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On August 31 2021 23:49 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. But it seems unlikely that Light would keep playing terran if he believes that his protoss is better, given that there's a monetary incentive for doing as well as possible in leagues etc. Are there any statistics for Light's protoss matches?
But you know, Light has switched to protoss (even tho it ended in disaster against ForGG). Back then Light truly belived, that maps were unplayable for terran. Maybe some koreans can clarify the matter, but as far as I know, Light would have kept playing protoss but his fans wanted him to change back to terran.
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On September 01 2021 02:02 Steeles21600 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2021 23:25 Magic Powers wrote:On August 31 2021 23:12 outscar wrote:
So no one is going to talk about FlaSh's random is on 2nd spot? He is not human. It's an inconvenient fact, a curveball if you will. Imbalance-theorists tend to ignore these curveballs. Just the fact alone that Flash has a 75% terran winrate and no one comes even close. That's not being talked about, if anything imbalance-theorists like to remove his games to see if that better supports their views. Whatever can be done to support a personal bias. When your looking at data, you remove the outliers. Flash is just one person, his stategies should be considered but his personal performance is reasonable to be removed. Additonally, this post is bringing notice to terrans abnormally HIGH winrate, as contrasted to the ASL. If anything, this is more a question or terrans strength rather than its weakness.
You should never remove statistical outliers unless they violate the odds of occuring. Flash's winrate is perfectly within the realistic range and therefore cannot be selectively removed. Doing so would create a selection bias.
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On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait.
Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait".
Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stomp Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control.
But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense.
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On September 01 2021 02:47 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 02:02 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 23:25 Magic Powers wrote:On August 31 2021 23:12 outscar wrote:
So no one is going to talk about FlaSh's random is on 2nd spot? He is not human. It's an inconvenient fact, a curveball if you will. Imbalance-theorists tend to ignore these curveballs. Just the fact alone that Flash has a 75% terran winrate and no one comes even close. That's not being talked about, if anything imbalance-theorists like to remove his games to see if that better supports their views. Whatever can be done to support a personal bias. When your looking at data, you remove the outliers. Flash is just one person, his stategies should be considered but his personal performance is reasonable to be removed. Additonally, this post is bringing notice to terrans abnormally HIGH winrate, as contrasted to the ASL. If anything, this is more a question or terrans strength rather than its weakness. You should never remove statistical outliers unless they violate the odds of occuring. Flash's winrate is perfectly within the realistic range and therefore cannot be selectively removed. Doing so would create a selection bias.
Flash is a massive outlier, but even if you remove him from the spongames terran still has a much higher winrate. So the purpouse of this topic still stands, as terran wins much more in spongames than ASL.
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On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense.
Yeah i cant help but notice most protoss players compared to terran and zergs are kinda...bad.
I dont know if protoss is weak so the best players dont choose it, or if protoss is bad because bad players choose protoss. Protoss does seem like the race with the least developed meta, so i would lean toward the latter. Protoss was horrible in the early days of the game, especially against zerg until new maps and metas were discovered. Alot of terrans popularity comes from slayers boxer and the like. My gut feeling is that protoss could do alot better against terran but they are probably just gonna suck vs zerg forever. But of course that could be changed.
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On September 01 2021 03:04 Steeles21600 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. Yeah i cant help but notice most protoss players compared to terran and zergs are kinda...bad. I dont know if protoss is weak so the best players dont choose it, or if protoss is bad because bad players choose protoss. Protoss does seem like the race with the least developed meta, so i would lean toward the latter. Protoss was horrible in the early days of the game, especially against zerg until new maps and metas were discovered. Alot of terrans popularity comes from slayers boxer and the like. My gut feeling is that protoss could do alot better against terran but they are probably just gonna suck vs zerg forever. But of course that could be changed.
To me, Jangbi is the most talented protoss ever and if he had figured his stage fright problems earlier, he would have a chance to have been a bonjwa and these balance talks wouldn't exist. No other protoss player was able to be as good as him in all 3 matchups at the same time.
Also, someone needs to explain to me why Bisu is only great vs zerg. And that begs the question: if Bisu is that good vs zerg and other protoss players aren't, then why is the balance an issue when Bisu has proven it isn't in that particular matchup?
It's just so easy to disprove any balance whine, none of it make sense and is based on emotion and small sample sizes and always disregard maps, quality of players, metas...
But to answer your post, I think protoss players learn bad habits because they can get away with a lot vs lesser players, but not against top players.
In the end, the answer is simple: git gud.
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On September 01 2021 02:59 Steeles21600 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 02:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 01 2021 02:02 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 23:25 Magic Powers wrote:On August 31 2021 23:12 outscar wrote:
So no one is going to talk about FlaSh's random is on 2nd spot? He is not human. It's an inconvenient fact, a curveball if you will. Imbalance-theorists tend to ignore these curveballs. Just the fact alone that Flash has a 75% terran winrate and no one comes even close. That's not being talked about, if anything imbalance-theorists like to remove his games to see if that better supports their views. Whatever can be done to support a personal bias. When your looking at data, you remove the outliers. Flash is just one person, his stategies should be considered but his personal performance is reasonable to be removed. Additonally, this post is bringing notice to terrans abnormally HIGH winrate, as contrasted to the ASL. If anything, this is more a question or terrans strength rather than its weakness. You should never remove statistical outliers unless they violate the odds of occuring. Flash's winrate is perfectly within the realistic range and therefore cannot be selectively removed. Doing so would create a selection bias. Flash is a massive outlier, but even if you remove him from the spongames terran still has a much higher winrate. So the purpouse of this topic still stands, as terran wins much more in spongames than ASL.
Flash is an outlier, but statistically he's perfectly within the expected range. Other players having reached similar winrates before include Savior, Jaedong and Bisu and perhaps a few more.
Flash is only an outlier compared to the current field, not compared to what is humanly achievable. So the point does, in fact, not stand.
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On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense.
I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here.
Let's see your arguments to support that claim:
- "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao.
- "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.
- "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth
Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro).
But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO.
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On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here. Let's see your arguments to support that claim: - "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao. - "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up. - "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro). But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO.
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
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On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here. Let's see your arguments to support that claim: - "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao. - "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up. - "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro). But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO. So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice. Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want. And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
Lol what are you talking about? Does this whole post contain any information as to why Flash is the best Protoss lol.
Go on, please. Do enlighten us with your facts and data to support that outrageous claim.
Fyi, no one's debating how good or bad Snow is. No need to bring him into the equation. I just debunked your false information that Flash beat Snow in PvP. No, he beat him as RvP.
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On September 01 2021 05:21 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.
And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.
This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail. I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here. Let's see your arguments to support that claim: - "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao. - "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up. - "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro). But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO. So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice. Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want. And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"? Lol what are you talking about? Does this whole post contain any information as to why Flash is the best Protoss lol. Go on, please. Do enlighten us with your facts and data to support that outrageous claim. Fyi, no one's debating how good or bad Snow is. No need to bring him into the equation. I just debunked your false information that Flash beat Snow in PvP. No, he beat him as RvP.
'"his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.'
Throw me a bone here and show me. Show me how you can prove someone is better at reaver control in a quantifiable way. Show me what "facts" and "data" can prove better reaver control. Remember, eyetest doesn't count here, only "data".
You said using my eyes was hilarious. Please show us the way of your people, and if you do I'll gladly try to prove my point or I'll admit defeat if I can't.
At the end of the day, and if you've been following, none of this matters, I can't prove any of my claims and neither do you. I choose to believe that Flash would crush Snow in a Bo9 (PvP) with 6 months of practice and you choose not to believe it. No one can prove this one way or another until they actually do it for real.
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On September 01 2021 05:26 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 05:21 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:
[quote]
I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here. Let's see your arguments to support that claim: - "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao. - "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up. - "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro). But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO. So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice. Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want. And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"? Lol what are you talking about? Does this whole post contain any information as to why Flash is the best Protoss lol. Go on, please. Do enlighten us with your facts and data to support that outrageous claim. Fyi, no one's debating how good or bad Snow is. No need to bring him into the equation. I just debunked your false information that Flash beat Snow in PvP. No, he beat him as RvP. '"his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.' Throw me a bone here and show me. Show me how you can prove someone is better at reaver control in a quantifiable way. Show me what "facts" and "data" can prove better reaver control. Remember, eyetest doesn't count here, only "data". You said using my eyes was hilarious. Please show us the way of your people, and if you do I'll gladly try to prove my point or I'll admit defeat if I can't. At the end of the day, and if you've been following, none of this matters, I can't prove any of my claims and neither do you. I choose to believe that Flash would crush Snow in a Bo9 (PvP) with 6 months of practice and you choose not to believe it. No one can prove this one way or another until they actually do it for real.
"I believe weird off topic thing. You believe other thing. Our positions are equivalent until you cite research papers on the subject."
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On September 01 2021 06:06 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 05:26 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 05:21 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:
[quote]
Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here. Let's see your arguments to support that claim: - "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao. - "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up. - "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro). But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO. So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice. Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want. And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"? Lol what are you talking about? Does this whole post contain any information as to why Flash is the best Protoss lol. Go on, please. Do enlighten us with your facts and data to support that outrageous claim. Fyi, no one's debating how good or bad Snow is. No need to bring him into the equation. I just debunked your false information that Flash beat Snow in PvP. No, he beat him as RvP. '"his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.' Throw me a bone here and show me. Show me how you can prove someone is better at reaver control in a quantifiable way. Show me what "facts" and "data" can prove better reaver control. Remember, eyetest doesn't count here, only "data". You said using my eyes was hilarious. Please show us the way of your people, and if you do I'll gladly try to prove my point or I'll admit defeat if I can't. At the end of the day, and if you've been following, none of this matters, I can't prove any of my claims and neither do you. I choose to believe that Flash would crush Snow in a Bo9 (PvP) with 6 months of practice and you choose not to believe it. No one can prove this one way or another until they actually do it for real. "I believe weird off topic thing. You believe other thing. Our positions are equivalent until you cite research papers on the subject."
You fail at reading comprehension, or you misquoted.
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On September 01 2021 05:26 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 05:21 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:
[quote]
I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here. Let's see your arguments to support that claim: - "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao. - "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up. - "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro). But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO. So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice. Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want. And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"? Lol what are you talking about? Does this whole post contain any information as to why Flash is the best Protoss lol. Go on, please. Do enlighten us with your facts and data to support that outrageous claim. Fyi, no one's debating how good or bad Snow is. No need to bring him into the equation. I just debunked your false information that Flash beat Snow in PvP. No, he beat him as RvP. '"his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.' Throw me a bone here and show me. Show me how you can prove someone is better at reaver control in a quantifiable way. Show me what "facts" and "data" can prove better reaver control. Remember, eyetest doesn't count here, only "data". You said using my eyes was hilarious. Please show us the way of your people, and if you do I'll gladly try to prove my point or I'll admit defeat if I can't. At the end of the day, and if you've been following, none of this matters, I can't prove any of my claims and neither do you. I choose to believe that Flash would crush Snow in a Bo9 (PvP) with 6 months of practice and you choose not to believe it. No one can prove this one way or another until they actually do it for real.
Hahahaha. Your arguments are so pathetic.
Remember, your original claim was "Flash is the best Protoss" (1), not "his reaver control is on par with Snow" (2). And even if you could prove (2) in a quantifiable way (which you can't anyway), it doesn't make (1) become true.
Flash is the best BW player in history. That much can be proven by data and facts (titles, win rate). Same way Jaedong and Bisu are considered the best in their respective race, at least during the Kespa era.
And if data and facts didn't exist, then the community would kind of form a consensus about it, by "watching they play" I guess. That means many people (fans and players) watching regularly over a long time, throughout many games. That's how we have JD Muta, Bisu Corsair, Snow Reaver, etc. So no, you watching a handful of games where Flash randomed into Protoss and then claiming he's the best Protoss, does not count.
You are just clutching at straws and trying to deflect the conversation into something else here.
- First you claim Flash/Light are the best Protosses, then you backed down to admit they are not the best at PvZ (lol), while still maintaining they're the best at PvT (without any evidence other than "your eyes").
- Then you tried to say Flast beat Snow in PvP, which I already proved is a false statement. Then you backed down to say Flash would beat Snow after 6 months of practice (again, without any evidence).
Your posts are ridden with shifting the goal post, backtracking, spreading false information, personal biases, and asspull, it's not even fun debating with. Please dont quote me again (I surely wont quote you).
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Oh, and I forgot to mention the part when someone presented you with the inconvenient fact that Light achieved nothing with his Protoss, you just happened to not pay attention to 
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On September 01 2021 06:19 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 05:26 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 05:21 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:
[quote]
Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait". Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control. But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense. I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here. Let's see your arguments to support that claim: - "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao. - "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up. - "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro). But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO. So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice. Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want. And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"? Lol what are you talking about? Does this whole post contain any information as to why Flash is the best Protoss lol. Go on, please. Do enlighten us with your facts and data to support that outrageous claim. Fyi, no one's debating how good or bad Snow is. No need to bring him into the equation. I just debunked your false information that Flash beat Snow in PvP. No, he beat him as RvP. '"his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.' Throw me a bone here and show me. Show me how you can prove someone is better at reaver control in a quantifiable way. Show me what "facts" and "data" can prove better reaver control. Remember, eyetest doesn't count here, only "data". You said using my eyes was hilarious. Please show us the way of your people, and if you do I'll gladly try to prove my point or I'll admit defeat if I can't. At the end of the day, and if you've been following, none of this matters, I can't prove any of my claims and neither do you. I choose to believe that Flash would crush Snow in a Bo9 (PvP) with 6 months of practice and you choose not to believe it. No one can prove this one way or another until they actually do it for real. Hahahaha. Your arguments are so pathetic. Remember, your original claim was "Flash is the best Protoss" (1), not "his reaver control is on par with Snow" (2). And even if you could prove (2) in a quantifiable way (which you can't anyway), it doesn't make (1) become true. Flash is the best BW player in history. That much can be proven by data and facts (titles, win rate). Same way Jaedong and Bisu are considered the best in their respective race, at least during the Kespa era. And if data and facts didn't exist, then the community would kind of form a consensus about it, by "watching they play" I guess. That means many people (fans and players) watching regularly over a long time, throughout many games. That's how we have JD Muta, Bisu Corsair, Snow Reaver, etc. So no, you watching a handful of games where Flash randomed into Protoss and then claiming he's the best Protoss, does not count. You are just clutching at straws and trying to deflect the conversation into something else here. - First you claim Flash/Light are the best Protosses, then you backed down to admit they are not the best at PvZ (lol), while still maintaining they're the best at PvT (without any evidence other than "your eyes"). - Then you tried to say Flast beat Snow in PvP, which I already proved is a false statement. Then you backed down to say Flash would beat Snow after 6 months of practice (again, without any evidence). Your posts are ridden with shifting the goal post, backtracking, spreading false information, personal biases, and asspull, it's not even fun debating with. Please dont quote me again (I surely wont quote you).
I never backed down from my claim that they are the best protosses tho. Proving reaver control is impossible. They would be the best at PvZ if they actually played the race. Rest of your post is unnecessary.
Like that previous poster said, drop it with your expectation of research papers for proving things that are not provable. I thought you got that already. There are things where data just doesn't exist. When I watch Flash or Light offrace and play protoss, they are better than Snow. Their knowledge of the game is just better. There's no way to prove that.
I don't sit there claiming Bonyth is the best PvTer in the world, I claim the best player ever is also the best protoss and I stand by that statement. Light was thrown out there but that was more tongue in cheek than anything, but I still think he'd be a much better protoss than all the current protosses if he played the race. You don't have to agree though. Take a deep breath and relax, not everything has to be so abrasive just because of one person's informed opinion.
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On September 01 2021 06:33 TMNT wrote:Oh, and I forgot to mention the part when someone presented you with the inconvenient fact that Light achieved nothing with his Protoss, you just happened to not pay attention to
What should he have achieved?
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wait I just realized I've been arguing with someone who started watching in 2021 and is yet another one of those tesagi whiners, my bad, I should have spotted the troll right from the get go.
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The best Protoss who doesn't really play Protoss. What a fun concept lol.
Fun fact: I watched Light's Protoss lost to Soulkey's Terran the other day. Based on that single experience of my eyes, he must suck ass at PvT.
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EPT
