Terran wins in spongames, not asl? why? - Page 5

On September 02 2021 22:51 Essbee wrote:
^ I find it hilarious that you think Snow would beat Flash in a bo9 in pvp. Hilarious that my post was "pure bait". It was just one opinion vs another opinion, it's a forum after all, you don't have to agree, you could have quoted me and said you disagree. It doesn't matter if it's baseless, I can't prove it and the only "data" we have is on my side (2-0 vs Snow). Snow is a much lesser player than Flash in every way, I thought Flash reaching the Ro4 as Random was enough for people to realize how much of on a different level he was, but apparently not.

On September 02 2021 22:51 Essbee wrote:
^ I find it hilarious that you think Snow would beat Flash in a bo9 in pvp. Hilarious that my post was "pure bait". It was just one opinion vs another opinion, it's a forum after all, you don't have to agree, you could have quoted me and said you disagree. It doesn't matter if it's baseless, I can't prove it and the only "data" we have is on my side (2-0 vs Snow). Snow is a much lesser player than Flash in every way, I thought Flash reaching the Ro4 as Random was enough for people to realize how much of on a different level he was, but apparently not.

On September 03 2021 01:14 TMNT wrote:

And there's also this fundamental problem with your logic when you bring out Flash "PvP" result against Snow as an example to showcase your "Flash is the best Protoss" theory (you probably assume Snow is the best Protoss before): PvP is a just weird matchup.

Here's Snow PvP record in 2021 on sponbbang: 43.8% (vs Best), 31.3% (vs Mini), 44.4% (vs Stork) and 83.3% (vs Bisu). I was actually surprised myself seeing this.

So, who's the best PvP? Maybe it's Mini with 68.8% (vs Snow), 71% (vs Best), 50% (vs Bisu), but then he's only 40% (vs Stork).

Funnily, Stork is the only one holding a positive record against everyone: 55.6% (vs Snow), 50% (vs Best), 60% (vs Mini) and 57.1% (vs Bisu). But we all know Stork is not really relevant these days.

From these records, it's not even possible to tell who's the best PvP, let alone the best Protoss.
So it's actually shocking for you to use Flash 2-0 RvP record against Snow as an evidence of something.

On September 02 2021 23:51 TMNT wrote:

Do I need to remind you for the n times that the only piece of "data" you have is just... wrong (the 2-0 vs Snow is RvP, not PvP). And it's insignificant anyway.

If you want that kind of "data", here's one for you: in his showmatch Flash tied 1-1 with Best after randoming into P twice. The game where he won, was after Best did a forward Gate opening (as in PvZ). Given that Best's PvP is abysmal, by your logic I guess that's also where Flash's Protoss is?

Flash on another level compared to the rest was already proven by his domination as Terran. No one's arguing that. But citing his RO4 achievement as Random to prove that he's the best at Protoss (or Zerg, for that matter) is just wrong. Let's look at his wins in that tournament:
- Won 1 "PvT" against Rush. This game I give you because Rush didn't suffer a BO disadvantage.
- Won 5 games against Free, Rush, Soma, Larva as Terran (surprise!)
- Won 2 "ZvZ" against Larva and Soma both on Plasma, the map where it's almost unplayable for Zerg if his opponent randoms into Zerg as well.
- Won 2 "PvP" against Snow, one game off a hidden base and one game off a BO advantage because he's Random.
- Won 1 "ZvT" against Rush, with a 4 Pool (and Rush went proxy Rax lol)

So, excluding the advantages of being Random, he had one win playing a standard game as offrace in that tournament. The few others are just cheese/gimmicks, of course it may show how smart/cunning Flash is, but it has nothing to do with him being the best playing other races.

Mind, this post is never about undermining Flash's ability. It just demonstrates how flawed your way of reasoning is.

On September 03 2021 12:39 Just_a_Moth wrote:
i think Snow would destroy Flash in a TvT Bo9. Like 5-0, maybe 5-1.

On September 03 2021 14:44 Magic Powers wrote:
I think I'd beat Flash 8-1 in a 9 game series. But of course I'm just speculating since none of us have any data to support our opinion. It could perhaps be closer to 9-0 if Flash plays so bad that I can't give him a win. I actually expect that result, but I don't have any data to support my opinion.

On September 04 2021 00:34 Essbee wrote:


Funny how you change your tune once you finally realized I wasn't the one asking for ridiculous proofs. You could have just said you hated me from the get go, would have saved you some time. Beating around the bush won't bring you far. Teamliquid is the only place filled with people who can't take opinions, the only thing they can take is data. There is absolutely no way to have a conversation here, outside of "tesagi lol, look at that percentage".

On September 04 2021 02:00 Just_a_Moth wrote:

I don't believe in Tesagi. That was sarcasm.

But I do think you are spouting a bunch of ridiculous claims, which as you have said are just your opinion, and that's fine. However, when you attempt to provide evidence for your claims you are usually wrong (as pointed out by TMNT). It wouldn't really be annoying except you just keep repeating yourself, but no can really argue with because it's just your opinion. So, it kind of feels like your trying to prove yourself right, or at least convince others that you are right, through sheer word and post volume.

On September 04 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:


Faced a lot of adversity for my opinionated post, that's why I posted what I posted. I can say I apologize for that. This forum isn't super active anyway so I don't think having a few pages of a few people going back and forth is that much of a big deal. I don't think it's that much of a problem to simply disagree. According to that poll, 3 people do agree with me, but 13 disagree. That's fine. But that's the thing I am not "right" per say, like I've said, no one can prove anything right now, so that's why I won't back down from my claim since both sides are unprovable, that's why I've been repeating myself. I have my views and my reasons to believe Flash is just as good as he is and Snow isn't. I've watched both's streams and I speak enough korean to see that Snow's mindset isn't the same as Flash's tryhard mentality, quite the opposite actually. And I say that as someone who likes Snow quite a bit but I'm realistic in knowing where his strengths lie. I like TMNT's posts anyway, they are respectful enough and he points out his argument well but like I've repeated to him, we both have no proofs for any of our claim, so this is a moot point, it's all opinions so he should stop expecting so much from my stance.