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On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. Surely it's an advantage to Action but Bonyth stabilises, and for the entire midgame he always leads by ~30 supplies and ~10 workers, while also gets his third in time. Surely that's not an unwinable position.
On the other hand, I can only think of the only reason for Action to not go into any of the lurker, muta or defiler tech is he's trying to make the game more challenging for himself. Yes he has 8 hatches but it's not like he can A move the hydras into victory. Without all the army maneuvering, storm dodging, and picking off stray templars/corsairs, it could backfired easily. No disrespect to Bonyth, but the game last more than 20 min because Action chose it that way.
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On April 19 2021 08:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2021 08:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote:
Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak.
Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already. completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well. When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different? However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt.
And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well.
Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean?
Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs.
So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one.
Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta.
bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why 
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On April 19 2021 17:48 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2021 08:59 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2021 08:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote:
Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak.
Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already. completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well. When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different? However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt. And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well. Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean? Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs. So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one. Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta. bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why
I am not extremely interessed in this discussion as well.
You don't see why teenage mechanical monsters, paid to play and accustomed to win tournaments while beating the best players in the world should do better than BW's current top foreign players?
Scarlett didn't just beat Artosis in two different showmatches, she was constantly praised for he skills and her "almost unlimited potential" by some of the best foreign Brood War players.
This debate is someway similar to the old one for which KeSpa players would/should have dominated Wings of Liberty back in the days, with two significant exceptions: first of all, I am not expecting Sc2's top foreigners to dominate globally, just to perform significantly better than BW's ones. Secondly, Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm were games mechanically less challenging than Legacy of the Void so that, I suspect, some of BW's great players couldn't express their potential entirely(I am pretty sure Bisu would have performed way better in LoTV, for example).
I think you overrate, instead, how big the difference between LoTV and BW is and how hard it would be for extremely gifted players to master a new yet essentially similar RTS.
BW's macro could be a problem for some mid tier player, it can't be an obstacle for someone who has 300+ Effective actions per minute; experience surely plays a big role, that's why I am saying that time to adapt would for sure be needed.
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On April 19 2021 22:28 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2021 17:48 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 19 2021 08:59 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2021 08:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote:
Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak.
Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already. completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well. When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different? However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt. And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well. Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean? Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs. So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one. Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta. bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why I am not extremely interessed in this discussion as well. You don't see why teenage mechanical monsters, paid to play and accustomed to win tournaments while beating the best players in the world should do better than BW's current top foreign players? Scarlett didn't just beat Artosis in two different showmatches, she was constantly praised for he skills and her "almost unlimited potential" by some of the best foreign Brood War players. This debate is someway similar to the old one for which KeSpa players would/should have dominated Wings of Liberty back in the days, with two significant exceptions: first of all, I am not expecting Sc2's top foreigners to dominate globally, just to perform significantly better than BW's ones. Secondly, Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm were games mechanically less challenging than Legacy of the Void so that, I suspect, some of BW's great players couldn't express their potential entirely(I am pretty sure Bisu would have performed way better in LoTV, for example). I think you overrate, instead, how big the difference between LoTV and BW is and how hard it would be for extremely gifted players to master a new yet essentially similar RTS. BW's macro could be a problem for some mid tier player, it can't be an obstacle for someone who has 300+ Effective actions per minute; experience surely plays a big role, that's why I am saying that time to adapt would for sure be needed.
1. No one has 300 EAPM. Not even Korean Pros. You're really exposing how little you understand with this one.
2. Many of the foreign players who found success in SC2 weren't able to make much of an impact in the BW scene, similar to some of the most successful SC2 Korean players, though admittedly this is from years ago. Some, like Rain, Soulkey, Jaedong, Flash, etc. are obviously successful in both games.
3. The ability to go from BW to SC2 to BW should not be a surprise to anyone.
4. Scarlett beating Artosis isn't surprising nor is it really an achievement. Artosis loses to no-name players on a daily basis. Praise in that context should be kept contextually relevant. Even if you say top foreigners were praising her skill after beating Artosis, I strongly doubt they were praising it in the "if she had a few more weeks she would beat Bonyth" way and definitely not in the "she could be competitive with Korean pros" way. Thus, highly irrelevant.
5. You shared your opinion, which is just that - an unsubstantiated, and in your case, a heavily bias-driven one - why you try to argue about it like it is anything more than conjecture and is something you can actually prove to someone is beyond me. Why don't you start a blog instead of invading the BW section with the same biased drivel you spew in the SC2 section, wherever a European player is mentioned, etc.? We get it, you are a huge fanboy of Serral and other European players, great. You can basically just post "I am here yet again to tell you why Serral is the greatest player of all time in any game," and save us all the time while adding as much to the discourse. Is this why you're here btw? Did people stop reading your posts in the SC2 forum because they are invariably always talking and pointing towards the same thing, year in, year out?
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If all people played golf in one country you'd have a higher concentrations of elite players there too. Broodwar is so widely embraced in Korean culture that even old women know how the game is played. The foreign scene is comprised of mostly people playing it out of love for the game with very little incentive nor financial backing by any entity. I think that's where the skill gap lies more than anything. It has nothing to do with belonging to a certain ethnicity.
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I remember eOnzerg mentioning that he was surprised how well Scarlett played brood war while he stayed in the same house in Korea. This was... 2018? I figure that Scarlett has played a fair amount of brood war over the years. I love how everyone think that she just picked up the game and got good over night.
And everyone knows that TY was pro back in the day. He has probably played more than any non-Korean.
The secret to being good is hard work and dedication. Not even FlaSh got it easy - listen to Jaedong! (however most non-Koreans never even get the opportunity to work hard due to the small pool of active players in certain regions).
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On April 19 2021 23:14 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2021 22:28 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2021 17:48 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 19 2021 08:59 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2021 08:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote:
Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak.
Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already. completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well. When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different? However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt. And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well. Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean? Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs. So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one. Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta. bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why I am not extremely interessed in this discussion as well. You don't see why teenage mechanical monsters, paid to play and accustomed to win tournaments while beating the best players in the world should do better than BW's current top foreign players? Scarlett didn't just beat Artosis in two different showmatches, she was constantly praised for he skills and her "almost unlimited potential" by some of the best foreign Brood War players. This debate is someway similar to the old one for which KeSpa players would/should have dominated Wings of Liberty back in the days, with two significant exceptions: first of all, I am not expecting Sc2's top foreigners to dominate globally, just to perform significantly better than BW's ones. Secondly, Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm were games mechanically less challenging than Legacy of the Void so that, I suspect, some of BW's great players couldn't express their potential entirely(I am pretty sure Bisu would have performed way better in LoTV, for example). I think you overrate, instead, how big the difference between LoTV and BW is and how hard it would be for extremely gifted players to master a new yet essentially similar RTS. BW's macro could be a problem for some mid tier player, it can't be an obstacle for someone who has 300+ Effective actions per minute; experience surely plays a big role, that's why I am saying that time to adapt would for sure be needed. 1. No one has 300 EAPM. Not even Korean Pros. You're really exposing how little you understand with this one. 2. Many of the foreign players who found success in SC2 weren't able to make much of an impact in the BW scene, similar to some of the most successful SC2 Korean players, though admittedly this is from years ago. Some, like Rain, Soulkey, Jaedong, Flash, etc. are obviously successful in both games. 3. The ability to go from BW to SC2 to BW should not be a surprise to anyone. 4. Scarlett beating Artosis isn't surprising nor is it really an achievement. Artosis loses to no-name players on a daily basis. Praise in that context should be kept contextually relevant. Even if you say top foreigners were praising her skill after beating Artosis, I strongly doubt they were praising it in the "if she had a few more weeks she would beat Bonyth" way and definitely not in the "she could be competitive with Korean pros" way. Thus, highly irrelevant. 5. You shared your opinion, which is just that - an unsubstantiated, and in your case, a heavily bias-driven one - why you try to argue about it like it is anything more than conjecture and is something you can actually prove to someone is beyond me. Why don't you start a blog instead of invading the BW section with the same biased drivel you spew in the SC2 section, wherever a European player is mentioned, etc.? We get it, you are a huge fanboy of Serral and other European players, great. You can basically just post "I am here yet again to tell you why Serral is the greatest player of all time in any game," and save us all the time while adding as much to the discourse. Is this why you're here btw? Did people stop reading your posts in the SC2 forum because they are invariably always talking and pointing towards the same thing, year in, year out?
1-That's simply false, there are players in Sc2 who have 300+ eapm. There are replays, everyone could easily verify that.
2-The current generation of Sc2's foreign players find no equal in the previous ones.
4-Artosis, at his best, is S rank; he loses to unnamed B Protoss players daily because he's unable to deal with anything that isn't a standard macro play and Scarlett totally destroyed him in macro games.
This alone doesn't mean anything, the praises were real tho; how significant those praises were is a question that should be asked to those who made them, someone from Scarlett's fanclub should have no problem identifying who said that(I believe it was Gypsy but I could easily be wrong).
5-The immense bias, here, is yours. Don't put in my mouth things I have never said and don't pretend you understand anything of what I am doing and why.
There were many comments questioning the sense of this Korea vs The World event and stating how immensely inferior foreign BW players are; I said that it would have been more interesting if we had young mechanical and iron willed foreigners(like the ones who currently play Sc2) instead of the good amateurs in their late twenties(or older) that are effectively playing the game right now. Assuming anything more from my words the way you are doing is just senseless blabbering.
Criticizing this event is pointless, BW's foreigners can't be expected to perform much better than they are doing.
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On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
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United States42691 Posts
On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. Surely it's an advantage to Action but Bonyth stabilises, and for the entire midgame he always leads by ~30 supplies and ~10 workers, while also gets his third in time. Surely that's not an unwinable position.
Vs a player of comparable skill getting sunken rushed like that on RB is an unwinnable position. Vs a player of superior skill more so. Action cheesed Bonyth. I'm not going to assert that Bonyth would beat Action straight up but I will assert that the game we saw is proof of nothing but that Bonyth needs to pay attention to those overmind cocoons.
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On April 20 2021 01:02 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. ...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit.. What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
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On April 20 2021 08:28 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 01:02 oxKnu wrote:On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. ...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit.. What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best? You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences. Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't. I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
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On April 20 2021 08:33 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 08:28 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 01:02 oxKnu wrote:On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. ...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit.. What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best? You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences. Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't. I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic. Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ. Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game. The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
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On April 20 2021 08:44 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 08:33 oxKnu wrote:On April 20 2021 08:28 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 01:02 oxKnu wrote:On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. ...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit.. What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best? You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences. Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't. I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic. Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ. Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game. The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW. Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion. I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did. Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that. Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
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Bonyth lost a forge gate and pylon in the early game
How much more evidence do you need?
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On April 20 2021 09:05 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 08:44 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 08:33 oxKnu wrote:On April 20 2021 08:28 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 01:02 oxKnu wrote:On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. ...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit.. What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best? You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences. Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't. I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic. Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ. Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game. The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW. Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion. I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did. Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that. Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences? Yeah you got it now. It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
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On April 20 2021 09:06 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Bonyth lost a forge gate and pylon in the early game
How much more evidence do you need?
Wasn't talking about the evidences to prove Bonyth was behind in that game. Of course he was behind after the sunken rush, no one is debating that.
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United States42691 Posts
On April 20 2021 09:14 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 09:05 oxKnu wrote:On April 20 2021 08:44 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 08:33 oxKnu wrote:On April 20 2021 08:28 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 01:02 oxKnu wrote:On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. ...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit.. What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best? You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences. Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't. I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic. Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ. Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game. The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW. Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion. I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did. Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that. Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences? Yeah you got it now. It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead.. You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol. You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
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On April 20 2021 09:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2021 09:14 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 09:05 oxKnu wrote:On April 20 2021 08:44 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 08:33 oxKnu wrote:On April 20 2021 08:28 TMNT wrote:On April 20 2021 01:02 oxKnu wrote:On April 19 2021 10:34 TMNT wrote:On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote:On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote:
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that. Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game? I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. ...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit.. What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best? You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences. Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't. I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic. Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ. Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game. The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW. Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion. I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did. Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that. Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences? Yeah you got it now. It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead.. You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol. You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless... You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
I made multiple points. You and the other guy just conveniently ignored them. It's even reflected in that you and him didn't quote my full post but just a part of it.
I agree the game was lost after that sunken rush (hence I said in one of my previous posts that I thought the game would have ended sooner), but not in the manner that we saw. In fact I didn't respond to your previous post about the unwinnable position because in the end it's not something clearly quantifiable so we can agree to disagree.
But now you've made the bolder claim that "Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better", then a certain poster in this thread may feel inclined to remind you that "The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game".
Now back to topic, if you are unclear, here's my two main points:
- At the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. And Bonyth had that lead until the 15 minute mark. Please tell me that there has been no Protoss players in the history of BW who could win the game from there.
- Action never made any other fighting units apart from Hydra (and a few lings at the beginning) and he won a 20-minute game just by navigating them effectively (it's not like he did a hydra bust by A click at the natural of a regular map). He probably doesn't need defiler in that game but in a normal game at least we'd see some lurkers or mutas to make his game easier. Why? If it were Bisu at the other end would he dare to play out like that? Or show me a foreigner Zerg who has the audacity to do that and pull it off. A few great storms and the game can turn. So if that doesn't show the gap in skill I don't know what is.
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EPT
