EPTSo I think we can say that TvZ is the most complete match up in the game
TvZ is the most complete match up
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
M2
Bulgaria4146 Posts
So I think we can say that TvZ is the most complete match up in the game | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
Also, did you ever see devourers in TvZ? In ZvZ they are at least used in very rare hive level plays. | ||
|
CHEONSOYUN
568 Posts
most complete/deep mu = zvz | ||
|
Jealous
10312 Posts
On February 16 2026 06:41 SiarX wrote: Well ghosts at least very rarely see use in TvP vs carriers, but in TvZ they are totally useless, so... not exactly complete. Also, did you ever see devourers in TvZ? In ZvZ they are at least used in very rare hive level plays. Devourers were used in ZvT when island maps were in the map pool, they saw use against Battlecruisers in particular. | ||
|
Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines480 Posts
On February 16 2026 06:41 SiarX wrote: Well ghosts at least very rarely see use in TvP vs carriers, but in TvZ they are totally useless, so... not exactly complete. Guess you didn't watch that one match between nada and larva in ASL season 7 where nada used ghosts AND nukes to attempt to break larva's sunken wall. https://www.youtube.com/live/I216esl5toI?si=ycofsqMrg6ZPaJQP&t=2788 | ||
|
Ideas
United States8167 Posts
On February 16 2026 10:13 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: Guess you didn't watch that one match between nada and larva in ASL season 7 where nada used ghosts AND nukes to attempt to break larva's sunken wall. https://www.youtube.com/live/I216esl5toI?si=ycofsqMrg6ZPaJQP&t=2788 Linking ONE game from entire ASL history (and it failed) lol . Admittedly a really cool game though. | ||
|
.father
15 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6832 Posts
On February 17 2026 02:09 Ideas wrote: Linking ONE game from entire ASL history (and it failed) lol . Admittedly a really cool game though. Casy used to play with nukes vs zerg back in the kespa days. FlaSh used nukes vs Best on Match point to take down the 12 oclock expo. I think the issue with such builds is just that there are more easy ways to execute such options with less risk than using a ghost. But when someone does it. It is for sure memorable. | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 17 2026 03:26 .father wrote: It's the most completely shit matchup in the game. Zerg has the best all ins in the game for the matchup and unbeatable lategame. Terran has about a 4 minute window to win the game before they're permanently locked out of any options. Sure, this is why terran never loses late game. This is why all bonjwas except one are terrans. This is why terran won most ASLs. Oh wait. | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 17 2026 02:09 Ideas wrote: Linking ONE game from entire ASL history (and it failed) lol . Admittedly a really cool game though. Exactly. | ||
|
.father
15 Posts
On February 17 2026 04:26 SiarX wrote: Sure, this is why terran never loses late game. This is why almost all bonjwas are terrans. This is why terran wost most ASLs. Oh wait. Terran lose a majority of tvz that go lategame. Kespa era is irrelevant, since Soma optimized 2 hatch play it has been insanely zerg favored. | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 17 2026 04:34 .father wrote: Terran lose a majority of tvz that go lategame. Kespa era is irrelevant, since Soma optimized 2 hatch play it has been insanely zerg favored. Do you realise that it is Soulkey who screws statistics? He is exceptional ZvT player, but otherwise terran still has most presence in recent ASLs. | ||
|
.father
15 Posts
On February 17 2026 04:54 SiarX wrote: Do you realise that it is Soulkey who screws statistics? He is exceptional ZvT player, but otherwise terran still has most presence in recent ASLs. I don't care I actually play the matchup and it's straight up bad lol | ||
|
PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States684 Posts
On February 17 2026 03:29 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Casy used to play with nukes vs zerg back in the kespa days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsExKMu9ABQ FlaSh used nukes vs Best on Match point to take down the 12 oclock expo. https://youtu.be/RfJpUuMGtZE?si=un_3B4ScoIcgPb0u&t=451 I think the issue with such builds is just that there are more easy ways to execute such options with less risk than using a ghost. But when someone does it. It is for sure memorable. Bruh, how you have such good memory of things, LOL | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 17 2026 05:18 .father wrote: I don't care I actually play the matchup and it's straight up bad lol You must be playing it wrong, then. Terran has two strong windows where he is superior, not just 4 minutes. Late game is Z favored but far from unwinnable, and very late game becomes balanced again. Statistics based on huge collected data proves it. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games | ||
|
.father
15 Posts
On February 17 2026 07:46 SiarX wrote: You must be playing it wrong, then. Terran has two strong windows where he is superior, not just 4 minutes. Late game is Z favored but far from unwinnable, and very late game becomes balanced again. Statistics based on huge collected data proves it. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/xGVyrmT/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz.png) Yeah this graph looks like shit. Good luck winning your all in at 12 minutes and if it fails just leave and go next. | ||
|
NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On February 17 2026 10:29 .father wrote: Yeah this graph looks like shit. Good luck winning your all in at 12 minutes and if it fails just leave and go next. You do realize that at 21 minutes the lowest point on that time table after 12 minutes terran is still winning ~45% of the time at worst right? Not even getting into specifics, but at 45% it is practically even with some minor deviation based off sample size and favorable matchups could account for far more than 5%. Of course that could go the other way as well. | ||
|
SCRVN
160 Posts
Btw, can someone explain to me why win rate of Terran is just 31% at 2.5 minutes? excepting their mom call to dinner or go to bed. I don't know a race can get destroy so easy like that. | ||
|
Kraekkling
641 Posts
On February 17 2026 10:59 SCRVN wrote: can someone explain to me why win rate of Terran is just 31% at 2.5 minutes? excepting their mom call to dinner or go to bed. I don't know a race can get destroy so easy like that. T can die/quit to 4pool or 5pool Z can't really die to anything at that point | ||
|
Kraekkling
641 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays but the conclusion remains the same - Terran does really well vs Zerg also the higher the MMR of both players, the more it is Terran favoured during any point in the game, as seen in the second graph below TvZ vs time + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/wjMsZmy/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz.png) TvZ vs time in MMR brackets + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/67t96Lr1/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 17 2026 10:59 SCRVN wrote: I think there is no any complete matchup with P and Z because of their imperfective race. What do you mean? | ||
|
SCRVN
160 Posts
| ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
| ||
|
SCRVN
160 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/6R2HgSMt/vfdv1.png) | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France8056 Posts
I wouldn’t say that nukes are useless in tvz, and i wouldn’t bet my money that they will never be part of the meta. Totally agree with the OP, TvZ is the most perfect matchup. | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 17 2026 23:59 SCRVN wrote: Thst`s not enough data to judge... especially since Soulkey changes ASL statistics signifcantly singlehandedly, otherwise zerg would have fared much worse. But here statistics is more close https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games | ||
|
LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1537 Posts
https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/12038_Kal_vs_ZerO/vod https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/13625_Hwasin_vs_ZerO | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France8056 Posts
| ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 18 2026 02:53 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: ZerO (now Queen) did Infested Terrans on Holy World SE vs Protosses, but u can argue it's because of the map (has a neutral CC in the middle). https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/12038_Kal_vs_ZerO/vod https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/13625_Hwasin_vs_ZerO That was 17 years ago though... | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28784 Posts
| ||
|
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1204 Posts
PvZ is not nearly as imbalanced as some folks on here claim. And TvZ is not nearly as perfect as some claim. Winrates fluctuate strongly for both matchupa depending on game time power spikes. | ||
|
Kraekkling
641 Posts
On February 18 2026 22:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: tvz isn't just the best matchup in brood war, it's the best matchup in any computer game. it's marvelous how asymmetrical the matchup is, playing TvZ and playing ZvT might as well be different games | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10360 Posts
On February 19 2026 03:19 Kraekkling wrote: it's marvelous how asymmetrical the matchup is, playing TvZ and playing ZvT might as well be different games As someone who picked up Zerg this last season of CPL, it was very eye opening how much Zerg has to struggle in the matchup. | ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France8056 Posts
On February 19 2026 04:44 FlaShFTW wrote: As someone who picked up Zerg this last season of CPL, it was very eye opening how much Zerg has to struggle in the matchup. Terran units feel so weak and fragile when you play them and so utterly terrifying when you face them it’s kind of comical. | ||
|
Kraekkling
641 Posts
TvZ: nonstop macro because marines are so quick to make, but as a payoff you get the deadliest, most aggressive T1 unit in the game. Your opponent gets a bunch of bullshit which makes your units useless. ZvT: closest to WC3 or something, there’s no economy, no macro, but you get a bunch of hero units you have to babysit all game i.e., the muta stack and later defilers. Your opponent can sit back and never expand and as long as they are mining, they'll be able to produce units which can kill you at all times. Then it’s like 15 minutes of Zerg trying to assemble their super weapon while Terran throws shit at them hoping something sticks. | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
On February 17 2026 03:26 .father wrote: It's the most completely shit matchup in the game. Zerg has the best all ins in the game for the matchup and unbeatable lategame. Terran has about a 4 minute window to win the game before they're permanently locked out of any options. welcome to pvz | ||
|
.father
15 Posts
Ya I mean zerg is insanely broken, I don't know much about pvz but it looks nearly as bad as tvz. | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
On February 20 2026 12:15 .father wrote: Ya I mean zerg is insanely broken, I don't know much about pvz but it looks nearly as bad as tvz. stupidly easy to operate early/mid game compared to T and P, incredible effective comeback mechanics and braindead strategically. | ||
|
iopq
United States1073 Posts
On February 16 2026 06:41 SiarX wrote: Well ghosts at least very rarely see use in TvP vs carriers, but in TvZ they are totally useless, so... not exactly complete. Also, did you ever see devourers in TvZ? In ZvZ they are at least used in very rare hive level plays. First of all, nuke rushes are viable against crazy Zerg and we've seen them in tournaments. You build one devourer when you guardian rush to prevent cloaked wraiths from just killing your cliff overlord and hunting your guardians. The devourer shows them and slows their attack They were also used many times on Roaring Currents! The map did not appear in ASL enough, but in pro league people tried everything | ||
|
bulbousbrain
13 Posts
On February 17 2026 13:09 Kraekkling wrote: btw in the more recent thread the data sample is ten times as large and some of the graphs have more annotations https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays but the conclusion remains the same - Terran does really well vs Zerg also the higher the MMR of both players, the more it is Terran favoured during any point in the game, as seen in the second graph below TvZ vs time + Show Spoiler + TvZ vs time in MMR brackets + Show Spoiler + At top top level the MU has been solved by Soulkey and Soma. It's been pretty brutal the past few years. Zerg camps, goes Mutas 99% of the time, completely dominates the tempo, Terran has a couple opportunities for timing attacks, if Zerg gets Defiler it's gg. There are enough exceptions to still make it interesting but that's the gist of it. It's boring how much Mutas dominate the MU. All of Terran's openings are about trying to stay alive against Mutas long enough to set up a timing attack. I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10360 Posts
On February 24 2026 20:05 iopq wrote: First of all, nuke rushes are viable against crazy Zerg and we've seen them in tournaments. You build one devourer when you guardian rush to prevent cloaked wraiths from just killing your cliff overlord and hunting your guardians. The devourer shows them and slows their attack They were also used many times on Roaring Currents! The map did not appear in ASL enough, but in pro league people tried everything We saw nuke rush in one game in ASL, which, while exciting, still lost. | ||
|
Kraekkling
641 Posts
I don't care about the MU between players who are outside, say, top 25-30 in the world cuz BW is damn near a different game at that point. And even that is difficult to test because top 5 vs top 25 is still a huge huge huge advantage for top 5. eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/q32ZhhH4/3535111t.png) | ||
|
Kraekkling
641 Posts
At top top level the MU has been solved by Soulkey and Soma. It's been pretty brutal the past few years. Zerg camps, goes Mutas 99% of the time, completely dominates the tempo, Terran has a couple opportunities for timing attacks, if Zerg gets Defiler it's gg. now that Flash returned and we got a new set of maps, Terrans are shitting on Zerg all over the place lol TvZ win rates of 60% on multiple maps this shouldn't be possible if what you said were true | ||
|
doktordingerdonger
73 Posts
On February 27 2026 05:15 Kraekkling wrote: eloboard ZvT stats for the last 2 years. this is as close as we can get to the top 30 TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much? | ||
|
Jealous
10312 Posts
On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote: TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much? The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top. I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary. | ||
|
doktordingerdonger
73 Posts
On February 27 2026 14:00 Jealous wrote: The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top. I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary. Sounds like every narcissist.... I think the issue is that we all know since the beginning of time that terran is the winningest race, and this attracts all the narcissist to play terran... and they all like to protect themselves in their own world where everyone else is wrong and they are the weak victims It explains idra, artosis, gypsy etc., and why day9 is so chill in comparison. Tasteless slowly gets infected by Artosises toxicity in his cast but is usually much more chill. | ||
|
TMNT
3135 Posts
On February 27 2026 14:00 Jealous wrote: The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top. I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary. Reading your post I'm unclear about whether you mean to support or not support that argument (in bold). But just want to throw this out there that the stats of a few players can't possibly inflate the stats of the whole population. Evidence: Terran enjoyed the same win rates in all the 3-4 years of Flash's absence. Check the win rates on Vermeer for example. Flash never played a game on this map. | ||
|
SiarX
133 Posts
On February 27 2026 14:00 Jealous wrote: The stats of the mediocre have been carried by the stats of the stellar is the argument. They have it both ways: all the best players (bonjwa, God) happened to play Terran (save for one), and their race is the hardest to play, and that is why stats are inflated and Terran is actually weakest below the tippity top. I've read these arguments so many times regardless of era of the game. So, I'm just saving everyone the trouble. I am fairly sure the above is the overarching summary. Only below 1800 MMR terran has a bit lower winrate in TvZ. Above that terran increasingly starts dominating zerg. So it is not just the very top tier pros who have race advantage. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10360 Posts
On February 27 2026 13:08 doktordingerdonger wrote: TvZ is also the only MU where it never crosses the 50% line. It is consistently in favor of terran. Terrans are also the only ones who complain about balance in a matchup even though the WR is in their favor and not even close. The more interesting thing is why terrans like to whine so much? You and iopg keep making this weird "terrans complain, stop being big whiners about TvZ." Yet, I rarely find people actually complain about this matchup from the Terran perspective, or at least few enough that I'm not going to say it's representative of the population, or even a significant portion of the population. I think the overwhelming majority of Terrans know the strengths of the matchup and how it is advantaged for them. So can we please stop with this tired argument of "TvZ terran crybabies"? Because it's simply not based on reality. Now, Terrans crying about TvP on the other hand, definitely something we do. | ||
|
doktordingerdonger
73 Posts
On February 17 2026 13:09 Kraekkling wrote: btw in the more recent thread the data sample is ten times as large and some of the graphs have more annotations https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays but the conclusion remains the same - Terran does really well vs Zerg also the higher the MMR of both players, the more it is Terran favoured during any point in the game, as seen in the second graph below TvZ vs time + Show Spoiler + TvZ vs time in MMR brackets + Show Spoiler + critizises "muh feelings" by saying that based on "muh feelings", you are saying BS. The fact remains that T>Z>P but somehow terrans whine about zerg. Imagine rock not being able to beat scissor anymore, but scissors crying that the scissor paper matchup is where paper is OP and paper mains WHINING ABOUT THIS. Of course THIS STANDS OUT. | ||
|
M2
Bulgaria4146 Posts
| ||
|
Jealous
10312 Posts
On February 28 2026 06:49 FlaShFTW wrote: You and iopg keep making this weird "terrans complain, stop being big whiners about TvZ." Yet, I rarely find people actually complain about this matchup from the Terran perspective, or at least few enough that I'm not going to say it's representative of the population, or even a significant portion of the population. I think the overwhelming majority of Terrans know the strengths of the matchup and how it is advantaged for them. So can we please stop with this tired argument of "TvZ terran crybabies"? Because it's simply not based on reality. Now, Terrans crying about TvP on the other hand, definitely something we do. I think the reason why the opinion is shared here is because while you are probably right in that minority opinions are not representative of the whole population, we had an example in this very thread so the perspective is justified here at least. Point in case: On February 20 2026 12:15 .father wrote: Ya I mean zerg is insanely broken, I don't know much about pvz but it looks nearly as bad as tvz. | ||
| ||
