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On April 20 2021 14:44 Jealous wrote:
I've been coding in my spare time for the past few months and it's actually absurd how shitty Java is. Like the whole structure is just trash. And people complain about C++, shit isn't even comparable lol. I'm an expert now btw, and my name is TentativeDumbass.
High effort, low quality response
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On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post
a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance
just THINK about what u are saying:
you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things
some people really lack common sense and logic ;(
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On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post
Then play sc2.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51133 Posts
On April 20 2021 23:32 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 14:44 Jealous wrote:
I've been coding in my spare time for the past few months and it's actually absurd how shitty Java is. Like the whole structure is just trash. And people complain about C++, shit isn't even comparable lol. I'm an expert now btw, and my name is TentativeDumbass. High effort, low quality response
Respond to my post first, instead of the insults hurled at you.
You won't get a balance patch but at least you won't get stuck in a position where you end up making statements that warrant such responses as the ones you got.
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On April 20 2021 21:43 Avi-Love wrote:We have something way better, it's called Sponbbang. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/oghlty5.png)
So, in other words, not much has changed, except the gap in TvZ widening slightly (I'll blindly blame Flash playing a bunch of these showmatches for that).
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On April 21 2021 04:15 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 21:43 Avi-Love wrote:We have something way better, it's called Sponbbang. So, in other words, not much has changed.
Please help me see how this is the conclusion you arrived at.
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On April 21 2021 04:16 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 04:15 True_Spike wrote:On April 20 2021 21:43 Avi-Love wrote:We have something way better, it's called Sponbbang. So, in other words, not much has changed. Please help me see how this is the conclusion you arrived at.
The numbers are fairly similar to what I recall seeing at the end of professional BW. I guess protoss actually fares slightly worse nowadays, too (seeing as the mu is very slightly T favoured now).
In fact, I found something on TL.net while looking for the exact numbers (not sure how accurate that is):
On March 21 2016 06:07 prech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 02:00 StarN wrote:
Hey guys I'm working on a presentation and I wasn't able to figure out how to get TLPD to show me OSL win-loss records for TvP PvZ and ZvT
That is, is there a (mostly) completed win-loss statistic for every OSL game played (in Brood War)?
Alas, didn't separate based on the league itself (OSL, MSL, etc,), but cumulatively for the Korean leagues -- For individual standard leagues (non-show matches):  v  1254-1042 or 54.6% v  1192-1139 or 51.1% v 1871-1597 or 54.0% For team standard leagues (non-show matches) v 709-644 or 52.4% v 742-702 or 51.4% v 800-684 or 53.9%
Do note these are all-time stats and don't reflect the state of the game at a given point.
And I guess this can be interesting, too:
On March 23 2016 03:57 zimp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 11:22 puppykiller wrote:
I would like to see the race statistics of iccup games :3 2009 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rm91OAF.png) 2016 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oiY1ftc.png)
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On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;(
This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is.
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On April 21 2021 04:26 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;( This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is.
If that makes the race better, then why isn't that race winning the most?
It is in fact winning the least (but not by much)
Or do we have a badass over here who claims that Terran is the easiest race for a beginner to start getting some wins with?
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On April 21 2021 04:20 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 04:16 Jealous wrote:On April 21 2021 04:15 True_Spike wrote:On April 20 2021 21:43 Avi-Love wrote:We have something way better, it's called Sponbbang. So, in other words, not much has changed. Please help me see how this is the conclusion you arrived at. The numbers are fairly similar to what I recall seeing at the end of professional BW. In fact, I found something on TL.net while looking for the exact numbers (not sure how accurate that is): Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 06:07 prech wrote:On March 21 2016 02:00 StarN wrote:
Hey guys I'm working on a presentation and I wasn't able to figure out how to get TLPD to show me OSL win-loss records for TvP PvZ and ZvT
That is, is there a (mostly) completed win-loss statistic for every OSL game played (in Brood War)?
Alas, didn't separate based on the league itself (OSL, MSL, etc,), but cumulatively for the Korean leagues -- For individual standard leagues (non-show matches): v 1254-1042 or 54.6% v 1192-1139 or 51.1% v 1871-1597 or 54.0% For team standard leagues (non-show matches) v 709-644 or 52.4% v 742-702 or 51.4% v 800-684 or 53.9%
Fairly similar in what universe based on what kind of mathematics? Terran is winning in TvP at ~55% percent now.
The eye test (especially the last 1-2 years) is very much in line with the sponbbang statistics posted by Avi. Protoss is significantly the weakest race right now. Rain leaving the game definitely played a role but there are leavers from the other races as well: SK absent for a while, JD always had decent sponbbang stats, Last, Mind for Terran etc..
So overall I would say the latest revisions of the meta have generally distanced Terran and Zerg from Protoss and by the looks of it this trend will continue since the latest map-pool of ASL is very anti-Protoss again.
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On April 21 2021 04:29 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 04:26 TentativePanda wrote:On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;( This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is. If that makes the race better, then why isn't that race winning the most? It is in fact winning the least (but not by much) Or do we have a badass over here who claims that Terran is the easiest race for a beginner to start getting some wins with?
I’m talking sub pro level, something often ignored, but very important to the scenes/games health.
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On April 21 2021 04:51 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 04:29 vOdToasT wrote:On April 21 2021 04:26 TentativePanda wrote:On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;( This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is. If that makes the race better, then why isn't that race winning the most? It is in fact winning the least (but not by much) Or do we have a badass over here who claims that Terran is the easiest race for a beginner to start getting some wins with? I’m talking sub pro level, something often ignored, but very important to the scenes/games health.
I'm sub pro level and Protoss isn't OP at my level. When I played Zerg I smashed Protoss left and right, and when I switched to Protoss I didn't get any better than I had been with Zerg. My PvP was about equal to my ZvP.
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On April 21 2021 05:13 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 04:51 TentativePanda wrote:On April 21 2021 04:29 vOdToasT wrote:On April 21 2021 04:26 TentativePanda wrote:On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;( This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is. If that makes the race better, then why isn't that race winning the most? It is in fact winning the least (but not by much) Or do we have a badass over here who claims that Terran is the easiest race for a beginner to start getting some wins with? I’m talking sub pro level, something often ignored, but very important to the scenes/games health. I'm sub pro level and Protoss isn't OP at my level. When I played Zerg I smashed Protoss left and right, and when I switched to Protoss I didn't get any better than I had been with Zerg. My PvP was about equal to my ZvP.
In fact just about any sub pro who plays enough ladder games will be at a point where they win about 50% of their games regardless of what race they play, strange how that works.
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On April 21 2021 05:29 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 05:13 vOdToasT wrote:On April 21 2021 04:51 TentativePanda wrote:On April 21 2021 04:29 vOdToasT wrote:On April 21 2021 04:26 TentativePanda wrote:On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;( This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is. If that makes the race better, then why isn't that race winning the most? It is in fact winning the least (but not by much) Or do we have a badass over here who claims that Terran is the easiest race for a beginner to start getting some wins with? I’m talking sub pro level, something often ignored, but very important to the scenes/games health. I'm sub pro level and Protoss isn't OP at my level. When I played Zerg I smashed Protoss left and right, and when I switched to Protoss I didn't get any better than I had been with Zerg. My PvP was about equal to my ZvP. In fact just about any sub pro who plays enough ladder games will be at a point where they win about 50% of their games regardless of what race they play, strange how that works.
Every one who isn't among the very best or the very worst will reach a 50% win rate eventually. But, this is the case even in an imbalanced game. In an imbalanced game, even though every one has 50% wins, the superior race will let players plateau at a higher ladder rating compared to their skill level, and where they would plateau with a different race. Of course people have affinities for different races, too, which complicates the matter of measuring this.
Anyway, Protoss is stronger at a low enough skill level. I agree. I saw this and picked Protoss when I started because StarCraft was a scary game compared to Command & Conquer. This skill level ends much sooner than TentativePanda thinks, however. I remember how it was to start out, and to progress to where I am now, and I remember when Protoss stopped being stronger (I've mained every race).
There is also, in my experience, a level at which Zerg is the strongest, which comes after the level at which Protoss is the strongest, but maybe that was just me having an affinity for Zerg.
I think that people should play what they think is the strongest, and what they believe in. If every one were to do this,
then every race would still be represented, and we'd have a lot more fun and a lot less complaining. I actually used to think that Protoss was the strongest, and then I changed my mind to thinking that Zerg was the strongest (for me at my skill level).
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On April 21 2021 04:51 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 04:29 vOdToasT wrote:On April 21 2021 04:26 TentativePanda wrote:On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;( This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is. If that makes the race better, then why isn't that race winning the most? It is in fact winning the least (but not by much) Or do we have a badass over here who claims that Terran is the easiest race for a beginner to start getting some wins with? I’m talking sub pro level, something often ignored, but very important to the scenes/games health.
Non Koreans are sub pro level, but during the SOSPA era, Zerg dominated the non Korean tournaments. Sziky was the best player, followed by Eonzerg and Trutacz. It wasn't Zerg imbalance when Zerg won tournaments then any more than it is Protoss imbalance when Protoss wins tournaments now.
Bonyth and Dewalt played, but just weren't as good as those Zergs. Now, Bonyth and Dewalt are the best. The races didn't change; the players did.
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Usually Flash plays a significant role in the sponbbang stats, but the truth is that he hasn't actually played much this year; it's quite clear that his injuries and impending military service played a big part in it. For anyone interested, this is the current top 20 based on statistics from 2021 (Jan-April). Note: The zerg ranked 4th is Soma, the terran ranked 12th is sOrry(Royal) and the zerg ranked 15 is Action.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/bXZeES1.png)
As a bonus here are the 3 most popular maps in that time period
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7s6zjTf.png)
And lastly the 3 new ASL maps.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/sZxMYDF.png)
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Shinee's TvP looks interesting
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On April 21 2021 06:53 Bonyth wrote:
Shinee's TvP looks interesting
He's 33-1 vs a guy called 전제민 (MoolSo? Never heard of) 
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On April 21 2021 04:26 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;( This post is so ironic lmao. Let me start with, yes in a game that is about how few errors you can make, how easy a race is is literally what balance is.
That is just not true.
What if playing the harder race good/good enough gives you an advantage vs the easier race?
We always talk about balance from a pure game theory point of view not considering how hard a race is to play. This could be a different discussion but generally speaking whenever we talk balance we simply talk about
how do certain match ups present themselves in terms of win% and thus we deduce wether a map or mappool is fair (45-55% in every match up is deemed fair)
So balance discussion do or at least SHOULD NOT exist without maps.
If you want to discuss what different levels of difficulty do to the game and match ups we can do that BUT that is not what we do when we talk about BALANCE in SC BW.
Got it now?
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On April 20 2021 23:36 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote:
I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance just THINK about what u are saying: you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things some people really lack common sense and logic ;(
To be fair, they are related though.
Race balance judging only by the nature of the race itself is an unrealistic concept, because the true power of a race can only be utilized by an AI controlling every single unit at once, i.e. it has 10000 apm or something.
When controlled by human, the power of the race is restricted by how much the two human hands can handle. So practically, how hard a race is to play does affect the balance.
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EPT
