i made micro 1 player map (it's vs PC controlled scripted situations), which needs to be tested. It's fully playable and i welcome any hints to change some parts, ballance tips and/or tips for new trials to be added into this map.
You can see changelog and download last version of this map here:
Thanks for the map, I just tested and enjoyed it. Overall it was way too easy for me, hence I would increase the difficulty of most levels.
Terran levels were mostly too basic / obvious. Some suggestions:
- rather than 1 marine vs zealot do 3 marine vs 2-3 zealots and add a setup depot - barrack - depot (in vertical) - valkirie vs muta / scourge would be nice for valkirie micro - marine medic attacking up the ramp vs lurker would be nice (2 lurker vs 8 marine 2 medic or sth like this) - goliath / tank vs sunkens / lurkers -> remove lurkers and add more units on the wave, mb some muta ling or so, also way more realistic - for tank vs tank & turrets give scan not dropship -> its much harder to do with scan as you have to measure the distance by heart rather than constant vision, also with limited scans and timer - more "big attack" levels with more spells and less time to setup, add vessle with EMP / matrix etc. - vulture vs zealot -> make vulture die on 1 hit, mb also make vs zergling (vs zealot it is super easy)
For zerg:
- add more cannons in hydra vs canon (+1 cannon at least) - mb some swarm levels, these are always nice - +1 zealot in hydra vs zealot for sure - more SCVs need to be killed with muta or make "kill whole base" incl turrets, some marines, vessel with irradiate (for splitting) etc. Killing SCVs is very easy - cloning of queens would be nice, but would be better if more time pressure or smaller distance to tanks, so you have to clone queens on keyboard (as now distance is big so you can clone by shift)
For protoss:
- reaver vs goon - more goons I guess? - goon vs zealot - no need for battery and make goons die on 1 hit? - shuttle vs tank super easy - just take all dropship and drop, should be more tricky - photo cannon vs probe is nice - would be great for similar for zerg, also use more tricky mineral lines and less space to move drone through mineral - goon vs tank / marine / vult is really nice - goon vs bunker
I will try to go thru every response and answer any questions and comment hints.
So:
Sziky: Sadly map engine (i mean limited amount - 256 - of usable locations during map creation) do not allow me to do much more trials. Some trials do not need much of them, but some of them do. Only solution would be to make separate map for each race but i think it's better this way - all races on one map...?
Discord: aP-Evilbringer#2969 (i am not here on daily basis, so be patient please )
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KogeT: I made this map for humans, not for you (joking :D ) MAYBE there can be solution for "too easy" map in creating another switch, where you can choose difficulty...? It will make my life of map creator extremely hard, but it's not bad idea i think...? Another issue on this is testing - me, as not so good player, can see some levels almost impossible if i make them harder, but for you they will be still easy. But i will think about that.
Your ideas on new/change tasks are good - will go thru them as well. Only undoable tasks are with lurkers... Sadly - pc is not able to keep lurkers burrowed. Immediatelly when you leave range of lurkers, they unburrow. It's the same with HOLD POSITION issue. I can setup hold position in map editor, but they will not attack at all, even on melee range (tried to make 1 hold position zealot behind minerals and you have 2-3 lings to kill im without loosing ling, but when zealot had not hold position, he was running all over the place, and when he had hold, he was just watching, how he get killed - dumb AI).
Rest of ideas can be used via difficulty change, as i said earlier. I would like to keep this map playable even for lower ranked players. Well... it will take some time now, because it's not only about difficulty changer, but about rewrite all tasks in game one by one, but i think it can improve this map, so thank you for idea
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Optimate: You are 100% welcome, but as i said earlier - adding more rounds is very problematic due limited usable locations in map editor. 256 is sacred number here in staredit / BW.
KogeT: It's little bit more complicated. I can use them, but then i must use same location for this trial too. And there are not so many location usable for different tasks (i am using for some different zerg trials same location if i am not mistaken). Sadly - it is not only about locations, but about triggers too - again - just 256 of them. Triggers are conditions, when something should happen. In very early versions of the map, there was much easier to restart round, choose race etc... But i needed to reduce triggers count and loc count to make map even possible...
Or i can move location somewhere else during another round ofc, but i must move it to some location again - so its 1:1 - not worth at all - it would just enlarge amount of triggers, but will not make locations count lower - it will make this count higher - paradox.
Bad thing is, i already few times reduced location/triggers count by reworking rounds, because i was out of them in about half of trials before... 256 is really not so big number, sadly. Old game and Blizzard didnt made any change during remaster into this.
edit: Currently working on Normal/Hard switch. It will take some time to make task hard enough for you :D
im added u on discrod i think make separately Zerg, Terran, Protoss Micro map? so there will be no problem maybe '' 256''? and i hope can u add more wave level(here are some ideas, and i can test for sure ).
Sziky: Thanks alot. Discord accepted. Now working on difficulty enhancement (harder version of the current trials - there will be switch normal/hard). I think it will be maybe last huge change in current map and then i will make different maps for each race. It will save locations and triggers from race switcher (it need surprisingly alot locations and triggers to be functional) for trials itself. But it is future plan. Now i concern on this map to be as good as possible.
Btw. I still can add some trials here. Maybe 3-5 for each race should be in range of limits of the BW. It depends on how complicated these trials would be.
New version of map ready for download. Changelog and download can be found in link in my first post. Let me know about any suggestions, tips or bugs please. Please - keep in mind, that Hard version is in very early stage of progress, so some trials can be too easy or impossible. This is why i need testing if they can be considered as HARD, or if they need some changes.
Jumperer: Thanks for testing it Just watching your stream - Hard version of Protoss is not yet implemented, that's why it didnt started - it's in changelog I think i will make some message in game that T and P is not in Hard ver yet. So it wasnt bug at all. Now continuing to see how you did
Edit: When you tried map second time and tried zerg, youa ccidentally switched to HARD version, that's why it was so hard :D And good point was, that i should write message about ling in corner to stack mutas.
Edit 2: And i am not sure, if you have last version of map - this bug with round 4 restarting bug was fixed in newest version (changelog)
Optimate: Yes. Working on new rounds. Soon will be released next version with some new Protoss hard trials.
Edit: As far as i am using same locations and almost same triggers (there is paradox - almost all hard trials combined cost me only 1 trigger more than i had before hard switch) i can add hard version, or even some extreme in future etc... or some extreme easy. Well - triggers will be very messy then, but it will not be impossible. Adding whole new location for trial, whole new triggers etc cost me the most sources.
Can you post here or private message me your discord? I want to show you my own singleplayer micro map I made. You are encouraged to take some ideas from it.
Btw. To everyone, who is interested in, if you want help me with ballancing trials, please, play it on stream and send me links to the videos of it with your commentary if possible. Especially with hard versions of trials - i am not good enough to make them in some cases, so need better players to test them and tell me, if they are possible to finish or need reballance. THANK YOU! Sadly replays are not working (they are bugged because of UMS replays almost always are )
Hi guys... Have little issue... Thinking about one trial - Zealots vs zealots... But ballance is extreme thing here...
6 vs 6 - extreme easy - you can survive easily with 5 zealots alive 5 vs 6 - i am not able to win at all 6 vs 5 + dragoon - extreme easy... same as in 6 vs 6 6 vs 6 + dragoon - impossible :D
How to bakllance it? I am out of ideas (it is for hard version btw).
On October 03 2021 02:54 Evilbringer wrote: Hi guys... Have little issue... Thinking about one trial - Zealots vs zealots... But ballance is extreme thing here...
6 vs 6 - extreme easy - you can survive easily with 5 zealots alive 5 vs 6 - i am not able to win at all 6 vs 5 + dragoon - extreme easy... same as in 6 vs 6 6 vs 6 + dragoon - impossible :D
How to bakllance it? I am out of ideas (it is for hard version btw).
Puosu: Thanks for ideas, but i already had these :/
Sadly cannot change upgrades just for one trial (map tool wont allow me to - if i add upgrade in this trial, every other trial will get upgrade too, which will ruin the other trials)
And legs on the other side is already in, but it is just for psycholigical purpouse - it make no difference at all - when same amount of slow zealots vs speedlots, there is just 50/50 chance to win for each side. I tested it already...
I think it is not an interseting micro as you can always abuse the ai but draging half of their units away, and it is not a real ingame scenario, which I like this map for.
On October 03 2021 17:23 kogeT wrote: I think it is not an interseting micro as you can always abuse the ai but draging half of their units away, and it is not a real ingame scenario, which I like this map for.
I think drag units out of rest of army should not be possible in this map. I made script (set of triggers) which make enemy units retarget to nearest target if their previous target is going out of their attack range...
If you experienced other behavior in any trial, let me know please.
Hello guys. I am back with some update. You can download new (1.1.1) verison of the map.Please see changelog to findout, what is new or changed.
Let me know if these changes are welcome or no and if possible, if you can play map on stream, send here link to video - replays are not usable in this case - they get bugged, so if you can help me in this way, it will be very appreciated! I need to know if all hard trials can be done and if they are hard enough.Do not forget, that only first Terran hard trial is done, whole hard Zerg is done and only first 3 trials for P are done.
Last round is not good - queens micro with cloning was great, just lower the distance / add more tank, more queen and timer. It could even be like - 8 queens vs 8 tanks (and turrets) and you have like 10 seconds (or less, idk) Swarm ling is not interesting really and swarm stays after you lose and repeat the round.
Most difficult is 1 muta vs 2 scourge, possible but omg. Problem here is 1 muta vs 1 scourge you kinda abuse the ai, but vs 2 scourge it is much different...
Rest levels I've done in few repeats, so they are fine.
For hydra vs cannon level mb add timer too. (some idea as vs bunker then)
Protoss:
I won 6 zealot vs 6 zealot + goon but only because dragon bugs so hard and doesnt shoot - I think stick to 6 v 6 (with speed) and you cannot lose any mb.
The map bugged for me after winning level 3 and I couldnt start another level via top menu too. Then I restarted and I cannot select level 4 from top menu.
At first, thank for testing again! At second - it wasnt bug with 4th trial - it's not finished yet - as i wrote post above yours, there is only 1 hard T and 3 hard P. I wanted to make some message ingame to tell player about this, but when i started to implement this, i realized, it would take much more time to make it working, than i want to invest into (much more). So i let it this way.
About 6v6 zealots... maybe more...? Like 10 vs 10, to make life of player harder to control more units? I will try...
I was thinking same way about last hard Z trial - exactly the same. Just wanted to hear another opinion. I will rework this one. Thanks!
On October 08 2021 21:25 yenta wrote: @evilbringer What are the current levels? Are there any levels to practice reaver micro as P?
Hello yenta!
yes, there is Reaver micro level - it is first trial for Protoss. And this trial have even Hard version already implemented. I have a plan to add some more of them. Dont know if into current map, or i will make another one (making changes in so huge amount of triggers is very difficult). Currently have an idea about map in range of armies. This map, which you can download here is about smaller amount of units and use them well.
And if you want to see what current levels are, just download map and try it yourself - best testing is from yourself Do not forget to look at changelog, because there is switch between normal and hard mode in map. Normal mode is completed in 100%, but hard mode is in developement - some trials have not Hard version yet.
Yes, i tried - your map is very simple and well working. I think some ideas of matchups here are great, only bad thing about that is, i get this map too late to add most of these into my map (reworking already existing areas/locations/triggers is really, really hard). But i think some of them i can use. It needs testing of my map to say: Hey man, this trial is... nothing good at all! Replace it with another one. If this happens, i can use some from your map, if you agree.
Progress on my map is still going on. You can visit changelog and see what changed from last update. Today i have a plan to release new version (or tommorow). With full hard version of Protoss. Wait for it
Btw. I keep changelog updated. So you can see here, if i changed some trials, which have been implemented in previous versions too to test them again.
Your map is really really good. Just eventually you might want to add a sequel for some new rounds. You are then allowed to use any ideas from my map as you would like.
I think you should try to take out the blank space on the bottom of your map. Maybe put some minimap art like map made by Evilbringer.
On October 10 2021 22:24 Optimate wrote: Your map is really really good. Just eventually you might want to add a sequel for some new rounds. You are then allowed to use any ideas from my map as you would like.
I think you should try to take out the blank space on the bottom of your map. Maybe put some minimap art like map made by Evilbringer.
Thanks!
And second part is in something like TO DO LIST. For me is more important to finish all trials, which will take alot of time, because whole T hard mode need to be done. Today i checked, how many more locations i can use and i get very bad response from map editor... I have like 2-3 free locations to use. If someone dont know what does it mean - to make map i need to say what and where something should happen. What will happen is determined by triggers. I have like unlimited amount of them (almost). But where is determined by special part of map editor, which is called location. And i have only 256 of them. Imagine, that only difficulty setting, race choose and round choose takes 18 of them. So this is going to be big issue in future and i need to deal with it during T hard making...
And there is option in editor, to shrink (or any different way resize) map, so this space can be deleted, or used on something like you said. Will see.
Now i am dealing with not finished last hard P trial (i made already 5 versions of it and everytime i deleted it as not good enough).
Btw. on zerg hard the level with tank and bunkers - I have won it once by brute force, probably tank ladned bad shots, but to win it another time I can only do it by killing turrets. So it is kind of abusive else impossible.
For muta vs scourge level 5 mutas would be enough, also no time between rounds needed (or like 1s)
Funny enough for the muta vs muta scourge level I was consistently winning but now I cannot win? Like enemy muta is so good at chasing/attack move they always have more DPS lol.
For level 4 you can easily cut the timer by 15s.
For level 8 I would allow losing 1 drone (vs 1 probe / zealot) - it is possible to do it with no losses but it is a grind vs zealot switching target AI..
On October 11 2021 00:31 kogeT wrote: Btw. on zerg hard the level with tank and bunkers - I have won it once by brute force, probably tank ladned bad shots, but to win it another time I can only do it by killing turrets. So it is kind of abusive else impossible.
For muta vs scourge level 5 mutas would be enough, also no time between rounds needed (or like 1s)
Funny enough for the muta vs muta scourge level I was consistently winning but now I cannot win? Like enemy muta is so good at chasing/attack move they always have more DPS lol.
For level 4 you can easily cut the timer by 15s.
For level 8 I would allow losing 1 drone (vs 1 probe / zealot) - it is possible to do it with no losses but it is a grind vs zealot switching target AI..
Thanks for ideas! I will consider all of them before releasing new version.
Btw. kogeT - i wasnt able to finish mutas vs mutas+scourges in hard mode too. Waiting, if someone will be able to and if not, i will make it slightly easier. And yes - i made AI units slightly more inteligent (to not be able to drag them out of combat by just one unit), so maybe it can be this...
On October 11 2021 23:03 Evilbringer wrote: Btw. kogeT - i wasnt able to finish mutas vs mutas+scourges in hard mode too. Waiting, if someone will be able to and if not, i will make it slightly easier. And yes - i made AI units slightly more inteligent (to not be able to drag them out of combat by just one unit), so maybe it can be this...
I've won it 3 / 5 times yesterday for a warm up, its fine.
On October 12 2021 02:30 Evilbringer wrote: New version ready to download and test. Whole Protoss Hard mode is done, so it is ready to try.
Btw - trial 6 in hard mode for Z will be reworked in future - have few ideas what change it for.
Enjoy and please see changelog what is new here in this version to test.
Thanks!
Finished the protoss part. Had to struggle with the guardian level a bit as goons are not exactly as obedient as goliaths. Pleasent experiance overall.
kogeT - Thank you alot! I will watch video later and i believe it will help me. Exactly this can help me improve map the most.
Bonyth: I thought, that trial with 2 goons vs Guardian is impossible, but i see, that everything is impossible only until someone make it So i think, i can keep this trial in map as real challenge.
kogeT - i have been watching video right now. I have seen few things.
1st: Struggling with drones vs Zealot+Probe... Hm. Strange to me. I made this trial myself and i succeed in maybe 50-60%....
2nd: Most difficult trial (from my point of view - 1 mutalisk vs 2 scourges - you made so flawlessly. Great job man!
3rd: Hydras vs Cannons - you are first i have seen who made this one - great job again!
4th: Ling + Lurkers attack to bunkers - this really need to be reworked. Its... not good trial at all.
5th: Last trial - dont know what happened during first try (maybe it was because you killed tanks exactly when countdown hit zero - it was considered as not failed but as not succeeded as well). But you next tries on this trial were failed because you run out of time. There is very short time limit for this trial. Sadly, i cannot move countdown timer into some more visible position on screen, or change it into more visible collor in editor. More players have issues to see timer is running in some trials and then reporting bug about failed attempt and they don't know why. Only thing i can do is write about running timer in trial description, which i did.
@Evilbringer Can you give me some explanation please? First terran mission, it seems like i have bigger range and sight for my tanks than the enemy siege tanks. I just put my tanks to siege mode when I see them, and they cant shoot back. I dont get any damage through the mission. Is it some bug or a starcraft feature I dont know about ?
On October 18 2021 22:35 jovoktom wrote: @Evilbringer Can you give me some explanation please? First terran mission, it seems like i have bigger range and sight for my tanks than the enemy siege tanks. I just put my tanks to siege mode when I see them, and they cant shoot back. I dont get any damage through the mission. Is it some bug or a starcraft feature I dont know about ?
Good perception man! I cannot give you explanation, but i experienced same thing on this map - just didnt said anything to not make this trial too easy for everyone reading this thread Never seen this in real game and do not really know why is that. I always thought, that when tank fire, he shows himself and can be targeted by enemy tanks. It seems, that it's not always a rule.
On October 19 2021 02:44 kogeT wrote: Attacking from top left position tanks see more than from bottom right, welcome to starcraft.
Wow, ty for the information. Does it have effect on range as well?
You know = it is all about one thing = SC:BW is old game. Back in release date in 1998, there was very difficult to make well shaped circle (for range, vision etc). It's the reason, why for example green circle, which shows, which unit you have selected, is not circle, but alot small squares side by side in some circle-like shape. And same thing is there in case of range. Everyone experienced situation, where you have unit with higher range than target, but you simply cannot attack that target without get damaged too (ehm - Dragoons, but in their case it is about poor AI of Goons too). Thats why sometime for example cannons attack in insane range (hello Hydras) and other time you cannot believe, that this cannon is still not shooting. Even large circles (like attack range) are not circle shaped, but more like circle/square/oval shaped.
For those, who are still interested about this map - there are some big news:
1: At first - bad news - I stopped any progress on this current map - every, even smallest change in any trial became too difficult to make. It is because at first i didnt even thought it will be so huge code and so big amount of triggers etc in this map. So i wasn't prepared at the begining and it became very problematic when map became more and more complex according to your tips.
2: Good news now - i start working on very new map (or set of maps), where i will be better prepared to make future changes from begining.
3: I started to make map for Terrans. Yes - every map will be for different race - it will give me much more options to make more trials and more complex ones.
5: You can see, if you will try this demo, that i have a plan to add mode for 2 players - don't know if it will be even possible, but i will try. Still working mainly on solo game, so 2 players mode is not yet implemented at all. But you can try first two trials on both easy and hard mode and you can switch between these 2 trials as you wish.
6: You cannot change difficulty after you choose it - don't know if i will implement this feature in future - don't think it was used anyway in previous versions at all. Better players selected hard mode and never selected normal mode, weaker ones selected normal mode and that was it. But if you think it will be good idea to let player choose difficulty during playing, let me know.
7: Enjoy - and feel free to add some tips for trials here!
@Evilbringer, have you considered using LangUMS or SCUMSLang for triggers? It seems like it could really simplify the development of complex triggers especially if you have a little bit of programming background.
There is pre-release version with just 3 trials (easy and hard mode). Developement is going VERY slowly, because when i try to make more complex trials, i always engage limits of SC:BW
For example - there is big (bigger than you think) difference between commands ATTACK and PATROL when used by map trigger for CPU controlled units. I was playing with these in previous version of micro mastery map and it was reason, why you experienced sometimes quite good micro from CPU controlled units. BUT - some units have no patrol as commands (for example every worker have this disadvantage). It doesn't sounds like big issue, but it really is Because of these limits i must keep remaking some trials again and again and i must keep changing ideas, how trial should work. For example - trial 3 in this prerelease version was reworked more than 15 times and it is not even nearly simmilar to first thoughts how it should look.
Anyway - there is playable version of map and you can try it yourself and feel free to tell me your ideas, thoughts and call for repair bugs etc.
EPT
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(it is for hard version btw).
