EPTASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking! - Page 2
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pseudosignal
42 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1767 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nfNZM1K.png) | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands983 Posts
On August 11 2025 23:53 KameZerg wrote: That is a very generous Calm placement. Hyun too. On August 11 2025 23:30 pseudosignal wrote: Bisu has underperformed for like 12 straight ASLs and people still rate him so highly :/ I am rating Bisu a bit high because he started playing wireless and increased the size of his BW window. I think it will improve his play a little bit, which might just be enough. The day Bisu starts widescreen he will ascend yet again. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1850 Posts
On August 11 2025 23:30 pseudosignal wrote: Bisu has underperformed for like 12 straight ASLs and people still rate him so highly :/ He's clearly playing a tier lower than SnOw and Best, but I think it's fair to predict he'll at least come second in a group with JyJ, TY, and Speed. All three of those Terrans are extremely good on their best days but very inconsistent. Plus there's an advantage being in a PTTT group, since Bisu only has to grind PvT whereas the other three have to split their practice between TvT and TvP. | ||
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pseudosignal
42 Posts
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zutt0
10 Posts
On August 11 2025 23:30 pseudosignal wrote: Bisu has underperformed for like 12 straight ASLs and people still rate him so highly :/ I agree and accounted for this in my own ranking. Statistically, Bisu looks like he's the second best Protoss and is performing at a slightly higher level than Rush and Mini. He's 60% against top Ts, about even with Best. He actually has a winning 18-10 record against Soulkey and is going even with hero and Queen. He's 6-2 against Snow in the mirror, although he's 3-9 against Mini. But he also looked that way for the last couple of seasons, and in both of those seasons he underperformed. That's why I put him in B tier. I also put Light, Royal, and Jaedong in this category of ASL chokers. They seem to routinely do worse than the numbers lead me to think they should. They're the polar opposite of Rush, who seems to always overperform. However, ASL results are drawn from a very small sample, so there's a tone of variance here. Sometimes these patterns of choking are true right up until they're not. Three seasons ago, I would've put Snow down as a choker, and then he went and got Round of 4 three seasons in a row. I'll let things like this push me up a tier or down a tier, but I think it's important to not overindex on them. On average, people play to their average. | ||
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zelevin
United States286 Posts
A: Soma, effort, queen, hero, Light, Mini, Best, B: True, Jaedong, Barracks, Rush, Sharp C: Calm, Larva, Bisu, Paralyze, Mong, Speed, royal, BaBy D: Hyun, Saber, JYJ, sSak, Stork, Ample #1 pick is Snow | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2278 Posts
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goody153
44206 Posts
Still disappointed that Speed wasnt a stronger breakout player than expected. Especially after that spicy season with him challenging snow (which lead to one of the best series in that season) he kinda toned down after and didnt go ballsy anymore on the group stages. Hoping he does better this season tho Hoping TY at least makes it to R16. Ideally R8 | ||
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pseudosignal
42 Posts
S Soulkey, Snow A Best, Light, Rush, Mini, Effort B Queen, Hero, Speed, Sharp, Jaedong, Soma C Bisu, Barracks, Ample, Royal, Larva, Stork D sSak, JYJ, TY E Mong, Calm, Hyun, BTS F Saber, Paralyze | ||
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prosatan
Romania8338 Posts
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TMNT
2912 Posts
On August 11 2025 23:23 Ideas wrote: What is the consensus on map pool(if any)? Seems about as balanced as last season? I remember in a jinjin vid that flash mentioned soulkey complaining about balance this season, but from what I can tell it's even worse for protoss? From what I can tell: Dominator: mostly balanced Radeon: mostly balanced Metropolis: feels slightly imba to me (T > Z, Z > P, P > T) Pole Star: about the same as metropolis Litmus: seems ok for Z, bad for P ? (I swear any map with backdoor to main is always imba) Screaming Sea: seems great for Z all around? edit - and based on the prelims, seems pretty bad for protoss? Make of this what you will Map - PvZ win rate (approx no. of games) - PvT win rate (approx no. of games) Radeon - 48.1% (1500) - 47.3% (1700) Dominator - 45.9% (700) - 49.5% (800) Pole Star - 46.8% (400) - 45.6% (400) Metropolis - 47.2% (400) - 44.5% (350) Litmus - 38.2% (34) - 40% (25) KnockOut - 51.4% (35) - 45.5% (33) Uldolmok - 50% (18) - 25% (20) But for me, the early call that the new map pool is anti-Soulkey is just false narrative. As usual, Protoss is fucked over. And I have to repeat, modern standard 4p maps inherently disfavor Protoss in both matchups, but it has been accepted as the norm. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands983 Posts
On August 12 2025 22:26 TMNT wrote: Make of this what you will Map - PvZ win rate (approx no. of games) - PvT win rate (approx no. of games) Radeon - 48.1% (1500) - 47.3% (1700) Dominator - 45.9% (700) - 49.5% (800) Pole Star - 46.8% (400) - 45.6% (400) Metropolis - 47.2% (400) - 44.5% (350) Litmus - 38.2% (34) - 40% (25) KnockOut - 51.4% (35) - 45.5% (33) Uldolmok - 50% (18) - 25% (20) But for me, the early call that the new map pool is anti-Soulkey is just false narrative. As usual, Protoss is fucked over. And I have to repeat, modern standard 4p maps inherently disfavor Protoss in both matchups, but it has been accepted as the norm. Litmus specifically is an absolute nightmare. Uldolmok is crap vs terran, average vs zerg it seems.... toss always suffers the most from these gimmick maps. | ||
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iopq
United States965 Posts
On August 11 2025 12:11 zutt0 wrote: I ran the stats on how people have been performing over the last 9 months based on Eloboard. Here is my list and I'll talk through some of the big discrepancies and also some of the big changes from my evaluations in previous seasons. S: Soulkey, Snow A: Light, Queen, Rush, Mini, Best, Sharp B: Hero, Soma, what kind of drugs do you have to be on to rank Sharp over Soma, lol | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
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zutt0
10 Posts
On August 13 2025 01:03 iopq wrote: what kind of drugs do you have to be on to rank Sharp over Soma, lol I'll give you the matchup spread and you tell me if it's obvious that one of these players is significantly better than the other: Soulkey: Player A: 1-2 Player B: 3-6 Hero: Player A: 1-0 Player B: 8-2 Queen: Player A: 4-2 Player B: 25-24 Light: Player A: 0-1 Player B: 1-2 Rush: Player A: 1-7 Player B: 2-3 Royal: Player A: 11-7 Player B: 5-3 Snow: Player A: 2-3 Player B: 3-15 Best Player A: 7-1 Player B: 10-12 Mini: Player A: 5-10 Player B: 12-22 I'd say that Player A is clearly better against Protoss, Player B is better against Teran, and they're pretty comparable against Zerg. But the big difference is that I have a lot more data for Player B than for Player B. I'm confident Player B will perform quite well. Player B isn't going to win the tournament, but they definitely have a solid shot of getting into Ro8 and, with a little luck, Ro4. There is a chance Player A is going to do really well and make the finals, but there's also a chance they drown in Ro24 or early in Ro16. If I gave you the choice of two bets, one that's an even chance between getting $10, $55, and $100 and another that gives you $55 for sure, most people would take the sure thing. That's how I feel about Sharp versus Soma. They look about equal to me in expected value, but Sharp is much more of a known quantity, so I put him ahead. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States704 Posts
That said, I think he's the 3rd best protoss the way Artosis defines what's "good". Mini is worse than Bisu on average, but because there's more gimmicky variance in his play, he can win ASL, whereas Bisu is just extremely consistent at getting to the Ro8 before he gets sniped by someone like Hero. I think Mini has the very best probe micro for defending FFE against hydra bust. Rain impressed me by actually making Snow bleed in PvP, which Bisu couldn't really. Stork started actually playing strategies that aren't blind 2-base carriers sometime last year, and since then I put him as 5th best protoss. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On August 13 2025 05:53 zutt0 wrote: I'll give you the matchup spread and you tell me if it's obvious that one of these players is significantly better than the other: Soulkey: Player A: 1-2 Player B: 3-6 Hero: Player A: 1-0 Player B: 8-2 Queen: Player A: 4-2 Player B: 25-24 Light: Player A: 0-1 Player B: 1-2 Rush: Player A: 1-7 Player B: 2-3 Royal: Player A: 11-7 Player B: 5-3 Snow: Player A: 2-3 Player B: 3-15 Best Player A: 7-1 Player B: 10-12 Mini: Player A: 5-10 Player B: 12-22 I'd say that Player A is clearly better against Protoss, Player B is better against Teran, and they're pretty comparable against Zerg. But the big difference is that I have a lot more data for Player B than for Player B. I'm confident Player B will perform quite well. Player B isn't going to win the tournament, but they definitely have a solid shot of getting into Ro8 and, with a little luck, Ro4. There is a chance Player A is going to do really well and make the finals, but there's also a chance they drown in Ro24 or early in Ro16. If I gave you the choice of two bets, one that's an even chance between getting $10, $55, and $100 and another that gives you $55 for sure, most people would take the sure thing. That's how I feel about Sharp versus Soma. They look about equal to me in expected value, but Sharp is much more of a known quantity, so I put him ahead. I dont think you watch proleague at all. All pros pick Flash, soulkey, and then soma in that order. | ||
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pseudosignal
42 Posts
On August 13 2025 06:43 ThunderJunk wrote: Bisu is really, really good. I think he's the 3rd best protoss behind Snow and Best. He's also my favorite protoss. That said, I think he's the 3rd best protoss the way Artosis defines what's "good". Mini is worse than Bisu on average, but because there's more gimmicky variance in his play, he can win ASL, whereas Bisu is just extremely consistent at getting to the Ro8 before he gets sniped by someone like Hero. I think Mini has the very best probe micro for defending FFE against hydra bust. Rain impressed me by actually making Snow bleed in PvP, which Bisu couldn't really. Stork started actually playing strategies that aren't blind 2-base carriers sometime last year, and since then I put him as 5th best protoss. He forgot to research storm in a PvZ brother. | ||
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iopq
United States965 Posts
On August 13 2025 05:53 zutt0 wrote: I'll give you the matchup spread and you tell me if it's obvious that one of these players is significantly better than the other: Soulkey: Player A: 1-2 Player B: 3-6 Hero: Player A: 1-0 Player B: 8-2 Queen: Player A: 4-2 Player B: 25-24 Light: Player A: 0-1 Player B: 1-2 Rush: Player A: 1-7 Player B: 2-3 Royal: Player A: 11-7 Player B: 5-3 Snow: Player A: 2-3 Player B: 3-15 Best Player A: 7-1 Player B: 10-12 Mini: Player A: 5-10 Player B: 12-22 I'd say that Player A is clearly better against Protoss, Player B is better against Teran, and they're pretty comparable against Zerg. But the big difference is that I have a lot more data for Player B than for Player B. I'm confident Player B will perform quite well. Player B isn't going to win the tournament, but they definitely have a solid shot of getting into Ro8 and, with a little luck, Ro4. There is a chance Player A is going to do really well and make the finals, but there's also a chance they drown in Ro24 or early in Ro16. If I gave you the choice of two bets, one that's an even chance between getting $10, $55, and $100 and another that gives you $55 for sure, most people would take the sure thing. That's how I feel about Sharp versus Soma. They look about equal to me in expected value, but Sharp is much more of a known quantity, so I put him ahead. Sample size too small, you can't really make predictions of less than 100 games I'm looking at his entire game history prior going to the military and he's a top player by ELO ranking historically | ||
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