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TMNT
2904 Posts
On August 31 2021 09:32 Essbee wrote: I could get behind this theory if Flash and Light weren't also the best protosses. Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? | ||
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oxKnu
1207 Posts
I was thinking what would happen if he was to play either Zerg or Protoss in any of the ASL's he participated in. I think he could win 3 titles with Zerg but only one with Protoss. Although I could be wrong, he would certainly be more creative with Protoss than any of the current pros I think. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 31 2021 17:51 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: You can't simply remove Flash from the equation without accepting your data is going to be flawed. Flash is responsible for many other terrans eliminated from the competition. E.g. in some of those ASL wins where Flash won, some other terrans could have won too. that's true but the same can be said for the protoss/zerg players he beat | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4441 Posts
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Puosu
6986 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/j49Rctr/rdistasl1-11.png) | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4020 Posts
On August 31 2021 19:48 Anc13nt wrote: that's true but the same can be said for the protoss/zerg players he beat no removing any data does not mean the same outcome. There is 0 proof that the effect of Flash knocking out a Terran and and a Z/P is the same. | ||
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oxKnu
1207 Posts
Also the KSL format was way more in-tune with the better player winning since the series were never Bo1 and the maps were always standard or played to death already. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 31 2021 18:08 TMNT wrote: Wait. What? No they weren't. How did you get this idea? By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4441 Posts
On August 31 2021 23:12 outscar wrote: So no one is going to talk about FlaSh's random is on 2nd spot? He is not human. It's an inconvenient fact, a curveball if you will. Imbalance-theorists tend to ignore these curveballs. Just the fact alone that Flash has a 75% terran winrate and no one comes even close. That's not being talked about, if anything imbalance-theorists like to remove his games to see if that better supports their views. Whatever can be done to support a personal bias. | ||
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Puosu
6986 Posts
On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote: By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. But it seems unlikely that Light would keep playing terran if he believes that his protoss is better, given that there's a monetary incentive for doing as well as possible in leagues etc. Are there any statistics for Light's protoss matches? | ||
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Puosu
6986 Posts
protoss 52.3% zerg 54.26% terran 52.9% terran without FlaSh 49.2% But, again looking at only the %s in the op, even the difference between terran without FlaSh and zerg is not statistically significant (p=0.089). Of course this kinda stuff should be done with better data. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 31 2021 23:49 Puosu wrote: But it seems unlikely that Light would keep playing terran if he believes that his protoss is better, given that there's a monetary incentive for doing as well as possible in leagues etc. Are there any statistics for Light's protoss matches? I didn't say he was better at protoss than terran. But I will admit that they are probably not the best in PvZ, the matchup needs a lot more practice. Mini and Bisu are probably still much better, but their PvT is high-end. As far as I am concerned, Flash beating Snow in PvP in the ASL was the nail in the coffin when it comes to imbalance talks. Some players are just a lot more talented than others. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On August 31 2021 09:24 FyRe_DragOn wrote: why dont we take out the strongest players from Z and P and look at how bad their stats are too? There are many more protoss and especially zerg players above 50% winrate than terran, so it would probably still be bad for terran. I am coming to agreement with some of the other posters that it has to do with new, unorthadox maps destroying terran winrate in ASL while spongames are on standard maps. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On August 31 2021 18:54 oxKnu wrote: An interesting thought idea about Flash. I was thinking what would happen if he was to play either Zerg or Protoss in any of the ASL's he participated in. I think he could win 3 titles with Zerg but only one with Protoss. Although I could be wrong, he would certainly be more creative with Protoss than any of the current pros I think. Obviously given time he could potentially come up with diffrent starts, but flash is very consistent. What he does with a race doesnt represent its aggregate performance, thats the whole point of this topic. We saw snippets in his random, where he beat some protosses in PvP. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On August 31 2021 23:25 Magic Powers wrote: It's an inconvenient fact, a curveball if you will. Imbalance-theorists tend to ignore these curveballs. Just the fact alone that Flash has a 75% terran winrate and no one comes even close. That's not being talked about, if anything imbalance-theorists like to remove his games to see if that better supports their views. Whatever can be done to support a personal bias. When your looking at data, you remove the outliers. Flash is just one person, his stategies should be considered but his personal performance is reasonable to be removed. Additonally, this post is bringing notice to terrans abnormally HIGH winrate, as contrasted to the ASL. If anything, this is more a question or terrans strength rather than its weakness. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On August 31 2021 22:12 Magic Powers wrote: Why is the right side of the image cropped out? Is it too inconvenient for the point? I messed up and didnt upload the full image. I will post the full stats right here. https://yt3.ggpht.com/72jjHAJ5unHWl8djMfdvbtduwBDdiQ1UcY4Lo1OcKdJj-p6iMS2to1QnI3jzZhAnI2qWMcaSJaeDTQ=s640-nd | ||
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TMNT
2904 Posts
On September 01 2021 01:16 Essbee wrote: I didn't say he was better at protoss than terran. But I will admit that they are probably not the best in PvZ, the matchup needs a lot more practice. Mini and Bisu are probably still much better, but their PvT is high-end. As far as I am concerned, Flash beating Snow in PvP in the ASL was the nail in the coffin when it comes to imbalance talks. Some players are just a lot more talented than others. Flash beat Snow as RvP, not PvP, and it has nothing to do with balance talks. Some people just like to bring that false fact out as a mean to say Flash is the best Protoss which is ridiculous. In addition: - Game 1 Flash won off a hidden base. It was a strategic win, a one-off tournament build. It proved nothing skill-wise. - Game 2 was on a 4 player map, so Snow chose to go 12 Nexus, but then Flash randomed into Protoss again which put Snow into a very difficult position (you rarely escape with 12 Nexus in PvP at pro level). Let Flash pick Protoss and have a BO9 with Snow and we're talking. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On August 31 2021 22:58 Essbee wrote: By watching them play. They are both better at PvT than anyone else, especially Light. Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On September 01 2021 02:07 Steeles21600 wrote: Light isnt the best protoss, because he stopped playing protoss and only played then because he viewed the map pool as so bad for terran that it would be better to play protoss. Flash's protoss was actually commented on by zero in a video jinjin once uploaded and being "nothing special". Im sure given more time they could become very good players in their races, but if they were so supposedly good at protoss but then still chose terran to win, that just backs up tesagi as an argument. Yeah, Light literally went Protoss for a while and couldn't even qualify for the tournament he was going for. Pure bait. | ||
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