Terran wins in spongames, not asl? why?

On August 31 2021 05:39 angry_maia wrote:
Sponbbang matches reflect the current state of the pros while these are all-time ASL stats. If you were to rank players now you'd get a drastically different list: Rain, Bisu, Jaedong, Larva, Effort, Shine are basically either retired or irrelevant. Meanwhile Rush and Light have both improved a TON and could easily win ASLs (Light won KSL).

We also have Sorry and Jyj who are both really strong now.

On August 31 2021 05:36 kogeT wrote:
One reason could be that terran is so difficult to master per map. The more you play a single map as terran, the better you will be. This is due to learning proper build placement (terran suffer most from it), learning different positions where to move your army (terran is least mobile). ASL always promoted "new" maps that were often unorthodox, this made terran even weaker. Also terran is the easier race to be cheesed, making it again vulnerable on new maps. But this is just me theory crafting.

On August 31 2021 06:30 oxKnu wrote:
Terran is without question the strongest race in this game and also generally very robust against a lot of 'new' builds, since the Terran replies to a lot of stuff kind of stay the same.

And naturally people play on the same maps A LOT. Like a lot, every day, many games. So it only makes sense that in the long run Terran players would have the best results since they get to realize their equity on those maps in all match-ups by the time everyone probes the most viable strategies on them.

This is a fundamental game theory concept. In the long run, the strongest competitor will prevail.

On August 31 2021 05:36 kogeT wrote:
One reason could be that terran is so difficult to master per map. The more you play a single map as terran, the better you will be. This is due to learning proper build placement (terran suffer most from it), learning different positions where to move your army (terran is least mobile). ASL always promoted "new" maps that were often unorthodox, this made terran even weaker. Also terran is the easier race to be cheesed, making it again vulnerable on new maps. But this is just me theory crafting.

On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:


I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses.

On August 31 2021 10:27 ExpatRights wrote:
bw is terran favored

On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:


I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses.

On August 31 2021 17:51 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
You can't simply remove Flash from the equation without accepting your data is going to be flawed. Flash is responsible for many other terrans eliminated from the competition. E.g. in some of those ASL wins where Flash won, some other terrans could have won too.

On August 31 2021 19:48 Anc13nt wrote:


that's true but the same can be said for the protoss/zerg players he beat

On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote:

Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea?

On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:


By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light.

On August 31 2021 23:49 Puosu wrote:

But it seems unlikely that Light would keep playing terran if he believes that his protoss is better, given that there's a monetary incentive for doing as well as possible in leagues etc.

Are there any statistics for Light's protoss matches?

On August 31 2021 09:24 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
why dont we take out the strongest players from Z and P and look at how bad their stats are too?

On August 31 2021 18:54 oxKnu wrote:
An interesting thought idea about Flash.

I was thinking what would happen if he was to play either Zerg or Protoss in any of the ASL's he participated in.

I think he could win 3 titles with Zerg but only one with Protoss. Although I could be wrong, he would certainly be more creative with Protoss than any of the current pros I think.

On August 31 2021 23:25 Magic Powers wrote:


It's an inconvenient fact, a curveball if you will. Imbalance-theorists tend to ignore these curveballs.
Just the fact alone that Flash has a 75% terran winrate and no one comes even close. That's not being talked about, if anything imbalance-theorists like to remove his games to see if that better supports their views.
Whatever can be done to support a personal bias.

On August 31 2021 22:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Why is the right side of the image cropped out? Is it too inconvenient for the point?

On September 01 2021 01:16 Essbee wrote:


I didn't say he was better at protoss than terran. But I will admit that they are probably not the best in PvZ, the matchup needs a lot more practice. Mini and Bisu are probably still much better, but their PvT is high-end.

As far as I am concerned, Flash beating Snow in PvP in the ASL was the nail in the coffin when it comes to imbalance talks. Some players are just a lot more talented than others.

On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote:


By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light.

On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote:


Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument.

On August 31 2021 23:49 Puosu wrote:

But it seems unlikely that Light would keep playing terran if he believes that his protoss is better, given that there's a monetary incentive for doing as well as possible in leagues etc.

Are there any statistics for Light's protoss matches?

On September 01 2021 02:10 QOGQOG wrote:

Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait.

On September 01 2021 02:47 Magic Powers wrote:


You should never remove statistical outliers unless they violate the odds of occuring. Flash's winrate is perfectly within the realistic range and therefore cannot be selectively removed. Doing so would create a selection bias.

On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:


Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait".

Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control.

But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense.

On September 01 2021 03:04 Steeles21600 wrote:


Yeah i cant help but notice most protoss players compared to terran and zergs are kinda...bad.

I dont know if protoss is weak so the best players dont choose it, or if protoss is bad because bad players choose protoss. Protoss does seem like the race with the least developed meta, so i would lean toward the latter. Protoss was horrible in the early days of the game, especially against zerg until new maps and metas were discovered. Alot of terrans popularity comes from slayers boxer and the like. My gut feeling is that protoss could do alot better against terran but they are probably just gonna suck vs zerg forever. But of course that could be changed.

On September 01 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:


Lol yeah sure, someone who has played protoss for about 3 months vs someone who has played for over 15 years but it's "pure bait".

Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, you people are hilarious tbh. Give Flash 6 months of practice and he'd stump Snow in a Bo9. His reaver control is already on par with Snow who's considered to be by far the best at reaver control.

But yall can keep crying about balance and look at data instead, I guess that makes more sense.

On September 01 2021 04:52 TMNT wrote:

I'm sorry but given that you haven't provided one iota of fact regarding why Flash or Light is the best Protoss, you are the hilarious one here.

Let's see your arguments to support that claim:
- "by watching them play": yeah, sure, such strong evidence there. I also watch Bonyth play and I think he's the best PvT in the world lmao.
- "his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.
- "Flash beating Snow in PvP": just flat out wrong, as I already debunked this myth

Light played Protoss for a while and achieved nothing. Flash never actually played Protoss. He had a couple of games randoming into Protoss, and looked decent. That's all. Maybe you can make a case for them becoming the best Protosses after x months of practice (not 6, sorry bro).

But to claim they are the absolute best just based on... your eyes. LMAO.

On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:


So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.

Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.

And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?

On September 01 2021 05:21 TMNT wrote:

Lol what are you talking about? Does this whole post contain any information as to why Flash is the best Protoss lol.

Go on, please. Do enlighten us with your facts and data to support that outrageous claim.

Fyi, no one's debating how good or bad Snow is. No need to bring him into the equation. I just debunked your false information that Flash beat Snow in PvP. No, he beat him as RvP.

On September 01 2021 05:26 Essbee wrote:


'"his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.'

Throw me a bone here and show me. Show me how you can prove someone is better at reaver control in a quantifiable way. Show me what "facts" and "data" can prove better reaver control. Remember, eyetest doesn't count here, only "data".

You said using my eyes was hilarious. Please show us the way of your people, and if you do I'll gladly try to prove my point or I'll admit defeat if I can't.


At the end of the day, and if you've been following, none of this matters, I can't prove any of my claims and neither do you. I choose to believe that Flash would crush Snow in a Bo9 (PvP) with 6 months of practice and you choose not to believe it. No one can prove this one way or another until they actually do it for real.

On September 01 2021 06:06 QOGQOG wrote:

"I believe weird off topic thing. You believe other thing. Our positions are equivalent until you cite research papers on the subject."

On September 01 2021 05:26 Essbee wrote:


'"his reaver control is already on par with Snow": again, pure personal claim, no evidence to back up.'

Throw me a bone here and show me. Show me how you can prove someone is better at reaver control in a quantifiable way. Show me what "facts" and "data" can prove better reaver control. Remember, eyetest doesn't count here, only "data".

You said using my eyes was hilarious. Please show us the way of your people, and if you do I'll gladly try to prove my point or I'll admit defeat if I can't.


At the end of the day, and if you've been following, none of this matters, I can't prove any of my claims and neither do you. I choose to believe that Flash would crush Snow in a Bo9 (PvP) with 6 months of practice and you choose not to believe it. No one can prove this one way or another until they actually do it for real.

On September 01 2021 06:19 TMNT wrote:

Hahahaha. Your arguments are so pathetic.

Remember, your original claim was "Flash is the best Protoss" (1), not "his reaver control is on par with Snow" (2). And even if you could prove (2) in a quantifiable way (which you can't anyway), it doesn't make (1) become true.

Flash is the best BW player in history. That much can be proven by data and facts (titles, win rate). Same way Jaedong and Bisu are considered the best in their respective race, at least during the Kespa era.

And if data and facts didn't exist, then the community would kind of form a consensus about it, by "watching they play" I guess. That means many people (fans and players) watching regularly over a long time, throughout many games. That's how we have JD Muta, Bisu Corsair, Snow Reaver, etc. So no, you watching a handful of games where Flash randomed into Protoss and then claiming he's the best Protoss, does not count.

You are just clutching at straws and trying to deflect the conversation into something else here.
- First you claim Flash/Light are the best Protosses, then you backed down to admit they are not the best at PvZ (lol), while still maintaining they're the best at PvT (without any evidence other than "your eyes").
- Then you tried to say Flast beat Snow in PvP, which I already proved is a false statement. Then you backed down to say Flash would beat Snow after 6 months of practice (again, without any evidence).


Your posts are ridden with shifting the goal post, backtracking, spreading false information, personal biases, and asspull, it's not even fun debating with. Please dont quote me again (I surely wont quote you).

On September 01 2021 06:33 TMNT wrote:
Oh, and I forgot to mention the part when someone presented you with the inconvenient fact that Light achieved nothing with his Protoss, you just happened to not pay attention to

On September 01 2021 07:27 TMNT wrote:
The best Protoss who doesn't really play Protoss. What a fun concept lol.

Fun fact: I watched Light's Protoss lost to Soulkey's Terran the other day. Based on that single experience of my eyes, he must suck ass at PvT.

On September 01 2021 10:43 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Feels like Esbee's arguments can all be boiled down to "I am right, prove me wrong"

On September 01 2021 11:54 Essbee wrote:


I never asked anyone to "prove" anything. You need to read again.

On September 01 2021 05:04 Essbee wrote:
So you just proved that you only watch the ASL and foreigners. "Flash never actually played Protoss", yeah he played his first protoss game ever in the ASL and still managed to reach the Ro4. Snow would reach the finals playing terran with no practice.

Again, Snow can't even hit his build timings properly, that's a well known fact among the korean community, you can choose to ignore that if you want.

And why are you not asking me about where's my proof of Snow's reaver control being the best? Why only Flash? And how would you prove that outside of eyetest? Do you even know why Snow has the best reaver control? And if yes, can you prove it? Where's your "evidence"?

On September 01 2021 14:31 Just_a_Moth wrote:


...

On September 01 2021 23:00 TMNT wrote:
Problem is your opinion is an unpopular one, that you just formed based on your own experience. So you need to prove it.

I can claim my Muta control is as good as JD, and by your logic neither I can prove it nor you can disprove it. Does that make our stances equivalent?

But the main thing still is, there's no need to focus on that point (reaver control) when the main argument is still "Flash is the best Protoss". Even if his Reaver control was as good as Snow, that doesn't make him the best Protoss.

On September 01 2021 22:37 Essbee wrote:


Why do you think I was asking this? Stop reading only my posts. He asked me to prove impossible things first, which is why I wanted to see if he could prove it which in turn could help me prove it afterwards. I didn't think that was hard to understand.

I claimed that Flash is as good at reaver control than Snow, there's no way I can prove this, that's the point. It's like scouting prospects in professional sports, there's no "data" that can prove a player's decision-making for example.

On September 01 2021 23:00 TMNT wrote:
Problem is your opinion is an unpopular one, that you just formed based on your own experience. So you need to prove it.

I can claim my Muta control is as good as JD, and by your logic neither I can prove it nor you can disprove it. Does that make our stances equivalent?

But the main thing still is, there's no need to focus on that point (reaver control) when the main argument is still "Flash is the best Protoss". Even if his Reaver control was as good as Snow, that doesn't make him the best Protoss.

On September 01 2021 23:35 Steeles21600 wrote:



Actually, i know flash played protoss more than just in ASL. I want to find his PvZ matches, because in my opinion PvZ shows a protosses skill more then PvT since its a harder matchup. We all know PvT is pretty imba but if a protoss beats a zerg that says more about their performance.

On September 01 2021 23:41 Essbee wrote:


I think Flash is the best at PvT and PvP but below Bisu and Mini at PvZ, he would need to play more. And no, I don't have a university research paper to back that up, that's just me watching his stream at the time and people are free to disagree with me.

On September 01 2021 23:41 Essbee wrote:


I think Flash is the best at PvT and PvP but below Bisu and Mini at PvZ, he would need to play more. And no, I don't have a university research paper to back that up, that's just me watching his stream at the time and people are free to disagree with me.

On September 02 2021 06:02 Steeles21600 wrote:



Watched some of his protoss games and i dont know a whole lot about pvp, but i can see where you are coming from. His actual execution is very good in PvT but its mostly the strategy he uses. He doesnt attack terran army unless its good for him, just spam expands and constantly kills workers. PvZ he tried to bring to long game, but it just doesnt work since zerg can just use dark swarm and force kills on your nexus. So pretty much what i thought, they could do better in PvT but PvZ just kinda sucks.

Although it does bring me to a thought, if you as terran put more effort into stopping storm drops, but did large vulture/tank drops of your own with multiple dropships more often, could that be the way? One of the big things in gathering over time is that killing your opponent economy is pretty integral to the lategame, but that is something terran doesnt really do much in pvt. Maybe the cannon spam would be too effective, but that is still alot of resources they would have to spend on cannons.

On September 02 2021 03:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I think there can be much better speculation as to whether Jangbi or Rain would have been the greatest Protoss of all time. Jangbi's success was cut short by the end of Kespa and Rain's chances as a young player were interrupted by Sc2 (where he had massive success too). Then he cut himself short by not being interested in sticking around in SC1 after his dominating return and ridiculous PvP record.

On September 01 2021 12:35 ToastedBagel wrote:
Artosis was right.

Post quality on TL has really gone down over the years.

On September 01 2021 23:31 Steeles21600 wrote:
Being the best protoss is proved by results in the end. Flash barely played protoss so he doesnt have anything to show how he is the best protoss. If he played them alot, he probably would end up being the best protoss, but we didnt see much.

On September 01 2021 23:38 Essbee wrote:


I can't prove it, just accept that it's someone's opinion. Not everything has to be irrefutably proven, especially opinions. I think Flash is a better protoss than Snow, that's all. Flash and Snow have similar reaver control but Flash has a much better understanding of the game and of his builds. Flash does things you have to pay real close attention to be able to figure out. He'd be by far the best with any race, no one remaining has the talent he has or the will to be the best and work as hard, that's just how it is. You can disagree and say that he's only good because of "tesagi" and you won't be able to prove this either.

Your muta control could be as good as Jaedong, just stream and we'll see, but what you're asking me to prove is impossible. And all these clowns quoting me saying I wanted you to prove something is just the cherry on the top when you're the one who keeps asking for evidence for an unprovable opinion.

On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote:
I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses.

On September 02 2021 22:51 Essbee wrote:
^ I find it hilarious that you think Snow would beat Flash in a bo9 in pvp. Hilarious that my post was "pure bait". It was just one opinion vs another opinion, it's a forum after all, you don't have to agree, you could have quoted me and said you disagree. It doesn't matter if it's baseless, I can't prove it and the only "data" we have is on my side (2-0 vs Snow). Snow is a much lesser player than Flash in every way, I thought Flash reaching the Ro4 as Random was enough for people to realize how much of on a different level he was, but apparently not.

On September 02 2021 22:51 Essbee wrote:
^ I find it hilarious that you think Snow would beat Flash in a bo9 in pvp. Hilarious that my post was "pure bait". It was just one opinion vs another opinion, it's a forum after all, you don't have to agree, you could have quoted me and said you disagree. It doesn't matter if it's baseless, I can't prove it and the only "data" we have is on my side (2-0 vs Snow). Snow is a much lesser player than Flash in every way, I thought Flash reaching the Ro4 as Random was enough for people to realize how much of on a different level he was, but apparently not.

On September 03 2021 01:14 TMNT wrote:

And there's also this fundamental problem with your logic when you bring out Flash "PvP" result against Snow as an example to showcase your "Flash is the best Protoss" theory (you probably assume Snow is the best Protoss before): PvP is a just weird matchup.

Here's Snow PvP record in 2021 on sponbbang: 43.8% (vs Best), 31.3% (vs Mini), 44.4% (vs Stork) and 83.3% (vs Bisu). I was actually surprised myself seeing this.

So, who's the best PvP? Maybe it's Mini with 68.8% (vs Snow), 71% (vs Best), 50% (vs Bisu), but then he's only 40% (vs Stork).

Funnily, Stork is the only one holding a positive record against everyone: 55.6% (vs Snow), 50% (vs Best), 60% (vs Mini) and 57.1% (vs Bisu). But we all know Stork is not really relevant these days.

From these records, it's not even possible to tell who's the best PvP, let alone the best Protoss.
So it's actually shocking for you to use Flash 2-0 RvP record against Snow as an evidence of something.

On September 02 2021 23:51 TMNT wrote:

Do I need to remind you for the n times that the only piece of "data" you have is just... wrong (the 2-0 vs Snow is RvP, not PvP). And it's insignificant anyway.

If you want that kind of "data", here's one for you: in his showmatch Flash tied 1-1 with Best after randoming into P twice. The game where he won, was after Best did a forward Gate opening (as in PvZ). Given that Best's PvP is abysmal, by your logic I guess that's also where Flash's Protoss is?

Flash on another level compared to the rest was already proven by his domination as Terran. No one's arguing that. But citing his RO4 achievement as Random to prove that he's the best at Protoss (or Zerg, for that matter) is just wrong. Let's look at his wins in that tournament:
- Won 1 "PvT" against Rush. This game I give you because Rush didn't suffer a BO disadvantage.
- Won 5 games against Free, Rush, Soma, Larva as Terran (surprise!)
- Won 2 "ZvZ" against Larva and Soma both on Plasma, the map where it's almost unplayable for Zerg if his opponent randoms into Zerg as well.
- Won 2 "PvP" against Snow, one game off a hidden base and one game off a BO advantage because he's Random.
- Won 1 "ZvT" against Rush, with a 4 Pool (and Rush went proxy Rax lol)

So, excluding the advantages of being Random, he had one win playing a standard game as offrace in that tournament. The few others are just cheese/gimmicks, of course it may show how smart/cunning Flash is, but it has nothing to do with him being the best playing other races.

Mind, this post is never about undermining Flash's ability. It just demonstrates how flawed your way of reasoning is.

On September 03 2021 12:39 Just_a_Moth wrote:
i think Snow would destroy Flash in a TvT Bo9. Like 5-0, maybe 5-1.

On September 03 2021 14:44 Magic Powers wrote:
I think I'd beat Flash 8-1 in a 9 game series. But of course I'm just speculating since none of us have any data to support our opinion. It could perhaps be closer to 9-0 if Flash plays so bad that I can't give him a win. I actually expect that result, but I don't have any data to support my opinion.

On September 04 2021 00:34 Essbee wrote:


Funny how you change your tune once you finally realized I wasn't the one asking for ridiculous proofs. You could have just said you hated me from the get go, would have saved you some time. Beating around the bush won't bring you far. Teamliquid is the only place filled with people who can't take opinions, the only thing they can take is data. There is absolutely no way to have a conversation here, outside of "tesagi lol, look at that percentage".

On September 04 2021 02:00 Just_a_Moth wrote:

I don't believe in Tesagi. That was sarcasm.

But I do think you are spouting a bunch of ridiculous claims, which as you have said are just your opinion, and that's fine. However, when you attempt to provide evidence for your claims you are usually wrong (as pointed out by TMNT). It wouldn't really be annoying except you just keep repeating yourself, but no can really argue with because it's just your opinion. So, it kind of feels like your trying to prove yourself right, or at least convince others that you are right, through sheer word and post volume.

On September 04 2021 02:58 Essbee wrote:


Faced a lot of adversity for my opinionated post, that's why I posted what I posted. I can say I apologize for that. This forum isn't super active anyway so I don't think having a few pages of a few people going back and forth is that much of a big deal. I don't think it's that much of a problem to simply disagree. According to that poll, 3 people do agree with me, but 13 disagree. That's fine. But that's the thing I am not "right" per say, like I've said, no one can prove anything right now, so that's why I won't back down from my claim since both sides are unprovable, that's why I've been repeating myself. I have my views and my reasons to believe Flash is just as good as he is and Snow isn't. I've watched both's streams and I speak enough korean to see that Snow's mindset isn't the same as Flash's tryhard mentality, quite the opposite actually. And I say that as someone who likes Snow quite a bit but I'm realistic in knowing where his strengths lie. I like TMNT's posts anyway, they are respectful enough and he points out his argument well but like I've repeated to him, we both have no proofs for any of our claim, so this is a moot point, it's all opinions so he should stop expecting so much from my stance.