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Renamed To ASL20 General Discussion.
WARNING: Contains Spoilers |
On September 26 2025 00:00 Simplistik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2025 02:33 Stopthevirtualaddict wrote:
Puh, that snow vs effort series.
First game was so good…
And the rest was basically, one player came prepared, the other had his homework leaked online. Mindgamed, strategy found out, while not even starting it. Totally outclassed. Yeah, the contrast between the first set and the other four was quite stark. First I was worried for Snow, then I was laughing in disbelief.
Effort had a gameplan for every map. The problem is Snow is just too good. He won on the weirdest map, and the other maps weren't weird enough to overcome the disparity in raw skill.
Don't get me wrong, I think Effort is the greatest ZvT player of all time. But ZvP was never his most notable matchup.
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On September 26 2025 03:05 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2025 00:00 Simplistik wrote:On September 25 2025 02:33 Stopthevirtualaddict wrote:
Puh, that snow vs effort series.
First game was so good…
And the rest was basically, one player came prepared, the other had his homework leaked online. Mindgamed, strategy found out, while not even starting it. Totally outclassed. Yeah, the contrast between the first set and the other four was quite stark. First I was worried for Snow, then I was laughing in disbelief. Effort had a gameplan for every map. The problem is Snow is just too good. He won on the weirdest map, and the other maps weren't weird enough to overcome the disparity in raw skill. Don't get me wrong, I think Effort is the greatest ZvT player of all time. But ZvP was never his most notable matchup.
He likely had a gameplan, however it was thwarted in the early game and never mattered. His responses Snow's openings were simply not what he would have done in the past. Meanwhile his ZvP is only not talked about because who was the mega PvZ threat during his peak really? But he has had plenty of games where he setup to play PvZ just like he played PvT back then and he won those matches, long brutal macro games that eventually forced his opponents hand or had such an economic advantage that there was no way for them to overcome what he had. But I don't think his PvT "skill" was what lead him to beat flash, it was not being short sighted no forced muta or lurker plays, but instead more drones more hatcheries, more defense, more economy until he could use his APM to spread you out so thin you couldn't maintain your 3rd or 4th or 5th base.
Snow though clearly improved, and I appreciate the use of underutilized reavers.
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On September 26 2025 00:00 Simplistik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2025 02:33 Stopthevirtualaddict wrote:
Puh, that snow vs effort series.
First game was so good…
And the rest was basically, one player came prepared, the other had his homework leaked online. Mindgamed, strategy found out, while not even starting it. Totally outclassed. Yeah, the contrast between the first set and the other four was quite stark. First I was worried for Snow, then I was laughing in disbelief.
Yeah after game 1
I really thought Effort had a chance then Snow reminded us he is Snow LOL
There aint no Soulkey stopping that dude now. Although apparently he has terrible head to head against Soma so we will see. Otherwise i'm feeling nobody can stop him this tournament
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On September 26 2025 03:05 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2025 00:00 Simplistik wrote:On September 25 2025 02:33 Stopthevirtualaddict wrote:
Puh, that snow vs effort series.
First game was so good…
And the rest was basically, one player came prepared, the other had his homework leaked online. Mindgamed, strategy found out, while not even starting it. Totally outclassed. Yeah, the contrast between the first set and the other four was quite stark. First I was worried for Snow, then I was laughing in disbelief. Effort had a gameplan for every map. The problem is Snow is just too good. He won on the weirdest map, and the other maps weren't weird enough to overcome the disparity in raw skill. Don't get me wrong, I think Effort is the greatest ZvT player of all time. But ZvP was never his most notable matchup.
These days it's more about luck than skill. '' the disparity in raw skill '' u cant say this from these games. game 2,3 was nexus first which was big advantage for Snow( this is why u saw 4 lings try to run because zerg have do something) if u are not x2-x3 better then, gg as zerg. On Litmus the probe drill and saw hydra was a huge and little bit lucky moment from Snow because the lings in this time here on his main so could have easily caught his probes (2) and if catch probably gg for Snow. The last game well i dont wanna say what EffOrt feels on the moment and why he played that what he played but it was the first mistake from him( its true 1:3 probably doesnt matter ) i mean if u are not better than your opponent 2x-3x then just not play macro game in zvp because then this will be C vs S u have to do something early or mid game. And his zvp was same god level as his zvt i think but ya nowadays Snow probably way better but not from these games.
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BO advantages are certainly underrated.
But beyond that...Effort played great in game one, but last game was underwhelming.
I know he can multitask much better. It's not rare to see him play turtle style and then just destroy P's, attacking four places at one with runby cracklings and drops, to the point that the P just isn't fast enough to storm all screens simultaneously. When he plays like that, he can beat anyone with hive, at least on maps that aren't 2 player where there just isn't as much action to be had.
Instead, he kinda kept attacking at one place at the same time, maybe two, while not really spending his money. The counterattacks were also often late, starting to move across the map when Snow was already hitting his own bases.
Effort did not regain top form yet, and probably wasn't in a great condition on the day.
Snow didn't look that impressive, either. Soma will eat him alive.
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On September 26 2025 20:54 Soulforged wrote:
BO advantages are certainly underrated.
But beyond that...Effort played great in game one, but last game was underwhelming.
I know he can multitask much better. It's not rare to see him play turtle style and then just destroy P's, attacking four places at one with runby cracklings and drops, to the point that the P just isn't fast enough to storm all screens simultaneously. When he plays like that, he can beat anyone with hive, at least on maps that aren't 2 player where there just isn't as much action to be had.
Instead, he kinda kept attacking at one place at the same time, maybe two, while not really spending his money. The counterattacks were also often late, starting to move across the map when Snow was already hitting his own bases.
Effort did not regain top form yet, and probably wasn't in a great condition on the day.
Snow didn't look that impressive, either. Soma will eat him alive.
i fear you are living in 2010 zvp era. Games are not really like that anymore.
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I have got to be real with you guys.
It's killing me that the next game are next week. I need them now. I need my Ro4 Barracks v SnOw match. I need Soma Bisu.
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On September 26 2025 20:54 Soulforged wrote:
BO advantages are certainly underrated.
But beyond that...Effort played great in game one, but last game was underwhelming.
I know he can multitask much better. It's not rare to see him play turtle style and then just destroy P's, attacking four places at one with runby cracklings and drops, to the point that the P just isn't fast enough to storm all screens simultaneously. When he plays like that, he can beat anyone with hive, at least on maps that aren't 2 player where there just isn't as much action to be had.
Instead, he kinda kept attacking at one place at the same time, maybe two, while not really spending his money. The counterattacks were also often late, starting to move across the map when Snow was already hitting his own bases.
Effort did not regain top form yet, and probably wasn't in a great condition on the day.
Snow didn't look that impressive, either. Soma will eat him alive.
Snow lookes very impressive to me. His cost efficiency was absurd in most of the games. He was getting more results in terms of minerals/gas spent vs minerals/gas killed than anyone else.
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On September 26 2025 18:52 sas.Sziky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2025 03:05 ThunderJunk wrote:On September 26 2025 00:00 Simplistik wrote:On September 25 2025 02:33 Stopthevirtualaddict wrote:
Puh, that snow vs effort series.
First game was so good…
And the rest was basically, one player came prepared, the other had his homework leaked online. Mindgamed, strategy found out, while not even starting it. Totally outclassed. Yeah, the contrast between the first set and the other four was quite stark. First I was worried for Snow, then I was laughing in disbelief. Effort had a gameplan for every map. The problem is Snow is just too good. He won on the weirdest map, and the other maps weren't weird enough to overcome the disparity in raw skill. Don't get me wrong, I think Effort is the greatest ZvT player of all time. But ZvP was never his most notable matchup. These days it's more about luck than skill. '' the disparity in raw skill '' u cant say this from these games. game 2,3 was nexus first which was big advantage for Snow( this is why u saw 4 lings try to run because zerg have do something) if u are not x2-x3 better then, gg as zerg. On Litmus the probe drill and saw hydra was a huge and little bit lucky moment from Snow because the lings in this time here on his main so could have easily caught his probes (2) and if catch probably gg for Snow. The last game well i dont wanna say what EffOrt feels on the moment and why he played that what he played but it was the first mistake from him( its true 1:3 probably doesnt matter ) i mean if u are not better than your opponent 2x-3x then just not play macro game in zvp because then this will be C vs S u have to do something early or mid game. And his zvp was same god level as his zvt i think but ya nowadays Snow probably way better but not from these games.
I think you have a decently fair point here. I do also think though that Effort deciding never to go hatch-first in the series is a bit telling about how he felt his chances were against Snow in "Honorable macro games".
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Maybe.
My mind isn't really going to 2010 when I say that though, but to an occasional stream/proleague/ladder game with flashes of mechanical brilliance from players like Effort or JD. Those games make me think again that the matchup is more about multitasking than mind games.
But they don't really maintain those peaks anymore.
Meanwhile, Soma seems to maintain it.
I guess we'll see.
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On September 27 2025 04:17 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2025 18:52 sas.Sziky wrote:On September 26 2025 03:05 ThunderJunk wrote:On September 26 2025 00:00 Simplistik wrote:On September 25 2025 02:33 Stopthevirtualaddict wrote:
Puh, that snow vs effort series.
First game was so good…
And the rest was basically, one player came prepared, the other had his homework leaked online. Mindgamed, strategy found out, while not even starting it. Totally outclassed. Yeah, the contrast between the first set and the other four was quite stark. First I was worried for Snow, then I was laughing in disbelief. Effort had a gameplan for every map. The problem is Snow is just too good. He won on the weirdest map, and the other maps weren't weird enough to overcome the disparity in raw skill. Don't get me wrong, I think Effort is the greatest ZvT player of all time. But ZvP was never his most notable matchup. These days it's more about luck than skill. '' the disparity in raw skill '' u cant say this from these games. game 2,3 was nexus first which was big advantage for Snow( this is why u saw 4 lings try to run because zerg have do something) if u are not x2-x3 better then, gg as zerg. On Litmus the probe drill and saw hydra was a huge and little bit lucky moment from Snow because the lings in this time here on his main so could have easily caught his probes (2) and if catch probably gg for Snow. The last game well i dont wanna say what EffOrt feels on the moment and why he played that what he played but it was the first mistake from him( its true 1:3 probably doesnt matter ) i mean if u are not better than your opponent 2x-3x then just not play macro game in zvp because then this will be C vs S u have to do something early or mid game. And his zvp was same god level as his zvt i think but ya nowadays Snow probably way better but not from these games. I think you have a decently fair point here. I do also think though that Effort deciding never to go hatch-first in the series is a bit telling about how he felt his chances were against Snow in "Honorable macro games".
Effort went hatchery first on Dominator.The thing about going hatchery first these days is that canon Rush is a real issue cuz of the spots that prevent drones to effectively fight it back. So sometimes even if you defend it you can be in a real bad spot. I dont personally blame him for no trying it more. Could have been interesting to see more 9pool from him tho. That proly would have worked against Snow mindgames better. But this is also easier to say when the series are done and we know the result. Cuz him having go 9pool multiple times and then snow going forge first instead of Nexus is also the other side of the coin that put zerg also in economic distress. Thats the thing with this risky build orders. This series this worked fantastic for Snow. But could have been terrible if he was facing 9pool.
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On September 27 2025 07:57 Soulforged wrote:
Maybe.
My mind isn't really going to 2010 when I say that though, but to an occasional stream/proleague/ladder game with flashes of mechanical brilliance from players like Effort or JD. Those games make me think again that the matchup is more about multitasking than mind games.
But they don't really maintain those peaks anymore.
Meanwhile, Soma seems to maintain it.
I guess we'll see.
Yeah but the reality of zvp these days is not that at all. Yeah sure sometimes it happens. i remember a game of Jaedong vs Snow that Snow for some reason didnt push JD for 12 minutes and allowed him to get to 60 drones in 8 minutes and from there it was horde after horde of units until he tap out. But the mechanical level is not that far from each other these days where you find a Protoss overwhelmed by zerg units. It has to be that either he is super behind or there is an insane level disparity like lets say Effort vs Tyson or Effort vs YSC. But from the top guys specially on these new maps era that everything is so easy to wall. Every expansion is so easy to defend. And almost no defensive positions for zerg player to setup a 4 base. Is pretty rare to see a protoss just freaking out cuz there are many units.
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Is there a kcm megathread ? That recent KCM by speed and snow is kinda impressive
Speed has real potential I just dont see him do such thing in ASL somehow
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On September 26 2025 03:05 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2025 00:00 Simplistik wrote:On September 25 2025 02:33 Stopthevirtualaddict wrote:
Puh, that snow vs effort series.
First game was so good…
And the rest was basically, one player came prepared, the other had his homework leaked online. Mindgamed, strategy found out, while not even starting it. Totally outclassed. Yeah, the contrast between the first set and the other four was quite stark. First I was worried for Snow, then I was laughing in disbelief. Effort had a gameplan for every map. The problem is Snow is just too good. He won on the weirdest map, and the other maps weren't weird enough to overcome the disparity in raw skill. Don't get me wrong, I think Effort is the greatest ZvT player of all time. But ZvP was never his most notable matchup.
his zvp winrate always was better tham his zvt though. Anyway, I hate seeing effort falling low against lower class player because he didnt put the effort into it, no pun intended. I wonder if he will ever go all out again in the future, but i doubt. Looks like soma is the future now, he never had his moment of glory.
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Mini is better than Barracks
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On September 28 2025 10:01 Azhi_Dahaki wrote:
Mini is better than Barracks
If he were, he wouldn't have taken such a huge risk in game 7. Going Nexus first in the final game of a series says he doesn't think he would win a straight up game.
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On September 28 2025 10:15 RogueTheGOAT wrote:If he were, he wouldn't have taken such a huge risk in game 7. Going Nexus first in the final game of a series says he doesn't think he would win a straight up game.
Nexus first is a very common Mini thing on 4 player maps. Barracks and Mini are about equally good. Just statistic variations alone means one of the two will win a best of set, and that winrates will fluctuate up and down. Most players are about equally good and only a few are real true outliers who consistently win. Even with 55%/45% win rates someone can win or lose 5-10 in a row against a worse or better player given the sample size is big enough.
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On September 28 2025 19:56 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 10:15 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 28 2025 10:01 Azhi_Dahaki wrote:
Mini is better than Barracks If he were, he wouldn't have taken such a huge risk in game 7. Going Nexus first in the final game of a series says he doesn't think he would win a straight up game. Nexus first is a very common Mini thing on 4 player maps. Barracks and Mini are about equally good. Just statistic variations alone means one of the two will win a best of set, and that winrates will fluctuate up and down. Most players are about equally good and only a few are real true outliers who consistently win. Even with 55%/45% win rates someone can win or lose 5-10 in a row against a worse or better player given the sample size is big enough.
Everyone and their mother knew that Mini was going Nexus first. The better player does not employ a strategy that has a 33% of working and that 33% being spawn position luck. A player takes that gamble if and only if they don't think they can win without a massive advantage.
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On September 27 2025 07:57 Soulforged wrote:
Maybe.
My mind isn't really going to 2010 when I say that though, but to an occasional stream/proleague/ladder game with flashes of mechanical brilliance from players like Effort or JD. Those games make me think again that the matchup is more about multitasking than mind games.
But they don't really maintain those peaks anymore.
Meanwhile, Soma seems to maintain it.
I guess we'll see.
The game has changed. They didn't have mineral boosting back, then. It is a wonderful kaleidoscope of timeline like, the game comes with its timestamp meta data. I do like old games, but sometimes you need to look into the future.
These new maps could bring back a Boxer of sorts into the terran roster. Speed learns pretty quick. I give him a shot.
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On September 20 2025 09:37 RogueTheGOAT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2025 03:12 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
*Posted it again award*
By the way - Do we know the map order for each of the ro8 pairs already?
Cheers. If you didn't see, someone added it to the ASL 20 page on Liquipedia. Every Protoss player chose Roaring Currents as either their first or second choice, so it is guaranteed to be played in every series.
Really, though, is that a thing? I haven't seen many protoss players utilising the map like they are supposed to.
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EPT
