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On September 01 2021 07:27 TMNT wrote:
The best Protoss who doesn't really play Protoss. What a fun concept lol.
Fun fact: I watched Light's Protoss lost to Soulkey's Terran the other day. Based on that single experience of my eyes, he must suck ass at PvT.
Maybe I was a little too quick on the gun when it comes to Light then lol. But he did beat Flash's terran a few times and he was playing masterfully, that's where the idea came from, and that's how he improved his TvP as a result.
I can admit that generally I could be wrong about Light but he's talented and a tryhard so I think he'd do well if he played the race. But as for Flash, I'm 100% convinced he'd still be the best player by far.
I don't see what's wrong to call Flash the best protoss even if he doesn't play the race. I think we would consider Mini to be the best protoss right now? That's a big step down in talent level, and that's not a disrespect to Mini who I think is really good.
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Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong"
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On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong"
I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again.
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Artosis was right.
Post quality on TL has really gone down over the years.
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On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong" I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again.
On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
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On September 01 2021 14:31 Just_a_Moth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong" I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again. Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
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Why do you think I was asking this? Stop reading only my posts. He asked me to prove impossible things first, which is why I wanted to see if he could prove it which in turn could help me prove it afterwards. I didn't think that was hard to understand.
I claimed that Flash is as good at reaver control than Snow, there's no way I can prove this, that's the point. It's like scouting prospects in professional sports, there's no "data" that can prove a player's decision-making for example.
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Problem is your opinion is an unpopular one, that you just formed based on your own experience. So you need to prove it.
I can claim my Muta control is as good as JD, and by your logic neither I can prove it nor you can disprove it. Does that make our stances equivalent?
But the main thing still is, there's no need to focus on that point (reaver control) when the main argument is still "Flash is the best Protoss". Even if his Reaver control was as good as Snow, that doesn't make him the best Protoss.
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On September 01 2021 23:00 TMNT wrote:
Problem is your opinion is an unpopular one, that you just formed based on your own experience. So you need to prove it.
I can claim my Muta control is as good as JD, and by your logic neither I can prove it nor you can disprove it. Does that make our stances equivalent?
But the main thing still is, there's no need to focus on that point (reaver control) when the main argument is still "Flash is the best Protoss". Even if his Reaver control was as good as Snow, that doesn't make him the best Protoss.
Being the best protoss is proved by results in the end. Flash barely played protoss so he doesnt have anything to show how he is the best protoss. If he played them alot, he probably would end up being the best protoss, but we didnt see much.
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On September 01 2021 22:37 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 14:31 Just_a_Moth wrote:On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong" I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again. On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
... Why do you think I was asking this? Stop reading only my posts. He asked me to prove impossible things first, which is why I wanted to see if he could prove it which in turn could help me prove it afterwards. I didn't think that was hard to understand. I claimed that Flash is as good at reaver control than Snow, there's no way I can prove this, that's the point. It's like scouting prospects in professional sports, there's no "data" that can prove a player's decision-making for example.
Actually, i know flash played protoss more than just in ASL. I want to find his PvZ matches, because in my opinion PvZ shows a protosses skill more then PvT since its a harder matchup. We all know PvT is pretty imba but if a protoss beats a zerg that says more about their performance.
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On September 01 2021 23:00 TMNT wrote:
Problem is your opinion is an unpopular one, that you just formed based on your own experience. So you need to prove it.
I can claim my Muta control is as good as JD, and by your logic neither I can prove it nor you can disprove it. Does that make our stances equivalent?
But the main thing still is, there's no need to focus on that point (reaver control) when the main argument is still "Flash is the best Protoss". Even if his Reaver control was as good as Snow, that doesn't make him the best Protoss.
I can't prove it, just accept that it's someone's opinion. Not everything has to be irrefutably proven, especially opinions. I think Flash is a better protoss than Snow, that's all. Flash and Snow have similar reaver control but Flash has a much better understanding of the game and of his builds. Flash does things you have to pay real close attention to be able to figure out. He'd be by far the best with any race, no one remaining has the talent he has or the will to be the best and work as hard, that's just how it is. You can disagree and say that he's only good because of "tesagi" and you won't be able to prove this either.
Your muta control could be as good as Jaedong, just stream and we'll see, but what you're asking me to prove is impossible. And all these clowns quoting me saying I wanted you to prove something is just the cherry on the top when you're the one who keeps asking for evidence for an unprovable opinion.
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On September 01 2021 23:35 Steeles21600 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 22:37 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 14:31 Just_a_Moth wrote:On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong" I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again. On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
... Why do you think I was asking this? Stop reading only my posts. He asked me to prove impossible things first, which is why I wanted to see if he could prove it which in turn could help me prove it afterwards. I didn't think that was hard to understand. I claimed that Flash is as good at reaver control than Snow, there's no way I can prove this, that's the point. It's like scouting prospects in professional sports, there's no "data" that can prove a player's decision-making for example. Actually, i know flash played protoss more than just in ASL. I want to find his PvZ matches, because in my opinion PvZ shows a protosses skill more then PvT since its a harder matchup. We all know PvT is pretty imba but if a protoss beats a zerg that says more about their performance.
I think Flash is the best at PvT and PvP but below Bisu and Mini at PvZ, he would need to play more. And no, I don't have a university research paper to back that up, that's just me watching his stream at the time and people are free to disagree with me.
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On September 01 2021 23:41 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 23:35 Steeles21600 wrote:On September 01 2021 22:37 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 14:31 Just_a_Moth wrote:On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong" I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again. On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
... Why do you think I was asking this? Stop reading only my posts. He asked me to prove impossible things first, which is why I wanted to see if he could prove it which in turn could help me prove it afterwards. I didn't think that was hard to understand. I claimed that Flash is as good at reaver control than Snow, there's no way I can prove this, that's the point. It's like scouting prospects in professional sports, there's no "data" that can prove a player's decision-making for example. Actually, i know flash played protoss more than just in ASL. I want to find his PvZ matches, because in my opinion PvZ shows a protosses skill more then PvT since its a harder matchup. We all know PvT is pretty imba but if a protoss beats a zerg that says more about their performance. I think Flash is the best at PvT and PvP but below Bisu and Mini at PvZ, he would need to play more. And no, I don't have a university research paper to back that up, that's just me watching his stream at the time and people are free to disagree with me.
I found some PvZ matches he played on the home of starcraft channel so ill go through that and get a feel. There are only about 3 videos though.
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i have independently confirmed, by gut feeling, that no quantity or quality of posting will fix this thread
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Bisutopia19278 Posts
I think there can be much better speculation as to whether Jangbi or Rain would have been the greatest Protoss of all time. Jangbi's success was cut short by the end of Kespa and Rain's chances as a young player were interrupted by Sc2 (where he had massive success too). Then he cut himself short by not being interested in sticking around in SC1 after his dominating return and ridiculous PvP record.
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On September 01 2021 23:41 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 23:35 Steeles21600 wrote:On September 01 2021 22:37 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 14:31 Just_a_Moth wrote:On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong" I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again. On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
... Why do you think I was asking this? Stop reading only my posts. He asked me to prove impossible things first, which is why I wanted to see if he could prove it which in turn could help me prove it afterwards. I didn't think that was hard to understand. I claimed that Flash is as good at reaver control than Snow, there's no way I can prove this, that's the point. It's like scouting prospects in professional sports, there's no "data" that can prove a player's decision-making for example. Actually, i know flash played protoss more than just in ASL. I want to find his PvZ matches, because in my opinion PvZ shows a protosses skill more then PvT since its a harder matchup. We all know PvT is pretty imba but if a protoss beats a zerg that says more about their performance. I think Flash is the best at PvT and PvP but below Bisu and Mini at PvZ, he would need to play more. And no, I don't have a university research paper to back that up, that's just me watching his stream at the time and people are free to disagree with me.
Watched some of his protoss games and i dont know a whole lot about pvp, but i can see where you are coming from. His actual execution is very good in PvT but its mostly the strategy he uses. He doesnt attack terran army unless its good for him, just spam expands and constantly kills workers. PvZ he tried to bring to long game, but it just doesnt work since zerg can just use dark swarm and force kills on your nexus. So pretty much what i thought, they could do better in PvT but PvZ just kinda sucks.
Although it does bring me to a thought, if you as terran put more effort into stopping storm drops, but did large vulture/tank drops of your own with multiple dropships more often, could that be the way? One of the big things in gathering over time is that killing your opponent economy is pretty integral to the lategame, but that is something terran doesnt really do much in pvt. Maybe the cannon spam would be too effective, but that is still alot of resources they would have to spend on cannons.
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On September 02 2021 06:02 Steeles21600 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 23:41 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 23:35 Steeles21600 wrote:On September 01 2021 22:37 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 14:31 Just_a_Moth wrote:On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong" I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again. On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.
Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.
And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?
... Why do you think I was asking this? Stop reading only my posts. He asked me to prove impossible things first, which is why I wanted to see if he could prove it which in turn could help me prove it afterwards. I didn't think that was hard to understand. I claimed that Flash is as good at reaver control than Snow, there's no way I can prove this, that's the point. It's like scouting prospects in professional sports, there's no "data" that can prove a player's decision-making for example. Actually, i know flash played protoss more than just in ASL. I want to find his PvZ matches, because in my opinion PvZ shows a protosses skill more then PvT since its a harder matchup. We all know PvT is pretty imba but if a protoss beats a zerg that says more about their performance. I think Flash is the best at PvT and PvP but below Bisu and Mini at PvZ, he would need to play more. And no, I don't have a university research paper to back that up, that's just me watching his stream at the time and people are free to disagree with me. Watched some of his protoss games and i dont know a whole lot about pvp, but i can see where you are coming from. His actual execution is very good in PvT but its mostly the strategy he uses. He doesnt attack terran army unless its good for him, just spam expands and constantly kills workers. PvZ he tried to bring to long game, but it just doesnt work since zerg can just use dark swarm and force kills on your nexus. So pretty much what i thought, they could do better in PvT but PvZ just kinda sucks. Although it does bring me to a thought, if you as terran put more effort into stopping storm drops, but did large vulture/tank drops of your own with multiple dropships more often, could that be the way? One of the big things in gathering over time is that killing your opponent economy is pretty integral to the lategame, but that is something terran doesnt really do much in pvt. Maybe the cannon spam would be too effective, but that is still alot of resources they would have to spend on cannons.
Mass drops usually don't work for terran in tvp because protoss usually has more bases and the economic damage isn't as high as a protoss dropping a terran. Also, a terran army usually require a lot of positioning and mine setups, in addition to having your whole army together to bring the entire slow moving firepower in a ball to get as much value per tank as possible. Not without mentioning that having as many dropships would use up a lot of precious supplies that could go into extra tanks. TvP can be boiled down to the tank count. T wants to protect the tanks while P wants to use its extra economy to bring the tank number down.
One thing that has been happening a bit is making more goliaths instead of vultures, especially for semi all-ins where you'll macro up on few bases and rely on goliaths' superior fighting ability to outnumber and push the protoss. Vultures don't fight as well for the supply especially in a mid-gamish scenario where there are more dragoons than zealots.
If terran struggled in tvp, flash would find a way, as he always does. In general, I completely and passionately disagree with the notion that anything in bw is "sagi". There are so many ways to explore solutions to a problem since the game is mechanically impossible to master. I've seen every top player stomp another top player, regardless of the race. Any race can make itself look "sagi" and that's why bw is so fucking sick to watch and why I'll miss flash and his countless innovations.
Take the above with a grain of salt, I'm B as terran, B as toss and C as zerg, so I'm not a pro by any mean, only play a few games per week.
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On September 02 2021 03:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I think there can be much better speculation as to whether Jangbi or Rain would have been the greatest Protoss of all time. Jangbi's success was cut short by the end of Kespa and Rain's chances as a young player were interrupted by Sc2 (where he had massive success too). Then he cut himself short by not being interested in sticking around in SC1 after his dominating return and ridiculous PvP record.
It's so easy to see a potential protoss bonjwa: Bisu's PvZ + Jangbi's PvT.
Bisu, Rain and Jangbi all came close and showed potential. That would have been incredible to watch and we got a taste of it with Jangbi's PvZ reaching a new level at the end.
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On September 01 2021 12:35 ToastedBagel wrote:
Artosis was right.
Post quality on TL has really gone down over the years.
He's also in part to blame
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On September 01 2021 23:31 Steeles21600 wrote:
Being the best protoss is proved by results in the end. Flash barely played protoss so he doesnt have anything to show how he is the best protoss. If he played them alot, he probably would end up being the best protoss, but we didnt see much.
This is correct and basically what I've been trying to explain to Essbee the whole time, but he seems to not be able to differentiate between "is already the best" and "if xyz, would become the best".
On September 01 2021 23:38 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2021 23:00 TMNT wrote:
Problem is your opinion is an unpopular one, that you just formed based on your own experience. So you need to prove it.
I can claim my Muta control is as good as JD, and by your logic neither I can prove it nor you can disprove it. Does that make our stances equivalent?
But the main thing still is, there's no need to focus on that point (reaver control) when the main argument is still "Flash is the best Protoss". Even if his Reaver control was as good as Snow, that doesn't make him the best Protoss. I can't prove it, just accept that it's someone's opinion. Not everything has to be irrefutably proven, especially opinions. I think Flash is a better protoss than Snow, that's all. Flash and Snow have similar reaver control but Flash has a much better understanding of the game and of his builds. Flash does things you have to pay real close attention to be able to figure out. He'd be by far the best with any race, no one remaining has the talent he has or the will to be the best and work as hard, that's just how it is. You can disagree and say that he's only good because of "tesagi" and you won't be able to prove this either. Your muta control could be as good as Jaedong, just stream and we'll see, but what you're asking me to prove is impossible. And all these clowns quoting me saying I wanted you to prove something is just the cherry on the top when you're the one who keeps asking for evidence for an unprovable opinion.
Everyone can have an opinion. It's just... some are correct and some are worthless. You can't hide under the personal opinion shield to protect your poorly formed opinion. Let me give you some examples: my opinion is vaccines are useless because I see around me and no one gets sick; or, global warming is a hoax because I go out everyday and feel like it's not that hot. Feel free to disagree with that.
Now back to the topic. Since you already admit Flash is not the best at PvZ, let's forget about that part.
But just answer these questions as to how can he be considered the best at PvT and PvP:
1. How long/how many games has he played as Protoss? Is it long enough to be considered significant?
2. Of those games how many did he actually pick Protoss, not random into Protoss? (because when he plays random he inherently holds a BO advantage to his opponent)
3. What were his opponents? Are they of the best quality?
4. How many titles, or final/semi final appearances has he achieved as Protoss?
5. What is his win rate vs Light/Rush in PvT? Is it higher than Best/Snow/Bisu PvT win rate? If yes, is it statistically significant?
6. Same for PvP.
I bet the answers to those questions are mostly "no" "not much" "not significant" or "not recorded".
Yep. You need to go through all that to be considered the best. That's how Flash Bisu Jaedong got their reputation as the best of their race. Their records are all there to see. They aren't considered the best because some dude on a forum watch their stream and says so.
And finally, all of these wouldn't be necessary if at the beginning you didn't say this:
On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:
I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses.
See. It's you who disagreed with someone else's opinion first by stating an unpopular, baseless opinion and pretending as if it's a well known fact. It's also you who called people "hilarious" for disagreeing with that.
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^ I find it hilarious that you think Snow would beat Flash in a bo9 in pvp. Hilarious that my post was "pure bait". It was just one opinion vs another opinion, it's a forum after all, you don't have to agree, you could have quoted me and said you disagree. It doesn't matter if it's baseless, I can't prove it and the only "data" we have is on my side (2-0 vs Snow). Snow is a much lesser player than Flash in every way, I thought Flash reaching the Ro4 as Random was enough for people to realize how much of on a different level he was, but apparently not.
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EPT
