa
Toss 9.47% 95 |9
Terran 13.7% 102|14
Zerg 6.14% 114|7
conclude w/e you want from this took the number all off tl.net team roster and the most current kespa
Imo
Toss is a stable race isn't basied on how well you do early on to how the game will end always Zerg race i've heard to be refered as the snowball race due to pros careers and the game play of zerg you do well you do better you do bad it usually just gets worse Terran i find a race of intreuge alot of people like it so the spend alot of hours perfecting it
does these numbers mean anything yes and no all parts of sc races are hard to play as skill increases it seems to be harder and harder just because all builds and match ups dont play the same for all of you doesn't make that one any harder then the rest.
So people useing logic determine on how much required micro is needed
toss is the lest less units so many see it as easy you dont really go overwhlemed easly
terran is a high micro due to alot of range units you need to keep huddeled close and
zerg is a masser race where your controling alot of units and you do have to use some micro cant mindlessly win.
Really i have my opinion you have yours the only way imma gonna type clearly is if my grade in school depended on it Speech is more powerful then writing for the masses imo
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United States10774 Posts
what the fuck are you talkin about? all I asked you to do was explain
On May 15 2008 09:07 IzzyCraft wrote:
Just count the number of toss compaired to terran and zerg in the TSL and you'll get your answer
and use some COMMAS, QUESTION MARKS, AND PERIODS. -> , ? .
edit- I don't get what you are trying to say with that data, either.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 09:35 IzzyCraft wrote:
Really i have my opinion you have yours the only way imma gonna type clearly is if my grade in school depended on it Speech is more powerful then writing for the masses imo
HAHA oh my
-edited out-
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Zerg/Protoss
:o I find terran macro the easiest, and my micro is bad with all races so it doesnt really matter. Probably Terran or Zerg if I was a little better
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On May 15 2008 09:40 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 09:35 IzzyCraft wrote:
Really i have my opinion you have yours the only way imma gonna type clearly is if my grade in school depended on it Speech is more powerful then writing for the masses imo HAHA oh my some grammar is poweful too so you don't sound like a fucking retard
I hate to jump in with this, but complaining about spelling and grammar is plain stupid on the internet. With all the anonymity, you don't know who you are talking to or how educated they are. Not to mention, instant messaging has literally raped language, so who gives a shit?
Edit: how ironic that one of my sentences made completely no sense.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 09:48 ChaosKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 09:40 OneOther wrote:On May 15 2008 09:35 IzzyCraft wrote:
Really i have my opinion you have yours the only way imma gonna type clearly is if my grade in school depended on it Speech is more powerful then writing for the masses imo HAHA oh my some grammar is poweful too so you don't sound like a fucking retard I hate to jump in with this, but complaining about spelling and grammar is plain stupid on the internet. With all the anonymity, you don't know who you are talking to or what how educated they are. Not to mention, instant messaging has literally raped language, so who gives a shit?
I know I never usually get up on that but it's much easier to understand what he's saying if he uses question marks/commas. I don't really care unless it actually bothers the reading..
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I'd agree that at a pro level Zerg
but at any other level Terran.
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On May 15 2008 09:40 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 09:35 IzzyCraft wrote:
Really i have my opinion you have yours the only way imma gonna type clearly is if my grade in school depended on it Speech is more powerful then writing for the masses imo HAHA oh my some grammar is poweful too so you don't sound like a fucking retard
your race is for noobs
get over it
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 09:50 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 09:40 OneOther wrote:On May 15 2008 09:35 IzzyCraft wrote:
Really i have my opinion you have yours the only way imma gonna type clearly is if my grade in school depended on it Speech is more powerful then writing for the masses imo HAHA oh my some grammar is poweful too so you don't sound like a fucking retard your race is for noobs get over it
If you play protoss, then yeah, I guess so
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On May 15 2008 09:37 OneOther wrote:
what the fuck are you talkin about? all I asked you to do was explain
On May 15 2008 09:07 IzzyCraft wrote:
Just count the number of toss compaired to terran and zerg in the TSL and you'll get your answer
and use some COMMAS, QUESTION MARKS, AND PERIODS. -> , ? .
DOUBLE SPACE FOR YOUR EYES
Really that is all you can come up with; my typing habits are absurdly cruel to the eyes and thus
my opinion is wrong. Anyone can type clearly to convey their opinion about a subject as long as
they possession of a three digit in I.Q. it should come fairly
effortlessly. Arguing about spelling is stupid on the internet
So numbers aren't your thing?
Frankly all I was trying to put off is that toss is a race where at most you command the lest. So
Toss is one of the more forgiving races when it comes to attacking and defending because you
control less you can easily give more attention to the units. Toss though is quite unforgiving when
you lose a heavy number of units because it is the slowest to rebuild armies. Toss is also a race
because of its units is slow because it take longer to build up a sizeable force for most to feel
comfortable in attacking times between attacks are longer, meaning there is more down time.
Most people say the hardest part of sc is speed if anyone had all the time in the word to micro
macro etc it wouldn’t be challenging except mentally.
Terran at most you need to micro constantly or else you can lose units to high level play to
people picking them off. Terran is a mostly range race most of their units are low hp and require
constant attention to stay alive also terran has a fast pace match up TvZ which attack and
counters come a lot quicker more often due to the high level of macro needed to maintain a cheep
mnm army.
Zerg at most you command most although zerg has a few heavy hitters in greater spire tech and
ultra tech most of its units die quickly and so macro is in emphasis and because they die
quickly you need to deliver them effectively that requires micro to spread out a lot of units and
heavy amounts of macro to keep a stream of units to effectively attack as zerg. Zerg is a race
about now they make a lot of air units you install pop scourges or hydras without thinking too
much about the cost because zerg can easily replace units but that is what the zerg always has
to do replace units constantly build constantly moving.
In most people’s eyes less is easier to handle and toss is the race that symbolizes strength
though the elite units the powerful units it has. Because the majority of toss units used is just
send group up attack and it will mostly work out people see that race as easy.
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United States10774 Posts
um okay, although that doesn't answer my question of how the number of protoss in TSL means anything. are you saying protoss is the easiest since TSL has most protoss players in it? When did I say I didn't like numbers..?
and all I wanted you to use some commas, which isn't that difficult while making the reading a lot easier. No, i didn't bash on your spelling and no I didn't need you to double-sace. Just some commas would make the reading easier for me. (Which you didn't do in your double-spaced post)
I don't need you to teach me the theories of starcraft races, haha. scroll up and read my question again. Especially when your theories make zero sense whatsoever..
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i think izzy and oneother should exchange race icons. izzy is bitching out like a TYPICAL protoss.
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actually you're both being TYPICAL protosses
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Zerg/Terran then Protoss. I think Zerg is the most difficult because you have to trade off economy for units so it isn't as easy to macro as people think. It's a lot easier to control an MnM army and build rines at the same time then pull off a good attack on a terran ball. Shift+f2 and you're good for macro as P/T.
Edit: I said Z/T was the hardest so I'm not implying that Terran is easy. My point was to say that macro isn't much easier for Zerg and Zerg units die faster. Your scouts are overlords for the most part and losing them hurts whereas scan is instant free info for knowing expo locations, tech, army location, and defenses.
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On May 15 2008 10:09 OneOther wrote:
um okay, although that doesn't answer my question of how the number of protoss in TSL means anything. are you saying protoss is the easiest since TSL has most protoss players in it?
and all I wanted you to use some commas, which isn't that difficult while making the reading a lot easier. I don't need you to teach me the theories of starcraft races, haha. scroll up and read my question again.
It's from a comment I made earlier; that the best foreigners are more or less all toss and never terran which seem to coincide which the results of TSL.
Also, really you can’t decide in your head when to pause and stop. It has to be spelled out literally for you to understand what I’m tiring to say. Really it’s me or you, either I’m lazy or your lazy; so why the hell would I prefer to do more work for a stranger. It’s a statement it requires no explanation it was fact based observation if you can’t put two and two together then why bother.
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On May 15 2008 10:12 mahnini wrote:
actually you're both being TYPICAL protosses
I random although, I would say I hit zerg in random more often than any other race. So I put up a zerg icon. Lol, also how am I bitching mostly I’m just frustrated that I really have to go into in-depth explanations of how shit works for some guy to get something.
Are you saying that toss is a woman’s race? After all you only call women a bitch.
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United States10774 Posts
How shit works? Shut the fuck up - you don't understand this game at all. I can clearly tell from your little theories.
"Zerg is a race about now they make a lot of air units you install pop scourges or hydras without thinking too much about the cost because zerg can easily replace units but that is what the zerg always has to do replace units constantly build constantly moving. "
..Every race has to replace units...while constantly moving.
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80 apm is like perfect macro for toss
and their units have something crazy liky 200 hp
look at terran
marines have like 25 hp
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 10:25 fusionsdf wrote:
80 apm is like perfect macro for toss
and their units have something crazy liky 200 hp
look at terran
marines have like 25 hp
...sigh this is hopeless.
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On May 15 2008 10:25 fusionsdf wrote:
80 apm is like perfect macro for toss
and their units have something crazy liky 200 hp
look at terran
marines have like 25 hp
/topic theres no more to be said.
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On May 15 2008 10:25 fusionsdf wrote:
80 apm is like perfect macro for toss
and their units have something crazy liky 200 hp
look at terran
marines have like 25 hp
Quit bitching
Then fucking change your icon to a Terran or Zerg unit..w/e race you are
Marines have range
40 hp
micro them and 1 zealot dies easily
and yes I play TvP more than PvT
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On May 15 2008 10:25 fusionsdf wrote:
80 apm is like perfect macro for toss
and their units have something crazy liky 200 hp
look at terran
marines have like 25 hp
I lol'd so fucking hard.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 10:25 fusionsdf wrote:
80 apm is like perfect macro for toss
and their units have something crazy liky 200 hp
look at terran
marines have like 25 hp
vultures?
....
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fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded
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On May 15 2008 10:21 OneOther wrote:
How shit works? Shut the fuck up - you don't understand this game at all. I can clearly tell from your little theories.
Why don’t you SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Two things:
One; don’t preach about punctuations when you use them pathetically hyphen it’s called a fucking semicolon but in that case a common what the hell are you tiring to connect. A single hyphen is only used to join two words into one. You should have used a double hyphen, double hyphens basically work the same as colons... they’re all commas
Two; when using the F-word, correct and widely accepted use of a hyphen, you use capitals to deliver the fact you mean it you’re not saying shut the fuck up under your breath or in casual conversation. You’re clearly abrasive and should type accordingly.
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On May 15 2008 10:33 IzzyCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:21 OneOther wrote:
How shit works? Shut the fuck up - you don't understand this game at all. I can clearly tell from your little theories.
Why don’t you SHUT THE FUCK UP. Two things: One; don’t preach about punctuations when you use them pathetically hyphen it’s called a fucking semicolon but in that case a common what the hell are you tiring to connect. A single hyphen is only used to join two words into one. You should have ued a double hyphen, double hyphens basically work the same as colons... they’re all commas. Two; when using the F-word, correct and widely accepted use of a hyphen, you use capitals to deliver the fact you mean it you’re not saying shut the fuck up under your breath or in casual conversation. You’re clearly abrasive and should type according.
OMFG WE FUCKING CARE
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it was only up until recently that more than a few protoss's even started showing up among top 10 in leagues and ladders. I can remember at one point WGT top 10 was all zerg. How can you honestly say that protoss is the easiest race when they haven't even started showing good results until bisu came around and showed everyone how to beat zerg.
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Honestly, people who bash on P are idiots
If you think P is easy, then you are obviously playing the wrong people(probably noobs)
When you play P with the people around the same level, P is pretty damn hard.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 10:33 IzzyCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:21 OneOther wrote:
How shit works? Shut the fuck up - you don't understand this game at all. I can clearly tell from your little theories.
Why don’t you SHUT THE FUCK UP. Two things: One; don’t preach about punctuations when you use them pathetically hyphen it’s called a fucking semicolon but in that case a common what the hell are you tiring to connect. A single hyphen is only used to join two words into one. You should have ued a double hyphen, double hyphens basically work the same as colons... they’re all commas. Two; when using the F-word, correct and widely accepted use of a hyphen, you use capitals to deliver the fact you mean it you’re not saying shut the fuck up under your breath or in casual conversation. You’re clearly abrasive and should type according.
I didn't mean to preach. I just wanted you to use commas because it would make reading easier for me, like I said. Please do use commas from now on if you don't mind.
I am not going to even bother with your second point. All I know is you have very bad understanding of this game and you have no idea what you are talking about. Therefore, you should shut the fuck up and stop posting.
edit- pretty funny how you talk about grammar when you write like this:
"Zerg at most you command most although zerg has a few heavy hitters in greater spire tech and ultra tech most of its units die quickly and so macro is in emphasis and because they die quickly you need to deliver them effectively that requires micro to spread out a lot of units and heavy amounts of macro to keep a stream of units to effectively attack as zerg. Zerg is a race about now they make a lot of air units you install pop scourges....."
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Noob level up to foreigner pro level: Terran (which is why we have so few good Terrans)
Above that (Korean pro level): Zerg (which is why there are only a handful *really* good Zergs - currently only one: Jaedong. All the others are not consistent enough. KeSPA top 30 also usually has fewer Zergs than Terrans or Protoss. Although one Zerg might be at #1 or #2, there's still not many in the top 30)
Protoss of course is always the easiest. We have TONS of them, and they're also getting very strong in Korea right now (after Bisu I'd say). Which is also why I have absolutely zero respect for bad-mannered or arrogant Protoss players. Such scum.
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Skill required to play well (1-10, 10 being hardest)
Protoss: 5/10
Zerg: 8/10
Terran: 10/10
I'm not basing my opinion on tactics or strategy or anything like that - just judging by raw skill it takes to play a race. As said before, protoss units are more resilient (and there's less of them), so there is less overall multitasking required. Zerg units can be replaced easier than the other two races, but I believe attack timing is much more critical and thus more difficult to play zerg. Terran units are perhaps the most fragile (and require the most attention), and adding the fact that often times you can't simply "A, move" a terran army and must instead make more gradual and calculated attacks, I think terran is the most difficult to play.
Taking APM into consideration, I feel as a protoss you can play at a relatively high level with 130-150 APM - whereas a zerg or terran requires 200+ APM.
I'll admit that I'm a terran user which may account for my bias against protoss, but that's my two cents.
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On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded
its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes
wtf is up with that?
also
protoss macro is just like 1z2z3d4d5h
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PvZ is fucking impossible
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 10:45 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes wtf is up with that? also protoss macro is just like 1z2z3d4d5h
are you serious or did my sarcasm radar break
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-edit- nvm imma just pm him the responces
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i think one of the reasons why zerg isn't the hardest is that you can not macro for a little while and not pay the price as much as a toss or terran, the larva just builds up. true, it does cap at 3, but that's still better than having a production building doing nothing.
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United States10774 Posts
740?710? OH MY THAT'S AMAZINGGGG, not.
Okay enough of the grammar stuff. You have ZERO understanding of this game whatsoever so you should just shut it either way.
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Definitely Terran.
I can't macro and use all the terran commands at the same time (stims, seige mode, etc.)
Protoss seems to require the lowest apm which = good thing (not necessarily easy, but easiest for me)
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Izzy - you are fucking retarded.
OneOther told you to use punctuations because we can't understand a goddamn thing you're saying. It actually looks like a piece of elephant shit just came alive and started typing. I'm actually getting frustrated just reading the utter shit that you're spewing out. First, almost none of it makes sense, and the shit that actually makes sense is completely wrong. Maybe if you knew what you were talking about, it wouldn't make my head hurt so much.
Fuck.
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1v1 Izzy + Oneother Grudge match bo7 gogogo
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fusion, you philosophy works well against opponents such as Sargas Tribe and Delta Squadron.
Seriously, fuck off
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why do all the protoss users suffer from pms?
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On May 15 2008 10:45 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes wtf is up with that?
What the hell?
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First of all, get that archon fucking off your profile right now. Why the hell do you have Protoss as your icon?
I don't understand how anyone can be this ignorant. Get to B+ with "simple protoss macro" and then you can talk. But that won't ever happen, so just shut up because you have no idea what you're talking about at all.
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On May 15 2008 08:48 phase wrote:T PoV: Your exp is earlier than protoss, because protoss went some kind of tech build and harasses you. Your timing push is delayed and protoss flanks you or shuttles your push. T PoV: The Protoss was smart and ran a zealot in first to defuse mines. You a) lose right there to DT rush. b) counter with vulture harass, but Protoss was smart and put a DT on ramp, so you also lose to the DT rush. T PoV: The turret at the top of your CC doesn't reach the shuttle below your CC, you lose ~1 tank, 4 marines, 6-7scvs and mining time, and timing. You a) lose right there to a goon counter at your nat b) lose when you normally do your timing push because P bought some time with the reaver for his 3rd to get up Show nested quote +All those things are inevitable. At all other matchups except maybe in ZvZ you can lose a couple of units midgame and still have a chance to win, that's not even remotely possible in PvT. No. lol. Show nested quote +A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a pylon WILL lose you the game in PvT. A minimal macro mistake, even something like forgetting a supply depot WILL lose you the game in TvP. Show nested quote +It's almost impossible to get back from a economical disadvatage vs a stable terran who knows when to push. No, harass + flank + expo. Show nested quote +I don't think I've ever won a game against a terran relatively close to my skill level who got higher supply than me midgame. If midgame terran had higher supply than you, then he must be at a higher skill level than you. TvP is one of the LEAST forgiving matchups. If a P ever catches your army mobile, you'll lose to an army half your size. I mean, watch Nony vs. Artosis on the side if you don't believe me. Artosis had it in the bag, but lategame he constantly lost his army to half his army size over and over again.
I agree with you on most points. I didn't say TvP was easier than PvT, just that people make up Protoss to be a lot less complex race than it really is. Maybe it's easier to use as a total noob since zealots > marines and probably zerglings unmicroed. But at a respectable level the P race is just as difficult as any of the other races.
But I actually picked Z in the poll since the larva management macro part is pretty fucking complex, and in battles you always have to regroup your armies to flank your opponent to have a chance to win, both in ZvP and ZvT. Being a mastermind in tactical engagements is a requirement to improve with Zerg. My weak Zerg was the reason I switched from random to Protoss. Not saying it's generally harder to play, but it wasn't fit for me. And I switched to Protoss because it was considered the weakest race and I wanted to prove people wrong (This was 2003 or 2004). Unfortunately... the tides seems to have turned.
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On May 15 2008 10:56 Seraphim wrote:
Izzy - you are fucking retarded.
OneOther told you to use punctuations because we can't understand a goddamn thing you're saying. It actually looks like a piece of elephant shit just came alive and started typing. I'm actually getting frustrated just reading the utter shit that you're spewing out. First, almost none of it makes sense, and the shit that actually makes sense is completely wrong. Maybe if you knew what you were talking about, it wouldn't make my head hurt so much.
Fuck.
He and I stole enough of this threads space.
I used a pm for him about this but his responses where nothing more than childish remarks. I explained expression of thought and idea doesn’t need to be understood just expressed for one to feel good about something. As long as I understood what I put its all I don’t care about if you don’t like reading what I posted, if you don’t like it don’t read it.
I know restraint so please don’t post anything more about me and him I would again put this in a pm but this is for other people more interested in this more than the threads original goal.
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On May 15 2008 11:00 Seraphim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:45 fusionsdf wrote:On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes wtf is up with that? What the hell?
http://battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml
EDIT:::archons just zap zap dominate without macro, why wouldnt I want one?
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United States10774 Posts
Izzy I just told you to stop talking about the game because you are extremely bad
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On May 15 2008 10:45 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes wtf is up with that? also protoss macro is just like 1z2z3d4d5h
You use 1 tank to kill probes?
Even more, you use tanks to kill probes?
Use vultures, more effective :/
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On May 15 2008 11:00 fusionsdf wrote:
why do all the protoss users suffer from pms?
Maybe idiots who don't know how to play the game like you piss us Protoss players off :0
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I say Zerg, mostly because of the hatcheries and the macro. Terran and Protoss have similar ways to macro, so its not a huge jump between the two races.
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Zerg is the hardest.
Protoss is the easiest.
Terran seems like the hardest, but isn't.
This is because:
- It is the weakest race to cheese, so you are more likely to lose when playing a "weaker" player.
- When faced with someone you lose against over and over, it is the hardest race to figure out a strategy that gives a reliable high rate of success.
- The mechanics required to play zerg at my level is higher than that of protoss and terran.
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Izzy, just stop posting - your words are hurting everyone's heads
Please refrain from typing. Thanks.
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lolol race discussions always turn into flame wars
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Again, we're talking at an Intermediate level - just wanted to remind everyone.
Protoss at the intermediate level is probably the easiest since simple macro can win a decent percentage of games. Terran's mechanics are demanding (even at this level), which can make games hard to win. Zerg is sorta the middle ground at this level.
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On May 15 2008 11:14 ilovejonn wrote:
lolol race discussions always turn into flame wars
Yes, because some people just say P is so easy to play when they themselves don't really play with it.
Or they blow hard
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Mechanically, Terran is toughest. So much multi-tasking apm required to be a good player.
Strategically, protoss, although powerful, they do not have much adaptability, they tend to blind that vulnerability with spellcasting and harassment.
Zerg is right there in the middle, but more on the mechanical side I think.
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On May 15 2008 11:17 clazziquai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 11:14 ilovejonn wrote:
lolol race discussions always turn into flame wars Yes, because some people just say P is so easy to play when they themselves don't really play with it. Or they blow hard
Oh my god I love you
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As soon as I saw this topic, I knew the shit would start to fly.
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From: fusionsdf
Subject: mafia
Date: 5/15/08 11:22
archon >>> corsair
gg no re?
I am only a Mafia suspect you Aussie scum
Pretty sad you call me Mafia outside of the game
And what does that have to do with my icon? If I'm a corsair, I can fly around or go to places you can't reach so DRAW.
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I like how most of the flame posts are made by Toss icon people :p
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On May 15 2008 11:26 Superiorwolf wrote:
I like how most of the flame posts are made by Toss icon people :p
This has been said just reworded like 5 times now -0-
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 11:26 Superiorwolf wrote:
I like how most of the flame posts are made by Toss icon people :p
Yeah because all the angry newbs (Izzy, fusionsdf) are bashing on toss.
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Well Izzy edited his post so dunno what he did there to invoke you guys heh
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On May 15 2008 11:29 Superiorwolf wrote:
Well Izzy edited his post so dunno what he did there to invoke you guys heh
HE TOLD THE TRUTH
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On May 15 2008 11:29 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 11:29 Superiorwolf wrote:
Well Izzy edited his post so dunno what he did there to invoke you guys heh HE TOLD THE TRUTH
He was an idiot o_O
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PM from fusiondf
I dont play iccup but if I did Im sure I would b- toss
anyone find this funny?
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well
ok
more like c+
I mostly play against the computer, but Im pretty confident since I almost never lose (like 20% of the time)
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On May 15 2008 11:38 fusionsdf wrote:
well
ok
more like c+
I mostly play against the computer, but Im pretty confident since I almost never lose (like 20% of the time)
is this serious?
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On May 15 2008 11:39 Wizard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 11:38 fusionsdf wrote:
well
ok
more like c+
I mostly play against the computer, but Im pretty confident since I almost never lose (like 20% of the time) is this serious?
sarcasm probably
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I think fusion is actually a protoss supporter and he acts like an idiot to undermine the argument for how easy protoss is.
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I'm nowhere near that altruistic
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On May 15 2008 10:47 Darkmole wrote:
Hows Protoss 5/10?
I feel that learning to play terran is twice as hard as learning to play as protoss. Hence 5/10.
And for the record, I'm not bashing protoss, just giving an opinion based on personal experience.
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Listen up newbs: all 3 are the hardest..
but to choose one it has to be zerg for this simple reason: The army control is too critical for it to be an easier race. With Terran you can make a ball and attack. With toss you have to slightly flank and your fine. With zerg if you dont flank, OR your muta control sucks, you are fucked. If you dont do really good flanks you lose.... thats the bottom line because all three race's macro is about the same.
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I voted Terran.
As for the whole "Protoss debate," here's how I see it. Protoss macro is similar to Terran macro, both of which are straight forward. However, Terran players need to have a shit load of micro, differentiating them from the other races.
On the flip side, Protoss micro is similar to Zerg micro, both of which are not very demanding, with only one or two spell casters and not much besides that. However, Zerg macro is far more intense.
In other words, Protoss players take the "easiest" half of both Terran and Zerg styles; in a sense, they have the best of both worlds. This is why they are the easiest--note that easiest does not mean they are an easy race to master by any means. It just simply takes far more effort to master a race such as Zerg or Terran, compared to that of Protoss.
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On May 15 2008 12:46 Hypnosis wrote:
Listen up newbs: all 3 are the hardest..
but to choose one it has to be zerg for this simple reason: The army control is too critical for it to be an easier race. With Terran you can make a ball and attack. With toss you have to slightly flank and your fine. With zerg if you dont flank, OR your muta control sucks, you are fucked. If you dont do really good flanks you lose.... thats the bottom line because all three race's macro is about the same.
I lol'd
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Well judging from all the C+ guys, 90% are toss, 10% are zerg and the terrans are nonexistant.
Although you encounter some 45-1 B- terrans which are just fucking lame.
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In addition to my earlier post, I would also like to say that this type of poll is confounded waist-deep in shitty bias. Naturally, a person who votes in a poll like this will favor their own race, after all, who wants to play a race that is seen as "easy to master?"
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On May 15 2008 08:59 IzzyCraft wrote:This is how i like to think of toss players QQMOAR about shit being hard. SC is a hard game to play when the level increases don't play pvz agnist jaedong all day and say fucking pvz is imba impossible fucking hardest shit ever. People play to their strenghts PvZ not your strongest match up dont call it hard its just hard for you. Toss is unforgiving in macro games because it cost more for you to replace shit doesn't make it hard just means you need more macro and your not keeping up. "xyz" (4:56:49 PM): "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss." Moi (4:57:06 PM): pretty much "xyz" (4:57:18 PM): if i were a protoss player "xyz" (4:57:21 PM): i'd be in the Ro16 TSL "xyz" (4:57:22 PM): lol Give the SC game to anyone new tell us which race he will choose to play will it be toss?? ing ing ing*
Frankly i find it severely funny that i was being flame from my post being hard to understand when this one is so obvious a bash agnist toss and no one cared
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On May 15 2008 12:51 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 12:46 Hypnosis wrote:
Listen up newbs: all 3 are the hardest..
but to choose one it has to be zerg for this simple reason: The army control is too critical for it to be an easier race. With Terran you can make a ball and attack. With toss you have to slightly flank and your fine. With zerg if you dont flank, OR your muta control sucks, you are fucked. If you dont do really good flanks you lose.... thats the bottom line because all three race's macro is about the same. I lol'd
Also... with terran you can make a ball and attack? For all 3 matchups if you do that you're screwed. Lurkers will pwn u, toss flank will pwn u (u gotta micro those siege and vults wowww?) and enemy terran will also pwn u.
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On May 15 2008 11:00 fusionsdf wrote:
why do all the protoss users suffer from pms?
On May 15 2008 09:50 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 09:40 OneOther wrote:On May 15 2008 09:35 IzzyCraft wrote:
Really i have my opinion you have yours the only way imma gonna type clearly is if my grade in school depended on it Speech is more powerful then writing for the masses imo HAHA oh my some grammar is poweful too so you don't sound like a fucking retard your race is for noobs get over it
Hmm, maybe all Protoss users "suffer from pms" because you are saying that: at any given level, a Protoss player is less skilled than a Zerg/Terran player. You are directly insulting all Protoss players, and you expect to not get flamed?
On May 15 2008 10:44 TeNken.1 wrote:
As said before, protoss units are more resilient (and there's less of them), so there is less overall multitasking required
While it is true that a Protoss player generally has less units to manage, I believe they have to manage them more carefully than a Zerg/Terran player; because toss units are worth so much more, losing one can put you behind pretty far (Losing a zealot to a dumb mistake will have a much larger effect on a game than losing a zergling to a similar mistake).
On May 15 2008 10:45 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes wtf is up with that? also protoss macro is just like 1z2z3d4d5h
Terran macro is just like 1v2v3v4t5t
I suck with Terran and Zerg (I suck at all races actually, >.> ), but I can still say that Protoss is not ezmode.
Anyway... I voted Zerg because larva macro is serious business >.>
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On May 15 2008 11:36 clazziquai wrote:PM from fusiondf anyone find this funny?
lol yea i find that funny cuz i remember beating him ^^
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On May 15 2008 13:14 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 12:51 mahnini wrote:On May 15 2008 12:46 Hypnosis wrote:
Listen up newbs: all 3 are the hardest..
but to choose one it has to be zerg for this simple reason: The army control is too critical for it to be an easier race. With Terran you can make a ball and attack. With toss you have to slightly flank and your fine. With zerg if you dont flank, OR your muta control sucks, you are fucked. If you dont do really good flanks you lose.... thats the bottom line because all three race's macro is about the same. I lol'd Also... with terran you can make a ball and attack? For all 3 matchups if you do that you're screwed. Lurkers will pwn u, toss flank will pwn u (u gotta micro those siege and vults wowww?) and enemy terran will also pwn u.
Well, your Terran has it easy. Shadow rush = gg no re kthxbai.
On May 15 2008 13:31 caigo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 10:45 fusionsdf wrote:On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes wtf is up with that? also protoss macro is just like 1z2z3d4d5h Terran macro is just like 1v2v3v4t5t I suck with Terran and Zerg (I suck at all races actually, >.> ), but I can still say that Protoss is not ezmode.
Let's not get stray from the actual discussion. The most proliferate argument is not that Protoss is an easy race, but rather, the easiest to master. Just because a race is easy to master doesn't mean that anyone can do it: it still takes ample skill and dedication. However, let's make a scenario:
3 new players start playing StarCraft, each playing a single race. All 3 players have the exact same skill throughout, and all of them play for the exact same amount of time. Similarly, they all progress in skill level at the same rate. No one player is stronger than the other (this is how a tier list works, such as in a fighting game).
As skill and time increases, the Protoss player will get reasonably more powerful than the Terran and Zerg players, and chances are, this will stay the same for a while. As skill and time increase far more drastically, the Terran and Zerg players start to finally pull ahead.
To put it simply, each race can always be improved upon. You can never perfect your style or skill at a race, as there is always an extra expansion you could make or dedicate more time to macro or micro, or perhaps, build up more APM. However, as players attempt to get closer to this "perfection," results tend to come much faster for Protosses when compared to Terrans or Zergs (however, in the long run, Protoss players tend to "max out" sooner). Protoss is typically the less demanding race as I noted in a previous post, and that is why I believe this to be true.
Once again, no race is "easy to master."
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Protoss at a high level is really hard to play with imo. At a lower level, protoss is probably easier to play with, though, just because it's a strong (hp wise) race. And also, making gateways is easy. 1 probe makes like... all the gateways. Terran has to pull mining scv's and make supplies, factories, etc.
Terran at a lower level is just frustrating to play. Cheese GALORE. I must get cheesed like 90% of the time. Whether its a zergling rush, dt drop, reaver, etc. I always seem to get cheesed EZ. And it blows. Getting cheesed too often raises my stress level. But anyway, terran at a higher level is quite rewarding, because that terran ball, oh boy. It's hard to stop.
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On May 15 2008 13:44 ChaosKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 13:14 Superiorwolf wrote:On May 15 2008 12:51 mahnini wrote:On May 15 2008 12:46 Hypnosis wrote:
Listen up newbs: all 3 are the hardest..
but to choose one it has to be zerg for this simple reason: The army control is too critical for it to be an easier race. With Terran you can make a ball and attack. With toss you have to slightly flank and your fine. With zerg if you dont flank, OR your muta control sucks, you are fucked. If you dont do really good flanks you lose.... thats the bottom line because all three race's macro is about the same. I lol'd Also... with terran you can make a ball and attack? For all 3 matchups if you do that you're screwed. Lurkers will pwn u, toss flank will pwn u (u gotta micro those siege and vults wowww?) and enemy terran will also pwn u. Well, your Terran has it easy. Shadow rush = gg no re kthxbai. Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 13:31 caigo wrote:On May 15 2008 10:45 fusionsdf wrote:On May 15 2008 10:33 Seraphim wrote:
fusionsdf, maybe you didn't play easy opponents, you'd realize that your so-called theories would be retarded its not my fault tanks only do like 1/4 dmg to probes wtf is up with that? also protoss macro is just like 1z2z3d4d5h Terran macro is just like 1v2v3v4t5t I suck with Terran and Zerg (I suck at all races actually, >.> ), but I can still say that Protoss is not ezmode. Let's not get stray from the actual discussion. The most proliferate argument is not that Protoss is an easy race, but rather, the easiest to master. Just because a race is easy to master doesn't mean that anyone can do it: it still takes ample skill and dedication. However, let's make a scenario:
From the first page:
On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:
Me and my friend were arguing the other day about which race being the HARDEST to master at the INTERMEDIATE level... He believes it is terran while i believe it is zerg
On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:
INTERMEDIATE level...
On May 15 2008 00:47 ErOs_YasoT wrote:
INTERMEDIATE
This thread is about intermediate level players, not complete mastery of a race.
But, if we are talking about complete mastery...
On May 15 2008 13:44 ChaosKnight wrote:
To put it simply, each race can always be improved upon. You can never perfect your style or skill at a race, as there is always an extra expansion you could make or dedicate more time to macro or micro, or perhaps, build up more APM. However, as players attempt to get closer to this "perfection," results tend to come much faster for Protosses when compared to Terrans or Zergs (however, in the long run, Protoss players tend to "max out" sooner). Protoss is typically the less demanding race as I noted in a previous post, and that is why I believe this to be true.
Once again, no race is "easy to master."
Hmm, I agree with this to some extent. I do not think that Protoss are less demanding, but I can see your point. Also, I do not believe the results that "come faster for Protoss" are really that significant. No one race completely dominates at any skill level.
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On May 15 2008 13:36 Darkmole wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 11:36 clazziquai wrote:PM from fusiondf I dont play iccup but if I did Im sure I would b- toss anyone find this funny? lol yea i find that funny cuz i remember beating him ^^
you've never beaten me
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lol i just noticed fusionsdf quote "whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss."
Caigo was so compelled to join tl.net today and comment about this injustice lol also nice to see he changed his race to toss *cough* as far as I remember its default is scv
There is no argument intermediate play terran is the hardest but that no fun. The clarity in why terran is the hardest at intermediate level is just that after the slow push became weaker against more modern pvt strategies and unviable for tvp more or less the required micro just becomes insanely not viable to compete
I’m pretty same sure anyone can agree with that at the intermediate level a zerg can just spam units and gain macro to crush people *cough* gosia and of course zerg has some powerful eccentrics people can play to rush at lower levels.
Although it becomes a blurred line when its terran and zerg at Korean level just because zerg and terran are played a lot differently at that level mostly a lot better so other things become one again possible to play.
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On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:
This thread is about intermediate level players, not complete mastery of a race.
I was talking about intermediate mastery. I guess I wasn't clear.
On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:But, if we are talking about complete mastery... Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 13:44 ChaosKnight wrote:
To put it simply, each race can always be improved upon. You can never perfect your style or skill at a race, as there is always an extra expansion you could make or dedicate more time to macro or micro, or perhaps, build up more APM. However, as players attempt to get closer to this "perfection," results tend to come much faster for Protosses when compared to Terrans or Zergs (however, in the long run, Protoss players tend to "max out" sooner). Protoss is typically the less demanding race as I noted in a previous post, and that is why I believe this to be true.
Once again, no race is "easy to master." Hmm, I agree with this to some extent. I do not think that Protoss are less demanding, but I can see your point. Also, I do not believe the results that "come faster for Protoss" are really that significant. No one race completely dominates at any skill level.
I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will be feeling some serious pain. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he micros to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. If the Terran doesn't micro, then he's kissing the game goodbye.
As for ZvP, zergs need to manage their money and unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. That's another debate, though.
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On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:
This thread is about intermediate level players, not complete mastery of a race. I was talking about intermediate mastery. I guess I wasn't clear. Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:But, if we are talking about complete mastery... On May 15 2008 13:44 ChaosKnight wrote:
To put it simply, each race can always be improved upon. You can never perfect your style or skill at a race, as there is always an extra expansion you could make or dedicate more time to macro or micro, or perhaps, build up more APM. However, as players attempt to get closer to this "perfection," results tend to come much faster for Protosses when compared to Terrans or Zergs (however, in the long run, Protoss players tend to "max out" sooner). Protoss is typically the less demanding race as I noted in a previous post, and that is why I believe this to be true.
Once again, no race is "easy to master." Hmm, I agree with this to some extent. I do not think that Protoss are less demanding, but I can see your point. Also, I do not believe the results that "come faster for Protoss" are really that significant. No one race completely dominates at any skill level. I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will go through hell. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he sacrifices micro to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. Zergs need to manage their money unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss.
Let's just put it this way. No other race has the ability to gay up their ramps the way Terrans do.
Two gate vs Terran is really laughable, unless we're talking about proxies or maps like Longinus with no ramps.
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On May 15 2008 14:31 Reflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:
This thread is about intermediate level players, not complete mastery of a race. I was talking about intermediate mastery. I guess I wasn't clear. On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:But, if we are talking about complete mastery... On May 15 2008 13:44 ChaosKnight wrote:
To put it simply, each race can always be improved upon. You can never perfect your style or skill at a race, as there is always an extra expansion you could make or dedicate more time to macro or micro, or perhaps, build up more APM. However, as players attempt to get closer to this "perfection," results tend to come much faster for Protosses when compared to Terrans or Zergs (however, in the long run, Protoss players tend to "max out" sooner). Protoss is typically the less demanding race as I noted in a previous post, and that is why I believe this to be true.
Once again, no race is "easy to master." Hmm, I agree with this to some extent. I do not think that Protoss are less demanding, but I can see your point. Also, I do not believe the results that "come faster for Protoss" are really that significant. No one race completely dominates at any skill level. I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will go through hell. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he sacrifices micro to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. Zergs need to manage their money unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. Let's just put it this way. No other race has the ability to gay up their ramps the way Terrans do. Two gate vs Terran is really laughable, unless we're talking about proxies or maps like Longinus with no ramps.
Well as the terran needs to get more rines to hold off the rax or sd getting wailed on by zelots he sets his tank pop father and father back at lower levels goons usualy pop way before the tank will. and usualy 2 goons with a 2 gate will arrive when the tank does forceing the terran to take scv on min lines to keep that one tank alive becuase the rines cant hit the goons behind the suppy depot that well. TvP at low levels early game is hell.
Although i will say low levels zvp has a certian power over toss that fall away shortly after when the toss goes oh just because i fe doesnt mean i stop making expos for the rest of the game lulz
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On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:
I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will be feeling some serious pain. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he micros to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. If the Terran doesn't micro, then he's kissing the game goodbye.
As for ZvP, zergs need to manage their money and unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. That's another debate, though.
Hmm, I suppose you're right.
But, for a lower-level Protoss player, a well defended ramp is not easy to deal with.
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On May 15 2008 14:42 caigo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:
I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will be feeling some serious pain. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he micros to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. If the Terran doesn't micro, then he's kissing the game goodbye.
As for ZvP, zergs need to manage their money and unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. That's another debate, though. Hmm, I suppose you're right. But, for a lower-level Protoss player, a well defended ramp is not easy to deal with.
Well thats after the terran get siege tanks then the ramps become powerful at low level but liek the first 3 mins is hell for a terran playing agaist a 2 or 3 gate toss
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 14:44 IzzyCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:42 caigo wrote:On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:
I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will be feeling some serious pain. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he micros to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. If the Terran doesn't micro, then he's kissing the game goodbye.
As for ZvP, zergs need to manage their money and unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. That's another debate, though. Hmm, I suppose you're right. But, for a lower-level Protoss player, a well defended ramp is not easy to deal with. Well thats after the terran get siege tanks then the ramps become powerful at low level but liek the first 3 mins is hell for a terran playing agaist a 2 or 3 gate toss
you know the cycle goes on forever..
microing vs a ramp isn't easy for protoss either
it's not easy for terran either
there
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On May 15 2008 14:31 Reflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:
This thread is about intermediate level players, not complete mastery of a race. I was talking about intermediate mastery. I guess I wasn't clear. On May 15 2008 14:03 caigo wrote:But, if we are talking about complete mastery... On May 15 2008 13:44 ChaosKnight wrote:
To put it simply, each race can always be improved upon. You can never perfect your style or skill at a race, as there is always an extra expansion you could make or dedicate more time to macro or micro, or perhaps, build up more APM. However, as players attempt to get closer to this "perfection," results tend to come much faster for Protosses when compared to Terrans or Zergs (however, in the long run, Protoss players tend to "max out" sooner). Protoss is typically the less demanding race as I noted in a previous post, and that is why I believe this to be true.
Once again, no race is "easy to master." Hmm, I agree with this to some extent. I do not think that Protoss are less demanding, but I can see your point. Also, I do not believe the results that "come faster for Protoss" are really that significant. No one race completely dominates at any skill level. I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will go through hell. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he sacrifices micro to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. Zergs need to manage their money unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. Let's just put it this way. No other race has the ability to gay up their ramps the way Terrans do.
Precisely. Terrans have what is arguably the weakest early-game defense in StarCraft, of which makes walls extremely important. This weakness is only amplified at the intermediate levels.
On May 15 2008 14:31 Reflex wrote:
Two gate vs Terran is really laughable, unless we're talking about proxies or maps like Longinus with no ramps.
Really? A Protoss can just attack+move a few zealots into a Terran's base, not pay attention to them at all, and possibly do significant damage (provided there is no wall). The Terran will probably have 1-4 marines and be creating a factory. The Terran will probably lose the SCV making the Factory and thereby losing tech momentum, as well as (a) lose the marines and get pwnt, followed by losing tons of SCVs in defense, or (b) micro the marines while failing to consistently buy SCVs and having new ones mine, which then causes the Terran to lose economic momentum.
On May 15 2008 14:42 caigo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:
I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will be feeling some serious pain. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he micros to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. If the Terran doesn't micro, then he's kissing the game goodbye.
As for ZvP, zergs need to manage their money and unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. That's another debate, though. Hmm, I suppose you're right. But, for a lower-level Protoss player, a well defended ramp is not easy to deal with.
The Protoss will simply be playing a more defensive mid/late-game. The Terran will probably have trouble moving out with his forces, sending them across the map as a gigantic single file line. Not to mention, the sieging will probably be late (or badly placed), and mines will be non-existent (or, once again, badly placed). Not only will this be easy to defeat with zealots and dragoons alone, but I'm sure an Arbiter will give the Protoss an incredible advantage, forcing the Terran to micro way more than he possibly can.
Using recall offensively will also end the game if the Terran is some annoying turtle.
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who ever said terran is the hardest but the most rewarding has it about right. A great terran player is very versatile. He's got an army built for many stuations, suited to many styles, and is usually good on a large range of map. but becoming good enough to take those rewards is much harder than the other races.
protoss are the easiest by far to play, but isn't as suited to as many situations as terran. people making up situations like ' countering a terran push' or something aren't being realistic. coming up with a specific situation like that says nothing about how hard or easy one race is. it's like me saying trying to counter a 3 gas protoss with mass arbs. oooh, therefore protoss is the hardest and terran is the easiest! naw.
zerg is somewhere in the middle. obviously harder than protoss, but it's not as hard as terran.
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On May 15 2008 14:22 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 13:36 Darkmole wrote:On May 15 2008 11:36 clazziquai wrote:PM from fusiondf I dont play iccup but if I did Im sure I would b- toss anyone find this funny? lol yea i find that funny cuz i remember beating him ^^ you've never beaten me
yes i did i have proof replays
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On May 15 2008 14:58 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:44 IzzyCraft wrote:On May 15 2008 14:42 caigo wrote:On May 15 2008 14:28 ChaosKnight wrote:
I think the results are significant. If you have two low tier players of equal skill, let's say a Terran and Protoss, that Terran will experience certain hell. Two gate rushes or any sort of early zealot harass will completely rape the Terran player--marine micro is a difficult thing. Unless the Terran can wall (and even that is not always an option), a Protoss can get a significant lead on a Terran. Yes, 2 marines can kill a zealot with good micro, but holy shit if that even happens. The Protoss player doesn't even need to attend to the zealot while the Terran player will be feeling some serious pain. At this level of play, the Terran player will practically lose almost all macro if he micros to stop a zealot, meanwhile, the toss is already teching goon and expanding. If the Terran doesn't micro, then he's kissing the game goodbye.
As for ZvP, zergs need to manage their money and unit ratios pretty well to get the lead on a Protoss. However, at lower levels, I believe that Zergs have a general advantage over Protoss. That's another debate, though. Hmm, I suppose you're right. But, for a lower-level Protoss player, a well defended ramp is not easy to deal with. Well thats after the terran get siege tanks then the ramps become powerful at low level but liek the first 3 mins is hell for a terran playing agaist a 2 or 3 gate toss you know the cycle goes on forever.. microing vs a ramp isn't easy for protoss either it's not easy for terran either there
its only hard to micro as toss agnist a terran ramp early on if you attack move past the block lol other wise until the first 2 tanks pop toss is just giving the terran hell hell
Basically at liek 100apm level it 2 gate works like this hell 1 gate
terrran walls becuase he knows a zelot is too much to handel even with about the 2 3 rines he will have when the zelot comes.
The first zelot comes the wall is completed by now and the 2 rines are ready in hold position right behind the sd.
the toss player doesnt slow production he makes maybe 2 more zelots before the first goon timeing pops and by then the terran has maybe 4 rines to deal with 3 zelots he would make more the he needs the tanks for the goons
the 3 zelots run up the ramp wail on the sd not really careing about the rines even with ff they sd will burn down way before a zelot is downed.
The terran has to take a extra scv to repair the sd before it bruns down.
by the time the repair is done the first goon shows up and well it gets free hits on the sd because it shares range with rines to it can hit the sd without much retaliation also the goon can handel 1 2 rines that could get in range with fany high gorund poisitioning.
By then the toss has 2 gates and pop 2 more goons hell breaks loose now becuase you constally had to be 1 more scv to keep the other scv alive becuase the toss wails on that and the sd.
Pushing the first tank even further behind and by the time you get your tank out its out number 3 to 1 from the goons and you need to bring 3 4 scv to keep the sd and the tank alive long enough before the toss backs off and you pop another tank and get siege.
Basically that is low level terran vs toss hell
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On May 15 2008 14:58 ChaosKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:31 Reflex wrote:
Two gate vs Terran is really laughable, unless we're talking about proxies or maps like Longinus with no ramps. Really? A Protoss can just attack+move a few zealots into a Terran's base, not pay attention to them at all, and possibly do significant damage (provided there is no wall). The Terran will probably have 1-4 marines and be creating a factory. The Terran will probably lose the SCV making the Factory and thereby losing tech momentum, as well as (a) lose the marines and get pwnt, followed by losing tons of SCVs in defense, or (b) micro the marines while failing to consistently buy SCVs and having new ones mine, which then causes the Terran to lose economic momentum.
So are you affirming what I just wrote? I basically said that two gating PvT fails hard, unless it's on a map where the Terran can't wall... so I don't understand what you're trying to prove with what you said.
If you're talking about a map with ramps, then yes. The Terran can easily fend off an early zealot attack. A couple of marines with two hold position scvs, repairing each other is more than enough to shut down an early attack. Worse comes to worse, the Terran will just have to make a few more marines to stall until either a tank or scv comes out.
P.S- IzzyCraft, for god's sake man, lay off the drugs before you type!
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On May 15 2008 15:22 Reflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:58 ChaosKnight wrote:On May 15 2008 14:31 Reflex wrote:
Two gate vs Terran is really laughable, unless we're talking about proxies or maps like Longinus with no ramps. Really? A Protoss can just attack+move a few zealots into a Terran's base, not pay attention to them at all, and possibly do significant damage (provided there is no wall). The Terran will probably have 1-4 marines and be creating a factory. The Terran will probably lose the SCV making the Factory and thereby losing tech momentum, as well as (a) lose the marines and get pwnt, followed by losing tons of SCVs in defense, or (b) micro the marines while failing to consistently buy SCVs and having new ones mine, which then causes the Terran to lose economic momentum. So are you affirming what I just wrote? I basically said that two gating PvT fails hard, unless it's on a map where the Terran can't wall... so I don't understand what you're trying to prove with what you said. If you're talking about a map with ramps, then yes. The Terran can easily fend off an early zealot attack. A couple of marines with two hold position scvs, repairing each other is more than enough to shut down an early attack. Worse comes to worse, the Terran will just have to make a few more marines to stall until either a tank or scv comes out.
Lol you honestly think a terran with scrappy 100 apm can keep 2 scv repairing eachother and not screw up while he techs to tanks if the toss has any balls something like that is easly broken also your assumeing that the terran will get tanks out in time before the goons pop which is not usualy the case at the level he is talking about
Psh the only drugs i take is that i'm from cali with a care free attitude
i thought i whent over this i type while watching tv or reading lol so i dont really look or know if im typing something corrently
i rember i had to edit one post becuase it said like
wekk u fubd ut gard ti vekueve sinetgubg kuje tgat
well i find it hard to believe soemthign like that
had pos was off while typing lol
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On May 15 2008 15:22 Reflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 14:58 ChaosKnight wrote:On May 15 2008 14:31 Reflex wrote:
Two gate vs Terran is really laughable, unless we're talking about proxies or maps like Longinus with no ramps. Really? A Protoss can just attack+move a few zealots into a Terran's base, not pay attention to them at all, and possibly do significant damage (provided there is no wall). The Terran will probably have 1-4 marines and be creating a factory. The Terran will probably lose the SCV making the Factory and thereby losing tech momentum, as well as (a) lose the marines and get pwnt, followed by losing tons of SCVs in defense, or (b) micro the marines while failing to consistently buy SCVs and having new ones mine, which then causes the Terran to lose economic momentum. So are you affirming what I just wrote? I basically said that two gating PvT fails hard, unless it's on a map where the Terran can't wall... so I don't understand what you're trying to prove with what you said. If you're talking about a map with ramps, then yes. The Terran can easily fend off an early zealot attack. A couple of marines with two hold position scvs, repairing each other is more than enough to shut down an early attack. Worse comes to worse, the Terran will just have to make a few more marines to stall until either a tank or scv comes out.
Yes, I was stating that a Terran without a wall can be easily killed off. However, you are correct when you say that an effective wall can protect a Terran throughout the early-game: I doubt anyone would bother arguing over that matter. The latter section of my previous post addresses the rest of the game, however.
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I'm sorry Izzy, I'm not too familiar with the way Terrans play at D---.
I would hope that even a Terran with a "scrappy 100 apm" can hit 'R' on his keyboard and click, especially when only running one base.
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Me beating you Fusionsdf
[url blocked]
[url blocked]
those are the proofs that i beat you... and now im more of a fresh player and that apm is now even higher than ever :D
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On May 15 2008 15:30 Reflex wrote:
I'm sorry Izzy, I'm not too familiar with the way Terrans play at D---.
I would hope that even a Terran with a "scrappy 100 apm" can hit 'R' on his keyboard and click, especially when only running one base.
Apparently you idea of low level play is not as low as my idea of it lol
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intermediate protoss is the easiest
intermediate terran is the hardest
pro level terran is the easiest
pro level zerg is the hardest
imo
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On May 15 2008 01:18 8Pylon wrote:
ever try to break 30 tanks with vults being a protoss player?? or micro out of dark swarm?? e.e...
:p protoss is the hardest to master
drievan showed us a beautiful display of near perfection O_O
or i was mondragons lack of play..idk? either way i feel protoss is the hardest to master
wow two very bold statements: protoss is hardest to master, and mondragon not good?!
Although I hate to admit it but I'd have to say Terran.
TvZ, you just have to put so much focus on your army, and one little slip-up in your timing or formation can fuck the whole attack up. Unlike PvZ where there are times when you can get away with just A-clicking, TvZ requires your complete attention, and I also feel that it is much harder to macro because marines and medics are made so quickly and are so cheap, so it requires a bit more management to fully utilize all your money. And it only gets harder as the game progresses mainly because of swarm, which isn't as big a problem in PvZ imo.
TvP. This matchup is just hard because of your immobility during early/mid game and the annoyance of reaver harass. Also it's very hard to deal with toss players who decide to whore expansions when you go one fact -> CC, and get run over when you do eventually decide to push out. You can do a great deal of vulture harass to even the economy difference out but it's extremely easy for P players to defend against vulture harass, just a few well-placed cannons will do. Also carriers... Even with goliaths, the P player just needs to hit and run away to cliffs, whereas TvP players have to pull their hairs and run around the whole map with their goliaths and do a great deal of micro just to take down one of those damn blimps..
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Srsly here why must everyone rag on protoss it is a hard race to play no matter what level your at.....
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I voted Terran.
I think, of all races were micro/macroed by a computer perfectly, Terran would be unstopable.
At least, TvT would be exiting 
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intermediate = terran
pro = zerg
that whole larvae thing fucks with my head :S
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CA10828 Posts
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I'm sorry LosingID8 but I am just curious, how do you manage to post in the wrong thread?
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CA10828 Posts
On May 15 2008 18:44 SnowFantasy wrote:
I'm sorry LosingID8 but I am just curious, how do you manage to post in the wrong thread?
i had two tabs open and put my response in the wrong one
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Is there anything that makes protoss hard?
Im a p player now and its annoying whenever i win they just go "easy race" when they camp in a pvt >.>.
Also zerg.
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Terran seems hardest to me cause of all the reasons InC stated before.
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protoss are easiest imo
i chose t as hardest to master
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On May 15 2008 17:09 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:
Srsly here why must everyone rag on protoss it is a hard race to play no matter what level your at.....
Because Protoss might be hard compared to GDI, but compared to Terran mechanics or Zerg constant decision making in macro it is easy mode.
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the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem.
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I honestly think it's Zerg, controlling swarms of weak units is hard
Protoss is easy ~_~
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On May 15 2008 22:17 diehilde wrote:
the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem.
I thought Protoss required the most game sense?
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On May 15 2008 17:03 EpiK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 01:18 8Pylon wrote:
ever try to break 30 tanks with vults being a protoss player?? or micro out of dark swarm?? e.e...
:p protoss is the hardest to master
drievan showed us a beautiful display of near perfection O_O
or i was mondragons lack of play..idk? either way i feel protoss is the hardest to master wow two very bold statements: protoss is hardest to master, and mondragon not good?! Although I hate to admit it but I'd have to say Terran. TvZ, you just have to put so much focus on your army, and one little slip-up in your timing or formation can fuck the whole attack up. Unlike PvZ where there are times when you can get away with just A-clicking, TvZ requires your complete attention, and I also feel that it is much harder to macro because marines and medics are made so quickly and are so cheap, so it requires a bit more management to fully utilize all your money. And it only gets harder as the game progresses mainly because of swarm, which isn't as big a problem in PvZ imo. TvP. This matchup is just hard because of your immobility during early/mid game and the annoyance of reaver harass. Also it's very hard to deal with toss players who decide to whore expansions when you go one fact -> CC, and get run over when you do eventually decide to push out. You can do a great deal of vulture harass to even the economy difference out but it's extremely easy for P players to defend against vulture harass, just a few well-placed cannons will do. Also carriers... Even with goliaths, the P player just needs to hit and run away to cliffs, whereas TvP players have to pull their hairs and run around the whole map with their goliaths and do a great deal of micro just to take down one of those damn blimps..
Well in TvP the Flash build has lately freed up immobility early-mid game with the anti harass :O
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I played a zvt yesterday and it just reminded me how ridiculous that mu is for both sides. Little goofs can cost you a whole fucking army in less than 5 seconds. All the units are so fragile.
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i played protoss for what 3yrs?? and i thnk dey r easiest in terms of getting to master every unit/move but as for actually which race has it hardest against other races, its also protoss.. yeap terran needs more apm/micro and yes zrg needs solid macro and good engaging time but with protoss, you can master every unit, do every strategy and good macro and still lose.. its like, simply, in late games, protoss is always disadvantaged against zerg or terran.. lets see, crackling crazy overlord drop everywhere mass exand zrg or crazy 3/3 full up terran with 200/200 unit and just moving out with mass tank/gols.. hence, it may be easiest race to master, but the better you get at it, the harder you'll find to win with protoss.. S.I.G.H!!!!
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also, i thnk 4 dis reason, protoss players get critisised alot being called the noob race or the easy-mode but really.. its depressing to know the limit of the race and try desperately to kill the game b4 it gets to late imbal zrg/terran mode..
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Can't someone lock this thread already ???
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
On May 15 2008 22:17 diehilde wrote:
the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem.
olololol agreed
i'm so glad there are race icons so i can just ignore every protoss post
to make it even easier for me they should just change protoss icons to the attack move symbol
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What's so hard about a moving cracklings? or orange elephant stampedes of inviniciblity or giant laser shooting hammer head spaceships....
Protoss only have spiders filled with ice cream =(
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On May 15 2008 23:58 SuperJongMan wrote:
What's so hard about a moving cracklings? or orange elephant stampedes of inviniciblity or giant laser shooting hammer head spaceships....
Protoss only have spiders filled with ice cream =(
And, with the average temperature of Starcraft being above zero degrees...
Just rename thread "vote for whichever race you play!" and let's leave it at that.
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Canada9720 Posts
hey intrigue suck my balls
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I dare anyone to play protoss vs my terran/zerg and say that PvT/PvZ is easy after that. Also, saying that P >>>> T or T >>>> Z is just plain stupid and shows how little the person knows about the game. One can find arguments in favour of both terran and zerg and protoss at any given time.
But I guess it would be quite boring if everyone shared the same view on everything....
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Voted T. It really doesn't apply on pro level...I'm saying for example I told my T noob friend the other day to switch to P for contesting on WCG...great advice.
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The game's balanced guys, you all can QQ all you want
If it was as imbalanced as everyone in this thread seems to think, we all wouldn't still be playing this game and starcraft wouldn't be the most professionally played game in the world.
Tho I'm not gonna lie, there have definitely been times I've wanted to remove consume from the game.
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To me the Terran and Zerg have harder mechanics but the protoss players have to think the most and react accordingly to almost everything, while the T or Z have an array of options to surprise you with. Anyone who plays a decent level PvZ or has been cornered by a good terran contain/push knows protoss isn't easier then the other two races.
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They are is no hard race it all dependents on play style .
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/2 cents
On May 15 2008 12:56 ChaosKnight wrote:
In addition to my earlier post, I would also like to say that this type of poll is confounded waist-deep in shitty bias. Naturally, a person who votes in a poll like this will favor their own race, after all, who wants to play a race that is seen as "easy to master?"
To address something the ever-so eloquent ChaosKnight said earlier, discarding the polls as irrelevant data would be a naive statistical conclusion, a mistake I would expect only an intro to stat student to make.
Of course, you sneak in phrases such as "after all" to give credence to your apparently uncontroversial claim, but as most literary analysts would agree, the weakest part of an argument is one which appeals to intuition. It is so glaringly obvious you do not need to even provide a warrant.
But let's not be too quick to assume that people will always come to the rescue of their race. Sure, there is some negative stigma attached to playing a "noob" or "easy" race, but that is likely to only affect a small portion of the population. I would even go so far as to argue the opposite, that people will play "easy races to master" because well, they're easy to master. After all, who wants to lose? Just like with any sport, players will, over time, migrate into the position they're best at. We don't see Kobe playing center because he's simply not big enough. For Kobe, shooting guard is the easiest for him given his natural assets and abilities. If he were playing center, the harder "race" for him, the Lakers would almost certainly not be 3-2 against the Jazz (Go Lakers!).
Apart from that, even if some bias did in fact exist, that would have no statistical bearing on the results. See, from a statistical point of view, sampling bias would only be unfavorable if the bias is umm, biased. If there seems to be an even proportion of people voting in every category, then the bias is irrelevant.
One might say in response that "teh poles where biesd lulz lrn2 smrt", but think about it like this. There seems to be some agreement in the community, or at least not much disagreement, about this fact. A plurality of players, noob and pro, choose protoss as their main race. Why? A number of reasons.
First, (more applicable to noobs than pros) aside from the awkward circular power grid system, the protoss race is relatively uncomplicated (not to be mistaken with easy). The protoss tech tree is far more linear than terran and zerg. Terran tech requires new-comers to memorize add-ons and add-on requirements, and zerg tech is just a web affixed to a central nexus (not "the nexus" lulz). The simplicity of protoss tech might be lure enough for a completely new player to choose protoss over the other races.
Second, (also more applicable to noobs than pros) big numbers are appealing. People would rather be in control of 10 sexy gods-with-blades than 30 miniature dogs things. Maybe this is just anecdotal, but in my opinion, the human mind is more prone to perceiving big changes than small ones. We'd notice something like a bouncing ball more than a snail crawling on our sidewalks. Albeit tangentially, this would explain the attractiveness of the protoss race because it relies on the combination of large, powerful units as opposed to many more smaller units.
Third, although it might seem circular, the presence of a formidable protoss force in the proleagues may entice intermediate players to join the protoss league. If I find that kids taking AP classes at my school are getting into more and better colleges, I would want to take those classes myself. Even if it won't guarantee acceptance into Harvard or Yale, just like how protoss pros seldom win prestigious titles, it'll increase my chances of getting into an acceptable school.
So how does this apply to the bias in the polls? Well, if we accept that most players will play protoss, and if we likewise accept ChaosKnight's claim that players will not want to play a race considered "easy", then the polls would not have been so biased against the protoss. Essentially, if there did exist some bias in the way people voted, that people vote their own race as the hardest, we would expect the protoss race to garner the plurality of votes to reflect the plurality of protoss players. Since that did not happen we could conclude that the bias of the polls is not present and that people voted for the race they truly believed to be the hardest. Even as a protoss player I would agree without reservation that terran is pretty fucking hard.
Will respond to others later.
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all play protoss in a lame way,,, playing protoss like a pro its difficult, because a good terran and a good zerg are very complex matchup and the mirror its sick.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 15 2008 22:17 diehilde wrote:
the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem.
newb#1 ding ding ding ding
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On May 15 2008 22:17 diehilde wrote:
the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem.
And any competent player of any race would know what you said is a pile of shit.
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T or Z... toss is for noobs :D
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Our supply providers fly.
So do Corsairs.
Fuck.
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On May 15 2008 23:45 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 22:17 diehilde wrote:
the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem. olololol agreed i'm so glad there are race icons so i can just ignore every protoss post to make it even easier for me they should just change protoss icons to the attack move symbol
QFMFT
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Even if all races were exactly equal in how difficult it is to master them (which I don't believe - I think P is also the easiest here). It's still undeniable that P is the easiest to play on low levels.
This alone is enough to say that P is the easiest race overall (Easy macro; A few micro mistakes are tolerable because the units can take a punch; Generally fewer APM needed).
Of course saying it's a "noob race" is a bit harsh, because it also takes a lot of skill to master, but still, P is the easiest of the three. Plus, current maps tend to favor P.
I'm not surprised at all that P players are doing so damn well in non-Korean tournaments.
Non-Korean pros don't have the rigorous mechanics training the Korean pros get, so naturally P does best in the foreigner area, T worst, and Z is in the middle. We have very, very few successful Terrans. It's just too demanding on speed/mechanics to play well.
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On May 16 2008 15:07 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 23:45 intrigue wrote:On May 15 2008 22:17 diehilde wrote:
the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem. olololol agreed i'm so glad there are race icons so i can just ignore every protoss post to make it even easier for me they should just change protoss icons to the attack move symbol QFMFT
lol isnt the quote for you fusion
"whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss." lol
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United States10774 Posts
haha I never knew fusionsdf was such a dumbshit
but if I were as bad as him I would be bitter too ;p
those reps vs Darkmole = hilarity
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CA10828 Posts
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lmao going to watch those darkmole reps.
btw, darkmole ask if your brother knows me :D
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CA10828 Posts
lol OneOther why are you challenging me to 1v1, do you have to defend your honor or something
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United States10774 Posts
On May 16 2008 16:40 LosingID8 wrote:
lol OneOther why are you challenging me to 1v1, do you have to defend your honor or something
I said why I wanted to ;o
I thought it was normal to respond to a pm through pm, not by posting. but that's cool too.
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United States11393 Posts
50 votes for Protoss? Amazing.
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amazing because someone actually voted Protoss?
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exactly, weird thing ah
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Zer defenetly as you have to micro and macro the most since there tend be be a lot of hatcheries in mid to late game and is very hard to manage them all as well as do decent micro defending from storms, irradiate and so on...
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On May 16 2008 13:18 Seraphim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2008 22:17 diehilde wrote:
the only real statement this poll makes is which race is the noob race - protoss!
funny that only protoss users disagree, everybody who played zerg and terran knows that toss is for noobs. with terran u need insane mechanics to be good, with zerg u need good mechanics and good tactical understanding to go anywhere, while with protoss mediocre mechanics and a certain level of stupidity is not much of a problem. And any competent player of any race would know what you said is a pile of shit.
pf i guess playing in bwcl-1a would qualify me as a competent player u protoss nooob.
also interesting people say that its only a "what race do you play?" when the majority of non-kors play protoss. Why is protoss still the landslide loser of this poll when most users play protoss?
Cus every t/z votes for p to be the easiest and NOT for z/t. Of course, this can only be the case cus all t/z players are delusional and only the p players got a grip on reality when it comes down to judging the difficulty of their own race...
As others said, on pro level it is a whole different story, the lack of flexibility is a disadvantage at pro level, but it makes the race much easier up to that level.
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On May 16 2008 15:13 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Even if all races were exactly equal in how difficult it is to master them (which I don't believe - I think P is also the easiest here). It's still undeniable that P is the easiest to play on low levels.
This alone is enough to say that P is the easiest race overall (Easy macro; A few micro mistakes are tolerable because the units can take a punch; Generally fewer APM needed).
Of course saying it's a "noob race" is a bit harsh, because it also takes a lot of skill to master, but still, P is the easiest of the three. Plus, current maps tend to favor P.
I'm not surprised at all that P players are doing so damn well in non-Korean tournaments.
Non-Korean pros don't have the rigorous mechanics training the Korean pros get, so naturally P does best in the foreigner area, T worst, and Z is in the middle. We have very, very few successful Terrans. It's just too demanding on speed/mechanics to play well.
yeah my german fellow got it right imo.
Almost all foreigners dont have more than 220apm constantly. With protoss that is enough to put up a -relatively- flawless game, while with Z and T it just doesnt cut it against a good P who is using his speed as efficiently as you are.
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On May 16 2008 16:46 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2008 16:40 LosingID8 wrote:
lol OneOther why are you challenging me to 1v1, do you have to defend your honor or something I said why I wanted to ;o I thought it was normal to respond to a pm through pm, not by posting. but that's cool too.
lol
Im really glad you dont post a lot since I would have to shoot myself if I had to put up with your stupidity
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for some reason I'm more comfortable using Terran and Protoss. Zerg isn't just meant for me... lolol ^^;;
But since I'm a Terran player, I find Protoss just a bit slower for me and harder to think of what to do next :/
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id have to say intermediate is terran and pro is zerg.
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On February 08 2009 22:42 xenom00t wrote:
id have to say intermediate is terran and pro is zerg.
great first post
welcome
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Protoss is hardest on current map pool ;7
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nvm... realized it's an old thread... -_-
Terran is hard
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PROTOSS!
Terran's are just whiny bitches.
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On May 15 2008 00:54 JudgeMathis wrote:
i think T would be the hardest race to play.
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These threads never ever turn out nicely.
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terran is soooo hard for newer players... hands down
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hmmm....I actually find it easier to win with zerg than terran when I playe games because zerg has so many effective cheeses they can pull at lower levels.
All three races have they're difficulties but protoss is definately the easiest. I've personally had more luck using zerg than terran, but there are people who would say its the other way around.
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i think Z requires the hardest skill set to play because good is micro is demanded or u will get raped since Z units are so weak (other than possibly ultra/ling 1a2a3a)
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vote for your favourite race guys
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What I want to know is how people even find these threads.
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ive played all the races at about a d+ level. None of them are harder than each other. They are all rather straightforward and simplistic mechanically and strategically, and the difficulty of the mechanics and strategy would presumably increase at a consistent rate as one improves their capabilities. They all have some match up's, or things that prove difficult uniquely to them, but that doesn't make it harder or easier overall. They just take different play styles and mindsets to get good at.
If one race was easier/harder than the other race, then at the pro gaming level that race would dominate. This is a career for them, so naturally they will pick the race they are best at, and would give them the greatest chance at success. Players, top players as well, are practically evenly divided amongst the races. If anything there is a bias towards good Terran players, but hardly enough for us to conclusively state Terran is the easiest race, or even hint at it.
They are equal. Ten years and our own individual experiences have taught us that, even though some idiots may be immature and scream 1a2a3a or something equally as ridiculous.
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well, thats y the op capitalized intermediate. yes, at the pro level, they are equal and must be equal, otherwise we would not love starcraft so much. but i think he is talking about which hill is stepper to lets say, the C-B rank on iccup. In that sense, it is a bit harder to reach that with terran/zerg, but not by much. there is a simple matter y terran is the hardest race, you must use spells in every matchup. stim, mines, seige, irradiate, emp.
for protoss, u can surely get through a game w/o using spells
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On February 09 2009 06:19 Fontong wrote:
What I want to know is how people even find these threads.
I guess I'm glad that they used the button.
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has to be T or Z, but definitely not P
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zerg by far. easiest to be mediocre with, extremely hard to be pro with. having a good sense of timing, knowing when to build what units with the limited larvae, knowing when to make more hatches and where (inside base just for more larvae or expo as well), i think its really hard to do all this. plus zerg micro is just as hard if not harder than the other races. also zerg always has to be on top of things and never has a 'oh i fucked up but i still have a han bang' like toss and terran do against zerg.
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On February 09 2009 06:16 Hazz wrote:
vote for your favourite race guys
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Zerg confuses me. Should I build drones or should build fighters. It's just too mysterious.
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APM are not a joke to improve in midle/low lv if you are not mega nerd.
Around 250/300 real APM (like 200 EAPM) race become real ballanced ^^
Well ofc Terran becouse need more APM in low/middle lv
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Katowice25012 Posts
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i think zerg. terran are to easy to turtle and kind of pretend to play well.
its why i pay zerg. i feel it gives me more of an excuse to suck. and i think they are under-represented.
and as intermediate vs. pro- id say it goes all around. zergs i think are the best in the hands of a great great player, but still, the HARDEST to play.
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It depends on the matchup. It's impossible to say that one race is that much harder than another...terran requires the deepest mechanics by a small margin, I think, though. Especially in TvZ, where a bit of miss-micro can cost you your army, and missing a production round can cost you map control and totally kill your macro. ZvT is equally hard, though. It's very difficult to develop the proper game sense and to react accordingly. Same goes for ZvP...but PvZ is also VERY difficult...etc etc.
It depends on the person and whichever race they have more of an affinity towards. Then whatever race they DONT have an affinity towards will probably be the most difficult for them.
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On February 09 2009 06:52 Person514cs wrote:
Zerg confuses me. Should I build drones or should build fighters. It's just too mysterious.
This... is the main reason I voted Zerg.
How can Terran be the most difficult race when it's always up to the opposing race to stop the unstoppable ball...
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I would say Terran because the strategies you have to use against each race are more drastically different than any other race, along with all the management needed and the fact that some normal armies are almost completely dependent on 3 or so units using their special abilities.
Zerg is hard, but it has the same groundwork on all 3 matchups and the deviation is not as far spread.
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Depends on the matchup, the level you play at and to some extent the map.
For all intents and purposes the races are all equally difficult I would say :o
On February 09 2009 07:44 Shikyo wrote:
How can Terran be the most difficult race when it's always up to the opposing race to stop the unstoppable ball...
Because both Zerg and Protoss have the chance to outexpand and severely outmacro the Terran before the "unstoppable" ball comes in to play.
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United States3824 Posts
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On February 09 2009 07:48 KsiretsA wrote:
I would say Terran because the strategies you have to use against each race are more drastically different than any other race, along with all the management needed and the fact that some normal armies are almost completely dependent on 3 or so units using their special abilities.
Zerg is hard, but it has the same groundwork on all 3 matchups and the deviation is not as far spread. zvp is pretty fucking different from zvz. ZVT is also way different than the other two match ups...
You know I wonder if even a quater of the people talking about xyz race has even played xyz race on a serious degree, at all?
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On February 09 2009 09:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 07:48 KsiretsA wrote:
I would say Terran because the strategies you have to use against each race are more drastically different than any other race, along with all the management needed and the fact that some normal armies are almost completely dependent on 3 or so units using their special abilities.
Zerg is hard, but it has the same groundwork on all 3 matchups and the deviation is not as far spread. zvp is pretty fucking different from zvz. ZVT is also way different than the other two match ups... You know I wonder if even a quater of the people talking about xyz race has even played xyz race on a serious degree, at all?
You completely missed my point.
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On February 09 2009 09:21 KsiretsA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 09:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On February 09 2009 07:48 KsiretsA wrote:
I would say Terran because the strategies you have to use against each race are more drastically different than any other race, along with all the management needed and the fact that some normal armies are almost completely dependent on 3 or so units using their special abilities.
Zerg is hard, but it has the same groundwork on all 3 matchups and the deviation is not as far spread. zvp is pretty fucking different from zvz. ZVT is also way different than the other two match ups... You know I wonder if even a quater of the people talking about xyz race has even played xyz race on a serious degree, at all? You completely missed my point. No I did not.
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On February 09 2009 07:48 KsiretsA wrote:
I would say Terran because the strategies you have to use against each race are more drastically different than any other race, along with all the management needed and the fact that some normal armies are almost completely dependent on 3 or so units using their special abilities.
Zerg is hard, but it has the same groundwork on all 3 matchups and the deviation is not as far spread.
You're completely clueless.
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The hardest is Terran. The softest is Zerg. Protoss is somewhere in the middle with their squishy Archons and not so squishy Zealots.
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On February 09 2009 13:40 Ozarugold wrote:
The hardest is Terran. The softest is Zerg. Protoss is somewhere in the middle with their squishy Archons and not so squishy Zealots.
What is the physical composition of an Archon?
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On February 09 2009 13:56 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 13:40 Ozarugold wrote:
The hardest is Terran. The softest is Zerg. Protoss is somewhere in the middle with their squishy Archons and not so squishy Zealots.
What is the physical composition of an Archon?
They feel like cotton balls.
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I think that Terran is the hardest race unless they go mech vs zerg, cause that's just WAY easier than bio vs zerg, and in that case I'd have to vote for Zerg as being harder.
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On February 09 2009 13:26 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 09:21 KsiretsA wrote:On February 09 2009 09:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On February 09 2009 07:48 KsiretsA wrote:
I would say Terran because the strategies you have to use against each race are more drastically different than any other race, along with all the management needed and the fact that some normal armies are almost completely dependent on 3 or so units using their special abilities.
Zerg is hard, but it has the same groundwork on all 3 matchups and the deviation is not as far spread. zvp is pretty fucking different from zvz. ZVT is also way different than the other two match ups... You know I wonder if even a quater of the people talking about xyz race has even played xyz race on a serious degree, at all? You completely missed my point. No I did not.
Then why do I see you respond to an argument that says Terran is more different in the matchups than Zerg with an argument that says Zerg is different in matchups?
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On February 09 2009 14:01 cujo2k wrote:
I think that Terran is the hardest race unless they go mech vs zerg, cause that's just WAY easier than bio vs zerg, and in that case I'd have to vote for Zerg as being harder.
For me bio is much easier? I can't play mech even if my life depended on it. It's individual
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Zerg over Terran a fair bit imo, just because you gotta macro and micro with Zerg, and with Terran you can do a lot more with just good micro. However stop lurkers and good muta micro can make it kinda rough for Terran, so I wouldn't say they are necessarily easy either. Though it's a lot easier to screw around with the Zerg as a Terran (proxies, blocking ramp and making zerg guess what is going on, etc.). On the other hand, the only real cheese zerg has is any pool below 9.
Protoss is simply not included in the argument. I know that by experience because I switched from toss to zerg a few months ago, and I really realized how little I knew about the game back as a toss (hell I'm not even good now, but you guys get my point).
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Well honestly protoss is out of the question so the arguement is just between Z and T. For a long time I've always had a lot of respect for good foreign zergs and I've always considered it difficult to play. ZvZ is a frustrating and unforgiving matchup (although not as boring as TvT) and is much more difficult to win. ZvP seemed impossible from a terran standpoint as I watch any zerg get rolled over by a protoss who sits there with his dick in his hand in his base the entire game. ZvT I always thought was a fun matchup and equally difficult for both races.
Nowadays though I'm honestly leading towards terran. ZvT honestly to me seems easier and easier every game I play against a zerg. Dark swarm control at first seemed so difficult but now its just so fucking imbalanced. Now that I play with zergs with upwards of 220 apm It feels like all they have to do is run lurkers in and put swarms up. No need for expansions, macro, anything. Just mass lurkers and get a few defilers with swarm. Any terran who goes SK just loses because Its so fucking hard to try to constantly kill lurkers with marines while macroing from a ton of barracks. Heavy tank is kind of easy vrs zerg but zerg just kills vessels and you are fucked because it seems like the zerg has so much more map control in the mid game and its impossible to take a third base. ZvP Protoss have just been getting raped lately, the 5 hatch spire+hydra bo is so fucking strong that any zerg can just sit on lair and mass hydras and have a chance vrs protoss now. Still takes decent amount of micro or macro but it just seems loads easier now.
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My records:
P: 5/21
Z: 6/24
T: 3/147 (/quit SC)
Using that HUGE sampling size () I'll go as far to say that Terran is the hardest race for me to play.
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It just proves that you completly suck with any race. At also proves that terran is the hardest to play on the lowest noob level.
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from my experience, I think Z is hardest.
I really have a big time with the hive tech .. specially defiler >
And I also find it hard to manage larva vs drone vs units.. I always end up with to many drone and not enough units..
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Zerg is the hardest solely because of how little room for error there is compared to the other races. then when you add how hard their micro is most of the time(lurkerling, muta control, muta vs scourge), the terren ball(MnM not EZPZ mech shit) is the only other thing that can compare.
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Korean is the hardest race to play.
srsly imo:
Hardest Mechanics: Terran
Hardest Base Management: Zerg
Hardest to Avoid Being Flamed for Playing: Protoss
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nothing wrong with protoss, its just as difficult to play, otherwise protoss would be dominating everywhere, and competitions would be just pvp and it would be called the "golden age of protoss" or some crap, and that would NEVER happen.
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On February 10 2009 03:14 Kleander wrote:
nothing wrong with protoss, its just as difficult to play, otherwise protoss would be dominating everywhere, and competitions would be just pvp and it would be called the "golden age of protoss" or some crap, and that would NEVER happen.
Protoss isn't dominating as much as they used to.
Look at current MSL and OSL brackets.
Protoss is still easiest to play but that doesn't mean they're imba. Protoss can still lose.
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Protoss is just like every other race, there isnt an EASY button that Mondy uses, you have to play hard to get something, just look at the recent MSL Qualifiers, only 2 Tosses out of 25 players. You kidding me ?
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On February 10 2009 03:17 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2009 03:14 Kleander wrote:
nothing wrong with protoss, its just as difficult to play, otherwise protoss would be dominating everywhere, and competitions would be just pvp and it would be called the "golden age of protoss" or some crap, and that would NEVER happen. Protoss isn't dominating as much as they used to. Look at current MSL and OSL brackets. Protoss is still easiest to play but that doesn't mean they're imba. Protoss can still lose.
how are they easy to play if the protoss players aren't winning?
Yes they are maybe easier to pick up, and they are maybe "simpler" but in reality, they all are just as hard.
The game is as hard as your opponent makes it to be
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Personally I find Z to be the hardest. The economy is very different from T and P, and is far harder to get a hang of since you have to balance drones with army units. Generally they are quite hard to micro as well, since the units are very weak and speed differs alot between the units.
T and P is the same to me. T have more units if they're going bio, but that doesn't make them any harder to play imo. With P you have to be more careful with microing individual units like reavers and templars, which doesn't feel as necessary with T. Only problem I have with T is sometimes mixing up the O and I keys, making me miss siege and lay mines.
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Protoss has the simplest and most straightforward mechanics out of the three races...the macro is straightforward, as is the micro. That's why everyone pisses on them for being the easiest; which at the lowest levels is true, but saying that ease pervades all the way to the top levels totally denies the abilities of the likes of Bisu and Jangbi and Stork and all of them.
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France231 Posts
I'd say it's terran, because the mechanics are much harder to get.
then again, everyone has nearly perfect mechanics at pro level, so it doesn't matter any more. But at lower level it sure has an impact.
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United States3824 Posts
I have to say this is a 4chan quality thread
an interesting discussion question would probably be more specific, like how is midgame Terran micromanagement comperable to Zerg and Protoss?" Just because the UBB gods granted you the right to make a poll doesn't mean you always have to use it.
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T at all levels of play,
On certain maps or in certain style clashes Z
never protoss..
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Intermediate (D- to C-) = Terran
Advanced (C to olympic) = Zerg
Pro = Protoss
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
I can play protoss at a D level with 70 apm.
I can play terran at a D level with 90 apm.
I can play zerg at a D level with 120 apm.
Just because a race is easy to play doesn't mean its players will dominate necessarily.
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The amount of these 50-75apm D+ protoss players is astonishing.
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lowest level - zerg
intermediate - terran
pro - protoss
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Monkeys dont yell for Aiur.
Protoss is hard in some senses, as you must always be on the move. Or else you will end up like the Conclave
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It fluctuates until decently high levels (b- and above).
I cant speak for protoss because i dont play it often, other than that, when i do, i find im really slow at everything, its not 'easy'.
But in zvt/tvz which i both play, i find that, around the C/C+ ranks, terran has it simpler, mechanics aside, the gameplan for terran is easier to follow, its easier to know what to do next, how to get back in the game, managing the econ is easier i mean just keep making scvs until your multitask lets you, expand soon after your first vessel push, etc.
Its easier for terran to get a BO win, for example, if you perfect an attack that comes before 10:00, you will probably breeze through any zerg in the C ranks, while a 3 hatch muta will never kill a terran your level, will not even give you a sizeable advantage unless he fucks up, timing attacks function better for terran than for zerg, and probably better too than for protoss.
Below that level, probably zerg has it a bit easier, terran hasnt got a clue about decent build orders, or simply isnt even good enough to emulate them, stuff like a good timed 3 hatch muta can really fuck him up and his multitask is probably not enough to compete, either he macroes or microes, hard for him to do something in between.
Above that level, in the blue ranks, BO advantages even out and its just about who has the better mechanics. At even higher levels, i believe terran is just about having better and better mechanics and zerg has to aim for a better game sense, even trying to outsmart him.
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Hardest race by far is protoss, because hotkey for probe is p which is on the other side of the keyboard away from 1.
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in my experience, Terran is the most exacting in terms of mechanics (not only do you you need strong mechanics, but you are punished severely for mistakes).
Zerg however, is difficult in my eyes primarily because it requires a lot of experience to play. Things like larvae management make it a lot less straightforward than other races.
I consider those two races to be the most difficult, but for different reasons.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 03 2009 03:19 MuR)Ernu wrote:
how are they easy to play if the protoss players aren't winning?
Yes they are maybe easier to pick up, and they are maybe "simpler" but in reality, they all are just as hard.
The game is as hard as your opponent makes it to be
The thread specifies a specific skill level, at which Protoss is still relatively easy to play compared to the other races. The reason that "ease of play" doesn't factor into pro-level play is because at high levels, basic mechanics/base management are irrelevant because all players have them. At lower levels, however, a protoss player has much easier time controlling these elements.
A (over)simplification would be to say that while the 3 races have similar skill ceilings, Protoss has a much easier learning curve to reach that ceiling. Protoss players advance in ability (in the sense of being able to win games) at lower levels much faster than their Zerg and Terran counterparts.
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Zerg imo. just so much you have to do
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On April 03 2009 11:26 infinity2k9 wrote:
Zerg imo. just so much you have to do
Same for all races, even protoss.
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switched to terran because zerg was too hard imo. not only do they have a lot to do mechanically but strategically they seem disadvantaged in every area. there's always a new build that is discovered used to counter zerg. the recent popularity in meching ZvT and the stupid +1 speed archon push just pisses me off because i was finally getting used to the hang of bio zvt and sair/dt zvp. i used to go into every game with the mindset that i would have to severely outplay my opponent to win - simply because i was a zerg.
now terran is not so bad. i feel like i have a distinct advantage in tvz (especially on Destination) and pvt feels pretty even. protoss is just gay.
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The archon speedlot push is pretty easy to deal with now.
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cant believe people complaining about zvp now lolol
try playing PvZ at C+ +++ level right now...then tell me its easy
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On April 03 2009 11:31 redtooth wrote:
switched to terran because zerg was too hard imo. not only do they have a lot to do mechanically but strategically they seem disadvantaged in every area. there's always a new build that is discovered used to counter zerg. the recent popularity in meching ZvT and the stupid +1 speed archon push just pisses me off because i was finally getting used to the hang of bio zvt and sair/dt zvp. i used to go into every game with the mindset that i would have to severely outplay my opponent to win - simply because i was a zerg.
now terran is not so bad. i feel like i have a distinct advantage in tvz (especially on Destination) and pvt feels pretty even. protoss is just gay.
I don't know about that.
It seems to me that because of the way zerg produce their units that if you have two players playing in god mode the zerg player almost always wins it. Zerg have the exact tools that when played right is just impossible to counter. Swarm/Plague are probably the two most powerful spells in the game when used correctly.
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Lower levels protoss is easiest than zerg than terran. In the lower levels macro is most important.
Protoss has a fairly simple macro system. Pylons and gateways build very fast and since the units build the slowest protoss have to go back to macro the least. Also when everyones macro is around the same level protoss will be the best because their units are the strongest.
Zerg knowing when to make drones and when to make units is hard but overall the 3 larvae system is very forgiving to bad macro.
Terran is the hardest because not only are most of the units cheap they build very fast so terran has to constactly go back to their base to macro.
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On April 03 2009 11:50 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Lower levels protoss is easiest than zerg than terran. In the lower levels macro is most important.
Protoss has a fairly simple macro system. Pylons and gateways build very fast and since the units build the slowest protoss have to go back to macro the least. Also when everyones macro is around the same level protoss will be the best because their units are the strongest.
Zerg knowing when to make drones and when to make units is hard but overall the 3 larvae system is very forgiving to bad macro.
Terran is the hardest because not only are most of the units cheap they build very fast so terran has to constactly go back to their base to macro.
LOL.
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On April 03 2009 11:52 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2009 11:50 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Lower levels protoss is easiest than zerg than terran. In the lower levels macro is most important.
Protoss has a fairly simple macro system. Pylons and gateways build very fast and since the units build the slowest protoss have to go back to macro the least. Also when everyones macro is around the same level protoss will be the best because their units are the strongest.
Zerg knowing when to make drones and when to make units is hard but overall the 3 larvae system is very forgiving to bad macro.
Terran is the hardest because not only are most of the units cheap they build very fast so terran has to constactly go back to their base to macro. LOL.
nice post
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It's really hard to generalize like this. Within every match-up it is dependent upon what strategy you do and what you happen to be good at.
I think that once everyone has the fundamentals down it is dependent on how well you can multi-task and it doesn't matter what race you are.
That said protoss probably has the easiest fundamentals so at D level P might be easier but once everyone learns to time their depots/pylons/overlords and macro it really evens out.
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Old post, but in my opinion:
Beginning: Terran,
Mid level: Terran/Protoss/Zerg - all about the same
Pro level: Zerg.
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At the pro level, Protoss has the least titles. And least players in top 30. That's how hard it is to master with this race at that level. Now, for beginners and mid-level of course it's the easiest race.
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United States5262 Posts
Umpteenth time I've seen this.
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On April 03 2009 11:14 Spyfire242 wrote:
Hardest race by far is protoss, because hotkey for probe is p which is on the other side of the keyboard away from 1.
lol
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On April 03 2009 17:41 arbiter_md wrote:
At the pro level, Protoss has the least titles. And least players in top 30. That's how hard it is to master with this race at that level. Now, for beginners and mid-level of course it's the easiest race.
Yep I tihnk you are right. P seems to be the hardest on pro level while Terran have been dominating in everyway so according to stats alone P is the hardest and T is the easiest. Do I belive that is the case? No I don't. It just happen ot be that Terran have got better players. They are equally hard and they all have their hard and easy sides.
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For me terran is the hardest, protoss easiest, I play zerg.
I can't judge any other way because only the players who play their race could say it otherwise.
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Terran is hardest, especially TvZ. There isn't a lot of opportunities for incredible comebacks, your power is based solely with your army and you have to make sure you have a good unit mixture.
Zerg is the medium difficulty, outside of ZvZ. The larvae mechanic is hard to manage, especially early game. It gets pretty good units and you can turn around a game with good Defiler control, Crackling snipes, Detector Snipes, etc. It's also the easiest race to change unit production, but losing tech buildings can make you vulnerable.
Protoss is easy difficulty. It's the easiest race to expand, with the best static defenses and the best building method. Multiple ways to harass from manner pylons, to DTs, and Reaver/HT drops. Gateways are the second most versatile producing building, behind Hatcheries. Carriers...
But the margin between the three isn't that much and all are very hard to use at a high-level.
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That's easy: Zerg is the hardest race by far. Nowadways you need very good micro with Zerg, for example MutaMicro and Defiler-ZergglingMicro. Additionally the Macro and Tactics are very difficult with Zerg, you need much experience to make the right decisions.
Strategy mistakes won't be forgiven as a Zergplayer.
Terran needs much micro too, but the strategic aspect is really low or even at zero. Only depends on your macro/micro. Compared to earlier times (~ 4 Years ago) Terran is not the most micro intense race anymore, but Zerg.
Protoss is just lol, I played Protoss for a long long time - nowadays with the macro oriented FE-Playstyle they are the easiest race by far. Easy macro, and micro is even more easy.
But Protoss players need way more tactical knowledge as Terran players.
Of course this counts only for C+/B+ Level, dunno about A and Progamer-Level.
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I think it is really pretty even and just depends on what style you prefer.
Sure T might have to go abck to base more often to pump marines or vulture/tank/gols but that is easy. Who can't do that, as long as you remember to do it. T is so defensive it creatues quite a forgiving environment for macro even though they have to do it more often. P, however, can lose everything to mines/tanks in early game or contains can be broken and all goons dead. Sure it's easy to macro back up and you do it less often but it is pretty much equivalent. For Z I think they have it tough here with vulnerable units but again they get to make 3-6 at a time. This is just regarding what many people are saying about macroing up an army - of course the macro dealing with decision making, building construction, and expanding, etc. is a different story again but I'd say Z gets rorted the most in this aspect.
For micro they are all roughly similar, at the lower level of play you can just a move with any army and it can do OK as long as you choose the right place and the right time to engage. Again I'd say it is trickier for Z but depends on what style of play suits you best (people might not like having to react and defend, but that doesn't mean it is harder).
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I think it is really pretty even and just depends on what style you prefer.
Sure T might have to go abck to base more often to pump marines or vulture/tank/gols but that is easy. Who can't do that, as long as you remember to do it. T is so defensive it creatues quite a forgiving environment for macro even though they have to do it more often. P, however, can lose everything to mines/tanks in early game or contains can be broken and all goons dead. Sure it's easy to macro back up and you do it less often but it is pretty much equivalent. For Z I think they have it tough here with vulnerable units but again they get to make 3-6 at a time. This is just regarding what many people are saying about macroing up an army - of course the macro dealing with decision making, building construction, and expanding, etc. is a different story again but I'd say Z gets rorted the most in this aspect.
For micro they are all roughly similar, at the lower level of play you can just a move with any army and it can do OK as long as you choose the right place and the right time to engage. Again I'd say it is trickier for Z but depends on what style of play suits you best (people might not like having to react and defend, but that doesn't mean it is harder).
Relating back to this play style notion, just because a race is thought to be harder doesn't mean that someone playing a 'harder' race could switch to another and instantly be better at it than other people who play it. It may mean that someone coming from an easier race and switching to a harder one might need more time but still it doesn't mean you will be better so arguing which is harder is useless. If you are naturally drawn to or skilled at a certain play style in the game then that will have more impact on what race you perform best with rather than how hard they all are relative to each other.
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On April 03 2009 19:52 SkyTheUnknown wrote:
Terran needs much micro too, but the strategic aspect is really low or even at zero.
troll or an idiot?you sound like you never played anything but zerg.
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"my race is the hardest to play so even if you did just beat me i still beat you, so there."
rinse, repeat
*picard facepalm*
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Terran, macro is harder because you can only build 1 unit at a time (compared to zerg)(edit: so if you fall behind on micro for a few seconds you can't catch back up), and every building requires telling a different SCV for each building (zerg make overlords and protoss probes can warp in infinite buildings at once). Also, in order to make certain buildings useful you need to place an addon
also terran micro is harder, because T units are pretty much useless without their abilities (think tanks not in siege mode and unstimmed marines), and if you misclick and have say a vulture or a sieged tank in your group of unsieged tanks you can't siege them. heeeeeecka annoying
another annoying thing is that getting drop for terran doesn't lie within the standard tech tree for matchups, for example, protoss need robo bay for observers anyway and zerg have overlords, but terrans usually don't get starports until later in the game, and often have to get them specifically for drop (and they're useless for other purposes, cuz wraiths + BCs = fail)
Finally terran don't have any cheap ez mode units. A single dt or lurker unscanned can take out an entire army really quickly without micro.
basically terran has a lot of mechanic issues that require more APM, and that makes it harder
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On April 03 2009 19:53 iCCup.deL wrote:
I think it is really pretty even and just depends on what style you prefer.
Sure T might have to go abck to base more often to pump marines or vulture/tank/gols but that is easy. Who can't do that, as long as you remember to do it. T is so defensive it creatues quite a forgiving environment for macro even though they have to do it more often. P, however, can lose everything to mines/tanks in early game or contains can be broken and all goons dead. Sure it's easy to macro back up and you do it less often but it is pretty much equivalent. For Z I think they have it tough here with vulnerable units but again they get to make 3-6 at a time. This is just regarding what many people are saying about macroing up an army - of course the macro dealing with decision making, building construction, and expanding, etc. is a different story again but I'd say Z gets rorted the most in this aspect.
For micro they are all roughly similar, at the lower level of play you can just a move with any army and it can do OK as long as you choose the right place and the right time to engage. Again I'd say it is trickier for Z but depends on what style of play suits you best (people might not like having to react and defend, but that doesn't mean it is harder).
You're underestimating the exacting nature of terran. If you siege your tanks half a second too late, you just lost. If you push 40 seconds too late you lose.
There is an overwhelming number of things that a terran player must not just do, but do very well in order to just be ok. Which is why terran is the hardest on low levels.
On mid levels once Terran's know all those required things and when to push, its a lot more even. But there are many many very tiny mistakes that can pretty much lose a game for terran
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Terran macro is easier than Zerg macro
Zerg micro is easier than Terran micro
Because Z needs to balance out exact ratio of drones/ fighting units coming outta hatchery. Make too little drones in the beginning and you have poor economy. Terran and Protoss has a seperate building that lets you constantly build workers non-stop (CC / Nexus) which will give you good economy, not to mention every Z building you make, you lose a drone in the process.
But I dislike micro'ing with Terran, it takes too much babysitting
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Every race has things that are hard and things that are easy.
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On April 03 2009 11:29 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2009 11:26 infinity2k9 wrote:
Zerg imo. just so much you have to do Same for all races, even protoss.
Huh? How is it the same? Simply for the fact you have so many more units to control and they all die so quickly. Thats clearly more to do. Its not opinion its just fact.
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Also let me guess the people saying Terran play mostly Terran. I play T but i can admit that Z is harder. People saying its so easy to make mistakes and lose a game with T... wtf? Its often you can see a T in TvZ manage to
comeback with only 2 bases because their units manage to tear through anything and you can afford a lot of units from just 2 base. You lose too many Zerg units early on and its game over, plus you need to have 3 or more bases just to keep up.
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i voted terran, but zerg is a close second. zerg's counter to MnM needs to be timed right to trap the MnM, and on the other side if the MnM get caught by lurkers just for a second they're toast.
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On April 04 2009 05:44 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2009 11:29 Spyfire242 wrote:On April 03 2009 11:26 infinity2k9 wrote:
Zerg imo. just so much you have to do Same for all races, even protoss. Huh? How is it the same? Simply for the fact you have so many more units to control and they all die so quickly. Thats clearly more to do. Its not opinion its just fact.
I used to think so too, then I stopped being such an idiot.
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i think that toss is the easiest to play but the easiest to get defeated.
i would choose zerg as the hardest race because i really cant muta control and play zvt
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Terran cuz the units need so much baby-sitting in all MUs.
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On April 03 2009 19:58 iCCup.deL wrote:
Sure T might have to go abck to base more often to pump marines or vulture/tank/gols but that is easy. Who can't do that, as long as you remember to do it.
Well there is nothing inherently difficult about dropping a DT or casting a Dark Swarm either, but when you have to do it in busy situations, and your screen can only be on one part of the map at a time, it's very difficult in the sense that you are limited by time and actions
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Terran have vultures. Protoss have DTs. Zerg have... nothing like that.
In seriousness, it depends entirely on the person which race will be hardest for them to play. There's no universally easier or more difficult race. I think though, you'd find a higher number of people who find Protoss easier than any other race.
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On April 04 2009 09:20 Chef wrote:
Terran have vultures. Protoss have DTs. Zerg have... nothing like that.
In seriousness, it depends entirely on the person which race will be hardest for them to play. There's no universally easier or more difficult race. I think though, you'd find a higher number of people who find Protoss easier than any other race.
Zerg has Filers and Ultras :D
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On April 04 2009 09:27 SpriteLove wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 09:20 Chef wrote:
Terran have vultures. Protoss have DTs. Zerg have... nothing like that.
In seriousness, it depends entirely on the person which race will be hardest for them to play. There's no universally easier or more difficult race. I think though, you'd find a higher number of people who find Protoss easier than any other race. Zerg has Filers and Ultras :D
defilers and ultra ruin me
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On April 03 2009 20:09 drug_vict1m wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2009 19:52 SkyTheUnknown wrote:
Terran needs much micro too, but the strategic aspect is really low or even at zero.
troll or an idiot?you sound like you never played anything but zerg.
It really is straight-forward if you choose to play that way. You don't have to stop to think what to do all that often. Of course that's generalizing, but compared to other races that's pretty true.
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if oyu said protoss, please go kill yourself.
If you say zerg well youre still wrong.
its terran. looooll zerg has fucking lurkers. marines have like no hp, marine micro, vessel micro, keep scout alive, unsiege siege, and not to mention, were the most prone to rushes like zeal rushes as well as early ling rushes.
Yes, yes zerg has mutas. I for one, really don't find muta micro hard if there isnt latency. That might be just me.
Ill admit though, zerg takes osme management, but really its terran.
and then theres protoss. The linux of starcraft.
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Marine micro is really, really easy. It's like riding a bike really. Much harder to utilize lurkers once Terran figures out he doesn't have to put all his rines in a nice juicy ball.
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On April 04 2009 09:42 RaptuhJeezus wrote:
if oyu said protoss, please go kill yourself.
If you say zerg well youre still wrong.
its terran. looooll zerg has fucking lurkers. marines have like no hp, marine micro, vessel micro, keep scout alive, unsiege siege, and not to mention, were the most prone to rushes like zeal rushes as well as early ling rushes.
Yes, yes zerg has mutas. I for one, really don't find muta micro hard if there isnt latency. That might be just me.
Ill admit though, zerg takes osme management, but really its terran.
and then theres protoss. The linux of starcraft.
The difficult thing about ZvT is, if you don't engage correctly, nothing dies. And 1m2m3m4m1t2t3t4t1a2a3a4a isn't that difficult after a while.
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On April 04 2009 09:42 RaptuhJeezus wrote:
if oyu said protoss, please go kill yourself.
If you say zerg well youre still wrong.
its terran. looooll zerg has fucking lurkers. marines have like no hp, marine micro, vessel micro, keep scout alive, unsiege siege, and not to mention, were the most prone to rushes like zeal rushes as well as early ling rushes.
Yes, yes zerg has mutas. I for one, really don't find muta micro hard if there isnt latency. That might be just me.
Ill admit though, zerg takes osme management, but really its terran.
and then theres protoss. The linux of starcraft.
What? I thought linux was hard to use because you have to know about computers or something... I've never used so I dunno though.
Also, you sound like some angry noob terran player.
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Protoss because aldaris is boring as hell!
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On April 04 2009 09:42 RaptuhJeezus wrote:
if oyu said protoss, please go kill yourself.
If you say zerg well youre still wrong.
its terran. looooll zerg has fucking lurkers. marines have like no hp, marine micro, vessel micro, keep scout alive, unsiege siege, and not to mention, were the most prone to rushes like zeal rushes as well as early ling rushes.
Yes, yes zerg has mutas. I for one, really don't find muta micro hard if there isnt latency. That might be just me.
Ill admit though, zerg takes osme management, but really its terran.
and then theres protoss. The linux of starcraft.
Terran is pretty hard to play but its only micro thats annoying. Terran macro is incredibly easier than Zerg macro. And even Zerg micro gets equal to Terran's in late game (Scourge pick off, plague, swarm, cannot 1a2a3a, MUST flank as Z or units die easily, Muta micro, lurkerling micro)
All in all, I think Terran is easier to play than Zerg. By just a little bit
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Why is there no "there is no hardest race" option? In my opinion, all three are difficult to master.
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On April 04 2009 01:38 AzureEye wrote:
Terran macro is easier than Zerg macro
Zerg micro is easier than Terran micro
Because Z needs to balance out exact ratio of drones/ fighting units coming outta hatchery. Make too little drones in the beginning and you have poor economy. Terran and Protoss has a seperate building that lets you constantly build workers non-stop (CC / Nexus) which will give you good economy, not to mention every Z building you make, you lose a drone in the process.
But I dislike micro'ing with Terran, it takes too much babysitting
Late game macro is going to be easier for the zerg player as they don't have to worry so much about perfect timing as they do to reaction to their opponent's recent maneuvers. Later in the game all the zerg has to do is select all/click unit and now you have 12 units of that type in the time it would take one terran to queue up a few units of the same type in single factory/barracks. Also, baby-sitting can be done with a few extra actions per minute spread out over a certain length of time in that minute, nothing that you wouldn't be doing anyhow.
And yes, all three are difficult to master, but some have different difficult aspects about them then others do... they are different types of play.
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I definately think vs an equally skilled terran player that lategame I have a much easier job.
Building on 7 rax alone all game is hard enough. Now add swarm-plague-lurkers-nydus-scourge and you have a fucking apm meltdown on your hands.
I voted terran since everyone of there matchups is ungodly hard. While zerg and protoss both have an 'easy' matchup.
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Protoss needs to be under pressure almost all the time.
In tvp, the terran army is super scary.
In pvz, you need to spend a lot of time, not knowing what your opponent is doing (unless you own thim with uber probescouting).
PvP is just annoying at times because you need to worry about DT's
But anyways, i thnk that the races are equally hard.
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People actually voted for Protoss, I'm surprised :x
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On April 05 2009 14:44 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Protoss needs to be under pressure almost all the time.
In tvp, the terran army is super scary.
In pvz, you need to spend a lot of time, not knowing what your opponent is doing (unless you own thim with uber probescouting).
PvP is just annoying at times because you need to worry about DT's
But anyways, i thnk that the races are equally hard.
D.T. Drop. yeah, really hard.
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Correct me if I'm wrong...but hasn't it already been agreed that terran is hardest race?
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The lack of good foreign terrans makes this obvious. And no one can really think toss is harder to play than zerg, thus this poll is accurate in terms of rankings.
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I play T and I think its by far the hardest. I play P on occasion and I can make so many mistakes and come back from it. Zerg I havent really played enough to say so but I know that a lot of zergs wins are my mistakes like accidently walking my army into lurkers when I'm macroing so id say they have it easier.
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On April 05 2009 17:54 MachineHead wrote:
The lack of good foreign terrans makes this obvious. And no one can really think toss is harder to play than zerg, thus this poll is accurate in terms of rankings.
What lack ? Last i check it was a terran who got WCG's third place. Strelok beat Lx for third place if i'm not mistaken . Also Super beat Lx in the ESWC . All russian terrans are a force - Brat_OK , Androide , A2 , Ex . There are many more great foreigner terrans . Even our WCG was won by terran - Lamer .
Idra is considered a foreginer too .
I would say gosu foreign zergs are fewer , but thats because i can't remember them all :/ . F91 , Mondragoon , Dinot , Castro , Gosia ..... Are the ones who pop in my mind right now .
From the very start protoss seems the easiest when you get to C levels at iccup i think their equally hard .
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On April 05 2009 17:54 MachineHead wrote:
The lack of good foreign terrans makes this obvious. And no one can really think toss is harder to play than zerg, thus this poll is accurate in terms of rankings.
if you think about it you will realize theres just as many good foreign terrans as zergs
try to argue, i wana hear it
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On April 05 2009 18:15 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 17:54 MachineHead wrote:
The lack of good foreign terrans makes this obvious. And no one can really think toss is harder to play than zerg, thus this poll is accurate in terms of rankings. What lack ? Last i check it was a terran who got WCG's third place. Strelok beat Lx for third place if i'm not mistaken . Also Super beat Lx in the ESWC . All russian terrans are a force - Brat_OK , Androide , A2 , Ex . There are many more great foreigner terrans . Even our WCG was won by terran - Lamer . Idra is considered a foreginer too . I would say gosu foreign zergs are fewer , but thats because i can't remember them all :/ . F91 , Mondragoon , Dinot , Castro , Gosia ..... Are the ones who pop in my mind right now .
good post actually u posted this same time as i did haha
i was asking the guy to provide the list but you helped him out
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another thing people dont realize is that "good foreign zerg"( lets take castro for instance) is not that good at all
few zergs like mondi and gosia and f91, maybe xiaozi on a good day can produce games that actually make sense and based off macroing( can last longer then 12 minutes), but almost everybody else is lacking major components
just watch castro or dinot play, theres many vods out there
they often have no clue wtf they doing, few builds they win with are all-inish. And people like target, machine, oystein would not be on that list of best foreigners just yet( id put chosen in there too)
foreign terran capable of winning vs a sick korean, foreign protoss is too. Foreign zerg? fuck no
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and fuck, i dont even remember a foreign zerg that could zvt besides sen( when was that lol?) and f91
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When's the last time a foreign Terran has won a foreign league? I've played most of these guys, and if these guys are on the same level as the top foreign zergs and toss players, I feel pity for us. Strarcraft is the most balanced RTS for a reason; there are good terran players, albeit most seem to be from Russia... but in terms of difficulty -- terrans hardly win anything at the foreign level. If you read the recent news post on gosugamers.net, Artosis was dead on -- with practice time being equal, the Terran will be at a disadvantage.
The only question is how big of a differential there is between terran and zerg in terms of difficulty. It's not a big deal, and I don't think anyone can put their finger on that exact difference, thus these threads are pointless.
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On April 05 2009 18:34 MachineHead wrote:
When's the last time a foreign Terran has won a foreign league? I've played most of these guys, and if these guys are on the same level as the top foreign zergs and toss players, I feel pity for us. Strarcraft is the most balanced RTS for a reason; there are good terran players, albeit most seem to be from Russia... but in terms of difficulty -- terrans hardly win anything at the foreign level. If you read the recent news post on gosugamers.net, Artosis was dead on -- with practice time being equal, the Terran will be at a disadvantage.
The only question is how big of a differential there is between terran and zerg in terms of difficulty. It's not a big deal, and I don't think anyone can put their finger on that exact difference, thus these threads are pointless.
you take artosis opinion on racial imbalance for granted? come on, even he doesnt believe everything he says on that matter LOL
what guys have you played? and who are you then? brat_ok i believe won the TSL or got 2nd? he steamrolled through it. A2 used to win shitloads when he cared to play. Androide can beat anyone. Ex is a beast too. You remember how many chinese terrans are out there? Pheonix( i think thats his name), Super? These are top notch players and they do win A LOT. What about Idra? he just destroyed one of the best foreign zergs in humiliating fashion. FUCK, Strelok, Tarson, Raven.
arerials is on the rise, theres many many GOOD terrans like nyoken, nesh, artosis himself( he might want to be in the upper category), sawyer etc
i believe you were the one who stated how hard terran was, now you saying these threads cannot be solved and are pointless lol!
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I gave a few sentences saying it was obvious, then I regrettably (I guess) responded to others' comments. What is the point, exactly? I say terran is the hardest, you say... there are good terrans, so you no longer have a point. A pointless circle. It doesn't take much practice time to knock off most of the these terrans you name. Most people are able to agree that the races are balanced in terms of potential strength; most races, statistically, have a winning edge in a mu and a deficit in another, leaving the balanced mirror mu.
To reach the level of being good enough to win foreign events, a monkey could see that the climb to that level has been harder for Terran players. Your list looks like a list comprised of 90% fail... as they don't aid your point at all, assuming you were trying to make one.
Idra couldn't win TSL. Idra couldn't win USA WCG. The list goes on. That is not a slight or a bash against Idra; I believe the underlying reason behind results like that is the same reason terran is winning this poll for "hardest race." My opinion is in the majority, and for good reason. Before even attempting a rebuttal, should prob try to examine why you are wrong. Because, personally, I don't care if you can't see the obvious.
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On April 05 2009 19:27 MachineHead wrote:
I gave a few sentences saying it was obvious, then I regrettably (I guess) responded to others' comments. What is the point, exactly? I say terran is the hardest, you say... there are good terrans, so you no longer have a point. A pointless circle. It doesn't take much practice time to knock off most of the these terrans you name. Most people are able to agree that the races are balanced in terms of potential strength; most races, statistically, have a winning edge in a mu and a deficit in another, leaving the balanced mirror mu.
To reach the level of being good enough to win foreign events, a monkey could see that the climb to that level has been harder for Terran players. Your list looks like a list comprised of 90% fail... as they don't aid your point at all, assuming you were trying to make one.
Idra couldn't win TSL. Idra couldn't win USA WCG. The list goes on. That is not a slight or a bash against Idra; I believe the underlying reason behind results like that is the same reason terran is winning this poll for "hardest race." My opinion is in the majority, and for good reason. Before even attempting a rebuttal, should prob try to examine why you are wrong. Because, personally, I don't care if you can't see the obvious.
SIR
artosis qualified to wcg world finals from usa 2 or 3 times,. so did nyoken, so did yosh, so did froz, so did lastgosu. They all terrans, SIR
doesnt take much time to knock top terrans out and you played all of them. LMAO shut the fuck up.
/ninja edited
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On April 05 2009 20:00 food wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 19:27 MachineHead wrote:
I gave a few sentences saying it was obvious, then I regrettably (I guess) responded to others' comments. What is the point, exactly? I say terran is the hardest, you say... there are good terrans, so you no longer have a point. A pointless circle. It doesn't take much practice time to knock off most of the these terrans you name. Most people are able to agree that the races are balanced in terms of potential strength; most races, statistically, have a winning edge in a mu and a deficit in another, leaving the balanced mirror mu.
To reach the level of being good enough to win foreign events, a monkey could see that the climb to that level has been harder for Terran players. Your list looks like a list comprised of 90% fail... as they don't aid your point at all, assuming you were trying to make one.
Idra couldn't win TSL. Idra couldn't win USA WCG. The list goes on. That is not a slight or a bash against Idra; I believe the underlying reason behind results like that is the same reason terran is winning this poll for "hardest race." My opinion is in the majority, and for good reason. Before even attempting a rebuttal, should prob try to examine why you are wrong. Because, personally, I don't care if you can't see the obvious. you are retarded. case closed.
I'm not exactly sure i see the benefit in responding to his perfectly good counterpoint by insulting him and attempting to end the discussion
on topic i voted for T :/ for reasons that have already been argued in this thread lol
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zerg is pretty straightforward until B. Terran it's mad hard to get out of C, but once you do its alot easier.
So I'd say T at an intermediate level and zerg once you start getting good.
(P.S. Toss is harder than T at B+/A- :p)
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If Protoss is not that hard to master than T or Z then everyone would play P and win easily.
Well, that's a no-brainer then. I'll definietly gonna play protoss and get easier wins! But, you know, somehow we don't see protoss winning every single game. Starcraft is extremely balanced and I think every race has an equal number of players.
Are you guys saying that intermediate players that play T or Z are somehow better than the P players of the corresponding difficulty level?
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On April 05 2009 20:13 Tintti wrote:
Are you guys saying that intermediate players that play T or Z are somehow better than the P players of the corresponding difficulty level?
Yes
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On April 05 2009 20:14 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 20:13 Tintti wrote:
Are you guys saying that intermediate players that play T or Z are somehow better than the P players of the corresponding difficulty level? Yes
And this means that if these players swiched to P, they would kick some ass? :D
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Netherlands4511 Posts
Zerg so hard.....
Terran so ez.....
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On April 05 2009 20:16 ret wrote:
Zerg so hard.....
Terran so ez.....
you don't play TvP :p
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Norway28726 Posts
zerg is hardest
terran harder than toss but way easier than zerg
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hardest is clearly protoss.....you have to place ur storms well and much more
while zerg for example just need to 1a2a3a
and terran just needs to press o for siege or t for stim without clicking a spot on the floor like with storm
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United States11393 Posts
On April 05 2009 21:44 MasterReY wrote:
hardest is clearly protoss.....you have to place ur storms well and much more
while zerg for example just need to 1a2a3a
and terran just needs to press o for siege or t for stim without clicking a spot on the floor like with storm
You're a few days late for April Fools.
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On April 05 2009 21:44 MasterReY wrote:
hardest is clearly protoss.....you have to place ur storms well and much more
while zerg for example just need to 1a2a3a
and terran just needs to press o for siege or t for stim without clicking a spot on the floor like with storm
The hardest isn't 'clearly' anything, it's all kind of cryptic and open to interpretation.
Anyway, speaking for terran I could tell you that it's a lot harder than just 'pressing o for siege or t for stim' without even clicking a spot on the floor... because most of the time you're clicking several spots on the floor.
Unit spread and placement is essential to a terran more so than a protoss IMO because what a protoss should be doing for the most part would be building his army so it can proceed to push as one great force, where a terran must be able to counter that army. Believe me, if a terran just clicked the move button and 'o' for siege to counter any army, the terran would be decimated without having killed hardly anything...
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z by a longshot
i dont get why t is even considered.
esp if you look at tvz mu and how even the pros say its in favor for terran
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On April 05 2009 23:50 stack wrote:
z by a longshot
i dont get why t is even considered.
esp if you look at tvz mu and how even the pros say its in favor for terran
What? Try reading the topic, based on votes you'll find more than half of the people here believe terran should not only be considered but that terran is the hardest race. I can't really understand the rest of what you're trying to say.
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On April 05 2009 17:44 Creationism wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 14:44 MuR)Ernu wrote:
Protoss needs to be under pressure almost all the time.
In tvp, the terran army is super scary.
In pvz, you need to spend a lot of time, not knowing what your opponent is doing (unless you own thim with uber probescouting).
PvP is just annoying at times because you need to worry about DT's
But anyways, i thnk that the races are equally hard. D.T. Drop. yeah, really hard.
Why do terrans whine so much about dt drop?
Fend it of and you can steamroll toss with ease...
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On February 09 2009 14:39 KsiretsA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 13:26 Dazed_Spy wrote:On February 09 2009 09:21 KsiretsA wrote:On February 09 2009 09:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On February 09 2009 07:48 KsiretsA wrote:
I would say Terran because the strategies you have to use against each race are more drastically different than any other race, along with all the management needed and the fact that some normal armies are almost completely dependent on 3 or so units using their special abilities.
Zerg is hard, but it has the same groundwork on all 3 matchups and the deviation is not as far spread. zvp is pretty fucking different from zvz. ZVT is also way different than the other two match ups... You know I wonder if even a quater of the people talking about xyz race has even played xyz race on a serious degree, at all? You completely missed my point. No I did not. Then why do I see you respond to an argument that says Terran is more different in the matchups than Zerg with an argument that says Zerg is different in matchups?
Oh wow what are you talking about? That is a perfect arguement for your post, you claimed that the race which has the most diverse builds based on matchups is terran and Dazed disagreed and said that zerg is the most effected by matchups.
Oh and zerg is much harder, zerg is the only race where you can't bolster your economy and army at the same time because they both require larvae which are limited at any given point in time.
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On April 05 2009 18:34 MachineHead wrote:
When's the last time a foreign Terran has won a foreign league? I've played most of these guys, and if these guys are on the same level as the top foreign zergs and toss players, I feel pity for us. Strarcraft is the most balanced RTS for a reason; there are good terran players, albeit most seem to be from Russia... but in terms of difficulty -- terrans hardly win anything at the foreign level. If you read the recent news post on gosugamers.net, Artosis was dead on -- with practice time being equal, the Terran will be at a disadvantage.
The only question is how big of a differential there is between terran and zerg in terms of difficulty. It's not a big deal, and I don't think anyone can put their finger on that exact difference, thus these threads are pointless.
When's the last time you saw a foreign zerg in Korea?
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assuming, early - midgame and nothing fancy like drops etc.
hatchery -> hotkey for workers and combat units and supplies
nexus, gateways -> 2 hotkeys for accessing workets and other combat units
cc, barracks, factory -> 3 hotkeys for workers and other combat units
dont flame right away, just stating something
i play random btw
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On April 06 2009 01:10 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 18:34 MachineHead wrote:
When's the last time a foreign Terran has won a foreign league? I've played most of these guys, and if these guys are on the same level as the top foreign zergs and toss players, I feel pity for us. Strarcraft is the most balanced RTS for a reason; there are good terran players, albeit most seem to be from Russia... but in terms of difficulty -- terrans hardly win anything at the foreign level. If you read the recent news post on gosugamers.net, Artosis was dead on -- with practice time being equal, the Terran will be at a disadvantage.
The only question is how big of a differential there is between terran and zerg in terms of difficulty. It's not a big deal, and I don't think anyone can put their finger on that exact difference, thus these threads are pointless. When's the last time you saw a foreign zerg in Korea?
Is IdrA honestly better than the top foreign Zergs like Mondragon or F91?
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On April 05 2009 21:53 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 21:44 MasterReY wrote:
hardest is clearly protoss.....you have to place ur storms well and much more
while zerg for example just need to 1a2a3a
and terran just needs to press o for siege or t for stim without clicking a spot on the floor like with storm You're a few days late for April Fools.
LOL
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Terran requires the most apm, considering you have to handle a sizable army, and remember to be constantly producing and building.
With Zerg you have to be mindful of larva and timings, and you have to balance your drone count really well, which you dont need to do as terran.
I voted terran because its so hard to manage an army during fights (especially tvz) with my tiny 130 apm.
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United States10774 Posts
On April 06 2009 00:19 G5 wrote:
P obv
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Zerg:
Macro buildings aren't near each other
Larva Management
Dodging storms
Securing 3rd gas
Lots of gas needed
Less of a "robot" style play
Drones are the weakest workers (SCVs have more hp, probes have faster regeneration)
Terran:
Micro rines to kill lurkers
Medics are retarded
Good tank/mine placement
More of a "robot" style play (Following 1 BO until midgame can work up to C level)
Must have a successful 1st push
Protoss:
Reaver Micro
Goons melt to tanks
Defending Terran Pushes
Good storm placement
Must have good macro
W/e you think is the hardest to learn. People say that Protoss is easiest because all of the things that are hard for protoss are things people are better at. SC is now at a macro era, and who doesn't like 15 gates pumping goons, lots, and hts?
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at intermediate skill level idk i'd say terran is hardest.. at pro level its zerg.. just my opiniion
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I think it's all balanced on the highest level depending on the maps but goddamn ZvT and ZvP always look completely impossible to me when they go to the late game.
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On April 06 2009 01:10 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 18:34 MachineHead wrote:
When's the last time a foreign Terran has won a foreign league? I've played most of these guys, and if these guys are on the same level as the top foreign zergs and toss players, I feel pity for us. Strarcraft is the most balanced RTS for a reason; there are good terran players, albeit most seem to be from Russia... but in terms of difficulty -- terrans hardly win anything at the foreign level. If you read the recent news post on gosugamers.net, Artosis was dead on -- with practice time being equal, the Terran will be at a disadvantage.
The only question is how big of a differential there is between terran and zerg in terms of difficulty. It's not a big deal, and I don't think anyone can put their finger on that exact difference, thus these threads are pointless. When's the last time you saw a foreign zerg in Korea?
When was the last time any foreigners did anything in Korea.
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I'd say terran is hardest on a foreign level of play.
Simply because PvT is quite easy on this level and most players suck at TvT.
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Probes dont regenerate faster than drones, at a significant rate anyway, whoever hits first in a drone vs probe battle wins.
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On April 05 2009 18:34 MachineHead wrote:
When's the last time a foreign Terran has won a foreign league? I've played most of these guys, and if these guys are on the same level as the top foreign zergs and toss players, I feel pity for us. Strarcraft is the most balanced RTS for a reason; there are good terran players, albeit most seem to be from Russia... but in terms of difficulty -- terrans hardly win anything at the foreign level. If you read the recent news post on gosugamers.net, Artosis was dead on -- with practice time being equal, the Terran will be at a disadvantage.
The only question is how big of a differential there is between terran and zerg in terms of difficulty. It's not a big deal, and I don't think anyone can put their finger on that exact difference, thus these threads are pointless. Are you actually saying Artosis is credible on race balance?
He whines about Terran being hard.
That's like his job.
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i'm pretty sure terran is hardest at the intermediate level, but the hardest at pro level is probably zerg. Simply because Muta Micro is completely useless nowadays (well, almost), and you need to have a large amount of skill with your lurker placements, or else they'll get sniped. Its hard to keep a defiler alive for longer than the time it takes to cast a DS, and most players are great at fending off something cheesy like a 4 or 5 pool.
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Actually at pro-gaming level are races are balanced.
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just change this thread's title to "which race do you play?"
much more accurate
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D.T. Drop. yeah, really hard.[/QUOTE]
Why do terrans whine so much about dt drop?
Fend it of and you can steamroll toss with ease...
[/QUOTE]
Yeah because everyone knows that protoss goes into pause mode after DT drop...
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On April 05 2009 20:13 Tintti wrote:
If Protoss is not that hard to master than T or Z then everyone would play P and win easily.
Well, that's a no-brainer then. I'll definietly gonna play protoss and get easier wins! But, you know, somehow we don't see protoss winning every single game. Starcraft is extremely balanced and I think every race has an equal number of players.
Are you guys saying that intermediate players that play T or Z are somehow better than the P players of the corresponding difficulty level?
This argument makes no sense. Not everyone likes to take the easiest way, because it's not as rewarding. Why do people play hard games? Why play starcraft instead of an easier RTS where you don't have to macro? People like a challenge. Its more satisfying to get my zerg up to D+ level than my protoss.
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On April 06 2009 05:06 inertinept wrote:
just change this thread's title to "which race do you play?"
much more accurate
You nailed it.
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On April 06 2009 00:21 Skeptic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 23:50 stack wrote:
z by a longshot
i dont get why t is even considered.
esp if you look at tvz mu and how even the pros say its in favor for terran What? Try reading the topic, based on votes you'll find more than half of the people here believe terran should not only be considered but that terran is the hardest race. I can't really understand the rest of what you're trying to say.
? Learn to take your own advice...I know that half the people here believe terran is the hardest race..that is why I felt compelled to post my opinion.
I mean try thinking for a sec; if terran was voted easiest would my fucking post be relevant to the topic? Think first.
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On April 06 2009 03:06 dhe95 wrote:
Zerg:
Macro buildings aren't near each other
Larva Management
Dodging storms
Securing 3rd gas
Lots of gas needed
Less of a "robot" style play
Drones are the weakest workers (SCVs have more hp, probes have faster regeneration)
Terran:
Micro rines to kill lurkers
Medics are retarded
Good tank/mine placement
More of a "robot" style play (Following 1 BO until midgame can work up to C level)
Must have a successful 1st push
Protoss:
Reaver Micro
Goons melt to tanks
Defending Terran Pushes
Good storm placement
Must have good macro
W/e you think is the hardest to learn. People say that Protoss is easiest because all of the things that are hard for protoss are things people are better at. SC is now at a macro era, and who doesn't like 15 gates pumping goons, lots, and hts?
Drones have a ranged attack.
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On April 06 2009 13:48 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2009 03:06 dhe95 wrote:
Zerg:
Macro buildings aren't near each other
Larva Management
Dodging storms
Securing 3rd gas
Lots of gas needed
Less of a "robot" style play
Drones are the weakest workers (SCVs have more hp, probes have faster regeneration)
Terran:
Micro rines to kill lurkers
Medics are retarded
Good tank/mine placement
More of a "robot" style play (Following 1 BO until midgame can work up to C level)
Must have a successful 1st push
Protoss:
Reaver Micro
Goons melt to tanks
Defending Terran Pushes
Good storm placement
Must have good macro
W/e you think is the hardest to learn. People say that Protoss is easiest because all of the things that are hard for protoss are things people are better at. SC is now at a macro era, and who doesn't like 15 gates pumping goons, lots, and hts? Drones have a ranged attack.
i was sure probes were the only worker units with a ranged attack i might be wrong though are you sure drones do as well?
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On April 06 2009 14:11 Manbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2009 13:48 Spyfire242 wrote:On April 06 2009 03:06 dhe95 wrote:
Zerg:
Macro buildings aren't near each other
Larva Management
Dodging storms
Securing 3rd gas
Lots of gas needed
Less of a "robot" style play
Drones are the weakest workers (SCVs have more hp, probes have faster regeneration)
Terran:
Micro rines to kill lurkers
Medics are retarded
Good tank/mine placement
More of a "robot" style play (Following 1 BO until midgame can work up to C level)
Must have a successful 1st push
Protoss:
Reaver Micro
Goons melt to tanks
Defending Terran Pushes
Good storm placement
Must have good macro
W/e you think is the hardest to learn. People say that Protoss is easiest because all of the things that are hard for protoss are things people are better at. SC is now at a macro era, and who doesn't like 15 gates pumping goons, lots, and hts? Drones have a ranged attack. i was sure probes were the only worker units with a ranged attack i might be wrong though are you sure drones do as well?
Looked it up and they all have the same range, 1, so never mind what I said.
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for the record here, probes may have good regeneration but drones regenerate one hp the instant they are attacked therefore making them stronger against vulture raids(3 hits instead of 2 to a probe, and obviously scvs are invincible w/ 60 hp).
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On April 06 2009 14:11 Manbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2009 13:48 Spyfire242 wrote:On April 06 2009 03:06 dhe95 wrote:
Zerg:
Macro buildings aren't near each other
Larva Management
Dodging storms
Securing 3rd gas
Lots of gas needed
Less of a "robot" style play
Drones are the weakest workers (SCVs have more hp, probes have faster regeneration)
Terran:
Micro rines to kill lurkers
Medics are retarded
Good tank/mine placement
More of a "robot" style play (Following 1 BO until midgame can work up to C level)
Must have a successful 1st push
Protoss:
Reaver Micro
Goons melt to tanks
Defending Terran Pushes
Good storm placement
Must have good macro
W/e you think is the hardest to learn. People say that Protoss is easiest because all of the things that are hard for protoss are things people are better at. SC is now at a macro era, and who doesn't like 15 gates pumping goons, lots, and hts? Drones have a ranged attack. i was sure probes were the only worker units with a ranged attack i might be wrong though are you sure drones do as well?
Yes, drones do have ranged attack, just slightly a bit more but having a better attack only really matters in early game where you don't have much fighting units. Actually an SCV which has 60 life, is about equal in fighting strength to a 40 life slightly ranged, because being able to drone micro is not easy period, in addition, you're busy macroing in early game.
Either way, that ranged part is useless late game, I'd rather have 60 life workers because it makes your workers that much more durable. Storm drops, vulture harrass, splash damage at workers, they are much more significant than your worker having slightly more range when you won't even use them to fight at late game.
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On May 15 2008 00:55 fusionsdf wrote:
its certainly not fucking protoss
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On April 06 2009 05:20 Tintti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2009 05:06 inertinept wrote:
just change this thread's title to "which race do you play?"
much more accurate You nailed it.
not really or protoss would be at 90 instead of 10%
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On April 06 2009 13:36 stack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2009 00:21 Skeptic wrote:On April 05 2009 23:50 stack wrote:
z by a longshot
i dont get why t is even considered.
esp if you look at tvz mu and how even the pros say its in favor for terran What? Try reading the topic, based on votes you'll find more than half of the people here believe terran should not only be considered but that terran is the hardest race. I can't really understand the rest of what you're trying to say. ? Learn to take your own advice...I know that half the people here believe terran is the hardest race..that is why I felt compelled to post my opinion. I mean try thinking for a sec; if terran was voted easiest would my fucking post be relevant to the topic? Think first.
I read the topic. In the topic there's plenty of reasons why Terran should be considered. In your post you said you didn't understand why Terran should even be considered and so I told you how to find out. The problem I had with it is that you didn't go into why you feel the way you do so to me your post fits into the category of mindless posts that say something like 'this is obvious' or 'it is this race'. There's so many of them that half this topic is probably half devoid of content.
It looked like you said something about zerg being in pros' favor but I couldn't understand it.
Because you said you didn't understand why Terran should even be considered that meant to me that you haven't read the topic where most people say why.
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I think this point is worth repeating:
On April 04 2009 10:44 Tom Phoenix wrote:
Why is there no "there is no hardest race" option? In my opinion, all three are difficult to master.
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On April 07 2009 11:45 Tom Phoenix wrote:I think this point is worth repeating: Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 10:44 Tom Phoenix wrote:
Why is there no "there is no hardest race" option? In my opinion, all three are difficult to master.
Because people care a lot about their epenis.
And most people on TL don't have the resolve to go past D+ on ICCUP, so rather than actually learn the game, they decide to main Zerg or Terran, play one or two games a day, then spend the rest of their lives bashing Protoss and saying how it's the easy race and how they would be S class progamers if they switched to Protoss.
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On April 07 2009 12:25 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2009 11:45 Tom Phoenix wrote:I think this point is worth repeating: On April 04 2009 10:44 Tom Phoenix wrote:
Why is there no "there is no hardest race" option? In my opinion, all three are difficult to master. Because people care a lot about their epenis. And most people on TL don't have the resolve to go past D+ on ICCUP, so rather than actually learn the game, they decide to main Zerg or Terran, play one or two games a day, then spend the rest of their lives bashing Protoss and saying how it's the easy race and how they would be S class progamers if they switched to Protoss.
By putting them below you through exaggeration you have put yourself above them and by doing so your post has become what you just described as contemptful.
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i hate these things... my friend thinks the races have things they need more. like protoss needs micro more or something..
honestly all races need everything. therefore all races have the same level of technical difficulty. even  BoxeR said in his biography (or autobiography) that he chose wtvr was easiest for him.
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On April 06 2009 14:22 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2009 14:11 Manbear wrote:On April 06 2009 13:48 Spyfire242 wrote:On April 06 2009 03:06 dhe95 wrote:
Zerg:
Macro buildings aren't near each other
Larva Management
Dodging storms
Securing 3rd gas
Lots of gas needed
Less of a "robot" style play
Drones are the weakest workers (SCVs have more hp, probes have faster regeneration)
Terran:
Micro rines to kill lurkers
Medics are retarded
Good tank/mine placement
More of a "robot" style play (Following 1 BO until midgame can work up to C level)
Must have a successful 1st push
Protoss:
Reaver Micro
Goons melt to tanks
Defending Terran Pushes
Good storm placement
Must have good macro
W/e you think is the hardest to learn. People say that Protoss is easiest because all of the things that are hard for protoss are things people are better at. SC is now at a macro era, and who doesn't like 15 gates pumping goons, lots, and hts? Drones have a ranged attack. i was sure probes were the only worker units with a ranged attack i might be wrong though are you sure drones do as well? Looked it up and they all have the same range, 1, so never mind what I said.
they all have ranged attack (why none of them do damage under swarm), and its all officially range 1, but the actual range is
probe>drone>scv
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
Im protoss Player
Zerg is the Hardest race and....
For me Terran is the Easy Race cause you only need a Good BO to beat TvP and TvZ
i dont know why many ppl says that Macro T is so HArd,
but if a Protoss Player dont Micro+Macro Properly Vs Vultures + mines + Turrent + Siege
Terran just need to hold on with vulture to block Zealot Run to tanks and that all
and instant GG,
Terran Can Beat A Toss only With two Bases 5 Factory push i dont see the hardest on it
Terran have much more easy Timming than Toss
if toss do 14 nexus-->> 2 Fact push
if toss take quick 3rd,-->> 4 or 5 factory push
Terran doesnt have many openings like Protoss
TErran only have 3 or 4 openings Toss maybe like 10 and Terran dont need to remember a lot of BO, cause they always do the samething over and over and over
and because of that Toss get in troubles when they do a risky build
Terran doesn`t have an risky build, can some one tell me a Risky build in TvP???
Terran can do Fast Exp and takecare of it easy 4Rines+Tank+ Mines or Siege Tank
toss in early Stages cant do anything to Terran here, unless Terran is a noob a dont scout fine
mistakes fuck u up so bad with Toss
Zerg is The Hardest RAce
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On May 15 2008 02:08 perisie xx wrote:
toss is difficult because
a) you are the responder - you need to understand the other 2 races aswell as your own, otherwise you insta lose.
this applies to more than just scouting and builds and timing and unit mix and attacking/defending
b) you might think toss micro is "easier" because there are less uits, but a single mistake (shuttle, goons to mines) will cost you the game. this is also true of macro (especially early game).
if you have a single one less unit than you should have at a certain time then gg. T might not give a shit if he has 3 rines instead of 4 with his vult and tank, but if toss´s single goon is late or in the wrong place then gg
i love you
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Protoss is very hard to learn... like that part where you press the "1" key and then press "a" and then left click... that gets me every time when I offrace.
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On April 07 2009 13:54 Zozma wrote:
Protoss is very hard to learn... like that part where you press the "1" key and then press "a" and then left click... that gets me every time when I offrace.
lol
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On April 05 2009 20:16 ret wrote:
Zerg so hard.....
Terran so ez.....
people who only tvz white people are not allowed opinions on this topic
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On April 07 2009 13:36 LuisMl8 wrote:
Im protoss Player
Zerg is the Hardest race and....
For me Terran is the Easy Race cause you only need a Good BO to beat TvP and TvZ
i dont know why many ppl says that Macro T is so HArd,
but if a Protoss Player dont Micro+Macro Properly Vs Vultures + mines + Turrent + Siege
Terran just need to hold on with vulture to block Zealot Run to tanks and that all
and instant GG,
Terran Can Beat A Toss only With two Bases 5 Factory push i dont see the hardest on it
Terran have much more easy Timming than Toss
if toss do 14 nexus-->> 2 Fact push
if toss take quick 3rd,-->> 4 or 5 factory push
Terran doesnt have many openings like Protoss
TErran only have 3 or 4 openings Toss maybe like 10 and Terran dont need to remember a lot of BO, cause they always do the samething over and over and over
and because of that Toss get in troubles when they do a risky build
Terran doesn`t have an risky build, can some one tell me a Risky build in TvP???
Terran can do Fast Exp and takecare of it easy 4Rines+Tank+ Mines or Siege Tank
toss in early Stages cant do anything to Terran here, unless Terran is a noob a dont scout fine
mistakes fuck u up so bad with Toss
Zerg is The Hardest RAce
When you're out on the field in the middle of a push there are many things going through a terran's head, all of which can end up losing him the game. The difference between terran and protoss is that the position of things wins the battle for him. Toss has to get in there and attack the tanks while terran must prevent it, and here the terran has to react to your zealots by vulture and mine placement. He also has to use his mine placement to defend every single position he takes in his push to prevent a flanking attack and even these can be destroyed by goons + observer if you don't have proper positioning. Any delay in the push means the momentum is being shifted from one side to the other.
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On April 07 2009 13:36 LuisMl8 wrote:
...
Terran doesn`t have an risky build, can some one tell me a Risky build in TvP???
...
2-port
M&M push
Double Expand
ROFL push
7-minute Nuke
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On April 08 2009 01:34 lMPERVlOUS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2009 13:36 LuisMl8 wrote:
...
Terran doesn`t have an risky build, can some one tell me a Risky build in TvP???
...
2-port M&M push Double Expand ROFL push 7-minute Nuke
man you have to be kidding!! lol
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EPT
