EPTDoes FlaSh owe his success to picking Terran?
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
| ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
| ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
Could Flash have done the things Bisu did in PvZ? Hell no. But could Bisu have done what Flash did in every TvX MU? Also hell-fucking-no. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all. To sum up my thoughts though: - Is Tesagi true? Yes. - Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously. - Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history. - Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote: I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut? I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all. responds.... | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
Oh yeah I'm aware of that. It's Flash's fault, not yours. I don't mean to complain about the video maker. Just kinda disappointed with his responds. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote: I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut? I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all. To sum up my thoughts though: - Is Tesagi true? Yes. - Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously. - Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history. - Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that. I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating | ||
|
Puosu
6984 Posts
sounds smart | ||
|
Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote: I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut? I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all. To sum up my thoughts though: - Is Tesagi true? Yes. - Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously. - Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history. - Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that. This is a pretty accurate summary. | ||
|
TornadoSteve
1000 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote: I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating No doubt, his return helped. A lot. Last was doing a pretty decent job at that point, though. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote: I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating Tesagi for me is short for Terran being the strongest race at pro level. I think many others agree too. But not everyone is smart/knowledgable enough.There will be people who call Tesagi at every level, and there will be people claiming Protoss is easiest at top levels. You can't stop that. | ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Edit: Or give in and start playing Protoss  | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On May 28 2023 04:51 TornadoSteve wrote: No doubt, his return helped. A lot. Last was doing a pretty decent job at that point, though. Last literally copied flash's style and last himself said he studied flash fpvod.. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On May 28 2023 05:11 TMNT wrote: Tesagi for me is short for Terran being the strongest race at pro level. I think many others agree too. But not everyone is smart/knowledgable enough.There will be people who call Tesagi at every level, and there will be people claiming Protoss is easiest at top levels. You can't stop that. Tesagi was only achieved ~1.8 year after flash came back and started pumping out builds after builds and optimizing it. Weren't you aware of the scene that came before flash came? T was failing hard. Heck even shuttle won ASL lol | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 28 2023 04:19 Puosu wrote: Isn't the take away message here that, rather than thinking about tesagi/pusagi/zesagi, we should instill a culture of praising good performance and criticizing bad performance? sounds smart That is a valid point he made. In fact we lost Last partly due to fans (or anti-fans) drowning him with Tesagi comments. But then again, Flash was also partly responsible for sending Jangbi to his father's factories, only because he didn't mention his name when praising other pros. So... | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating I mean, Bisu is still dominating Mong Rush and Mind right now. He's not known for his PvT but still easily top 3 PvT at any given time. So I'm not sure Bisu dominating those guys means anything. On May 28 2023 06:18 Shinokuki wrote: Tesagi was only achieved ~1.8 year after flash came back and started pumping out builds after builds and optimizing it. Weren't you aware of the scene that came before flash came? T was failing hard. Heck even shuttle won ASL lol The post-Kespa pre-ASL era is somewhat a chaotic era at pro level, as some were still playing SC2, some were in the military, some went into (temporary) retirement, and some just hadn't found their form back. So I wouldn't read too much into it. That said, I don't think Terran was dogshit during that time. Here's the last 3 SonicTV Starleague (2014-2015): 9th 10th 11th. Terran occupied 9 out of 24 places in Ro8, 5 out of 12 places in Ro4, and 2 out of 6 places in finals. Not bad at all. Mind also won this pre-ASL tournament and Terran still occupied 3 places in the Ro8 of the VANT Starleague (ASL0). Terran also occupied 5 places in the Ro8 of ASL1 - the one that Shuttle won. Make no mistake, I made fun about Shuttle as well but he was a much better player in the early ASL seasons compared to post-military Shuttle. Somehow this resembles ASL15 where there were 5 Zergs but an unlikely winner (JYJ) took the crown. So in general I think you're overrating how bad Terran was back then. It's pretty much akin to seeing Terran getting battered by Snow right now and think most of them are dogshit. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On May 28 2023 08:27 TMNT wrote: I mean, Bisu is still dominating Mong Rush and Mind right now. He's not known for his PvT but still easily top 3 PvT at any given time. So I'm not sure Bisu dominating those guys means anything. The post-Kespa prior-ASL era is somewhat a chaotic era at pro level, as some were still playing SC2, some were in the military, some went into (temporary) retirement, and some just hadn't found their form back. So I wouldn't read too much into it. That said, I don't think Terran was dogshit during that time. Here's the last 3 SonicTV Starleague (2014-2015): 9th 10th 11th. Terran occupied 9 out of 24 places in Ro8, 5 out of 12 places in Ro4, and 2 out of 6 places in finals. Not bad at all. Mind also won this pre-ASL tournament and Terran still occupied 3 places in the Ro8 of the VANT Starleague (ASL0). Terran also occupied 5 places in the Ro8 of ASL1 - the one that Shuttle won. Make no mistake, I made fun about Shuttle as well but he was a much better player in the early ASL seasons compared to post-military Shuttle. So in general I think you're overrating how bad Terran was back then. It's pretty much akin to seeing Terran getting battered by Snow right now and think most of them are dogshit. I recall atmosphere among community regarding terran was at pretty much all time low and lots of claiming "solved race" was being thrown about and not even flash can fix this race attitude So exact opposite of tesagi memes the plagued at peak during flash asl dominance | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 28 2023 08:28 jinjin5000 wrote: I recall atmosphere among community regarding terran was at pretty much all time low and lots of claiming "solved race" was being thrown about and not even flash can fix this race attitude So exact opposite of tesagi memes the plagued at peak during flash asl dominance I think it pretty much has something to do with Flash's (and Fantasy) absence. They were so used to Flash's dominance that when Terran was at something like 33% (representation, not win rate) that it was considered a bad time. But when you look at their results in tournaments it wasn't that bad. It's pretty much in the same principle why Eclipse was called Pclipse but Terran still had over 50% win rate in TvP on that map. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On May 28 2023 08:27 TMNT wrote: I mean, Bisu is still dominating Mong Rush and Mind right now. He's not known for his PvT but still easily top 3 PvT at any given time. So I'm not sure Bisu dominating those guys means anything. The post-Kespa pre-ASL era is somewhat a chaotic era at pro level, as some were still playing SC2, some were in the military, some went into (temporary) retirement, and some just hadn't found their form back. So I wouldn't read too much into it. That said, I don't think Terran was dogshit during that time. Here's the last 3 SonicTV Starleague (2014-2015): 9th 10th 11th. Terran occupied 9 out of 24 places in Ro8, 5 out of 12 places in Ro4, and 2 out of 6 places in finals. Not bad at all. Mind also won this pre-ASL tournament and Terran still occupied 3 places in the Ro8 of the VANT Starleague (ASL0). Terran also occupied 5 places in the Ro8 of ASL1 - the one that Shuttle won. Make no mistake, I made fun about Shuttle as well but he was a much better player in the early ASL seasons compared to post-military Shuttle. Somehow this resembles ASL15 where there were 5 Zergs but an unlikely winner (JYJ) took the crown. So in general I think you're overrating how bad Terran was back then. It's pretty much akin to seeing Terran getting battered by Snow right now and think most of them are dogshit. I guess i was overrating just how bad terrans were but someone saying TESAGI just triggers me because i know what it did to last and the bw scene for a while.. | ||
|
Piste
6167 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote: I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating 2500 mmr is S-tier... No dude, terran is only hardest in the beginner level. These days terran mechanics are so easy, you can produce tanks, vessels, marines, scvs, stim, siege irritiade with one single button. Once you're at the level that you know the timings and are capable of macroing, terrans became incredibly hard to win vs. | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2219 Posts
its basically Luffy, the most talented pirate, got the best fruit, was inspired by a legend and trained with a legend... the dude is destined to be #1, flash is the real life version of this. | ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
On May 28 2023 11:16 Piste wrote: 2500 mmr is S-tier... No dude, terran is only hardest in the beginner level. These days terran mechanics are so easy, you can produce tanks, vessels, marines, scvs, stim, siege irritiade with one single button. Once you're at the level that you know the timings and are capable of macroing, terrans became incredibly hard to win vs. This is Brood War mate. No one button magic here. | ||
|
Highgamer
1399 Posts
Answering yes would be absolutely ludacris... I doubt that many of even the hardcore Tesagi-supporters would want to claim such a thing. In 2010-12 people would look at you weird, thinking you're delusional. When BW-skill was at it's peak and widely considered the most balanced RTS ever, Flash stood apart from anyone else with his mastery of the game, even from those you'd give a good chance to beat him. Just look at his winrates and compare it to anyone else... Those 70%s across all matchups in that competitive environment stand for the ages, noone else comes even close. When he came back in the streaming-/ASL-era, the way he upped the competition overall and dominated again, pulling insane stuff like the ASL-run as random, proves that he's just special, gifted and incredibly hard working for BW. | ||
|
Timebon3s
Norway643 Posts
On May 28 2023 15:52 Highgamer wrote: "Does Flash owe his success to picking Terran (aka: racial advantage)?" Answering yes would be absolutely ludacris... I doubt that many of even the hardcore Tesagi-supporters would want to claim such a thing. In 2010-12 people would look at you weird, thinking you're delusional. When BW-skill was at it's peak and widely considered the most balanced RTS ever, Flash stood apart from anyone else with his mastery of the game, even from those you'd give a good chance to beat him. Just look at his winrates and compare it to anyone else... Those 70%s across all matchups in that competitive environment stand for the ages, noone else comes even close. When he came back in the streaming-/ASL-era, the way he upped the competition overall and dominated again, pulling insane stuff like the ASL-run as random, proves that he's just special, gifted and incredibly hard working for BW. Agree 100% | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 28 2023 15:52 Highgamer wrote: "Does Flash owe his success to picking Terran (aka: racial advantage)?" Answering yes would be absolutely ludacris... I doubt that many of even the hardcore Tesagi-supporters would want to claim such a thing. In 2010-12 people would look at you weird, thinking you're delusional. When BW-skill was at it's peak and widely considered the most balanced RTS ever, Flash stood apart from anyone else with his mastery of the game, even from those you'd give a good chance to beat him. Just look at his winrates and compare it to anyone else... Those 70%s across all matchups in that competitive environment stand for the ages, noone else comes even close. When he came back in the streaming-/ASL-era, the way he upped the competition overall and dominated again, pulling insane stuff like the ASL-run as random, proves that he's just special, gifted and incredibly hard working for BW. I don't see how Flash being gifted, hard working etc. has to contradict him being helped by racial advantage. He can still benefit from both. If you acknowledge that Terran is stronger race then you already acknowledge that some percent of his win rate was helped by playing Terran. It's not even a matter of opinion, it's how logic works. Like in football you can admit Messi is a genius, he is the GOAT but you can also say he would have less success if he played for Stoke City instead of Barcelona. The real question is how many percent of his 70% win rate is helped by playing Terran. Certainly not a big part but it is more than 0%. | ||
|
Highgamer
1399 Posts
On May 28 2023 18:40 TMNT wrote: The real question is how many percent of his 70% win rate is helped by playing Terran. Certainly not a big part but it is more than 0%. Does Flash owe his success to Tesagi? No, he is better than anyone else, that's why he had his success. Otherwise all Terrans would be considerably more successful. That's how logic works. "Owing something to something" in the above statement is just wrong, way out of proportion... What do you think how many percont of those 70% come from the racial advantage? 0.5? 1? 2? He's still way above the rest... edit: I'm not a football buff... but comparing the difference between, let's say, Protoss and Terran to Stoke and Barcelona... Not even biased Stoke diehard fans would agree I'm afraid... | ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
Lol | ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On May 28 2023 18:40 TMNT wrote: I don't see how Flash being gifted, hard working etc. has to contradict him being helped by racial advantage. He can still benefit from both. If you acknowledge that Terran is stronger race then you already acknowledge that some percent of his win rate was helped by playing Terran. It's not even a matter of opinion, it's how logic works. Like in football you can admit Messi is a genius, he is the GOAT but you can also say he would have less success if he played for Stoke City instead of Barcelona. The real question is how many percent of his 70% win rate is helped by playing Terran. Certainly not a big part but it is more than 0%. Why logic about racial advantage only works for Flash and some best Terran (Light, Last), it's not all Terran players? - I think Terran has no any advantage from race (except Ro4 and the finals of tournaments, so they usually win there, more than Protoss, Zerg). But StarCraft is not only Ro4, the finals but also Qualifiers, Ro24, Ro16... ladder. You know Terran is beat so much by Protoss, Zerg before there are some best Terran come the finals. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/asIW7HC.png) So many Terran players in Qualifiers, Ro24 from season 1 to season 15, but why only 9 Terran players can come in the finals? - Total is 15 times Terran in the finals but Flash, Light, Rush appeared 9/15. When ASL is not important anymore, we have more 3 new faces RoyaL, JyJ, Mind last seasons. Terran is not OP but Flash, Light, Last is OP. Maybe you will bring winrate of Terran compare to Protoss, Zerg in all matchup. I agree winrate of Terran is better but it's just a number. You can't require 50% all matchup, all maps to consider this game is the best balance. Terran wins 55%, it means they lost 45%. You have 45% to win, if you lose, it's not fault of Terran. I play Terran, I've played this game about 20 years and my peak level is C rank. And I know there are so many people like me who can't improve our skills even we play Terran so long time. We are beat by Protoss, Zerg players. Personally, my winrate TvZ is about 20% (more 99% in that 20% from BBS and Zerg quited game immediately when they see Terran). Most Zerg believe they can't beat Terran. I wish they watch sAviOr, July, Jaedong, Effort, ZerO, Soulkey, Zelot, Soma... play ZvT. | ||
|
Highgamer
1399 Posts
On May 28 2023 19:29 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Simply acting like nada oov boxer fantasy mind last (ectish) don't exist. With ur statement.. Lol Make yourself clear. Lol | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4165 Posts
Partly? Of course. Still clearly the GOAT Starcraft player, btw. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 28 2023 18:53 Highgamer wrote: Does Flash owe his success to Tesagi? No, he is better than anyone else, that's why he had his success. Otherwise all Terrans would be considerably more successful. That's how logic works. "Owing something to something" in the above statement is just wrong, way out of proportion... What do you think how many percont of those 70% come from the racial advantage? 0.5? 1? 2? He's still way above the rest... edit: I'm not a football buff... but comparing the difference between, let's say, Protoss and Terran to Stoke and Barcelona... Not even biased Stoke diehard fans would agree I'm afraid... The football example was just to demonstrate the idea, not a like for like analogy. I think it's a matter of interpretation of the question really. Like, you interpret "owe" as either Flash fully owes his success to Tesagi or not at all. No inbetween. In that sense the answer is obviously no. But for me, his success was "helped" by playing the strongest race. Like I said, he might still be the best had he played Zerg or Protoss, but not by a distance as we saw with Terran., especially with Protoss. It could be like Maru vs Serral in SC2, I don't know. | ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
you can't just reach simultaneous 3 finals in a row on both MSL/OSL without skill difference, you just can't walk up there. Understood?" Flash did this thing again in ASL season 2,3,4. Now, who player can do this in ASL 16,17,18 with any race, any map. If there is a player can do it. The reason is from race, map or himself? StarCraft is competition between 2 players separately, it's not race or anything else but more 99% people don't know this. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/267099-flashs-surgery-has-been-successful ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rdTCV.jpeg) Jaedong is another player who practiced much harder than everyone else, but - unlike Flash, who recovered quite well - he's continued to struggle with wrist pain. Accordingly his results have been worse, and still are. Imagine if the roles were reversed. Would they say Jaedong is winning because he plays zerg? Absurd. | ||
|
Postaljester_
27 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote: I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating I don’t agree that Terran is harder at those mmrs. The fact that players were able to put up such strong fights against Terran just shows how dedicated these pros are. Tesagi doesn’t mean 100% win rate. A 55/45 edge will have many losses but lead to an overall victory. | ||
|
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote: I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating Terran wasn't dogshit. The race was winning some tournaments during the Sonic era. It was fine. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 28 2023 22:45 Magic Powers wrote: Flash owes his success 100% to his skill, and his skill comes entirely from his dedication to his craft. No, he was certainly not helped by the "fact" that he played "the strongest race", as some people claim. The man practiced so much harder than everyone else that he required a crazy looking arm surgery due to his wrist pain. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/267099-flashs-surgery-has-been-successful Jaedong is another player who practiced much harder than everyone else, but - unlike Flash, who recovered quite well - he's continued to struggle with wrist pain. Accordingly his results have been worse, and still are. Imagine if the roles were reversed. Would they say Jaedong is winning because he plays zerg? Absurd. The injury argument can't be used because it also (mostly) depends on the physicality of each person. You can point to any other sport and it's not like you can say "oh this player practices harder than everyone because he has injuries". Do you think Rafael Nadal practices so much harder than Federer or Djokovic that he has more injuries? Or Messi and Ronaldo are lazy players because they don't have many injuries? And no, no one can say that about JD because unlike Flash, when you take him out of the equation, Zerg is not more dominant than Terran. If anything, JD has overperformed despite the slight disadvantage of Zerg against Terran and the maps, much like Savior, as Flash pointed out in the previous clip. But when you take Flash out, Terran still dominates in every metric, as we have seen in the last 2 years. It's ironic to me that in the same clip Flash could praise Savior for overcoming map disadvantage, but didn't acknowledge that that equally means Terran has the advantage, which means he is helped as well. Once again, it all comes down to how you quantify how much success can be attributed to skills and how much can be attributed to the tools you possess (in this case, the race). Let's say in a 100m race, Usain Bolt has running shoes but his opponents can only run with bare feet. Bolt will still finish 1st with world record. Nothing changes. But the athlete in 2nd place would come closer to his record if he has a pair of shoes. Now imagine they have to run like that (one with shoes and one with bare feet) for their entire career, then the gap between Bolt and the 2nd place runner would widen. If you assume there's race balance issue in BW, you have the exact same situation as the above. | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2219 Posts
at bnet user level 3-5% is a very marginal and pretty much insignificant edge, but if you give 3% edge to the best gamer to ever live and u get 70% winrates. flash would have been the best player of his era with any race, but if he played protoss i can assure you that he would have lost a few finals that he wouldnt with terran, mb he would have lost prior to the finals in a silly fashion vs a top zerg or some shit like that... i mean he lost to effort a few times with terran... now imagine if flash played zerg, is flash winning zvz finals vs prime jaedong¿ or PvZ finals against effort, jd, zero¿ ... im not so sure. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
On May 28 2023 23:36 TMNT wrote: The injury argument can't be used because it also (mostly) depends on the physicality of each person. You can point to any other sport and it's not like you can say "oh this player practices harder than everyone because he has injuries". Do you think Rafael Nadal practices so much harder than Federer or Djokovic that he has more injuries? Or Messi and Ronaldo are lazy players because they don't have many injuries? And no, no one can say that about JD because unlike Flash, when you take him out of the equation, Zerg is not more dominant than Terran. If anything, JD has overperformed despite the slight disadvantage of Zerg against Terran and the maps, much like Savior, as Flash pointed out in the previous clip. But when you take Flash out, Terran still dominates in every metric, as we have seen in the last 2 years. It's ironic to me that in the same clip Flash could praise Savior for overcoming map disadvantage, but didn't acknowledge that that equally means Terran has the advantage, which means he is helped as well. Once again, it all comes down to how you quantify how much success can be attributed to skills and how much can be attributed to the tools you possess (in this case, the race). Let's say in a 100m race, Usain Bolt has running shoes but his opponents can only run with bare feet. Bolt will still finish 1st with world record. Nothing changes. But the athlete in 2nd place would come closer to his record if he has a pair of shoes. Now imagine they have to run like that (one with shoes and one with bare feet) for their entire career, then the gap between Bolt and the 2nd place runner would widen. If you assume there's race balance issue in BW, you have the exact same situation as the above. First of all, I don't believe in the claim that terran is the strongest race. Every time someone posts T > P, I cringe. It's the opposite. Protoss has a natural edge against terran, and that's why terran isn't the strongest race. All matchups are slightly imbalanced, and no race has an overall advantage. The evidence to the contrary has never convinced me and it likely never will. Secondly, the reason why I posted Flash's surgery is because this is a major indicator of how hard someone works. Larva also started getting wrist issues after he became the best. It's a consistent theme for the top players. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 28 2023 23:49 Magic Powers wrote: First of all, I don't believe in the claim that terran is the strongest race. Every time someone posts T > P, I cringe. It's the opposite. Protoss has a natural edge against terran, and that's why terran isn't the strongest race. All matchups are slightly imbalanced, and no race has an overall advantage. The evidence to the contrary has never convinced me and it likely never will. . Yeah but stats dont lie. How do you explain the win rate that accumulated from tens of thousands of games? | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
| ||
|
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 29 2023 00:20 TMNT wrote: Yeah but stats dont lie. How do you explain the win rate that accumulated from tens of thousands of games? How can you claim that the game is inherently imbalanced when we have the stats? That imply that it isn't? | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
On May 29 2023 00:20 TMNT wrote: Yeah but stats dont lie. How do you explain the win rate that accumulated from tens of thousands of games? There are several explanations. For example the number of players at the very top is very small, which makes for a tiny sample size of players representing each race. Therefore, if any skill differences exist between the players (in each single matchup) - and we know the differences are very significant, e.g. between Light and Flash or between Soma and Jaedong, etc. - the variability of win rates is much greater than at any lower skill level. Another reason is the ongoing meta change as a result of lone individuals at the absolute top of the ranks revolutionizing a matchup. Flash, being the best player of all time, has advanced terran more than any other player since Boxer and iloveoov. For example he was defeated by Stork 0-3. Soon after, he defeated Stork 3-0. This was not a coincidence. Stork had Flash's number up to that point, in fact he had every terran player's number. But Flash ingeniusly spotted and revealed the exact weaknesses in Stork's strategies and exploited them perfectly to completely flip things around. His discoveries are still in use today and have become standard procedure for terran. The same thing happened in PvZ because of Bisu. Without him, the matchup might look completely broken today, unless coincidentally another top player had reached the very top and showed the world how to play the matchup correctly. Thanks to Bisu PvZ is actually playable, without him it would've made protoss look completely inferior at the highest level. It also happened in ZvT because of Larva. Late/post Kespa Flash was perfecting the quick mech transition that made zerg players afraid of having to enter the late game - not just afraid, but hugely frustrated. The matchup was beginning to look completely broken, to the point that I was questioning Rush's refusal to switch his style from his beloved ultra-high m&m aggression to the modern - broken looking - mech transitions. Larva was a nobody, laughed at by the community. But he battled Flash over hundreds of games and got defeated many times, until eventually he had the brilliant idea to tech up to queen broodling faster and faster, and still faster, until he had queens ready almost as fast as Flash had tanks. It got to the point that Flash realized he wasn't only facing an equal opponent, but someone who was outplaying him consistently in the late game. ZvT started to look broken, terran players were feeling hopeless for a brief time in history (except for Rush). Flash had no answer to Larva's brilliant late game strategies and he realized he had to switch back to hyper-aggressive m&m builds (and a few wraith builds) to even have a chance against Larva. This was very frustrating for Larva at first, but eventually he caught up and became an almost equal opponent for Flash, resulting in Larva's eventual ASL victory. I could keep going like this. I know the SC meta history almost inside out, and I can say with confidence that meta changes have a massive impact on matchup balance. | ||
|
Bonyth
Poland541 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 29 2023 02:19 Magic Powers wrote: There are several explanations. For example the number of players at the very top is very small, which makes for a tiny sample size of players representing each race. Therefore, if any skill differences exist between the players (in each single matchup) - and we know the differences are very significant, e.g. between Light and Flash or between Soma and Jaedong, etc. - the variability of win rates is much greater than at any lower skill level. Another reason is the ongoing meta change as a result of lone individuals at the absolute top of the ranks revolutionizing a matchup. Flash, being the best player of all time, has advanced terran more than any other player since Boxer and iloveoov. For example he was defeated by Stork 0-3. Soon after, he defeated Stork 3-0. This was not a coincidence. Stork had Flash's number up to that point, in fact he had every terran player's number. But Flash ingeniusly spotted and revealed the exact weaknesses in Stork's strategies and exploited them perfectly to completely flip things around. His discoveries are still in use today and have become standard procedure for terran. The same thing happened in PvZ because of Bisu. Without him, the matchup might look completely broken today, unless coincidentally another top player had reached the very top and showed the world how to play the matchup correctly. Thanks to Bisu PvZ is actually playable, without him it would've made protoss look completely inferior at the highest level. It also happened in ZvT because of Larva. Late/post Kespa Flash was perfecting the quick mech transition that made zerg players afraid of having to enter the late game - not just afraid, but hugely frustrated. The matchup was beginning to look completely broken, to the point that I was questioning Rush's refusal to switch his style from his beloved ultra-high m&m aggression to the modern - broken looking - mech transitions. Larva was a nobody, laughed at by the community. But he battled Flash over hundreds of games and got defeated many times, until eventually he had the brilliant idea to tech up to queen broodling faster and faster, and still faster, until he had queens ready almost as fast as Flash had tanks. It got to the point that Flash realized he wasn't only facing an equal opponent, but someone who was outplaying him consistently in the late game. ZvT started to look broken, terran players were feeling hopeless for a brief time in history (except for Rush). Flash had no answer to Larva's brilliant late game strategies and he realized he had to switch back to hyper-aggressive m&m builds (and a few wraith builds) to even have a chance against Larva. This was very frustrating for Larva at first, but eventually he caught up and became an almost equal opponent for Flash, resulting in Larva's eventual ASL victory. I could keep going like this. I know the SC meta history almost inside out, and I can say with confidence that meta changes have a massive impact on matchup balance. Very well written. But what we can obtain from that is: over time, meta changes, balance changes, matchups will favor a race at a given time and then reverse,... Am I right? But if the game is perfectly balanced, eventually all win rates should regress to 50%, right? How many times, and at which years in BW history did we meet the regression point? I can't find that picture now because sponbbang seems dead but there was a graph showing the win rates of the 3 matchups over time, and PvZ and PvT are consistenly below 50% for almost all times. Opposite for TvZ and TvP. The "big data" here seems to not fit your explanation. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
At progamer level I think things are far too variable over the span of only a few years for us to be able to say anything with certainty. Last time terran players were complaining about "crazy zerg", a whole bunch of wineries entered business along with booming cheese factories. Those tears dried up real quick, I haven't heard from them since. When progamers discover a new exploit, they push it to the absolute limits, demanding that the dominated race undergoes a meta change and flips the table back. That's not easy. It's far easier to drive an exploit to its limits than to find a counter to it. Something that has always stuck out to me was the fact that protoss rarely had a true frontrunner to rely on. Terran had many, from Boxer to Flash. Zerg had a few from Yellow to Savior and then Jaedong. Bisu was really the only one so far for protoss, except perhaps for Stork in PvT specifically. No disrespect to the other dragons, but they all failed in the quest to save PvZ, and PvT never needed much saving anyway. Far from it, terran players have always complained about carriers to the point that it became a constant meme. Flash saved terran players from auto-quitting TvP, but never more than that. Snow is a good example of what happens when true skill shines. He dominates PvT just as I would expect it from the top protoss player. He beats PvZ by a much lesser margin, also expected because it's always been the troublesome matchup. If Snow improves his PvP, I expect him to win an ASL sometime soon. Sincerely, I don't believe that the most recent data from the top players proves that PvT is unfavorable for protoss. I believe the top protoss players have been slacking - including even Bisu, who I think should be winning a lot more games if he were to practice more. Mini and Snow have been pushing against that trend by inventing new strategies and practicing much harder in comparison. But this takes years. They both have been working on this for a long time, and only recently has it come to fruition. Snow in particular has been leading for months now, it's crazy to see how well he's doing considering he's still slacking in PvP. I think he'll be better than Light as soon as he fixes that. | ||
|
castleeMg
Canada758 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
On May 29 2023 04:23 TMNT wrote: Will get back to the other points later but how did you get the impression that Snow's lacking in PvP? He's only negative against Mini and not by large margin. Also the recent stats shows he's 50-50 against Bisu but it's a small sample size thing and if you actually watch the games, his play is just much better than Bisu. He wipes the floor against Best and Shuttle. I think Snow is slacking in PvP because he's dominating so much in PvT. I think he should be dominating PvP in a way that comes close to his PvT. My guess is he doesn't have the same expertise in PvP. That's expected in the age of streaming due to mirror matchups being less popular, but it's still a problem for him if he wants to win an ASL. | ||
|
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On May 29 2023 04:39 Magic Powers wrote: ..I think Snow is slacking in PvP because he's dominating so much in PvT. I think he should be dominating PvP in a way that comes close to his PvT. ... This does not sound very logical to me? And in general: Dont judge match ups by your own impression (or foreigners impressions). P>T might be true for the average SCBW player. But that is not the topic on hand is it? I mean if you have a lot of experience in SCBW it doesnt bewilder you to realize that a) PvT is much easier at a lowish (or even very high but non pro level) than playing TvP is and at the same time b) TvP might be a match up that is favourable for the Terrans at the very very highest level (OSL,MSL,ASL,Pro League ect..) In the end this discussion feels a bit dumb anyway.. who knows.. precisely..and the margins are very small anyways probably. It is extremely tough to find out how well the likes of Flash oOv and NaDa would have done in their carreers with a different race. Also a small hint that Terran might be a tad more powerful than Toss and Zerg: Remember map makers changing terrain and making unbuildable spaces? Making A LOT unbuildable spaces? Changing the ("high ground over expansions LT style").. ect.. Can you name me a thing they changed that was oppressive from Tosses point of view? Remember maps with very wide/weird naturals? (Rush Hour e.g.).. a nightmare for Tosses in PvZ.. Uh..in the end Im not sure tbh.. I think the hardest part ist what to make of certain numbers tbh.. ;/ | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
It's almost by miracle that somehow nowadays the game is balanced enough that ground maps and some semi-island maps are a good enough solution to create a roughly equal overall game balance. Muta stacking for example had the potential to break the game, but people just accepted it and adapted. Nowadays we'd be asking how zerg can even survive without it. I think this will always be the fate of the game. It's balanced because of discoveries, but the balance is also always in question because of those same exact discoveries. And discoveries - not balance - are also the reason why the game is so great. It's more of a fortunate fact that the game still isn't considered broken after so many (all natural) changes. I expect more discoveries to be made. Maybe more things that favor protoss will eventually come up, and I think Snow is people's best bet, but Mini could perhaps also innovate a few more things (as he's already done before). Maybe not fancy tricks like the valkyrie backslide, but more tactical improvements like various smart HT positioning setups against muta raids, and strategic ideas like the race for the leftover late game base. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
It's almost like you also acknowledge that the game has not been balanced at specific times but your sentiment is some players would come up with a new build/strategy/trick to balance it up. Well, two things: - Back to my earlier points: where were the regression points in history? where were the points where Zerg and especially Protoss caught up with Terran in terms of success. For example, if we're talking very raw numbers, that would mean Zerg and Protoss have to win the next 8 ASLs to balance it up with Terran. I dont see that coming honestly. Obviously there were periods of Zerg/Protoss dominance, short or long, but that doesn't necessarily mean all 3 races are equal. If Terran won 5 titles and Protoss had a "dominant" period where they won 2, in your book it feels like Terran and Protoss take turn to dominate so you think it's okay. But quantifiably it's not. - What if the innovations you expected never come? What if a race has already reached their limit (aka lower ceiling)? To be honest the lastest significant discovery of Protoss was still Bisu's revolution. Carrier is not new. The new Carrier micro trick is useless. Shuttle play has been around for ages and the trending mass Shuttle play that Best and Mini are using is more of a deviation than innovation that favors Protoss. Mini cutting every corner in PvZ turns out to be just gimmicks or tournament builds at best. And most importantly, none of them actually improved Protoss' win rate. Long story short, if a race's win rate over time looks like the blue curve in this picture (corresponding to the ups and downs thanks to innovations/maps that you mentioned), I'd agree that the game is balanced according to your standards: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/bSBSlEY.png) But in reality it looks like the red curve (this is probably the PvZ curve lol, while TvZ is the opposite). So how much sentiment you put into rationalizing it, doesn't really matter when the objectifiable, quantifiable truths are still there. | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2219 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/TovNgzT.png) MSL + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/H1r5wWq.png) GOMTV Classic + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/XeIWRQE.png) WCG + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AtsmXdO.png) SSL + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/KWDdvJ1.png) KSL + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0bd6kS6.png) PRE ASL + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NzHaIo0.png) ASL + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3Z26wCY.png) TERRAN # OF CHAMPS : 48 ZERG # OF CHAMPS: 36 PROTOSS # OF CHAMPS: 24 history is history, tesagi is real. terran is the most dominant race in every competition that existed, theres just a few cases were zerg is equal to terran in # of championships. in no competition Protoss was the most winning race. if you add the KPGA tour, terran has like +4 more titles... also protoss has -1 title, cause of grrr being listed as protoss, but he race picked and played random during his OSL win... | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On May 29 2023 13:07 XenOsky wrote: OSL + Show Spoiler + MSL + Show Spoiler + GOMTV Classic + Show Spoiler + WCG + Show Spoiler + SSL + Show Spoiler + KSL + Show Spoiler + PRE ASL + Show Spoiler + ASL + Show Spoiler + TERRAN # OF CHAMPS : 48 ZERG # OF CHAMPS: 36 PROTOSS # OF CHAMPS: 24 history is history, tesagi is real. terran is the most dominant race in every competition that existed, theres just a few cases were zerg is equal to terran in # of championships. in no competition Protoss was the most winning race. if you add the KPGA tour, terran has like +4 more titles... also protoss has -1 title, cause of grrr being listed as protoss, but he race picked and played random during his OSL win... All of this rant won't do shit to korean scene :p and it's well known protoss is the strongest race at our levels so what's the complaining here? Just analyze your reps, grind ladder, and ask for help. Sounds like a quitter who just wants to blame things for his inability to exceed 1600 mmr . BTW, bw is imba. It's only balanced by maps ^^ | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2219 Posts
thanks for the super indeep class about getin gud in sc1 tho, really needed someone to tell me to analyze reps, didn't know that, very usefull, with that in mind im sure that i can get at least D rank this season. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On May 29 2023 13:36 XenOsky wrote: the thread is about flash winning cause of terran, and im talking 100% about pro starcraft. at no point i said anything about me or about racial imbalance between foreginers. thanks for the super indeep class about getin gud in sc1 tho, really needed someone to tell me to analyze reps, didn't know that, very usefull, with that in mind im sure that i can get at least D rank this season. You're welcome my friend. DM me anytime if you need help. | ||
|
Timebon3s
Norway643 Posts
On May 29 2023 13:35 Shinokuki wrote: All of this rant won't do shit to korean scene :p and it's well known protoss is the strongest race at our levels so what's the complaining here? Just analyze your reps, grind ladder, and ask for help. Sounds like a quitter who just wants to blame things for his inability to exceed 1600 mmr . BTW, bw is imba. It's only balanced by maps ^^ This was a really bad post/troll. | ||
|
REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
On May 29 2023 11:49 TMNT wrote: I dont raelly have any disagreement with your analysis of meta changes and etc, but also feel they are more like sentiments, not explanations, and they don't exactly address the problems at hand. It's almost like you also acknowledge that the game has not been balanced at specific times but your sentiment is some players would come up with a new build/strategy/trick to balance it up. Well, two things: - Back to my earlier points: where were the regression points in history? where were the points where Zerg and especially Protoss caught up with Terran in terms of success. For example, if we're talking very raw numbers, that would mean Zerg and Protoss have to win the next 8 ASLs to balance it up with Terran. I dont see that coming honestly. Obviously there were periods of Zerg/Protoss dominance, short or long, but that doesn't necessarily mean all 3 races are equal. If Terran won 5 titles and Protoss had a "dominant" period where they won 2, in your book it feels like Terran and Protoss take turn to dominate so you think it's okay. But quantifiably it's not. - What if the innovations you expected never come? What if a race has already reached their limit (aka lower ceiling)? To be honest the lastest significant discovery of Protoss was still Bisu's revolution. Carrier is not new. The new Carrier micro trick is useless. Shuttle play has been around for ages and the trending mass Shuttle play that Best and Mini are using is more of a deviation than innovation that favors Protoss. Mini cutting every corner in PvZ turns out to be just gimmicks or tournament builds at best. And most importantly, none of them actually improved Protoss' win rate. Long story short, if a race's win rate over time looks like the blue curve in this picture (corresponding to the ups and downs thanks to innovations/maps that you mentioned), I'd agree that the game is balanced according to your standards: But in reality it looks like the red curve (this is probably the PvZ curve lol, while TvZ is the opposite). So how much sentiment you put into rationalizing it, doesn't really matter when the objectifiable, quantifiable truths are still there. It takes years for a player to become number one. It takes a similar amount of time for the frontrunner effect to change a matchup statistic. For example because of Boxer and Yellow, many Koreans were inspired to practice terran and zerg, and while only few of them made it to the top, they helped push the meta and the win rate. The protoss meta stagnated, perhaps because Garimto, Nal_rA, Kingdom, Reach and Anytime didn't have the same pull. Anytime in particular looked very interesting for a brief period, but something stopped him. The lack of optimizations wasn't because protoss couldn't be innovated, as Bisu proved a few years later with fast expand builds and his infamous dark templars, or with Stork using carriers to make PvT look broken. Had these two popped up sooner as top players, maybe a larger share of protoss players would've pushed through with optimizations. Especially terran players would've suffered from that. But instead Bisu had to carry the crown all by himself. Innovation rarely comes from only one person. This is why it's so important to acknowledge the historic changes as something fluid and dynamic, but certainly not fair or equal. As the meta progresses, the level of meta variability is more likely to be reduced while matchup fairness is more likely to increase, and that's exactly what we've been observing. Maps and matchups used to have more imbalances than nowadays, and big meta changes used to occur much more often. Just consider: what would've happened without iloveoov showing that terran has strong macro capabilities in every matchup? Or without Flash and his race to 3 weapons upgrades in TvP? I think both protoss and zerg would've stood a much better chance for years longer. But instead we had Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, Flash, and Fantasy, five top players who innovated terran and they also showed the results to prove the viability of their ideas. And Flash stuck around for so many years that more of his optimizations just kept coming. For zerg it was Yellow, Savior and Jaedong, and later also Larva, and there were a few more top zerg players who also brought optimizations like JulyZerg and GGPlay. Protoss had only three or four players at the very top with Nal_rA, Reach, Bisu and Stork. They stood up against a large number of innovators from the other two races. Out of these four, only Bisu was ever truly dominant. What would've happened if Rain had stuck around post-ASL? He was among the greatest hopes for protoss. What about Jangbi late Kespa? He looked promising, but his drive was lacking. It took many years before Mini and Snow finally popped onto the scene, and they've been making big splashes. Mini has already innovated and optimized a few things in PvZ, and Snow has found further optimizations, plus he has pushed PvT back in protoss' favor. It's now an open buffet for other protoss players. They can absorb this new information and push it further, or they can let it waste away and protoss will continue to suffer from a lack of talent. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
Tbh from all the names you dropped there, it feels like Protoss doesn't have a lack of talents either. So I'm even more leaning towards the opinion that the race itself offers less room to innovate, which is why they're underpowered. Also keep in mind that one factor that favors Snow and Mini in years to come is age. The pro player pool's year of birth literally stops at 1995 (Soma and Royal) and the next youngest are Mini (1994) and Snow (1993). Majority of the rest were born in 1989-1991. I'm currently theorising that when Soma and Royal went to military (next year), the Protoss pair will just dominate everyone else and that will has nothing to do with innovation and frontrunning etc. But let's see if it actually happens. Or if Flash will return and Terran will keep dominating again. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
| ||
|
Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On May 29 2023 17:39 Magic Powers wrote: It takes years for a player to become number one. It takes a similar amount of time for the frontrunner effect to change a matchup statistic. For example because of Boxer and Yellow, many Koreans were inspired to practice terran and zerg, and while only few of them made it to the top, they helped push the meta and the win rate. The protoss meta stagnated, perhaps because Garimto, Nal_rA, Kingdom, Reach and Anytime didn't have the same pull. Anytime in particular looked very interesting for a brief period, but something stopped him. The lack of optimizations wasn't because protoss couldn't be innovated, as Bisu proved a few years later with fast expand builds and his infamous dark templars, or with Stork using carriers to make PvT look broken. Had these two popped up sooner as top players, maybe a larger share of protoss players would've pushed through with optimizations. Especially terran players would've suffered from that. But instead Bisu had to carry the crown all by himself. Innovation rarely comes from only one person. This is why it's so important to acknowledge the historic changes as something fluid and dynamic, but certainly not fair or equal. As the meta progresses, the level of meta variability is more likely to be reduced while matchup fairness is more likely to increase, and that's exactly what we've been observing. Maps and matchups used to have more imbalances than nowadays, and big meta changes used to occur much more often. Just consider: what would've happened without iloveoov showing that terran has strong macro capabilities in every matchup? Or without Flash and his race to 3 weapons upgrades in TvP? I think both protoss and zerg would've stood a much better chance for years longer. But instead we had Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, Flash, and Fantasy, five top players who innovated terran and they also showed the results to prove the viability of their ideas. And Flash stuck around for so many years that more of his optimizations just kept coming. For zerg it was Yellow, Savior and Jaedong, and later also Larva, and there were a few more top zerg players who also brought optimizations like JulyZerg and GGPlay. Protoss had only three or four players at the very top with Nal_rA, Reach, Bisu and Stork. They stood up against a large number of innovators from the other two races. Out of these four, only Bisu was ever truly dominant. What would've happened if Rain had stuck around post-ASL? He was among the greatest hopes for protoss. What about Jangbi late Kespa? He looked promising, but his drive was lacking. It took many years before Mini and Snow finally popped onto the scene, and they've been making big splashes. Mini has already innovated and optimized a few things in PvZ, and Snow has found further optimizations, plus he has pushed PvT back in protoss' favor. It's now an open buffet for other protoss players. They can absorb this new information and push it further, or they can let it waste away and protoss will continue to suffer from a lack of talent. I think you have a big part of the story wrong. Bisu and Best were playing as early as 2005 there were even some WCG reps going around from them, Stork probably active since 2002 or 2003. When you say Protoss meta stagnated early on you are making the big assumption that there was something to improve on at that time. No wonder Reach couldn't beat Savior or July, I mean look at the map pool. Seriously. Somehow every time the argument against Protoss players always revolve around "they are just not good enough" or hinting at Terran/Zerg players being geniuses. In the end there are just as many good Protoss players you can name, they just never won as many titles. Your last remark about an open buffet for P players makes no sense. There are no more pro players coming into BW, there is simply no incentive, we are watching pro bw die because the player pool will never sustain itself in the long run. Afreeca streaming is the only thing keeping the game alive. New players will never have the practice routine old pros had at the team houses, not to mention all the support from other people teaching them. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
No offense, but it seems to me like you don't know what you're talking about. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
For example in TvP, after the concept of pushing out with a 2-1 army became standard, Flash found an optimization for the rapid destruction of protoss bases by putting exactly three siege tanks within the range of each nexus. This minimized the tank investment per expansion, it allowed for simultaneous destruction of several nexuses, and it made it very likely that protoss would lose 2-3 bases at once while terran's bases were somewhat safe. Every top terran player has been using this method since Flash proved its viability. Up until then even Flash was struggling with the process of destroying protoss bases after pushing out. The example of the quick mech transition in TvZ (also by Flash) is well-known, and as I explained it would make the matchup look almost broken if Larva hadn't found the perfect counter to it. I can even give an example of how it was Flash who optimized PvT from the protoss perspective. When he did his random run, he introduced the method of continuously storming scv lines. In and of itself this wasn't groundbreaking, but his idea had an important twist: he didn't intend to kill many scvs, instead he just wanted to keep their numbers low. That way terran would have a harder time building a strong 200/200 army from 3 bases. It would take longer and allow protoss to fight smaller skirmishes while rapidly taking bases. HT and shuttles were the key units in this strategy. The idea was improved upon a few times until it became standard. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 29 2023 19:42 Magic Powers wrote: I can even give an example of how it was Flash who optimized PvT from the protoss perspective. When he did his random run, he introduced the method of continuously storming scv lines. In and of itself this wasn't groundbreaking, but his idea had an important twist: he didn't intend to kill many scvs, instead he just wanted to keep their numbers low. That way terran would have a harder time building a strong 200/200 army from 3 bases. It would take longer and allow protoss to fight smaller skirmishes while rapidly taking bases. HT and shuttles were the key units in this strategy. The idea was improved upon a few times until it became standard. I know you want to be poetic but isn't this going too far? You're basically saying Flash invented storm drop lol. And what random run btw? The ASL season 10? | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
On May 29 2023 20:10 TMNT wrote: I know you want to be poetic but isn't this going too far? You're basically saying Flash invented storm drop lol. And what random run btw? The ASL season 10? I was talking about a very specific optimization that Flash brought to PvT, not just storm drop. Minimizing the scv count for the price of shuttles filled with expensive HTs was certainly not a commonly observed strategy before he started doing it, because it was considered too expensive for too little return. Since then it has become quite standard. Flash switched to random late April 2020. Indeed his run was in ASL 10, it ended after he lost 2-4 against Soma, who ended up as second after Queen. Flash placed third.  AfreecaTV StarCraft League Remastered/10 | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
I mean, look. He played a PvT where he was ahead and storm dropped multiple times. Do you seriously think other pros would look at that and think "Oh, hey, this is new. We should do storm drops more than one time. This is such an optimization". Apparently no Protosses have ever storm dropped more than once per game before. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
On May 29 2023 21:12 TMNT wrote: Then it's simply not true lol. Protoss players have been doing that for years and have also certainly been doing that in PvZ long ago. It's just a situational play. You're making up history here. We can have a vote on this I'm sure no one agrees with you. I mean, look. He played a PvT where he was ahead and storm dropped multiple times. Do you seriously think other pros would look at that and think "Oh, hey, this is new. We should do storm drops more than one time. This is such an optimization". Apparently no Protosses have ever storm dropped more than once per game before. Ok I must've imagined all the comments praising Flash for demonstrating a fresh take on a PvT tactic. Your argument could also be used to take away from Larva's broodling invention. It was done before, he didn't do it first. Only the context in which he did it was new, and he improved on it, so it's not new. If we go by that logic, then Bisu's fast expand in PvZ also wasn't new, and his dark templar harassment wasn't new, and his corsair builds weren't new. It has all been done before, he just did it better. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 29 2023 21:56 Magic Powers wrote: Ok I must've imagined all the comments praising Flash for demonstrating a fresh take on a PvT tactic. Your argument could also be used to take away from Larva's broodling invention. It was done before, he didn't do it first. Only the context in which he did it was new, and he improved on it, so it's not new. If we go by that logic, then Bisu's fast expand in PvZ also wasn't new, and his dark templar harassment wasn't new, and his corsair builds weren't new. It has all been done before, he just did it better. Bisu's PvZ revolution >>>>>>>> Larva's Broodling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.......................................................... Flash's PvT storm drop One one hand you have fresh strategies that opens up a new way to play the matchup. On ther other hand, Flash played a PvT where he storm dropped more than once ffs. If I can show you a game before ASL10 where Best did the exact same thing that'd be the end of your argument right? Okay I just rewatched that game. So basically Flash hit jackpot with his first two Reaver drop that he was so far ahead against Rush: 160 supplies on 4 bases vs 100 supplies on 2 bases. That allowed him to do whatever he wants later, probably a Scout troll build was also possible lmao. So of course he could throw as many Shuttles and HTs as he wanted later. Also I just counted and he did a total of 3 storm drops in that game but the 3rd one was just moments before Rush gg'ed and you can even argue that Rush already lost the game before the 2nd one. There is really nothing new in that game but I'm astounded that you can read that as Flash innovating PvT. Wow, a guy performed 3 storm drops in a PvT where he was so far ahead he could have won it with Scouts. Such innovations. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
Okay now we're attributing situational play in PvX to Flash. At this point I'm starting to think you have a strong Terran Protoss bias and that's why, like Malongo said, your arguments are basically a fancy way to say "Protoss players are not good enough". | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
Viability comes from innovation + optimization. You can't make something viable just by innovating it, that's not enough. But first you have to innovate it before you can optimize it. This is why the person optimizing something isn't always the same person who innovated it. Flash optimized storm drops in PvT, but he didn't invent them. Anyhow, it was because of him that protoss players got on board with the idea of storming the living hell out of scv lines, when previously that wasn't much of a thing. | ||
|
Puosu
6984 Posts
On May 29 2023 22:56 Magic Powers wrote: No, I think we're simply talking past each other. I'm not only talking about grand innovations, but also optimizations. That's why I've been using that word as well. Viability comes from innovation + optimization. You can't make something viable just by innovating it, that's not enough. But first you have to innovate it before you can optimize it. This is why the person optimizing something isn't always the same person who innovated it. Flash optimized storm drops in PvT, but he didn't invent them. Anyhow, it was because of him that protoss players got on board with the idea of storming the living hell out of scv lines, when previously that wasn't much of a thing. what the fuck | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
| ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
It has evidently resulted in far more of these builds being used by protoss. It was debated in the community how valid this is, and as it turns out the top pros are in agreement that it's very valid and can be done every other game. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 29 2023 23:14 Magic Powers wrote: Why do you keep saying that "nobody has ever done that before"? That's not the point I'm making. I'm saying that he's done it in a different way, far more aggressively. It has evidently resulted in far more of these builds being used by protoss. It was debated in the community how valid this is, and as it turns out the top pros are in agreement that it's very valid and can be done every other game. No. He didn't do it any differently. And what exactly is a "far more aggressive" storm drop anyway? Storm drop is usually a one way trip for the Shuttle and the HTs. How do you get more aggressive than that lol? There is no community validating that Flash has optimized storm drops (over 1 game lol) unless you want to count people circle-jerking off every little thing Flash did. You know what, Snow is also innovating PvT with Scout builds and mass Reaver drop on the ladder. Surely a drop of 12 Reavers is super aggressive than the usual 2 Reavers huh? Pity it doesn't work at pro level because he can't get ahead enough to do so. | ||
|
Magic Powers
Austria3710 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
Nice to read the other parts though. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
(Only for me to point out later that the number of P T Z players in OSL and MSL qualifiers were always 33% each but Protoss just got eliminated more in qualifiers) If so, you certainly are too Terran-biased to the point that you tend to fabricate truths to cope with Tesagi argument. | ||
|
Nirli
Bulgaria358 Posts
Second rule of Brood War club: see 1 above. A dead and inferior game like SC2 is getting tens of K dollars of tournaments, while we, the BW plebs, are wasting precious KBs of the Internet on these discussions. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
On May 29 2023 23:44 Nirli wrote: First rule of Brood War club: TMNT is never wrong. Second rule of Brood War club: see 1 above. A dead and inferior game like SC2 is getting tens of K dollars of tournaments, while we, the BW plebs, are wasting precious KBs of the Internet on these discussions. Koreans are pouring tens of K into BW on a daily basis. I personally also donate too. And the SC2 foreign "plebs" are also having these exact same kinds of discussion every day. What's your point, troll? | ||
|
Nirli
Bulgaria358 Posts
On May 29 2023 23:55 TMNT wrote: Koreans are pouring tens of K into BW on a daily basis. I personally also donate too. And the SC2 foreign "plebs" are also having these exact same kinds of discussion every day. What's your point, troll? Just sharing my opinion on the matter, turtle. Won't participate in the current and the other discussion, as I'm a biased Flash fanboy. | ||
|
TMNT
2530 Posts
Peace out. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
If we stay stuck on current maps with X minerals/gas, Y choke width, Z rush distance BW will go stale. It's good ASL forces new maps - even if they're too much - otherwise we'd still be stuck on FS and CB like how the foreigner scene was forever stuck on Tau Cross and Longinus simply because they had produced a few memorable games. Just like life BW needs ups and downs for all races.BW would be more boring if it was actually T = Z = P, we wouldn't have threads like this. Finally: Flash is the undisputed goat even in his absence and helped popularize the storm drop on scvs meta. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On May 30 2023 00:01 Nirli wrote: Just sharing my opinion on the matter, turtle. Won't participate in the current and the other discussion, as I'm a biased Flash fanboy. BTW the money that is flowing in BW is so much more than the money flowing in SC2. It's not even a comparison. It's like comparing NBA to WNBA | ||
|
Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On May 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote: The protoss meta provably stagnated in the early 2000's. If you think it didn't, you weren't paying attention to the changes that came with Bisu and Stork. Around that time terran players started to complain that carriers were completely broken, and Stork only helped that perception. Bisu single-handedly saved PvZ. Without him, there would be no question about balance, it would be clear to everyone that PvZ is unplayable. No offense, but it seems to me like you don't know what you're talking about. The one that seems completely off is you buddy. ¨People like Stork and Bisu making improvements don't imply others were doing the same thing over and over lol. You clearly have zero idea of how P bw was played pre 2006, Reach and Nal_ra were literally throwing the kitchen sink over Zergs and Terran in terms of different BOs trying to keep up with ridiculous maps. Bisu is great at PvZ but your basically implying nobody could win before and everyone could win after him which is simply nonsense. Same goes with Stork's 4G+2S build, it was great until Terrans realized they needed to push before Carriers and even then, there were very few other protoss playing that build. Go watch Reach's UZOO, Anytime's SO1 run or Ra's Pringles. | ||
| ||
