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On March 07 2023 01:09 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote:
Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck. "This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing.
I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine.
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On March 07 2023 01:24 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2023 18:49 sas.Sziky wrote:On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote:
Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck. How many times do we say it's a dead game? and we still play this game. speak for yourself. You would kill the foreigner sc with $100 tournaments. Check out the bsl top 8 players they don't just play for fun, and there are others. I'm tired of such comments when someone loses or cant become good in the game and talks like that. of course '' if i........ '' sure... Please don't be one of those delusional players. When the top StarCraft tournament outside of Korea can't garner more views on Twitch than the average cam girl in a bikini, it's probably a dead game. People still play it, but not at any level that you would consider a lively and active game that you can make a career out of. Go on Twitch and hit that Browse button and look at the other games and the type of viewership they get. They crush SC1 and it isn't like SC1 is gaining a bunch new players or something. There are reasons there aren't companies trying to get into SC1. The only reason Afreeca invests in ASL is because the owner is a fan. I'm sorry if this is news to you, but it's true. The game perfectly fits the generally agreed upon definition of a dead game by almost any metric and the community is kept together by a very few passionate gamers whom love the game. If you disagree with that, I don't know what to tell you.
Iam not stupid about the Starcraft, dont teach me thy. The situation was worse 10 years ago. i just suprise why u here. because of people like you who only put negatives in sc=just no need. just if u want to play for fun its ok but then why complain and etc? and become angry when u loss some games?
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Russian Federation376 Posts
On March 07 2023 01:40 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 01:09 iFU.spx wrote:On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote:
Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck. "This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing. I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine.
I am not disagreeing with you. With all the respect I just think you misread the whole message (not my, but bsl message) and started to act as a protective father, throwing advices on how to live the right way, which can be read as "kid, stop doing useless thing, grow up". But we are not discussing young man's livelihood here. It's about the future of competitive BW among old guys and ZZZero is giving the opportunity to proceed further.
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last BSL 17 tournament from donations and then silence? Or BSL 16 = the last one?
best of luck, ZZZero.. you're a legend anyway.. looks like we all broke af.. nonetheless..
BW for life 
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On March 07 2023 02:29 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 01:40 G5 wrote:On March 07 2023 01:09 iFU.spx wrote:On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote:
Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck. "This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing. I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine. I am not disagreeing with you. With all the respect I just think you misread the whole message (not my, but bsl message) and started to act as a protective father, throwing advices on how to live the right way, which can be read as "kid, stop doing useless thing, grow up". But we are not discussing young man's livelihood here. It's about the future of competitive BW among old guys and ZZZero is giving the opportunity to proceed further.
Fair enough. Correct me if I'm wrong here though:
He said he has money for the prize pool but he needs $2,500/month to live and he is seemingly making like half of that.
I mean, he has the prize money for BSL, which means it'll keep going on either way. However, if he can't make $2,500/month, he can't focus on it full-time and will have to get a job. That'll also mean that BSL just won't happen as frequently. So, aren't we discussing whether the community can support him doing this full-time or whether it's going to be him doing it part-time?
I commend ZZZero for quitting his job and pursuing SC:BW full-time. I would have never recommended it and I messaged him privately when he announced it with my thoughts, but either way, I respect the fucking hell out of it. It's brave AF and I wish more people went after their dreams. You'll never regret it no matter how it turns out. However, I'll quote Phil Ivey whom said, "If you try something for a year and don't make money at it, it's time to move on". It's been about a year for ZZZero and I know he's trying to make this last push and I don't mean to be the old-Dad "get a job" guy, but I am sadly going to be that guy. It's one thing when you're a single dude but when you got a family, it's different. Go after your dreams, but when others rely on you, do so with a plan one way or another. It's his life though and he can do what he's going to do. I just don't think there's enough of a community or enough money in SC1 to be sustainable for someone to live off of for the long-term.
The only way to make a living in SC1 (in my opinion) is for you, yourself, to become the commodity. There are only two foreign SC1 players that have done this successfully and still play this game, Artosis and Tasteless. People tune in for them, not the game. If you can do that, you'll be successful and can set yourself up for sustainability. Artosis and Tasteless could do the Day[9] thing or what iNcontroL was starting to do, and become a variety streamer and make it work because of their personal brand that people love and follow. That's what I call job security and sustainability and I would recommend gearing towards that if you want to not have a normal job and focus on streaming / gaming / content creation 24/7.
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theres no degrees of death, dead is dead
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God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers?
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ActiBlizz killed both SCs, what could you expect from such a wretched company? No need to seek who's right or wrong, who was there or not when needed. Thanks ZZZero for all support, you did your best for foreign community and wishing you best of luck! We're proud of you!
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Leonix, please, do not spread false news. You can just make donation (if you haven't yet) or just let's concentrate on making good things happen! The title of the thread can be something like "donations request!!!".
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Russian Federation376 Posts
On March 07 2023 03:22 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 02:29 iFU.spx wrote:On March 07 2023 01:40 G5 wrote:On March 07 2023 01:09 iFU.spx wrote:On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote:
Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck. "This is a dead game...", - said an old man during his occasional starcraft gameplay, clicking 400 apm, feeling joy and fun by competing with others. A delusional man who thinks that what brings him and thousands of others joy and fun can be a dead thing. I'm one of those few people whom still play this game out of love for the game. I stream, compete in tournaments, cast, and have coached CPL players for many seasons now. I do my part for this community and I love this game. However, I'm not delusional about it and I certainly wont pretend the state of SC1 is different than it is to try and prop it up. Especially when we're discussing a young man's livelihood. I simply won't sugar-coat the state of SC1 and recommend to anyone that they quit their job to focus on SC:BW. The fact that anyone would try to convince this man the game isn't dead, it's in great shape, and imply that he should focus on SC1 full-time either means you're delusional about it or it means you care more about your SC1 entertainment (or opportunity to win some $) more than this man and his family. I'm just saying it as I see it (I could be wrong but I clearly don't think I am). You all can disagree if you want, that's perfectly fine. I am not disagreeing with you. With all the respect I just think you misread the whole message (not my, but bsl message) and started to act as a protective father, throwing advices on how to live the right way, which can be read as "kid, stop doing useless thing, grow up". But we are not discussing young man's livelihood here. It's about the future of competitive BW among old guys and ZZZero is giving the opportunity to proceed further. Fair enough. Correct me if I'm wrong here though: He said he has money for the prize pool but he needs $2,500/month to live and he is seemingly making like half of that. I mean, he has the prize money for BSL, which means it'll keep going on either way. However, if he can't make $2,500/month, he can't focus on it full-time and will have to get a job. That'll also mean that BSL just won't happen as frequently. So, aren't we discussing whether the community can support him doing this full-time or whether it's going to be him doing it part-time? I commend ZZZero for quitting his job and pursuing SC:BW full-time. I would have never recommended it and I messaged him privately when he announced it with my thoughts, but either way, I respect the fucking hell out of it. It's brave AF and I wish more people went after their dreams. You'll never regret it no matter how it turns out. However, I'll quote Phil Ivey whom said, "If you try something for a year and don't make money at it, it's time to move on". It's been about a year for ZZZero and I know he's trying to make this last push and I don't mean to be the old-Dad "get a job" guy, but I am sadly going to be that guy. It's one thing when you're a single dude but when you got a family, it's different. Go after your dreams, but when others rely on you, do so with a plan one way or another. It's his life though and he can do what he's going to do. I just don't think there's enough of a community or enough money in SC1 to be sustainable for someone to live off of for the long-term. The only way to make a living in SC1 (in my opinion) is for you, yourself, to become the commodity. There are only two foreign SC1 players that have done this successfully and still play this game, Artosis and Tasteless. People tune in for them, not the game. If you can do that, you'll be successful and can set yourself up for sustainability. Artosis and Tasteless could do the Day[9] thing or what iNcontroL was starting to do, and become a variety streamer and make it work because of their personal brand that people love and follow. That's what I call job security and sustainability and I would recommend gearing towards that if you want to not have a normal job and focus on streaming / gaming / content creation 24/7.
You are correct in literal form about full-time vs part-time. By "literal form" I mean that that is the point of view of an organizer. From the community point of view it is about of "will we proceed in growing bw?". Other things such as family first are set in stone in every men's head, therefore no need to worry about it. It's how i see it.
"I just don't think there's enough of a community or enough money in SC1", - I strongly disagree, because (1) community is not an absolute number, (2) BSL is uniting/gathering community, that leads to its growth. (3) Money depends on (2)
As for Phil Ivey quote... based on his carreer he is only succesful at one thing - poker, or projects related to poker, starting from young age. So this quote may be the reason why it is the only one thing. And this guy is a prodigy so this quote can mean the opposite of what it means to you. It also can be a reason of his school drop at young age. Who knows, but I don't want to rely on those prodigy's thoughts.
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2 BSLs a year is not bad, still better than 1 WCG per year... imo
and theres a bunch of shit going on at an amateur level, so calling bw dead game is bs, prize pools are not huge, but theres action at all levels... if a person dreams of making a living of playing BW in the foreign scene today, then that person is just as delusional as he was back in the kespa days.
the scene is in a much better place now compared to the Fish/iccup days... people that were playing sc2 in those days can't possible know that. so im thankful of the state of the game today compared to 2011-2015. People like spx, sziky, eon, terror, dandy, tech, bonyth, dewalt, im pretty sure would agree on this.
Olipatrick is running tournaments
Zety is running Showmatchs / CWs
YuSc is running Showmatchs / tours
ZZZero is King
Artosis is doing pretty well
Afreeca is running tournaments
Daily pro leagues
CPL
iRk LANs
BWCL has like 4 divs
the list goes on and on....
@spx just to clarify phil ivey is very succesfull in gambling/bussiness in general, not just poker, he is a poker god tho;
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On March 06 2023 14:01 superjoppe wrote:
Get a steady job and support your family.
Do what you can on the site. If it requires a full time job, instead of you working 8h on it, can 4 passionate people do it with 2h daily? If we remove the show matches and only include the real tournaments, can 4 passionate people do it with 1h daily?
I managed the YouTube portion of BSL for about a year and it alone took quite a bit of time daily—minimal video editing, thumbnail design, copy, ad placements (tried to keep them out of the game play), posting, promotion, analysis, adjustments.
There are a ton of moving parts, even for just a small portion of this effort, so I don't think it's as easy you might be thinking.
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On March 07 2023 01:24 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2023 18:49 sas.Sziky wrote:On March 06 2023 09:17 G5 wrote:
Well, that's unfortunate to hear.
I like ZZZero, so, I say this with as much respect as I can. If I were him and had his passion for foreign BW: I'd get a job, support my family, and then run tournaments on the side, as much as I can. The simple fact is that foreign BW unfortunately isn't a sustainable career.
This is a dead game kept together by very few passionate gamers whom simply love this game. If you offered $100 tournaments, top players would play it because they love this game. No one is truly playing this game trying to make a living unless their absolutely delusional (and I hope there is no one seriously trying to do this, for their sake).
I wish him the best and I'm sure BSL will go on in one way or another because this guys passion. Best of luck. How many times do we say it's a dead game? and we still play this game. speak for yourself. You would kill the foreigner sc with $100 tournaments. Check out the bsl top 8 players they don't just play for fun, and there are others. I'm tired of such comments when someone loses or cant become good in the game and talks like that. of course '' if i........ '' sure... Please don't be one of those delusional players. When the top StarCraft tournament outside of Korea can't garner more views on Twitch than the average cam girl in a bikini, it's probably a dead game. People still play it, but not at any level that you would consider a lively and active game that you can make a career out of. Go on Twitch and hit that Browse button and look at the other games and the type of viewership they get. They crush SC1 and it isn't like SC1 is gaining a bunch new players or something. There are reasons there aren't companies trying to get into SC1. The only reason Afreeca invests in ASL is because the owner is a fan. I'm sorry if this is news to you, but it's true. The game perfectly fits the generally agreed upon definition of a dead game by almost any metric and the community is kept together by a very few passionate gamers whom love the game. If you disagree with that, I don't know what to tell you.
Honestly I find this particular aspect of the StarCraft community extremely frustrating. People seem to think we're still living in 2007, that you can throw up a stream of yourself playing ladder with the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel production values (no cam, barely any viewer interaction, etc.) and you'll garner a bunch of views for your skill at playing the game, and if you don't? Well, the game is dead and it's unwatchable and there's no chance it'll ever attract a new base of viewers again.
This is not how content creation works in 2023. These "bikini streamers" you mention know this very well, but apparently the BW community has never stopped to think about it. If we want the game to find a wider audience, we need to, as a community, be generating more diverse content, finding ways to engage new viewers, branching out to other platforms, interacting with content creators from other communities. We can't simply post the latest VODs with commentary and expect that to really find a foothold.
If you look at the kinds of content being produced for other games, even for games of a similar era like Super Smash Bros: Melee, it's so much better at this. Even mildly popular content creators on these games are producing content across multiple platforms (streams on Twitch/Youtube, longer form video for YouTube, short-form video for YouTube Shorts and TikTok) which as far as I can see, the BW community has approximately 0 people doing. There are people producing discussions of the competitive history of the games, people discussing the weird mechanics that are exploited in competitive play (AsumSaus has a ton of really cool videos in this area and it is honestly a crime that no one has ever done anything similar for BW).
Meanwhile when I go to Youtube, on my account where I have watched plenty of BW videos on along with tons of other esports content, and search "BSL", here's what I see:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/k3jViGW.png)
I have to scroll all the way down past the YouTube shorts, 8 videos in (not even including the shorts) before I find BSL's latest VOD. My account is even subscribed to BSL's channel, that's how bad the SEO on these videos is.
We can sit here and blame the game, or say that it's just not attractive to new players or viewers or companies, but honestly I think the community is just stuck in its ways and refuses to do the bare minimum to fit into the content creation meta of 2023. We're sitting here trying to optimize by running more events, or have bigger prize pools, or whatever else, while refusing to step back and think about the simple things that could be done to build an audience.
The good news is, since nobody is doing this, the stakes are incredibly low to get started here. Afreeca's StarCraft University demonstrated that there was pent-up demand, at least in Korea, for content outside of the norm of "commentary over competitive matches of the highest skilled players", I would be shocked if there was not plenty of opportunity to do the same outside of Korea. But to get there, people need to actually look at what people are doing in these other more successful content spaces, instead of just doing what they've always done.
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Russian Federation376 Posts
On March 07 2023 08:00 XenOsky wrote:
@spx just to clarify phil ivey is very succesfull in gambling/bussiness in general, not just poker, he is a poker god tho;
Do not wanna dive deeper into this, but you probably read only titles and didnt follow the rest. I havent found any successful business story of this guy. Only tries: iveyleague failed after 3 years (not one), fantasy sports failed, NuVeda LLC, virtue poker called a scam. If you know at least one successful send pm plz
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This seems to just be Leonix's opinion, it's a clickbaity thread tbh
As for BSL, personally I am watching less due to the round robin format, there are no stakes and it seems like endless games with noone getting eliminated so it's kind of a chore to watch. I appreciate that Zero is trying out new things to make the streams work better but this season didn't work for me, previous ones were much better so I hope the next one has some changes and he works out how to keep people interested.
Another thing is that the money in BW is in the korean and chinese scene, so it's best to try to integrate with those communities as much as possible if you want to make a living out of BSL.
As for the game being "dead", lol it could in fact be a good time for BW to grow actually, due to SC2 funding issues and possibly SC2 pros moving to BW.
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We need BSL cam girl bikini streams, problem solved for all parties
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On March 07 2023 12:21 castleeMg wrote:
We need BSL cam girl bikini streams, problem solved for all parties
There is some truth to this.... 😂
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I see BSL videos in position 3 and throughout the rest of the results en masse.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/li0c2fU.png)
The SEO is okay (the descriptions should be more unique), but YouTube is less about SEO and more about engagement—specifically the rate of engagement to views.
It would be amazing if 30% or 50% of the 600–1200 people who watch the YouTube videos regularly would like them and maybe comment. That would make BSL vods come up more often in feeds and searches, and the channel would grow in viewership.
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You have done many things, which are a huge and amazing success, which a few years ago no one would have expected to achieve on foreigners scene. GL HF GG
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EPT
