On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote: I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
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a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance
just THINK about what u are saying:
you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things
some people really lack common sense and logic ;(
To be fair, they are related though.
Race balance judging only by the nature of the race itself is an unrealistic concept, because the true power of a race can only be utilized by an AI controlling every single unit at once, i.e. it has 10000 apm or something.
When controlled by human, the power of the race is restricted by how much the two human hands can handle. So practically, how hard a race is to play does affect the balance.
... And at the top level of human skill, the match-ups are fairly balanced, which is what people have been saying... Meaning that any perceived imbalances by scrubs can be overcome just by learning how to play better instead of spreading their misinformed opinions...
On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote: I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post
a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance
just THINK about what u are saying:
you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things
some people really lack common sense and logic ;(
To be fair, they are related though.
Race balance judging only by the nature of the race itself is an unrealistic concept, because the true power of a race can only be utilized by an AI controlling every single unit at once, i.e. it has 10000 apm or something.
When controlled by human, the power of the race is restricted by how much the two human hands can handle. So practically, how hard a race is to play does affect the balance.
... And at the top level of human skill, the match-ups are fairly balanced, which is what people have been saying... Meaning that any perceived imbalances by scrubs can be overcome just by learning how to play better instead of spreading their misinformed opinions...
Well, we have one the most influential people in foreign BW spreading it on a daily basis on his stream, so...
Its same story over and over. Terran is probably the hardest race to master, but as you go to pro levels it shows to be the strongest. Problem is that where 99% of terrans are it is P>T and T=>Z, with like 60% PvT winrate at lower levels.
On April 21 2021 18:05 kogeT wrote: Its same story over and over. Terran is probably the hardest race to master, but as you go to pro levels it shows to be the strongest. Problem is that where 99% of terrans are it is P>T and T=>Z, with like 60% PvT winrate at lower levels.
The hardest race to master is Zerg, and no human will ever master it because of obvious mechanical limitations.
Turtle + late game Zerg army with near perfect army control = unbeatable. However no one will achieve that so that "imbalance" doesn't matter in the end.
As for your other point, there are dozens of Korean Terrans that are better than the top foreigner protosses so I wouldn't just say that it's only at Pro level that Terran is obviously stronger. I think we can go even one tier below that.
And it's not just mechanics/execution, there is a gap in meta-game knowledge as well.
On April 20 2021 13:04 TentativePanda wrote: I've been playing brood war for a few months now and it's actually absurd how unbalanced the game is. Like one race is explicitly easy to play. And people complain about balance in sc2 , shit isn't even comparable lol. Brood War needs a balance patch to thrive
User was warned for this post
a race being harder to play than the other -/- racial balance
just THINK about what u are saying:
you are talking about "how hard a race is to play/master" and not how balanced the races are. Different things
some people really lack common sense and logic ;(
To be fair, they are related though.
Race balance judging only by the nature of the race itself is an unrealistic concept, because the true power of a race can only be utilized by an AI controlling every single unit at once, i.e. it has 10000 apm or something.
When controlled by human, the power of the race is restricted by how much the two human hands can handle. So practically, how hard a race is to play does affect the balance.
... And at the top level of human skill, the match-ups are fairly balanced, which is what people have been saying... Meaning that any perceived imbalances by scrubs can be overcome just by learning how to play better instead of spreading their misinformed opinions...
Well, we have one the most influential people in foreign BW spreading it on a daily basis on his stream, so...
Yes, but he also believes that accounts can be cursed and that he's constantly unlucky, so...
As for your other point, there are dozens of Korean Terrans that are better than the top foreigner protosses so I wouldn't just say that it's only at Pro level that Terran is obviously stronger. I think we can go even one tier below that.
That means the players are better. Why do you think this proves any thing about a race? There are dozens of Korean protosses who are better than the best foreign protosses. There are better Koreans of every race than the best non Koreans. This was true when the best non Koreans were Zerg, and it's true now that they're Protoss.
As for your other point, there are dozens of Korean Terrans that are better than the top foreigner protosses so I wouldn't just say that it's only at Pro level that Terran is obviously stronger. I think we can go even one tier below that.
There are dozens of Korean protosses who are better than the best foreign protosses. There are better Koreans of every race than the best non Koreans. This was true when the best non Koreans were Zerg, and it's true now that they're Protoss.
I disagree with your first point. However, this can also mean that Protoss at the highest level are in lower numbers overall so there's a dissonance there that would not confirm or disprove my point or yours.
The fact of the matter is that if you go top-to-bottom Terran has the most favorable skill gap out of all races and that gap extends further than widely accepted by the general BW fanbase. Numbers generally seem to back this as well.
This implies a meta-advantage from my POV, perhaps a racial imbalance too if you want to go there. It can be a compounding factor, not just one or the other.
Another balance discussion? Yay! I could not think of a more exciting topic, let me present you my own list of arguments
I like to point back to the quick mech transition in TvZ that initially revolutionized the matchup and years later was met by mass queens which completely flipped the meta back on its head. The matchup underwent several revolutions that initially had zerg players cry their eyeballs out on the regular when terran players (primarily Flash) kept introducing increasingly absurd quick mech transitions (meanwhile Rush never fully hopped on that train, he just kept practicing his hyper aggro m&m strats). There was a rivalry building between Flash and Larva, with the latter trying to figure out a way to combat Flash's superior builds. He eventually discovered that queens could counter siege tanks at literally any point in the game and weren't just a late-late option to break terran defenses, which they were previously used for. The two players got to a point where Larva was in fact almost showing a positive winrate against Flash's mech transitions, and it became clear that Larva had a verrrrry significant advantage if he could reach the late game. Flash's tanks were just getting exploded all over the place by mass broodling assaults. This wasn't just a successful counter to quick mech transition, it actually changed the whole dynamic of TvZ. Suddenly a new meta was reached: terran players feared having to enter the late game as they learned they had a natural and very significant disadvantage at that point. This is still true today. Rush was probably quite happy to see that development, because he was in the process of perfecting his hyper aggro m&m style, which is now considered the optimal approach.
Imagine if a balance talk had taken place (I'd guess it probably has) during the domination that terran players saw during the days of the quick mech transition. Would the complaints be more valid, less valid or equally valid compared to now?
Rather than discussing the imbalance protoss players are facing right now, maybe we should ask the question when will protoss players eventually learn from Bisu how to beat zergs properly? It could happen, it's still his best matchup and he's leading the charge. Maybe the question should be what he's doing differently that's giving him so much better results. Because look at his current PvT and PvP winrates, they're nowhere close to his PvZ winrate. There's clearly something that he understands that seemingly no one else does. Maybe balance is not the real issue, but rather... strategy? Should I be banned for asking such a daring question?
On April 21 2021 20:49 Magic Powers wrote: Another balance discussion? Yay! I could not think of a more exciting topic, let me present you my own list of arguments
I like to point back to the quick mech transition in TvZ that initially revolutionized the matchup and years later was met by mass queens which completely flipped the meta back on its head. The matchup underwent several revolutions that initially had zerg players cry their eyeballs out on the regular when terran players (primarily Flash) kept introducing increasingly absurd quick mech transitions (meanwhile Rush never fully hopped on that train, he just kept practicing his hyper aggro m&m strats). There was a rivalry building between Flash and Larva, with the latter trying to figure out a way to combat Flash's superior builds. He eventually discovered that queens could counter siege tanks at literally any point in the game and weren't just a late-late option to break terran defenses, which they were previously used for. The two players got to a point where Larva was in fact almost showing a positive winrate against Flash's mech transitions, and it became clear that Larva had a verrrrry significant advantage if he could reach the late game. Flash's tanks were just getting exploded all over the place by mass broodling assaults. This wasn't just a successful counter to quick mech transition, it actually changed the whole dynamic of TvZ. Suddenly a new meta was reached: terran players feared having to enter the late game as they learned they had a natural and very significant disadvantage at that point. This is still true today. Rush was probably quite happy to see that development, because he was in the process of perfecting his hyper aggro m&m style, which is now considered the optimal approach.
Imagine if a balance talk had taken place (I'd guess it probably has) during the domination that terran players saw during the days of the quick mech transition. Would the complaints be more valid, less valid or equally valid compared to now?
Rather than discussing the imbalance protoss players are facing right now, maybe we should ask the question when will protoss players eventually learn from Bisu how to beat zergs properly? It could happen, it's still his best matchup and he's leading the charge. Maybe the question should be what he's doing differently that's giving him so much better results. Because look at his current PvT and PvP winrates, they're nowhere close to his PvZ winrate. There's clearly something that he understands that seemingly no one else does. Maybe balance is not the real issue, but rather... strategy? Should I be banned for asking such a daring question?
Bisu just got smacked by Zero in KCM in his supposed slump.
Larva, no matter the strategy that he employed has always been dispatched easily by Flash, his greatest achievement being peaking in the 30% winrate for a few weeks a few years ago.
On April 21 2021 22:06 oxKnu wrote: Bisu just got smacked by Zero in KCM in his supposed slump.
Larva, no matter the strategy that he employed has always been dispatched easily by Flash, his greatest achievement being peaking in the 30% winrate for a few weeks a few years ago.
So Bisu lost one game to one of the best zerg players. Uhm, hold the press?
A 30% winrate against Flash is impressive. How many zerg players can do better? Also, how is this relevant to him figuring out the counter against quick mech and thus solving one of the greatest problems zerg players were facing, and doing so in the process of battling against the best terran player of all time, without requiring a balance patch to do so?
I have trouble seeing how your response counters my arguments.
On April 21 2021 22:06 oxKnu wrote: Bisu just got smacked by Zero in KCM in his supposed slump.
Larva, no matter the strategy that he employed has always been dispatched easily by Flash, his greatest achievement being peaking in the 30% winrate for a few weeks a few years ago.
So Bisu lost one game to one of the best zerg players. Uhm, hold the press?
A 30% winrate against Flash is impressive. How many zerg players can do better? Also, how is this relevant to him figuring out the counter against quick mech and thus solving one of the greatest problems zerg players were facing, and doing so in the process of battling against the best terran player of all time, without requiring a balance patch to do so?
I have trouble seeing how your response counters my arguments.
The other Zerg's didn't follow his meta and his win-rate didn't improve substantially to where it normally was.
Style and novelty is cool but isn't the whole point of a meta to shift the game entirely when it comes to win-rate?
A response to a current strategy is just a response until it proves that is winning at large if implemented by the population.
Protoss suffers from an intrinsic gameplay problem that can never get fixed by strategy development, that their maxed out army is the weakest among 3 races, especially against Terran (not talking about unrealistic situations like 200 carriers).
Take PvT for example. Switch the meta all you want, from DT to Reaver, Arbiter... but once Terran gets to 200/200 it's a mountain to climb. Same for PvZ. In a sense, Protoss is the only race who has to play against a ticking bomb. So if they dont take enough advantage until the late game, the chance for them to lose just keep increasing. I think this partly explains their inferiority at the top level.
On April 21 2021 22:50 oxKnu wrote: The other Zerg's didn't follow his meta and his win-rate didn't improve substantially to where it normally was.
Style and novelty is cool but isn't the whole point of a meta to shift the game entirely when it comes to win-rate?
A response to a current strategy is just a response until it proves that is winning at large if implemented by the population.
It wasn't up to the zerg players to "follow that meta". Larva led the charge in forcing terran players to abandon the quick mech transition and go back to aggro m&m strats. Other zerg players didn't need to contribute much to that strategy shift because Larva was already so successful with it that even Flash surrendered his builds (at least for the time being, but that part of the meta may not yet be fully settled). The point I was making is that, without Larva's mass queen intervention, zerg players would be struggling a lot more against terran than they do now. Terran winrates would likely be skyrocketing rather than being closer to 50%. So the point is that a shift in the meta brought balance to the matchup, it wasn't a balance patch that did it - in fact a balance patch would've likely robbed us of these back and forth discoveries.
To conclude, a strategy shift doesn't have to move the needle from, say, 40% to 60%. That would just make it uneven again - in the opposite direction. Bringing winrates back to somewhat even is by itself a great success, and that's what Larva accomplished with his strategic counter that he developed during his rivalry with Flash.
The meta continues to develop. Balance patches would only ruin that development.
On April 21 2021 23:22 TMNT wrote: Protoss suffers from an intrinsic gameplay problem that can never get fixed by strategy development, that their maxed out army is the weakest among 3 races, especially against Terran (not talking about unrealistic situations like 200 carriers).
Take PvT for example. Switch the meta all you want, from DT to Reaver, Arbiter... but once Terran gets to 200/200 it's a mountain to climb. Same for PvZ. In a sense, Protoss is the only race who has to play against a ticking bomb. So if they dont take enough advantage until the late game, the chance for them to lose just keep increasing. I think this partly explains their inferiority at the top level.
Protoss have certain advantages to compensate for their disadvantages. They have greater mobility in PvT and a more robust cluster in PvZ. These advantages can be utilized in various ways and they also make for interesting asymmetric battles. In PvZ late game there's a race for resources happening that's not immediately obvious: for protoss, while trying to defeat zerg head on, they have an added goal that is to reduce zerg's access to fresh bases when only few are left on the map. If protoss can hold on to one last mining base and survive, they have a great chance of winning the game, sometimes even if zerg still has two mining bases. This is because, with compressed armies, and especially on narrow space, protoss tends to have the advantage (see protoss advantage of a robust clustered army). Due to this fact, zerg is pressured into continuously denying protoss expansions. Zerg must attack from many angles and force the protoss army to keep moving around - which is disadvantageous for protoss. If for example the map is split in half and both players keep all of their bases intact, then protoss is almost certainly going to win the game in the long run because they can have almost unlimited psi storms. In PvT late game something very similar as in PvZ is going on, with protoss kind of playing the role of zerg and terran kind of playing the role of protoss (that is unless protoss goes for carriers, which have their own type of mobility advantage but are not as fast-moving compared to zealots and dragoons).
Protoss isn't necessarily "inferior" at the top levels. I think protoss players need to study Bisu for PvZ and Snow/Best/Stork for PvT. There's a lot yet to be uncovered.
Protoss suffers from an intrinsic gameplay problem that can never get fixed by strategy development, that their maxed out army is the weakest among 3 races, especially against Terran (not talking about unrealistic situations like 200 carriers).
I completely disagree. Carriers + arbiters + HT is the strongest army in PvT, and is practical to get to if you did well and got an advantage in the midgame.
In PvZ, I have seen lategame armies of only reavers, archons, and HT, which are strong af, especially if you recall them. But even if you don't they're great. I always went for this when I was ahead in PvZ and it got me to A+ on ICCup as Protoss
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/oghlty5.png)
