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TMNT
3147 Posts
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: ... This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3 Be constructive people! best post on this thread so far | ||
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5792 Posts
It's a bad take at best. His stats are way off, to the point of being slander. Here's some actual stats: https://www.pensjometr.pl/en/salaries-in-country https://wynagrodzenia.pl/gus The average gross salary in Poland is about 6-7k PLN, not 5k. And that's average, not "upper class average". That would be closer to 20k or more, depending how you define upper class. For ZZZero's age bracket, we're looking at 8-9.5k PLN median gross salary. If he worked in IT, he could be making 10-15k, if I'm not mistaken. His earnings from BSL are meant to be an alternative to his previous income, not let him and his family stay afloat. I also don't think comparing Patreon to co-owning a company makes much sense. You're subscribing to a service. Buying a membership at a gym doesn't make you a co-owner. Let's be serious. | ||
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TMNT
3147 Posts
On March 13 2023 21:57 maybenexttime wrote: It's a bad take at best. His stats are way off, to the point of being slander. Here's some actual stats: https://www.pensjometr.pl/en/salaries-in-country https://wynagrodzenia.pl/gus The average gross salary in Poland is about 6-7k PLN, not 5k. And that's average, not "upper class average". That would be closer to 20k or more, depending how you define upper class. For ZZZero's age bracket, we're looking at 8-9.5k PLN median gross salary. If he worked in IT, he could be making 10-15k, if I'm not mistaken. His earnings from BSL are meant to be an alternative to his previous income, not let him and his family stay afloat. I also don't think comparing Patreon to co-owning a company makes much sense. You're subscribing to a service. Buying a membership at a gym doesn't make you a co-owner. Let's be serious. There are several points on his post. You're only talking about one point. The numbers could be off but he already said it was only an example. So it's 10k instead of 5k PLN. Does it matter much? The bigger point is you get the overall idea: there is a difference when the community donates to you as a thank you for your effort (part time tournament organizer) vs the community effectively pays you to do a full time job (still a tournament organizer). | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5792 Posts
On March 13 2023 22:15 TMNT wrote: There are several points on his post. You're only talking about one point. The numbers could be off but he already said it was only an example. So it's 10k instead of 5k PLN. Does it matter much? The bigger point is you get the overall idea: there is a difference when the community donates to you as a thank you for your effort (part time tournament organizer) vs the community effectively pays you to do a full time job (still a tournament organizer). Of course it matters. AGge's post is painting ZZZero in a very negative light. He's essentially saying that ZZZero is trying to get stupidly rich by Polish standards while other community figures are doing similar work for free. | ||
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jchassoul
Costa Rica72 Posts
The quality of the product is not different from your standard community driven league, witch still kind of is. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5792 Posts
On March 13 2023 22:57 jchassoul wrote: He is not claiming that, he is just calling the facts, +nobody gets stupidly rich with $2500 month. The quality of the product is not different from your standard community driven league, witch still kind of is. The value of money is relative. AGge's claiming that ZZZero is trying to earn double the average upper class salary in Poland. That is stupidly rich. He's just horribly uninformed about the economic situation in Poland. | ||
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jchassoul
Costa Rica72 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6867 Posts
On March 13 2023 23:27 maybenexttime wrote: The value of money is relative. AGge's claiming that ZZZero is trying to earn double the average upper class salary in Poland. That is stupidly rich. He's just horribly uninformed about the economic situation in Poland. I dont think that was Agge point. It is well known Poland doesnt have strong economy either. Zzzero has a wife and daughter to feed so it is pretty obvious he is not getting rich from this. Agge made some really good points in his post. BW scene outside Korea/ China is super small. The viewers are not popular enough to get income from youtube or twitch. Each season ZzZero set a goal of 10k $ to make the next BSL. And then a Patreon with a goal of 2500$ to keep doing admin work full time. Unless u get a fan from Arabia or Quatar the model of the actual BSL is going to crash. | ||
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iRk-AGge
Sweden400 Posts
On March 13 2023 20:22 sas.Sziky wrote: there is no community here, yes iam cry, but why couldn't it have been supported a little so that we could participate in 1-2 competitions?(I don't care anymore) what Dewalt vs Bonyth ? BSL8: Bony,Gory,TT1,Dandy. BSL9: Bonyth,TT,Gory,Terror. BSL10:Bony,Dewalt,Eon,Oya, BSL11:Bony,Terror,Oya,Avi. BSL12:Terror,Bonyth,TT, Sziky. BSL13:already Chinese players. why talking some shit?  I expected more from you. Sziky my friend, I have the outmost respect for you as a person and player. I see your point. But it also kind of proves my point. The current system in BSL playoffs is flawless. It's a long period of time, but also in the end determines the best overall player, Bonyth (and Dewalt). with a Ro8 or Ro16 traditional single/double bracket there is room for players like Avi and OyA, who doesnt play more than one or two evenings a week during season. While in this format u have to play everyone in the top8 wich requires preparation and alot of games. But I might be wrong, I am not at all on the same level as anyone in Pro, Gosu or Hasu league. It's just my observation and my opinion based on what I see and how i interpret the statistics based on the top 8 players availability and activity. Having an opinion is not talking shit, it's just just an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. My opinion could also be that if we exclude chinese players from the tournament we might as well donate the amount of money on the patreon page straight to you, dewalt and bonyth so you can go compete in China. Since statistically with this format your three has the upperhand vs all others in the foreign scene. That would mean 800€/month for each of you. Now that is not realistic ofcourse since we wouldnt get any entertainment value from that. Basically because china is closed for the rest of the world. Wich brings me to the next point. On March 13 2023 23:27 maybenexttime wrote: The value of money is relative. AGge's claiming that ZZZero is trying to earn double the average upper class salary in Poland. That is stupidly rich. He's just horribly uninformed about the economic situation in Poland. I dont claim that, thats how you interpret my post. On the contrary I think BSL is worth every penny. But are we paying for BSL as a product? Because that's what we want. But for every penny invested in the product, you also expect the product to evolve. I dont see that development from my point of view. I still think the production was better when Nyoken and Rapid was casting every week, and that was BSL8. And thats because I dont ahve the knowledge of SC, BO's and other stuff, but it was more entertaining back then. There was way more passion behind BSL,an eagerness to become better, the admin session on BSL server was alive, now it's all quiet. Last post was a month ago. It feels like it's all stressful, ZZZero needs money for his bills and food to support his family. And he deserves every penny as a person, friend, organizer, Just like everyone else that is dedicating their time to keep the community alive. But the product of BSL should be the main focus here, what is the plan for development? What new functions are we working on? What new graphics will be used? It's still the same intro, music, weird overlays, green screen chromakey setups with alot of flaws and casters going out of frame or half of them disappearing or ghosts. So for an investment of 24 000€ / year what are we investing in? | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1537 Posts
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead. There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo. First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch. Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final. Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage? As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero). Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland. I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?" Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week. But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023. This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3 Be constructive people! HOT TAKES DETECTED! haha I've seen Tasteless twitch stream and it has ALL of his sponsors in my face (I get it but to say that's great production value I really question that...) Of course they have much bigger notoriety from other games too so good for them. I loved watching their ASL coverage when it was live Afreeca really dropped the ball there for the viewer.. But I also like Nyoken and Scan or eOn doing it for essentially free, the day of. While I LOVE the Chinese players in BSL we certainly don't NEED them... Maybe in terms of some1 to take on Bonyth I may give you that part of it... But I would bet Chinese viewers monetary support for BSL is very little if any. Twitch is banned in China so even expanding on that market may be hard using that platform (this is something to look into from a business point of view). Yes, it is the dream. Get paid to do what you love! (or close enough to it) I'm thankful to people who do similar things for free and also thankful to those who support such projects monetarily. The message is simple and doesn't strike me as begging in any way kek... I think by the faulty logic w/e he's making now he can actually even survive making less if he moves to a super cheap country somewhere (not Poland). But I don't think he's looking for that. You say it's worth every penny and then you argue against that? But a development plan could be cool to see too... Thank you for your support regardless! ^_._^ | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary334 Posts
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bochs
119 Posts
On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote: I just signed up as a patreon because I want BSL to stay alive. It's necessary for foreign BW to stay alive. Eventho SC should be considered a dead game in EU/NA/SA. If companies arent willing to invest, and if the prizepools arent big enough for players to be able to make a living from it, then IMO it's dead. There have been many topics in this thread that are just plain stupid imo. First of all, Artosis has made a brand out of himself. People dont care what he does on stream as long as he streams and rages. I love watching him and tasteless commentating SC, not because their knowledge is the best, but because they are professionals and entertaining. They make kick ass production and their streams are clean and they know exactly what to do, and it comes from alot of experience. Even if Nyoken and the others are great casters and they have great knowledge, it's still not on the same level when it comes to procution wich is why people without any knowledge rather watch Artosis and Tasteless. It's just that much greater to watch. Second, chinese to be or not to be in BSL. Since there are so much money in the chinese and korean scene we cant really compare our community to theirs. As someone above claimed. They dont need us, but we need them. We have 250 players in BSL, that just shows how small our community is if our biggest tournament/league cant get more participants than that. Then as someone else also claimed above. Chines community would love to have our players joining their tournaments and leagues IF we can play or TR24 low. If not, then we're not welcome, plain and simple. Nothing to whine about, if you wanna play in their leagues, go to China. If you cant afford it, start a patreon and beg for money. If it wasnt for them it would be Dewalt vs Bonyth bo9 every BSL final. Third, I have waited a long time to become a patreon, simply because I dont like this concept. When great people dedicate their time to host tournaments, leagues and other events for free then I gladly ship in with whatever I can afford to show my appreciation. But when my donation is to pay someones wage (his/her way for making a living) then I'm not really a supporter anymore, then my payment should be regarded as an owner in the company. I also should demand transperancy. What do I get from paying this wage? As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero). Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland. I really love ZZZero, he is a great person, true hero and so dedicated to the SC community. But I think this went from being a hobby where u get donations for the work u put in, to becoming a full time job where people pay you to do the job, and the payment becomes your livelihood wich puts food on the table for your family. And it went from one thing to another way to fast. A person wich is paid 1500€ a month should have to beg for more money to be able to put food on the table. He should negotiate for more money to be able to do even greater things with BSL, just like any employee would when u want a payment raise. I wonder what my boss would say if i went in and said: I need more money to able to live! Response: "lol?" Now I've been against this whole thing because IMO, and in my heart it's not fair to the others in the community. LML in BSL who takes care of Chobo, Hasu, Gosu league. Baal of BWCL All the admins of CPL who every season come up with new ideas and functions to keep it interesting and fun. Also Qikz who singlehandledly ran STPL wich great content, production, and functions for 3 days a week. But for the sake of the community I will start donating on Patreon. This payment doesnt create greater content or make BSL more advanced. alot of work is still manually done with "pen and paper". But it will hopefully keep BSL alive 2023. This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation. And it's all written with love. <3 Be constructive people! +1. Well said. Truth can be harsh, but you are brave to speak truth. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5792 Posts
On March 14 2023 00:04 iRk-AGge wrote: I dont claim that, thats how you interpret my post. On the contrary I think BSL is worth every penny. But are we paying for BSL as a product? Because that's what we want. But for every penny invested in the product, you also expect the product to evolve. I dont see that development from my point of view. I still think the production was better when Nyoken and Rapid was casting every week, and that was BSL8. And thats because I dont ahve the knowledge of SC, BO's and other stuff, but it was more entertaining back then. There was way more passion behind BSL,an eagerness to become better, the admin session on BSL server was alive, now it's all quiet. Last post was a month ago. It feels like it's all stressful, ZZZero needs money for his bills and food to support his family. And he deserves every penny as a person, friend, organizer, Just like everyone else that is dedicating their time to keep the community alive. But the product of BSL should be the main focus here, what is the plan for development? What new functions are we working on? What new graphics will be used? It's still the same intro, music, weird overlays, green screen chromakey setups with alot of flaws and casters going out of frame or half of them disappearing or ghosts. So for an investment of 24 000€ / year what are we investing in? You're not? Here's what you said: On March 13 2023 19:59 iRk-AGge wrote:As an example (ONLY AN EXAMPLE) A full time job in sweden is 40h/week. For that i earn 2800€/month. Average wage in Sweden is 3500€. Average wage in upper class in Poland according to polish statistics is 5275PLN, that's around 1000€. So the community now pays the double amount of the average upper clas wage in Poland to ZZZero, wich means we should demand (this is Swedish standards) 40h of work/week from our employee (wich is ZZZero). Now I know there is alot of work for the production of each cast in BSL. And also gathering players, setup times and so on. But this isnt anything extraordinary. People have done this for free for 25 years even ZZZero. This is the first time the community actually pays a person a full time wage for hosting content for the community. This also means you should expect transperancy. What do you do for 160h/month for the wage the community pays, wich in polish standards according to the amount is the double amount of upper class standards in Poland. Your argument is based on a false premise. You're saying that ZZZero is asking for an extraordinary compensation for a product that is not extraordinary by any measure. I'm pointing out that the compensation he's asking for is not extraordinary in any way. And, please, don't tell me that earning "the double amount of the average upper class wage" in a given country is not getting rich... It suggests that he's aiming to be a top 5% earner or something when, in fact, he's aiming for a median income for his age bracket. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1537 Posts
On March 14 2023 00:55 bochs wrote: +1. Well said. Truth can be harsh, but you are brave to speak truth. He literally ends with "This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation." IDK how you got Truth out of that... or when posting on tl.net became bravery in your mind... I'll give you 3 Truths: 1. Life is not fair 2. BSL is cool 3. Back to 1 & 2 | ||
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bochs
119 Posts
On March 14 2023 01:08 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 14 2023 00:55 bochs wrote: He literally ends with "This is just my opinion and feeling about the whole situation." IDK how you got Truth out of that... or when posting on tl.net became bravery in your mind... I'll give you 3 Truths: 1. Life is not fair 2. BSL is cool 3. Back to 1 & 2 You are not getting agge's point. If EU/NA/SA's SC viewership was large enough, just ads + viewer donations could easily support Zzzero, even platform salary, etc, way beyond 2X upper class income. That's how SK/China's model works. What's missing in foreign scene? Community/Viewership is too small. That's the root cause of all pain. Can it be fixed easily? No. So either top players join SK/Chinese community by physically moving there and rest of the community disbanded, or no BSL at all, or organizers need to lower expectations. In this environment (small community with limited viewership, as a tournament organizer), even making average Poland salary would be a challenge. It's a harsh reality unfortunately but truth needs to be spoken. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1537 Posts
On March 14 2023 01:25 bochs wrote: You are not getting agge's point. If EU/NA/SA's SC viewership was large enough, just ads + viewer donations could easily support Zzzero, even platform salary, etc, way beyond 2X upper class income. That's how SK/China's model works. What's missing in foreign scene? Community/Viewership is too small. That's the root cause of all pain. Can it be fixed easily? No. So either top players join SK/Chinese community by physically moving there and rest of the community disbanded, or no BSL at all, or organizers need to lower expectations. In this environment, even making average Poland salary would be a challenge. It's a harsh reality unfortunately but truth needs to be spoken. If you can't support it that's ok. Nobody is forcing you to. But it is also ok to try to maximize your gain from your job (this goes for everybody). Times are always tough somewhere nobody would dispute that I don't think it's relevant to the discussion. ^_._^ | ||
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uztghfjhfgr
1 Post
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bochs
119 Posts
On March 14 2023 01:47 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: If you can't support it that's ok. Nobody is forcing you to. But it is also ok to try to maximize your gain from your job (this goes for everybody). Times are always tough somewhere nobody would dispute that I don't think it's relevant to the discussion. ^_._^ Clarification: by "environment" I meant the foreign SC community, not the current economic environment. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1600 Posts
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