EPTHave not played starcraft actively in about a year and its all because of the finger pains(mainly index finger)ive exoerienced the past 2 years. This past year has been the worst so far and it seems to only get worse despite hardly playing anymore. Decided to take a break in hopes that by this time i would at least be able to play a few games without the distracting pain coming from my joints but that has not been the case unfurtinately. Figured i couldnt be the only person dealing with this in the sc community and thought if somone has a solution or some sort of remedy its you guys.
Index-Finger Joint Pain.
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
Have not played starcraft actively in about a year and its all because of the finger pains(mainly index finger)ive exoerienced the past 2 years. This past year has been the worst so far and it seems to only get worse despite hardly playing anymore. Decided to take a break in hopes that by this time i would at least be able to play a few games without the distracting pain coming from my joints but that has not been the case unfurtinately. Figured i couldnt be the only person dealing with this in the sc community and thought if somone has a solution or some sort of remedy its you guys. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1177 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4455 Posts
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LML
Germany1794 Posts
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pebble444
Italy2503 Posts
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
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Jealous
10388 Posts
Perhaps it has something to do with how you hold your mouse, how you are sitting (shoulder-elbow-wrist configuration), whether you experience abnormal amounts of unconscious muscle tension, or some other underlying condition. Your experience definitely sounds abnormal to me, so perhaps you should try messing around with your battle station settings, or consult with a physician. If people who play casually at non-progamer levels were experiencing something as severe as you are describing, I imagine it would be a much more talked-about issue. Then again, maybe those people just quit? Either way, good luck with the situation and I hope you figure out what the issue is. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 25 2021 22:42 Jealous wrote: Everyone's body is different; in the (not-too-distant) past, I have had periods where I played upwards of ~30 hours a week, averaging 180-250 APM every game, and have never once had a finger pain issue. In fact, in the 20 years I've played Brood War, the only consistent issues I've faced were finger coldness/numbness, but that is exacerbated by the fact that I am a smoker (poor circulation to the extremities) and was fixed by controlling my posture, arm position, and temperature in my home office. I no longer have this issue and it was never that severe to begin with, I would just shake my hand for a few seconds after a game and I'm set. Perhaps it has something to do with how you hold your mouse, how you are sitting (shoulder-elbow-wrist configuration), whether you experience abnormal amounts of unconscious muscle tension, or some other underlying condition. Your experience definitely sounds abnormal to me, so perhaps you should try messing around with your battle station settings, or consult with a physician. If people who play casually at non-progamer levels were experiencing something as severe as you are describing, I imagine it would be a much more talked-about issue. Then again, maybe those people just quit? Either way, good luck with the situation and I hope you figure out what the issue is. Wow, thats amazing. Either good genetics or just good posture. I'm actually interested to know how you hold your mouse, what grip style you use, what DPI you use. Whatever grip you're using it's clearly ideal for longevity. Been playing as long as you have and apparently i'm doing something wrong. Genetics could also play a role but i highly doubt that is the reason. Don't recall any family members complaining or talking about joint problems. If you ever have the opportunity and dont mind, could you explain or private msg me a photo of your hand position? I know it's an odd request but at this point im willing to do anything to preserve the health of my hands. Can't imagine ever quitting starcraft, not anytime soon anyway. One thing ive noticed is going palm grip reduces the pain but for starcraft, palm grip isn't ideal cause of all the micro movements required. Another thing ive done lately is increased my DPI and that also has helped since theres less finger movement required to get from one point of the screen to another and ofc this one comes at the cost of accuracy which im fine with honestly, not trying to go pro just want to be able to play Starcraft. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 25 2021 23:22 Freakling wrote: Have you seen a doctor about the issue? No. Unfortunately im not in a position financially to visit a doctor about something like this. If it were more serious injury like a fracture then I wouldn't be as hesitant. This pain only happens when I play starcraft so it isn't a life altering injury yet or one i think is worthy of a doctor visit and in fact I dont even notice it until maybe 8-10 mins into playing starcraft. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 25 2021 21:58 pebble444 wrote: Arnica TY I will give it a test drive. How do you usually take this? Tea? | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 25 2021 17:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: This is from your mouse finger? Possibly try buying a more ergonomic style mouse, or if you can use your mouse with the other hand but really from what you have said it doesn't sound good.I'd consider stopping playing altogether if the pain has been getting worse even though you have been playing less. Yeah its my index finger, the joint closest to the tip of the finger aches quite a bit to the point that sometimes i can't even play more than 1 game. I'd be seriously pushing it if i played 2-3 games at high pace. Generally my APM is 250-300 and i can't play more than 1 game without consciously forcing myself to battle through the pain. I should clarify that I only feel this pain 8-15mins into playing the game, otherwise I would never know I had a joint problem. Can't believe this isn't a more common issue for you guys. CLEARY im doing something wrong. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 25 2021 16:48 BlueStar wrote: I've heard some people treat such pains with canna butter. No clue if it works tho. Heard about this too. Not interested in doing cannabis. Closed that door long time ago and i dont plan on re-opening it. Not that it's a terrible thing, i just rather not start smoking or ingesting any sort of product that is related to weed. Don't plan on taking painkillers either, ever. I could be laying on the floor from pain and I most likely wont take painkillers. I got severe burns on my forearm, shoulder, chest area a couple of years ago from boiling oil splashing onto me and when the doctor prescribe painkillers, despite the crazy amounts of pain, still refused to take a single pill. I did drink a few shots of vodka though. | ||
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Jealous
10388 Posts
On June 26 2021 01:59 Cheesefome wrote: Yeah its my index finger, the joint closest to the tip of the finger aches quite a bit to the point that sometimes i can't even play more than 1 game. I'd be seriously pushing it if i played 2-3 games at high pace. Generally my APM is 250-300 and i can't play more than 1 game without consciously forcing myself to battle through the pain. I should clarify that I only feel this pain 8-15mins into playing the game, otherwise I would never know I had a joint problem. Can't believe this isn't a more common issue for you guys. CLEARY im doing something wrong. I'm confused as to how the joint on the tip of your finger could hurt; for me it barely bends at all while playing. I press the button with only the tip of my finger in a loose claw grip, but usually my whole finger moves to press down in it, and it is mostly rigid but relaxed (not bending much but not strained, either). It sounds like maybe you are actually pressing the button with just that top joint, which sounds insane to me. I just did a couple test runs of that and the tendon in the top of my hand hurt almost immediately, and the joint/muscle of the tip of my finger got sore quickly. Video of me doing 2G Zealot vs. Protoss AI, I recommend muting the sound because my spamming the keyboard sounds like a constant vibration, which I was not aware of when I was recording (I put the webcam on top of my keyboard lol): + Show Spoiler + I'm surprised by how much my fingers lift off the mouse mid-game, I've never noticed myself doing that, maybe because I am always looking from the side and up. As far as the rest of my set up, I have a pretty standard office chair, my shoulders to elbows to hands are at around 90 degrees, my arms maybe a bit more spread out to the sides with the elbows supported by the arm rest. Wrist is pretty much stationary for most of the game and I move the mouse mostly with my thumb, ring, and pinky finger for small movements and moving my wrist for bigger movements. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 26 2021 02:41 Jealous wrote: I'm confused as to how the joint on the tip of your finger could hurt; for me it barely bends at all while playing. I press the button with only the tip of my finger in a loose claw grip, but usually my whole finger moves to press down in it, and it is mostly rigid but relaxed (not bending much but not strained, either). It sounds like maybe you are actually pressing the button with just that top joint, which sounds insane to me. I just did a couple test runs of that and the tendon in the top of my hand hurt almost immediately, and the joint/muscle of the tip of my finger got sore quickly. Video of me doing 2G Zealot vs. Protoss AI, I recommend muting the sound because my spamming the keyboard sounds like a constant vibration, which I was not aware of when I was recording (I put the webcam on top of my keyboard lol): + Show Spoiler + I'm surprised by how much my fingers lift off the mouse mid-game, I've never noticed myself doing that, maybe because I am always looking from the side and up. As far as the rest of my set up, I have a pretty standard office chair, my shoulders to elbows to hands are at around 90 degrees, my arms maybe a bit more spread out to the sides with the elbows supported by the arm rest. Wrist is pretty much stationary for most of the game and I move the mouse mostly with my thumb, ring, and pinky finger for small movements and moving my wrist for bigger movements. Yeah i just realized why my joints ache and are potentially permanently damaged. Your method of controlling the mouse is different to mine. I actually use my index and middle finger to not only push the buttons but to also control the position of the mouse, in your video you use your thumb and probably ring finger to move the mouse and only use your index+middle finger to click mouse. This explains so much. My very first PC game was age of empires, starcraft and a few other RTS and i think all the boxing in helped built a really bad habbit of using my index finger to control the mouse instead of my thumb/ring finger. Appreciate the video, think this method might help me avoid further damage to some degree. Thanks for taking the time to make the clip and upload it, really. Its going to be tough overwritting a habit ive been religiously doing for the past 20 years, im excited to see if it at least minimizes further damage, ill probably update the post in a month or 2 to see if it helped me im very sure it will. Thanks again dude! You are awesome! | ||
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Grouhh
57 Posts
For what it is worth, my general advice would be :
For example
Finally, I would advise not to believe snake oil remedies on the internet. There is no miracle treatment. Even doctors wont do much more than offering anti inflammatory drugs once MRI reveals no damage to you tendons (been there done that). So unless you have some weird medical condition, the solution will most likely come from yourself being smart about it and working on fixing your gestures (and avoid over-practicing). | ||
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Grouhh
57 Posts
On June 26 2021 04:20 Cheesefome wrote: I actually use my index and middle finger to not only push the buttons but to also control the position of the mouse, in your video you use your thumb and probably ring finger to move the mouse and only use your index+middle finger to click mouse. This explains so much. My very first PC game was age of empires, starcraft and a few other RTS and i think all the boxing in helped built a really bad habbit of using my index finger to control the mouse instead of my thumb/ring finger Bingo | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
On June 26 2021 01:51 Cheesefome wrote: No. Unfortunately im not in a position financially to visit a doctor about something like this. If it were more serious injury like a fracture then I wouldn't be as hesitant. This pain only happens when I play starcraft so it isn't a life altering injury yet or one i think is worthy of a doctor visit and in fact I dont even notice it until maybe 8-10 mins into playing starcraft. 2 years of pain sound like a serious issue to me. Do you know it's not a fracture? Not even knowing what's behind the pain makes it hard to recommend anything. Where are you from? How much would a simple GP visit set you back, relatively speaking? As for maybe narrowing down the source of the problem a bit: Aside from gaming, what else do you still use your finger for? Do you have a job that forces you to work on a computer a lot? Do any of the things you do regularly cause pain? EDIT: From your other posts it seems like a bad "mouse hold" is the reason for overstrain. Best you can possibly do is keep away from all computer activities (and anything else that might be contributing) to give your finger time to properly heal. Will probably take a few weeks, possibly a couple of months. You can try taping your fingers or otherwise immobilizing them, even if it is just to remind you to go easy on them through the unfamiliar feedback. Is the joint palpably hard, swollen or feals hot (signs of inflamation)? In that case cooling might help (though probably less so for a chronic condition). Once you have properly cured your hand (not before, as pain avoidance can easily lead to a new problems with (hand) posture), you really should take the time to (re)train some better movement patterns: - Create very simple exercises for yourself (in an SC context, just starting a game at a low game speed and assigning workers to mineral patches would be an example). Keep your APM low enough that you can consciously concentrate on every movement you make. - Try to execute each movement as minimal, relaxed, mindful and slow as possible. - Consciously focus on the feedback your body (or in this case, your finger, hand, arm, shoulder…) give you. If it doesn't feel comfortable or actually hurts, it is probably not good for you. - On this basis: Experiment! - Also since this is basically the recipe to learn any sport, or instrument, or any dexterity-based activity in general, maybe try out a new hobby in the meantime. Something that doesn't depend on healthy fingers. | ||
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TequilaMockingbird
Germany68 Posts
that I know finally figured out what kind of stretches / yoga I need to do, in order to keep it in check. Was a very long process obviously and there were times where I thought I would never play a single game in my life again but now I am able to play for several hours without any issues. Do not give up hope, try different things, go see a doctor, or maybe even better a physical therapist, work on your posture, maybe change your gaming set up (chair, table mouse etc.) around - this actually helped me a lot, do exercises and so on. I hope you find something that alleviates your pain. | ||
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Jealous
10388 Posts
On June 26 2021 04:20 Cheesefome wrote: Yeah i just realized why my joints ache and are potentially permanently damaged. Your method of controlling the mouse is different to mine. I actually use my index and middle finger to not only push the buttons but to also control the position of the mouse, in your video you use your thumb and probably ring finger to move the mouse and only use your index+middle finger to click mouse. This explains so much. My very first PC game was age of empires, starcraft and a few other RTS and i think all the boxing in helped built a really bad habbit of using my index finger to control the mouse instead of my thumb/ring finger. Appreciate the video, think this method might help me avoid further damage to some degree. Thanks for taking the time to make the clip and upload it, really. Its going to be tough overwritting a habit ive been religiously doing for the past 20 years, im excited to see if it at least minimizes further damage, ill probably update the post in a month or 2 to see if it helped me im very sure it will. Thanks again dude! You are awesome! NP. I do want to stress that you should still see a doctor, I think. If you're saying you can't afford it, then maybe you need to invest some time into fixing that situation (get assistance, get a side gig, get better insurance, idk) in order to fix your finger pain situation. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 26 2021 04:41 Grouhh wrote: I've had countless tendinitis due to sport, music, and, of course, computer, including a pretty bad case of right index finger tendinosis which is now under control. For what it is worth, my general advice would be :
For example
Finally, I would advise not to believe snake oil remedies on the internet. There is no miracle treatment. Even doctors wont do much more than offering anti inflammatory drugs once MRI reveals no damage to you tendons (been there done that). So unless you have some weird medical condition, the solution will most likely come from yourself being smart about it and working on fixing your gestures (and avoid over-practicing). Hey dude thanks for the pointers really glad i made this post. You know its funny you mention that last point to not use finger to move mouse sideways because its something I do very often.That is why i asked that odd question of someone describing their mouse grip or a video. Like i said im so glad i made this post before my joint issue potentially became permanent if it isnt already. I dont think so though cause ive heard people with permanent joint problems describe the pain as constant and for me that is not the case yet furtinately so perhaps there is still hope. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 26 2021 05:00 Freakling wrote: 2 years of pain sound like a serious issue to me. Do you know it's not a fracture? Not even knowing what's behind the pain makes it hard to recommend anything. Where are you from? How much would a simple GP visit set you back, relatively speaking? As for maybe narrowing down the source of the problem a bit: Aside from gaming, what else do you still use your finger for? Do you have a job that forces you to work on a computer a lot? Do any of the things you do regularly cause pain? EDIT: From your other posts it seems like a bad "mouse hold" is the reason for overstrain. Best you can possibly do is keep away from all computer activities (and anything else that might be contributing) to give your finger time to properly heal. Will probably take a few weeks, possibly a couple of months. You can try taping your fingers or otherwise immobilizing them, even if it is just to remind you to go easy on them through the unfamiliar feedback. Is the joint palpably hard, swollen or feals hot (signs of inflamation)? In that case cooling might help (though probably less so for a chronic condition). Once you have properly cured your hand (not before, as pain avoidance can easily lead to a new problems with (hand) posture), you really should take the time to (re)train some better movement patterns: - Create very simple exercises for yourself (in an SC context, just starting a game at a low game speed and assigning workers to mineral patches would be an example). Keep your APM low enough that you can consciously concentrate on every movement you make. - Try to execute each movement as minimal, relaxed, mindful and slow as possible. - Consciously focus on the feedback your body (or in this case, your finger, hand, arm, shoulder…) give you. If it doesn't feel comfortable or actually hurts, it is probably not good for you. - On this basis: Experiment! - Also since this is basically the recipe to learn any sport, or instrument, or any dexterity-based activity in general, maybe try out a new hobby in the meantime. Something that doesn't depend on healthy fingers. You hit the nail on the head. Its appears to me that its poor mouse grip habbits. I think as long as i build better habbit i should at least be able to stop the damage from getting worse. The pain isnt like a fracture pain, it feels like its the start of severe arthritis. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 26 2021 05:10 TequilaMockingbird wrote: Have you tried stretches / exercises ? I had pretty severe RSI in my mouse arm that started in 2014 but I think (hope!) that I know finally figured out what kind of stretches / yoga I need to do, in order to keep it in check. Was a very long process obviously and there were times where I thought I would never play a single game in my life again but now I am able to play for several hours without any issues. Do not give up hope, try different things, go see a doctor, or maybe even better a physical therapist, work on your posture, maybe change your gaming set up (chair, table mouse etc.) around - this actually helped me a lot, do exercises and so on. I hope you find something that alleviates your pain. Ya im pretty much doing a mixture of all these suggestions. Cant let it get worse. Glad you found a solution, it means there is light at the end of the tunnel. Seems dramatic but seriously staecraft is the only thing i could picture myself doing for the rest of my life, its beeny fav hobby for the past 20+ years. I know for a fact its the nasty barbaric grip i have thats the cause of i so i will prioratize that first. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7083 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
Mouse is not defected, but the manufacture messed up the click button when they were making the mouse. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 26 2021 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I was always using G400 g403 shape mouse.Then when I switched to FK mini I was having insane pain after few games.I was forcing myself for months and I was still having it.Now im back to g403 and is gone. Mouse designs believe it or not play a huge role on the longevity of your joints. Ive also been in a similar situation when using nkey g007 mouse. My fingers would ache whenever I used it. For the sake of checking if it was the mouse, I would switch to my Logitech g100 and the pains would drastically subside. Coming from someone who is dealing with this now, take care of your joints people, take care of your hands and stay hydrated(especially if you drink coffee during gaming), do hand exercises and keep your fingers in motion between games, for example close and open your fingers. Simple things like those could help maintain your joints healthy and help slow down the inevitable. Don't overlook the pain, buy a new mouse, one that fits comfortably in your hand. Mice designs are kind of barbaric and they haven't changed in ages. | ||
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Cheesefome
320 Posts
On June 26 2021 22:23 LaStScan wrote: It could be the mouse grip/button height pressure. I recently bought 3 of FKmini3 black/silver/football designs, it gave my fingers pain. Mouse is not defected, but the manufacture messed up the click button when they were making the mouse. Remember a few years back buying like 3-4 logitech g100's because I fell in love with the first one i bought. Turned out some of the older model's buttons were either very loud when you clicked them or tougher to push down. I stop buying them after that. Logitech isn't very consistent with that model and im not sure if that applies to all mice since that was the only model ive ever bought in bulk but for that model, they were inconsistent. I think that is exactly it. Mice these days are outdated probably the few things that I can think of that aren't really evolving. So many gamers have hand problems. I might start looking for a mouse that is designed more like a ball, something that is more natural to my hand position especially since my hands are tiny. All the mouses ive ever owned feel like im holding a giant rock which often feels like my fingers are being forced into unnatural positions which is probably another factor that is playing a role on my joint problems. Ive just been thinking a lot about mice designs since the joint issue came up. Maybe I should design a mouse for longevity xD. | ||
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Jealous
10388 Posts
On June 27 2021 01:30 Cheesefome wrote: Mouse designs believe it or not play a huge role on the longevity of your joints. Ive also been in a similar situation when using nkey g007 mouse. My fingers would ache whenever I used it. For the sake of checking if it was the mouse, I would switch to my Logitech g100 and the pains would drastically subside. Coming from someone who is dealing with this now, take care of your joints people, take care of your hands and stay hydrated(especially if you drink coffee during gaming), do hand exercises and keep your fingers in motion between games, for example close and open your fingers. Simple things like those could help maintain your joints healthy and help slow down the inevitable. Don't overlook the pain, buy a new mouse, one that fits comfortably in your hand. Mice designs are kind of barbaric and they haven't changed in ages. I'm by no means the fastest or strongest player, nor is my experience going to be reflective of everyone else, but I found that mouses that are ergonomically designed (contours for fingers on the sides and on the clicking parts themselves) to be a major upgrade over traditional "smooth" office mice that look like transplants from the 90s or from low budget school libraries. As far as size, my hands are pretty small given my height (7.5" from base of palm to tip of middle finger, 8.5" from thumb to pinky in maximum extension; height 71") so this has led me to try smaller mice like the Logitech M325 [Height: 3.73 in (94.7 mm), Width: 2.24 in (57 mm), Depth: 1.54 in (39.1 mm)], and I've used even smaller mice like the M187 [Height: 3.22 in (81.9 mm), Width: 1.94 in (49.4 mm), Depth: 1.25 in (31.8 mm)]. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Logitech, I just love their mice. I've found that despite the obvious advantages of having a lightweight, portable mouse, mice that are closer to the size of fitting perfectly in my palm with my fingers extended "feel" the best even though I never actually palm the mouse. I suspect this is because my fingers have to bend less in order to press the clicky parts and my thumb and ring+pinky don't have to clutch the mouse as tightly in my hand. I imagine this isn't a big problem for people who have hands on the smaller side like mine, but I know some of you apes have big ass hands and I would suggest getting large mice for you Neanderthals. My current mouse is one I've been using for about 8 years now since I gave up the M325, it's the Logitech M525 [Height: 4.00 in (101.5 mm), Width: 2.24 in (57 mm), Depth: 1.51 in (38.3 mm)]. It's not a gaming mouse and is still considered "compact", but it fits just about perfectly for me, is durable, costs like $25, and is widely available. I really can't praise it enough; obviously I may not have been "in tune" with the other mice I've tried, but after having used many of my friends' mice over the years, including higher-end gaming mice from Razer and such, this is still my go-to. For anyone with similar hand dimensions to mine, I strongly recommend it. If your hands are more average/larger sized, something from Logitech's "gaming" line may be more in line with what would hypothetically work for you, if my experience is indicative of a trend. Something like the G703 [Height: 4.92 in (125.0 mm), Width: 2.50 in (63.5 mm), Depth: 1.57 in (40.0 mm)] would in theory be good for people whose hands are about 25% bigger than mine (so, 9" from base of palm to tip of middle finger, 10" from pinky to thumb with full extension), and if your hands are even bigger than that, perhaps the MX518 [Height: 5.16 in (131 mm). Width: 2.87 in (73 mm), Depth: 1.69 in (43 mm)] would be a good fit if your hands are 30%+ bigger than mine (10" base of palm to tip of middle finger, 11" from pinky to thumb full extension), and it looks to be contoured almost identically to the M525 that I use. Hope this helps anyone out there who is considering mice alternatives and looking for comfort with a loose claw grip. EDIT: Also, this is pretty well-known but should still be mentioned in this discussion, but sensitivity plays a huge factor on what joints you use and how while gaming. I know that many FPS players prefer low sensitivity and move their whole arm in order to have quicker/more accurate reactions, but I imagine that this puts a lot of strain on parts of the arm that I never use when playing RTS. Higher sensitivity = no arm movement, less wrist movement, more adjustments possible with just fingers, obv. | ||
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