EPTits basically Luffy, the most talented pirate, got the best fruit, was inspired by a legend and trained with a legend... the dude is destined to be #1, flash is the real life version of this.
Does FlaSh owe his success to picking Terran? - Page 2
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XenOsky
Chile2298 Posts
its basically Luffy, the most talented pirate, got the best fruit, was inspired by a legend and trained with a legend... the dude is destined to be #1, flash is the real life version of this. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
On May 28 2023 11:16 Piste wrote: 2500 mmr is S-tier... No dude, terran is only hardest in the beginner level. These days terran mechanics are so easy, you can produce tanks, vessels, marines, scvs, stim, siege irritiade with one single button. Once you're at the level that you know the timings and are capable of macroing, terrans became incredibly hard to win vs. This is Brood War mate. No one button magic here. | ||
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Highgamer
1444 Posts
Answering yes would be absolutely ludacris... I doubt that many of even the hardcore Tesagi-supporters would want to claim such a thing. In 2010-12 people would look at you weird, thinking you're delusional. When BW-skill was at it's peak and widely considered the most balanced RTS ever, Flash stood apart from anyone else with his mastery of the game, even from those you'd give a good chance to beat him. Just look at his winrates and compare it to anyone else... Those 70%s across all matchups in that competitive environment stand for the ages, noone else comes even close. When he came back in the streaming-/ASL-era, the way he upped the competition overall and dominated again, pulling insane stuff like the ASL-run as random, proves that he's just special, gifted and incredibly hard working for BW. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway751 Posts
On May 28 2023 15:52 Highgamer wrote: "Does Flash owe his success to picking Terran (aka: racial advantage)?" Answering yes would be absolutely ludacris... I doubt that many of even the hardcore Tesagi-supporters would want to claim such a thing. In 2010-12 people would look at you weird, thinking you're delusional. When BW-skill was at it's peak and widely considered the most balanced RTS ever, Flash stood apart from anyone else with his mastery of the game, even from those you'd give a good chance to beat him. Just look at his winrates and compare it to anyone else... Those 70%s across all matchups in that competitive environment stand for the ages, noone else comes even close. When he came back in the streaming-/ASL-era, the way he upped the competition overall and dominated again, pulling insane stuff like the ASL-run as random, proves that he's just special, gifted and incredibly hard working for BW. Agree 100% | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
On May 28 2023 15:52 Highgamer wrote: "Does Flash owe his success to picking Terran (aka: racial advantage)?" Answering yes would be absolutely ludacris... I doubt that many of even the hardcore Tesagi-supporters would want to claim such a thing. In 2010-12 people would look at you weird, thinking you're delusional. When BW-skill was at it's peak and widely considered the most balanced RTS ever, Flash stood apart from anyone else with his mastery of the game, even from those you'd give a good chance to beat him. Just look at his winrates and compare it to anyone else... Those 70%s across all matchups in that competitive environment stand for the ages, noone else comes even close. When he came back in the streaming-/ASL-era, the way he upped the competition overall and dominated again, pulling insane stuff like the ASL-run as random, proves that he's just special, gifted and incredibly hard working for BW. I don't see how Flash being gifted, hard working etc. has to contradict him being helped by racial advantage. He can still benefit from both. If you acknowledge that Terran is stronger race then you already acknowledge that some percent of his win rate was helped by playing Terran. It's not even a matter of opinion, it's how logic works. Like in football you can admit Messi is a genius, he is the GOAT but you can also say he would have less success if he played for Stoke City instead of Barcelona. The real question is how many percent of his 70% win rate is helped by playing Terran. Certainly not a big part but it is more than 0%. | ||
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Highgamer
1444 Posts
On May 28 2023 18:40 TMNT wrote: The real question is how many percent of his 70% win rate is helped by playing Terran. Certainly not a big part but it is more than 0%. Does Flash owe his success to Tesagi? No, he is better than anyone else, that's why he had his success. Otherwise all Terrans would be considerably more successful. That's how logic works. "Owing something to something" in the above statement is just wrong, way out of proportion... What do you think how many percont of those 70% come from the racial advantage? 0.5? 1? 2? He's still way above the rest... edit: I'm not a football buff... but comparing the difference between, let's say, Protoss and Terran to Stoke and Barcelona... Not even biased Stoke diehard fans would agree I'm afraid... | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
Lol | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On May 28 2023 18:40 TMNT wrote: I don't see how Flash being gifted, hard working etc. has to contradict him being helped by racial advantage. He can still benefit from both. If you acknowledge that Terran is stronger race then you already acknowledge that some percent of his win rate was helped by playing Terran. It's not even a matter of opinion, it's how logic works. Like in football you can admit Messi is a genius, he is the GOAT but you can also say he would have less success if he played for Stoke City instead of Barcelona. The real question is how many percent of his 70% win rate is helped by playing Terran. Certainly not a big part but it is more than 0%. Why logic about racial advantage only works for Flash and some best Terran (Light, Last), it's not all Terran players? - I think Terran has no any advantage from race (except Ro4 and the finals of tournaments, so they usually win there, more than Protoss, Zerg). But StarCraft is not only Ro4, the finals but also Qualifiers, Ro24, Ro16... ladder. You know Terran is beat so much by Protoss, Zerg before there are some best Terran come the finals. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/asIW7HC.png) So many Terran players in Qualifiers, Ro24 from season 1 to season 15, but why only 9 Terran players can come in the finals? - Total is 15 times Terran in the finals but Flash, Light, Rush appeared 9/15. When ASL is not important anymore, we have more 3 new faces RoyaL, JyJ, Mind last seasons. Terran is not OP but Flash, Light, Last is OP. Maybe you will bring winrate of Terran compare to Protoss, Zerg in all matchup. I agree winrate of Terran is better but it's just a number. You can't require 50% all matchup, all maps to consider this game is the best balance. Terran wins 55%, it means they lost 45%. You have 45% to win, if you lose, it's not fault of Terran. I play Terran, I've played this game about 20 years and my peak level is C rank. And I know there are so many people like me who can't improve our skills even we play Terran so long time. We are beat by Protoss, Zerg players. Personally, my winrate TvZ is about 20% (more 99% in that 20% from BBS and Zerg quited game immediately when they see Terran). Most Zerg believe they can't beat Terran. I wish they watch sAviOr, July, Jaedong, Effort, ZerO, Soulkey, Zelot, Soma... play ZvT. | ||
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Highgamer
1444 Posts
On May 28 2023 19:29 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Simply acting like nada oov boxer fantasy mind last (ectish) don't exist. With ur statement.. Lol Make yourself clear. Lol | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4228 Posts
Partly? Of course. Still clearly the GOAT Starcraft player, btw. | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
On May 28 2023 18:53 Highgamer wrote: Does Flash owe his success to Tesagi? No, he is better than anyone else, that's why he had his success. Otherwise all Terrans would be considerably more successful. That's how logic works. "Owing something to something" in the above statement is just wrong, way out of proportion... What do you think how many percont of those 70% come from the racial advantage? 0.5? 1? 2? He's still way above the rest... edit: I'm not a football buff... but comparing the difference between, let's say, Protoss and Terran to Stoke and Barcelona... Not even biased Stoke diehard fans would agree I'm afraid... The football example was just to demonstrate the idea, not a like for like analogy. I think it's a matter of interpretation of the question really. Like, you interpret "owe" as either Flash fully owes his success to Tesagi or not at all. No inbetween. In that sense the answer is obviously no. But for me, his success was "helped" by playing the strongest race. Like I said, he might still be the best had he played Zerg or Protoss, but not by a distance as we saw with Terran., especially with Protoss. It could be like Maru vs Serral in SC2, I don't know. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
you can't just reach simultaneous 3 finals in a row on both MSL/OSL without skill difference, you just can't walk up there. Understood?" Flash did this thing again in ASL season 2,3,4. Now, who player can do this in ASL 16,17,18 with any race, any map. If there is a player can do it. The reason is from race, map or himself? StarCraft is competition between 2 players separately, it's not race or anything else but more 99% people don't know this. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/267099-flashs-surgery-has-been-successful ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rdTCV.jpeg) Jaedong is another player who practiced much harder than everyone else, but - unlike Flash, who recovered quite well - he's continued to struggle with wrist pain. Accordingly his results have been worse, and still are. Imagine if the roles were reversed. Would they say Jaedong is winning because he plays zerg? Absurd. | ||
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Postaljester_
33 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote: I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating I don’t agree that Terran is harder at those mmrs. The fact that players were able to put up such strong fights against Terran just shows how dedicated these pros are. Tesagi doesn’t mean 100% win rate. A 55/45 edge will have many losses but lead to an overall victory. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote: I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating Terran wasn't dogshit. The race was winning some tournaments during the Sonic era. It was fine. | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
On May 28 2023 22:45 Magic Powers wrote: Flash owes his success 100% to his skill, and his skill comes entirely from his dedication to his craft. No, he was certainly not helped by the "fact" that he played "the strongest race", as some people claim. The man practiced so much harder than everyone else that he required a crazy looking arm surgery due to his wrist pain. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/267099-flashs-surgery-has-been-successful Jaedong is another player who practiced much harder than everyone else, but - unlike Flash, who recovered quite well - he's continued to struggle with wrist pain. Accordingly his results have been worse, and still are. Imagine if the roles were reversed. Would they say Jaedong is winning because he plays zerg? Absurd. The injury argument can't be used because it also (mostly) depends on the physicality of each person. You can point to any other sport and it's not like you can say "oh this player practices harder than everyone because he has injuries". Do you think Rafael Nadal practices so much harder than Federer or Djokovic that he has more injuries? Or Messi and Ronaldo are lazy players because they don't have many injuries? And no, no one can say that about JD because unlike Flash, when you take him out of the equation, Zerg is not more dominant than Terran. If anything, JD has overperformed despite the slight disadvantage of Zerg against Terran and the maps, much like Savior, as Flash pointed out in the previous clip. But when you take Flash out, Terran still dominates in every metric, as we have seen in the last 2 years. It's ironic to me that in the same clip Flash could praise Savior for overcoming map disadvantage, but didn't acknowledge that that equally means Terran has the advantage, which means he is helped as well. Once again, it all comes down to how you quantify how much success can be attributed to skills and how much can be attributed to the tools you possess (in this case, the race). Let's say in a 100m race, Usain Bolt has running shoes but his opponents can only run with bare feet. Bolt will still finish 1st with world record. Nothing changes. But the athlete in 2nd place would come closer to his record if he has a pair of shoes. Now imagine they have to run like that (one with shoes and one with bare feet) for their entire career, then the gap between Bolt and the 2nd place runner would widen. If you assume there's race balance issue in BW, you have the exact same situation as the above. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2298 Posts
at bnet user level 3-5% is a very marginal and pretty much insignificant edge, but if you give 3% edge to the best gamer to ever live and u get 70% winrates. flash would have been the best player of his era with any race, but if he played protoss i can assure you that he would have lost a few finals that he wouldnt with terran, mb he would have lost prior to the finals in a silly fashion vs a top zerg or some shit like that... i mean he lost to effort a few times with terran... now imagine if flash played zerg, is flash winning zvz finals vs prime jaedong¿ or PvZ finals against effort, jd, zero¿ ... im not so sure. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On May 28 2023 23:36 TMNT wrote: The injury argument can't be used because it also (mostly) depends on the physicality of each person. You can point to any other sport and it's not like you can say "oh this player practices harder than everyone because he has injuries". Do you think Rafael Nadal practices so much harder than Federer or Djokovic that he has more injuries? Or Messi and Ronaldo are lazy players because they don't have many injuries? And no, no one can say that about JD because unlike Flash, when you take him out of the equation, Zerg is not more dominant than Terran. If anything, JD has overperformed despite the slight disadvantage of Zerg against Terran and the maps, much like Savior, as Flash pointed out in the previous clip. But when you take Flash out, Terran still dominates in every metric, as we have seen in the last 2 years. It's ironic to me that in the same clip Flash could praise Savior for overcoming map disadvantage, but didn't acknowledge that that equally means Terran has the advantage, which means he is helped as well. Once again, it all comes down to how you quantify how much success can be attributed to skills and how much can be attributed to the tools you possess (in this case, the race). Let's say in a 100m race, Usain Bolt has running shoes but his opponents can only run with bare feet. Bolt will still finish 1st with world record. Nothing changes. But the athlete in 2nd place would come closer to his record if he has a pair of shoes. Now imagine they have to run like that (one with shoes and one with bare feet) for their entire career, then the gap between Bolt and the 2nd place runner would widen. If you assume there's race balance issue in BW, you have the exact same situation as the above. First of all, I don't believe in the claim that terran is the strongest race. Every time someone posts T > P, I cringe. It's the opposite. Protoss has a natural edge against terran, and that's why terran isn't the strongest race. All matchups are slightly imbalanced, and no race has an overall advantage. The evidence to the contrary has never convinced me and it likely never will. Secondly, the reason why I posted Flash's surgery is because this is a major indicator of how hard someone works. Larva also started getting wrist issues after he became the best. It's a consistent theme for the top players. | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
On May 28 2023 23:49 Magic Powers wrote: First of all, I don't believe in the claim that terran is the strongest race. Every time someone posts T > P, I cringe. It's the opposite. Protoss has a natural edge against terran, and that's why terran isn't the strongest race. All matchups are slightly imbalanced, and no race has an overall advantage. The evidence to the contrary has never convinced me and it likely never will. . Yeah but stats dont lie. How do you explain the win rate that accumulated from tens of thousands of games? | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
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