EPTSo I think we can say that TvZ is the most complete match up in the game
TvZ is the most complete match up
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M2
Bulgaria4135 Posts
So I think we can say that TvZ is the most complete match up in the game | ||
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SiarX
129 Posts
Also, did you ever see devourers in TvZ? In ZvZ they are at least used in very rare hive level plays. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
most complete/deep mu = zvz | ||
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Jealous
10281 Posts
On February 16 2026 06:41 SiarX wrote: Well ghosts at least very rarely see use in TvP vs carriers, but in TvZ they are totally useless, so... not exactly complete. Also, did you ever see devourers in TvZ? In ZvZ they are at least used in very rare hive level plays. Devourers were used in ZvT when island maps were in the map pool, they saw use against Battlecruisers in particular. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines405 Posts
On February 16 2026 06:41 SiarX wrote: Well ghosts at least very rarely see use in TvP vs carriers, but in TvZ they are totally useless, so... not exactly complete. Guess you didn't watch that one match between nada and larva in ASL season 7 where nada used ghosts AND nukes to attempt to break larva's sunken wall. https://www.youtube.com/live/I216esl5toI?si=ycofsqMrg6ZPaJQP&t=2788 | ||
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Ideas
United States8161 Posts
On February 16 2026 10:13 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: Guess you didn't watch that one match between nada and larva in ASL season 7 where nada used ghosts AND nukes to attempt to break larva's sunken wall. https://www.youtube.com/live/I216esl5toI?si=ycofsqMrg6ZPaJQP&t=2788 Linking ONE game from entire ASL history (and it failed) lol . Admittedly a really cool game though. | ||
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.father
9 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6810 Posts
On February 17 2026 02:09 Ideas wrote: Linking ONE game from entire ASL history (and it failed) lol . Admittedly a really cool game though. Casy used to play with nukes vs zerg back in the kespa days. FlaSh used nukes vs Best on Match point to take down the 12 oclock expo. I think the issue with such builds is just that there are more easy ways to execute such options with less risk than using a ghost. But when someone does it. It is for sure memorable. | ||
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SiarX
129 Posts
On February 17 2026 03:26 .father wrote: It's the most completely shit matchup in the game. Zerg has the best all ins in the game for the matchup and unbeatable lategame. Terran has about a 4 minute window to win the game before they're permanently locked out of any options. Sure, this is why terran never loses late game. This is why all bonjwas except one are terrans. This is why terran won most ASLs. Oh wait. | ||
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SiarX
129 Posts
On February 17 2026 02:09 Ideas wrote: Linking ONE game from entire ASL history (and it failed) lol . Admittedly a really cool game though. Exactly. | ||
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.father
9 Posts
On February 17 2026 04:26 SiarX wrote: Sure, this is why terran never loses late game. This is why almost all bonjwas are terrans. This is why terran wost most ASLs. Oh wait. Terran lose a majority of tvz that go lategame. Kespa era is irrelevant, since Soma optimized 2 hatch play it has been insanely zerg favored. | ||
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SiarX
129 Posts
On February 17 2026 04:34 .father wrote: Terran lose a majority of tvz that go lategame. Kespa era is irrelevant, since Soma optimized 2 hatch play it has been insanely zerg favored. Do you realise that it is Soulkey who screws statistics? He is exceptional ZvT player, but otherwise terran still has most presence in recent ASLs. | ||
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.father
9 Posts
On February 17 2026 04:54 SiarX wrote: Do you realise that it is Soulkey who screws statistics? He is exceptional ZvT player, but otherwise terran still has most presence in recent ASLs. I don't care I actually play the matchup and it's straight up bad lol | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States681 Posts
On February 17 2026 03:29 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Casy used to play with nukes vs zerg back in the kespa days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsExKMu9ABQ FlaSh used nukes vs Best on Match point to take down the 12 oclock expo. https://youtu.be/RfJpUuMGtZE?si=un_3B4ScoIcgPb0u&t=451 I think the issue with such builds is just that there are more easy ways to execute such options with less risk than using a ghost. But when someone does it. It is for sure memorable. Bruh, how you have such good memory of things, LOL | ||
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SiarX
129 Posts
On February 17 2026 05:18 .father wrote: I don't care I actually play the matchup and it's straight up bad lol You must be playing it wrong, then. Terran has two strong windows where he is superior, not just 4 minutes. Late game is Z favored but far from unwinnable, and very late game becomes balanced again. Statistics based on huge collected data proves it. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games | ||
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.father
9 Posts
On February 17 2026 07:46 SiarX wrote: You must be playing it wrong, then. Terran has two strong windows where he is superior, not just 4 minutes. Late game is Z favored but far from unwinnable, and very late game becomes balanced again. Statistics based on huge collected data proves it. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/xGVyrmT/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz.png) Yeah this graph looks like shit. Good luck winning your all in at 12 minutes and if it fails just leave and go next. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On February 17 2026 10:29 .father wrote: Yeah this graph looks like shit. Good luck winning your all in at 12 minutes and if it fails just leave and go next. You do realize that at 21 minutes the lowest point on that time table after 12 minutes terran is still winning ~45% of the time at worst right? Not even getting into specifics, but at 45% it is practically even with some minor deviation based off sample size and favorable matchups could account for far more than 5%. Of course that could go the other way as well. | ||
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SCRVN
130 Posts
Btw, can someone explain to me why win rate of Terran is just 31% at 2.5 minutes? excepting their mom call to dinner or go to bed. I don't know a race can get destroy so easy like that. | ||
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Kraekkling
617 Posts
On February 17 2026 10:59 SCRVN wrote: can someone explain to me why win rate of Terran is just 31% at 2.5 minutes? excepting their mom call to dinner or go to bed. I don't know a race can get destroy so easy like that. T can die/quit to 4pool or 5pool Z can't really die to anything at that point | ||
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Kraekkling
617 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays but the conclusion remains the same - Terran does really well vs Zerg also the higher the MMR of both players, the more it is Terran favoured during any point in the game, as seen in the second graph below TvZ vs time + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/wjMsZmy/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz.png) TvZ vs time in MMR brackets + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/67t96Lr1/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) | ||
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SiarX
129 Posts
On February 17 2026 10:59 SCRVN wrote: I think there is no any complete matchup with P and Z because of their imperfective race. What do you mean? | ||
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SCRVN
130 Posts
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SiarX
129 Posts
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SCRVN
130 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/6R2HgSMt/vfdv1.png) | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7981 Posts
I wouldn’t say that nukes are useless in tvz, and i wouldn’t bet my money that they will never be part of the meta. Totally agree with the OP, TvZ is the most perfect matchup. | ||
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SiarX
129 Posts
On February 17 2026 23:59 SCRVN wrote: Thst`s not enough data to judge... especially since Soulkey changes ASL statistics signifcantly singlehandedly, otherwise zerg would have fared much worse. But here statistics is more close https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642592-data-analysis-on-70-million-replays https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1517 Posts
https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/12038_Kal_vs_ZerO/vod https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/13625_Hwasin_vs_ZerO | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7981 Posts
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SiarX
129 Posts
On February 18 2026 02:53 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: ZerO (now Queen) did Infested Terrans on Holy World SE vs Protosses, but u can argue it's because of the map (has a neutral CC in the middle). https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/12038_Kal_vs_ZerO/vod https://tl.net/tlpd/korean/games/13625_Hwasin_vs_ZerO That was 17 years ago though... | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28742 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1115 Posts
PvZ is not nearly as imbalanced as some folks on here claim. And TvZ is not nearly as perfect as some claim. Winrates fluctuate strongly for both matchupa depending on game time power spikes. | ||
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Kraekkling
617 Posts
On February 18 2026 22:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: tvz isn't just the best matchup in brood war, it's the best matchup in any computer game. it's marvelous how asymmetrical the matchup is, playing TvZ and playing ZvT might as well be different games | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10310 Posts
On February 19 2026 03:19 Kraekkling wrote: it's marvelous how asymmetrical the matchup is, playing TvZ and playing ZvT might as well be different games As someone who picked up Zerg this last season of CPL, it was very eye opening how much Zerg has to struggle in the matchup. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7981 Posts
On February 19 2026 04:44 FlaShFTW wrote: As someone who picked up Zerg this last season of CPL, it was very eye opening how much Zerg has to struggle in the matchup. Terran units feel so weak and fragile when you play them and so utterly terrifying when you face them it’s kind of comical. | ||
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Kraekkling
617 Posts
TvZ: nonstop macro because marines are so quick to make, but as a payoff you get the deadliest, most aggressive T1 unit in the game. Your opponent gets a bunch of bullshit which makes your units useless. ZvT: closest to WC3 or something, there’s no economy, no macro, but you get a bunch of hero units you have to babysit all game i.e., the muta stack and later defilers. Your opponent can sit back and never expand and as long as they are mining, they'll be able to produce units which can kill you at all times. Then it’s like 15 minutes of Zerg trying to assemble their super weapon while Terran throws shit at them hoping something sticks. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2314 Posts
On February 17 2026 03:26 .father wrote: It's the most completely shit matchup in the game. Zerg has the best all ins in the game for the matchup and unbeatable lategame. Terran has about a 4 minute window to win the game before they're permanently locked out of any options. welcome to pvz | ||
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