In the Show Match method, 9 foreign All-Star members play a Bo1 game with Korean gamers every week. (Bo1 x9) Even if the score is 8:0, the last game will be played.
Showmatch will be streamed every Saturday for 4 weeks at 10:00AM KST *April 10, 3:00AM CEST April 9, 9:00PM EST , 8:00PM PET
This showmatch is only streamed on AfreecaTV, and is only cast in English and Spanish.
Great to see the foreigners vs koreans series! Too bad it's in the middle of the night for europe, but i guess that's how it is. Are those games played one by one in 1 day? Or they have to play those in like 1 week?
Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
On April 10 2021 22:05 martoto088 wrote: Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
On April 10 2021 22:05 martoto088 wrote: Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
Don't be so harsh It is better for training to play with someone better
On April 10 2021 22:05 martoto088 wrote: Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
Foreigners beat top korean pros on ladder all the time. Maybe it goes 95% korean pro 5% foreigner but it happens.
On April 10 2021 22:05 martoto088 wrote: Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
Foreigners beat top korean pros on ladder all the time. Maybe it goes 95% korean pro 5% foreigner but it happens.
Yeah, sure When koreans use only SCV-s, only sunkens, only ghousts, only nukes, probe drops, playing only with legs, blind folded... I've seen these games :D
Don't get me wrong, it is fun foreigners vs pro's, but it is a freak show. It is also funny monkey playing ping pong, it's the same
On April 10 2021 22:05 martoto088 wrote: Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
On April 10 2021 22:05 martoto088 wrote: Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
Foreigners beat top korean pros on ladder all the time. Maybe it goes 95% korean pro 5% foreigner but it happens.
Yeah, sure When koreans use only SCV-s, only sunkens, only ghousts, only nukes, probe drops, playing only with legs, blind folded... I've seen these games :D
Don't get me wrong, it is fun foreigners vs pro's, but it is a freak show. It is also funny monkey playing ping pong, it's the same
You're being very rude in addition to being completely wrong. Dewalt just went 4-5 vs Scan in a series and should have won it. Every top foreigner could name a dozen progamers they've met and beaten on ladder. It's just the nature of the game, a worse player will beat a better player sometimes.
This event is so fun for me. I really like similar settings, where it's more relaxed and gamers play for win of course but there's less stress than the high profile games in KCM and ASL, Ultimate battle. I'm so glad there's so much high quality content nowadays, in fact it's so much I can't watch it all. And let's not feed the hater guy, as usual - best to just ignore him. I can maybe advice him to keep his toxic opinion and if he's so annoyed by the event, he can just skip it, I see no point in him exercising his filthy mouth.
On April 10 2021 22:05 martoto088 wrote: Foreign All-Stars are joke. There is no point of these matches. Foreigners better stick to UMS or tower defense or whatever. They have better chance beating Khabib Nurmagomedov on MMA than beating korean top pros on BW.
These games reminds me of these freak fights between midgets and WWE fighters, it is a shame.
Foreigners beat top korean pros on ladder all the time. Maybe it goes 95% korean pro 5% foreigner but it happens.
Yeah, sure When koreans use only SCV-s, only sunkens, only ghousts, only nukes, probe drops, playing only with legs, blind folded... I've seen these games :D
Don't get me wrong, it is fun foreigners vs pro's, but it is a freak show. It is also funny monkey playing ping pong, it's the same
WCG 2009 Semi-Final Stork vs Kolll game 2, perfect example of the skill gap. But like you say, still entertaining to watch.Not often you see scouts used.
Something newer? Remastered era.Larva vs Chinese user Legend where Larva was using his foot.You knew who would win before the game started but Larva made it entertaining.
martoto might have worded it rudely, but he is correct. The skill gap is too big. When Korean pros play seriousy they crush foreigners. Bisu killed some very good Chinese Zergs with Scouts on his stream many times.
Hi guys! A new video has been uploaded to StarCastTV! Today's video is a showmatch series of Foreign All-Star vs Rush and Sorry! Cast by Scan! Thank you for watching
If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and like! And please write comments for Caster who is trying hard for Starcraft fans!
Based on the stats in the other topic, Dewalt can take 1 game off Snow/Action every 6 games, so maybe next time then. I dont mind the skill gap, its still refreshing to watch these kind of events.
On April 12 2021 08:41 Cruiser0929 wrote: Hi guys! A new video has been uploaded to StarCastTV! Today's video is a showmatch series of Foreign All-Star vs Rush and Sorry! Cast by Scan! Thank you for watching
If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and like! And please write comments for Caster who is trying hard for Starcraft fans!
The skill gap is as high as expected, it is much higher than in like 2008 and 2009. Still, these games are fun to watch and it is interesting to see how programers exploit the weaknesses of "just very good" players.
On April 13 2021 01:07 MapleLeafSirup wrote: The skill gap is as high as expected, it is much higher than in like 2008 and 2009. Still, these games are fun to watch and it is interesting to see how programers exploit the weaknesses of "just very good" players.
I don't think it is. You think at WCG those games the progamers lost was due to them just not being able to handle the players they played. The one I think about most is Silent Control vs Fisheye. Probably if they played 100 games, Fisheye would've won like 5. He just played the better series those games and took advantage of the cheesy play foreigners are way more used to.
It's in a same way Dewalt got a decent result vs Scan now. Of course, Scan is not up there with the very top Koreans, but I feel cheese is just more common in the foreigner scene and they thus know how to deal with it better (unless really high level, you could argue at that time if Silent Control was).
Anyway, I don't feel it's that much different than before. In a normal, standard game there's probably no foreigner that will take a game off of a Korean pro. That's gonna be really hard. I feel foreigners were closer in days of the past (think of the Nony and Ret days). Right now I'd say that's pretty unlikely.
But yea, difference has always been big I"d say, tournament games (like back in 2008-2009) don't mean a lot. Those were series that were based mostly on cheese. In the end I feel that was and still is the only way they can win. Nothing wrong with that either, but it's not like foreigners were ever able to play straight up games with top Koreans (afaik, but feel free to prove me wrong).
Dewalt is good enough that if he plays a gamble build (like he did on Reverse Temple) and gets a few lucky advantages (cross map, last scouted, Scan opting for a weaker macro opening than Dewalt’s) he can absolutely close it out. Not every game starts 50/50, due to smart builds and some good luck Dewalt was effectively playing with bonus minerals and the skill gap is close enough that top foreigners can win from there.
On April 13 2021 03:07 KwarK wrote: Dewalt is good enough that if he plays a gamble build (like he did on Reverse Temple) and gets a few lucky advantages (cross map, last scouted, Scan opting for a weaker macro opening than Dewalt’s) he can absolutely close it out. Not every game starts 50/50, due to smart builds and some good luck Dewalt was effectively playing with bonus minerals and the skill gap is close enough that top foreigners can win from there.
I have to see more games for that, I feel he pounced on his advantage pretty soon. If he cannot do that, I'll still have to see how he handles a longer game in which the opponent comes back.
I am also not trying to shittalk on Dewalt. I know it's a damn tough job to take on these Korean juggernauts, but I feel in the games that I did see (the Dewalt vs Scan series) it was a combination of Dewalt doing cheesy (or not very normal) builds, while Scan was also reacting to them rather poorly.
Anyway, Don't wanna put all attention to that, Dewalt is a great player and I am not trying to shit talk him at all (you might get that idea when reading my posts). I just hink the gap is bigger than you might get the idea from if just looked at the results from for instance those games vs Scan (and then to think Dewalt should've actually won that series).
I don't feel the gap now is closer than it has been in the past. I still feel in the times as mentioned before (Nony/Ret) those were the closest to Korean level as anyone has ever been (and it was still a huge gap). I hope any of the guys nowadays can make it though and if any foreigner would qualify for ASL, that would instantly make them the best so far I'd say. But that's not an easy task and I doubt it'll happen.
The skill gap is still so big, it never once felt like a foreigner had an advantage at any point in the first series... when Bonyth and Dewalt get crushed so hard, I'm not expecting foreigners to win any games in this series.
That being said, where was Eonzerg? I'd like to think he would have an ok chance of taking a win, maybe against Snow/another Protoss player
Rush and Sorry are both top 10 players right now. Arguably higher.
There's a big gap even between top 10 and top 30 (30th doesn't even qualify for ASL ro24).
No need to overreact to a completely expected result.
If Flash stomped these 9 players no one would bat an eye. Rush and Sorry are almost as good as Flash (at least at this very moment in time). That's how good they are right now!
They just haven't had major league results so people who aren't following the Korean scene as closely assume they are "lower tier pros".
I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):
But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.
Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )
On April 13 2021 16:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):
But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.
Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )
"Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. "
Where can I find some more details about this event? ^
Just watched the series and you can see the superior game understanding by Sorry/Rush, especially in the TvT games. Like how Sorry used 2 wraiths vs Gypsy on Benzene to transition into a macro game and how he used pure Marines after scouting no vulture to stall long enough to delay Terrors tank push. Absolutely brilliant!
Unfortunately foreigners still have a long way to go in terms of both mechanics and game understanding.
On April 13 2021 16:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):
But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.
Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )
That's actually pretty impressive based on just ladder stats. If both of them can get some decent coaching from like Bisu/Stork and consistent practice games vs other progamers I could see them taking games more consistently off them.
On April 13 2021 16:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):
But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.
Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )
"Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. "
Where can I find some more details about this event? ^
I wouldnt be that optimistic about those stats. As far as I know he was playing a minimum of 9 games vs the same player.So after 5-0 (I suspect is when progamer secured money ?)They proly started to mix more builds and he could sneak some victories.
That said I never seen such hate before In a foreigner vs korean progamer.We are talking about best progamers. Sorry and Rush will make Miso 815 YSC or Ample looks really bad too.
On April 13 2021 16:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):
But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.
Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )
"Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. "
Where can I find some more details about this event? ^
It's impressive to beat any pro, of course. However, when I see most pro gamers stream ladder they usually play very relaxed, not overly competitive, if any. Either way it's a big difference to how they play in competition.
Whenever they face a 16TR opponent it's usually not that commited tbh.
One thing that I particularly noticed when Snow played vs. Scan in ASL is how calm he is and the level that he is controlling the game. Of course he will lose some off games but I feel like most pros only need the tiniest advantage to win any game. Non-pros very seldom bring that advantage back and are able to win.
@Scan thank you so much for the awesome casting, both in ASL and All-star... I loved the ASL games and I can't wait to see you crack that RO16. The sSak game was so close, amazing job to catch up and almost reverse the advantage several times.
I think it all comes down to get that dream opening, either by some early aggression or a build order advantage and then ride on that to the perfect timing attack to end the game.
Perhaps against Action? Zerg can get into real nightmares openings, losing drones to a 8RAX or sneak by some vultures in ZvT. Dewalt and Bonyth can for sure micro those zealots really well and perhaps get a few drone kills and end it with a sharp 7+ minute timing, like a corsair/+1 zealot.
Snow will be really hard to beat though. That would probably, again rely on a zerg having a great opening: perhaps Trutacz can get a few lings in to harass and follow up with a perfect hydra bust.
On April 13 2021 21:48 ...onmYwaY wrote: It's impressive to beat any pro, of course. However, when I see most pro gamers stream ladder they usually play very relaxed, not overly competitive, if any. Either way it's a big difference to how they play in competition.
Whenever they face a 16TR opponent it's usually not that commited tbh.
One thing that I particularly noticed when Snow played vs. Scan in ASL is how calm he is and the level that he is controlling the game. Of course he will lose some off games but I feel like most pros only need the tiniest advantage to win any game. Non-pros very seldom bring that advantage back and are able to win.
Dewalt is TR24 to Korea by the way. But you’re right that there is a world of difference between casual ladder play and tournament play. That’s true for both foreigners and Koreans but the difference is larger for Koreans due to their professional status. When they practice for a specific game they do so in a more effective way with better practice partners and other resources. BSL Bonyth > regular Bonyth but ASL Flash >>>> regular Flash.
I think this event is awesome, and don't understand why so many people seem to complain about the skill gap. As a casual viewer, it's hard to pick out huge differences between BSL matches and ASL matches (aside from occasional macro differences), so watching matches like these are quite interesting to me.
As other people have said, it's worth noting that Sorry and Rush (especially Rush) are ludicrously strong right now and i'd honestly favor rush against most Korean protosses, let alone Dewalt or Bonyth.
On April 14 2021 03:14 angry_maia wrote: I think this event is awesome, and don't understand why so many people seem to complain about the skill gap. As a casual viewer, it's hard to pick out huge differences between BSL matches and ASL matches (aside from occasional macro differences), so watching matches like these are quite interesting to me.
As other people have said, it's worth noting that Sorry and Rush (especially Rush) are ludicrously strong right now and i'd honestly favor rush against most Korean protosses, let alone Dewalt or Bonyth.
Looking forward to other matches in this series!
I'm a pretty casual viewer as well, but the most obvious thing that sticks out to me is unit control. In BSL matches, I see way more small unit control mistakes, such as groups of Mutas accidentally flying over Marines, units splitting up and fighting single file, slightly late Sieges, small groups of idle units etc.
I think the more advanced viewer would be able to tell things like timings and strategy differences.
I very much appreciate this game series. Even though it's not competition it would make sense if the Pros at least viewed this as a semi-important exhibition and put in the effort to display their real skill.
This is the beauty of StarCraft:Brood War, the hardest game on the planet. The skill ceiling is so freaking high that you can keep playing for 20+ years and still improve day by day - amazing. There is so much to admire in these players - all of them.
I second those people who say it's awesome to see matches like this. I think it's super interesting, and I don't mind it being one-sided. It's fun to see our heroes go up against the very best of the best, a big thank you to them for playing against these monster opponents, a big thank you to the pros showing up, and of course, most of all, thank you for organizing and casting this! It was amazing and it really brightened my day. Brood War is amazing!
On April 16 2021 15:54 Sonic_md wrote: hello today will be matches vs Action or no?
thx
It shoulda be today, but they changed date last minute... Do you think is because the foreigners are to ashamed of how bad they are and do not want to participate anymore? Cut the damage?
On April 16 2021 15:54 Sonic_md wrote: hello today will be matches vs Action or no?
thx
It shoulda be today, but they changed date last minute... Do you think is because the foreigners are to ashamed of how bad they are and do not want to participate anymore? Cut the damage?
This is a really stupid question. Players love playing progamers, even if they lose. It’s like passionate golfers having a chance to play golf with Tiger Woods, nobody cares if they lose, they’re just happy to have that experience because they’re fans of the game.
Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak. Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already.
On April 17 2021 19:13 dsaqwe.. wrote: fkn crazy.. i was sure that foreigners will take at least 1,2 games per series.. its really hard to win 9 games in a row no matter skill gap...
Sure why?
All of these players are currently in Top8 (maybe 10) active players playing in BW.
By my estimation there is no foreigner that could be seen as Top30 in the world right now.
Heartbreak to see the All Stars take that loss but still a very entertaining series. I can’t formulate how impressive the Brood War Pro Gamers are. Yes, they get so much more quality practice but still... All Star team combined have put ALOT of hours in this game too, years of practice and are “Pros” in their own right compared to most. They would 9-0 a huge majority of other foreigners. So what Action did, even as a huge favorite in all matches are very impressive.
Hi guys! A new video has been uploaded to StarCastTV! Today's video is a showmatch series of Foreign All-Star vs Action! Cast by Scan and Nyoken! Thank you for watching
If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and like! And please write comments for Caster who is trying hard for Starcraft fans!
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
On April 18 2021 14:19 KwarK wrote: Thank you for hosting this. Oya’s opening was especially good. It sucked that + Show Spoiler +
Bonyth got cheesed, I’d have liked to have seen a proper game
.
good opening let down by poor execution during the push, lost all the high tech units to mutas. action even revealed the mutas early, would it hurt to make 1 archon or DA?
This is such an awesome event, I'm watching every game with anticipation of an underdog taking a sweet victory. Action's approach was so cool - "They're gonna try to cheese me, but I'm not gonna let'em." I wonder what would have happened if someone played that game and went for the greediest builds against a defensive Action... It's not a guaranteed win by any means, but to me it seems like the best chance.
I love to see the obliteration personally. I feel like Action was just trolling in the last game, only using hydras just to make it harder for himself. The skill gap truly is immense.
On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote: Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak. Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already.
completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW
if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are
oh and if anything I found Bonyth vs Action game extremely close considering what kind of damage action did to bonyth and I am somewhat sad it happened like that because if behind that much bonyth did so decent I rlly wonder how close it could get if the game starts better/normal for him
On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote: Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak. Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already.
completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW
if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are
So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well.
When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different?
However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt.
only serral and reynor i pretty sure of are very likely to succeed in BW (aka reach expro level) since they don't just have strong mechanics but also display great decision making and very positive (champion) mentality. the rest of the sc2 foreigners aren't really consistent enough
This has been a really entertaining series. Seeing how dominant these players can be really brings home just got high the level of competition is in Korea—Action hasn't made it past the group stages of ASL for a couple seasons but completely crushed it here.
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. Surely it's an advantage to Action but Bonyth stabilises, and for the entire midgame he always leads by ~30 supplies and ~10 workers, while also gets his third in time. Surely that's not an unwinable position.
On the other hand, I can only think of the only reason for Action to not go into any of the lurker, muta or defiler tech is he's trying to make the game more challenging for himself. Yes he has 8 hatches but it's not like he can A move the hydras into victory. Without all the army maneuvering, storm dodging, and picking off stray templars/corsairs, it could backfired easily. No disrespect to Bonyth, but the game last more than 20 min because Action chose it that way.
On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote: Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak. Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already.
completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW
if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are
So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well.
When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different?
However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt.
And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well.
Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean?
Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs.
So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one.
Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta.
bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why
On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote: Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak. Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already.
completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW
if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are
So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well.
When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different?
However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt.
And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well.
Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean?
Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs.
So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one.
Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta.
bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why
I am not extremely interessed in this discussion as well. You don't see why teenage mechanical monsters, paid to play and accustomed to win tournaments while beating the best players in the world should do better than BW's current top foreign players? Scarlett didn't just beat Artosis in two different showmatches, she was constantly praised for he skills and her "almost unlimited potential" by some of the best foreign Brood War players.
This debate is someway similar to the old one for which KeSpa players would/should have dominated Wings of Liberty back in the days, with two significant exceptions: first of all, I am not expecting Sc2's top foreigners to dominate globally, just to perform significantly better than BW's ones. Secondly, Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm were games mechanically less challenging than Legacy of the Void so that, I suspect, some of BW's great players couldn't express their potential entirely(I am pretty sure Bisu would have performed way better in LoTV, for example).
I think you overrate, instead, how big the difference between LoTV and BW is and how hard it would be for extremely gifted players to master a new yet essentially similar RTS. BW's macro could be a problem for some mid tier player, it can't be an obstacle for someone who has 300+ Effective actions per minute; experience surely plays a big role, that's why I am saying that time to adapt would for sure be needed.
On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote: Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak. Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already.
completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW
if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are
So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well.
When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different?
However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt.
And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well.
Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean?
Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs.
So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one.
Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta.
bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why
I am not extremely interessed in this discussion as well. You don't see why teenage mechanical monsters, paid to play and accustomed to win tournaments while beating the best players in the world should do better than BW's current top foreign players? Scarlett didn't just beat Artosis in two different showmatches, she was constantly praised for he skills and her "almost unlimited potential" by some of the best foreign Brood War players.
This debate is someway similar to the old one for which KeSpa players would/should have dominated Wings of Liberty back in the days, with two significant exceptions: first of all, I am not expecting Sc2's top foreigners to dominate globally, just to perform significantly better than BW's ones. Secondly, Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm were games mechanically less challenging than Legacy of the Void so that, I suspect, some of BW's great players couldn't express their potential entirely(I am pretty sure Bisu would have performed way better in LoTV, for example).
I think you overrate, instead, how big the difference between LoTV and BW is and how hard it would be for extremely gifted players to master a new yet essentially similar RTS. BW's macro could be a problem for some mid tier player, it can't be an obstacle for someone who has 300+ Effective actions per minute; experience surely plays a big role, that's why I am saying that time to adapt would for sure be needed.
1. No one has 300 EAPM. Not even Korean Pros. You're really exposing how little you understand with this one. 2. Many of the foreign players who found success in SC2 weren't able to make much of an impact in the BW scene, similar to some of the most successful SC2 Korean players, though admittedly this is from years ago. Some, like Rain, Soulkey, Jaedong, Flash, etc. are obviously successful in both games. 3. The ability to go from BW to SC2 to BW should not be a surprise to anyone. 4. Scarlett beating Artosis isn't surprising nor is it really an achievement. Artosis loses to no-name players on a daily basis. Praise in that context should be kept contextually relevant. Even if you say top foreigners were praising her skill after beating Artosis, I strongly doubt they were praising it in the "if she had a few more weeks she would beat Bonyth" way and definitely not in the "she could be competitive with Korean pros" way. Thus, highly irrelevant. 5. You shared your opinion, which is just that - an unsubstantiated, and in your case, a heavily bias-driven one - why you try to argue about it like it is anything more than conjecture and is something you can actually prove to someone is beyond me. Why don't you start a blog instead of invading the BW section with the same biased drivel you spew in the SC2 section, wherever a European player is mentioned, etc.? We get it, you are a huge fanboy of Serral and other European players, great. You can basically just post "I am here yet again to tell you why Serral is the greatest player of all time in any game," and save us all the time while adding as much to the discourse. Is this why you're here btw? Did people stop reading your posts in the SC2 forum because they are invariably always talking and pointing towards the same thing, year in, year out?
If all people played golf in one country you'd have a higher concentrations of elite players there too. Broodwar is so widely embraced in Korean culture that even old women know how the game is played. The foreign scene is comprised of mostly people playing it out of love for the game with very little incentive nor financial backing by any entity. I think that's where the skill gap lies more than anything. It has nothing to do with belonging to a certain ethnicity.
I remember eOnzerg mentioning that he was surprised how well Scarlett played brood war while he stayed in the same house in Korea. This was... 2018? I figure that Scarlett has played a fair amount of brood war over the years. I love how everyone think that she just picked up the game and got good over night.
And everyone knows that TY was pro back in the day. He has probably played more than any non-Korean.
The secret to being good is hard work and dedication. Not even FlaSh got it easy - listen to Jaedong! (however most non-Koreans never even get the opportunity to work hard due to the small pool of active players in certain regions).
On April 17 2021 20:27 Xain0n wrote: Koreans in Brood War are gods but, no offense meant, foreign scene is relatively weak. Scarlett currently is not one of the top foreigners in Sc2 and it looked like she could have become one of the best in BW with more practice.
If some of the young european prodigies would have chosen to play Brood War we would have had more interesting "Korea vs the world" events, even if this one is for sure entertaining already.
completely theoretical and guesswork.. regarding SC2 players excelling in SCBW
if anything at all it is rather unlikely than likely given how different the games are
So theoretical that we have Scarlett's example; also, there was TY aka BaBy returning to BW for a teamleague after years spent playing Sc2, he performed pretty well.
When you have 600 apm and godlike multitasking, being unable to select more than a certain number of units couldn't possibly stop you. The games are different but not as much as you suggest, the inverse process(BW pro gamers to Sc2) basically worked well even if the same players didn't dominate both games(with the exception of Rain), why would this be that different?
However, the main point here was that the foreign scene in BW can't compete at all with the koreans; I am absolutely positive that Sc2's foreign scene has fundamentally stronger RTS players, which would do better for sure if they played Brood War and were given the time to adapt.
And I completely disagree with your statement. I dont see any arguments for hat as well.
Correct me if Im wrong but BaBy is a bad example as he is not a foreigner but a korean?
Scarletts example? I do not really get. Beating Artosis in a show match says very very little. Againa I think you underrate how much time and understanding and muscle memory/theory/experience players like Bonyth, trutacz, dewalt, ret, draco, koget, terror, ect.. have compared to foreign SC2 champs.
So Im not really immensly interested in keeping on this discussion but if you are you should bringt arguments for your theory. I didnt really read a single one.
Als basically you already proved yourself kinda wrong: The inverse working (BW -> SC2) is mainly happening because SC2 is basically less about experience and macro and more about micro and meta.
bottom line: we will never find out what the best foreign SC2 players could have achieved in SC BW but you make it sound like they would almost certainly have been better than (kinda inactive foreigners like bonyth, koget, ect..) which I simply do not see a single reason why
I am not extremely interessed in this discussion as well. You don't see why teenage mechanical monsters, paid to play and accustomed to win tournaments while beating the best players in the world should do better than BW's current top foreign players? Scarlett didn't just beat Artosis in two different showmatches, she was constantly praised for he skills and her "almost unlimited potential" by some of the best foreign Brood War players.
This debate is someway similar to the old one for which KeSpa players would/should have dominated Wings of Liberty back in the days, with two significant exceptions: first of all, I am not expecting Sc2's top foreigners to dominate globally, just to perform significantly better than BW's ones. Secondly, Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm were games mechanically less challenging than Legacy of the Void so that, I suspect, some of BW's great players couldn't express their potential entirely(I am pretty sure Bisu would have performed way better in LoTV, for example).
I think you overrate, instead, how big the difference between LoTV and BW is and how hard it would be for extremely gifted players to master a new yet essentially similar RTS. BW's macro could be a problem for some mid tier player, it can't be an obstacle for someone who has 300+ Effective actions per minute; experience surely plays a big role, that's why I am saying that time to adapt would for sure be needed.
1. No one has 300 EAPM. Not even Korean Pros. You're really exposing how little you understand with this one. 2. Many of the foreign players who found success in SC2 weren't able to make much of an impact in the BW scene, similar to some of the most successful SC2 Korean players, though admittedly this is from years ago. Some, like Rain, Soulkey, Jaedong, Flash, etc. are obviously successful in both games. 3. The ability to go from BW to SC2 to BW should not be a surprise to anyone. 4. Scarlett beating Artosis isn't surprising nor is it really an achievement. Artosis loses to no-name players on a daily basis. Praise in that context should be kept contextually relevant. Even if you say top foreigners were praising her skill after beating Artosis, I strongly doubt they were praising it in the "if she had a few more weeks she would beat Bonyth" way and definitely not in the "she could be competitive with Korean pros" way. Thus, highly irrelevant. 5. You shared your opinion, which is just that - an unsubstantiated, and in your case, a heavily bias-driven one - why you try to argue about it like it is anything more than conjecture and is something you can actually prove to someone is beyond me. Why don't you start a blog instead of invading the BW section with the same biased drivel you spew in the SC2 section, wherever a European player is mentioned, etc.? We get it, you are a huge fanboy of Serral and other European players, great. You can basically just post "I am here yet again to tell you why Serral is the greatest player of all time in any game," and save us all the time while adding as much to the discourse. Is this why you're here btw? Did people stop reading your posts in the SC2 forum because they are invariably always talking and pointing towards the same thing, year in, year out?
1-That's simply false, there are players in Sc2 who have 300+ eapm. There are replays, everyone could easily verify that.
2-The current generation of Sc2's foreign players find no equal in the previous ones.
4-Artosis, at his best, is S rank; he loses to unnamed B Protoss players daily because he's unable to deal with anything that isn't a standard macro play and Scarlett totally destroyed him in macro games. This alone doesn't mean anything, the praises were real tho; how significant those praises were is a question that should be asked to those who made them, someone from Scarlett's fanclub should have no problem identifying who said that(I believe it was Gypsy but I could easily be wrong).
5-The immense bias, here, is yours. Don't put in my mouth things I have never said and don't pretend you understand anything of what I am doing and why. There were many comments questioning the sense of this Korea vs The World event and stating how immensely inferior foreign BW players are; I said that it would have been more interesting if we had young mechanical and iron willed foreigners(like the ones who currently play Sc2) instead of the good amateurs in their late twenties(or older) that are effectively playing the game right now. Assuming anything more from my words the way you are doing is just senseless blabbering.
Criticizing this event is pointless, BW's foreigners can't be expected to perform much better than they are doing.
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. Surely it's an advantage to Action but Bonyth stabilises, and for the entire midgame he always leads by ~30 supplies and ~10 workers, while also gets his third in time. Surely that's not an unwinable position.
Vs a player of comparable skill getting sunken rushed like that on RB is an unwinnable position. Vs a player of superior skill more so. Action cheesed Bonyth. I'm not going to assert that Bonyth would beat Action straight up but I will assert that the game we saw is proof of nothing but that Bonyth needs to pay attention to those overmind cocoons.
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
On April 17 2021 12:18 TMNT wrote: Last game between Bonyth vs Action really shows the gap. I'm pretty sure Action could have gone Lurker or Hive tech, but he was like "No, I will just use my tier 1 unit, dance around your army, dodge all the storms, deny your expansions and run you to the ground". And he did. Would be insane multitasking controlling like 100 hydras like that.
Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
I made multiple points. You and the other guy just conveniently ignored them. It's even reflected in that you and him didn't quote my full post but just a part of it.
I agree the game was lost after that sunken rush (hence I said in one of my previous posts that I thought the game would have ended sooner), but not in the manner that we saw. In fact I didn't respond to your previous post about the unwinnable position because in the end it's not something clearly quantifiable so we can agree to disagree.
But now you've made the bolder claim that "Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better", then a certain poster in this thread may feel inclined to remind you that "The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game".
Now back to topic, if you are unclear, here's my two main points:
- At the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. And Bonyth had that lead until the 15 minute mark. Please tell me that there has been no Protoss players in the history of BW who could win the game from there.
- Action never made any other fighting units apart from Hydra (and a few lings at the beginning) and he won a 20-minute game just by navigating them effectively (it's not like he did a hydra bust by A click at the natural of a regular map). He probably doesn't need defiler in that game but in a normal game at least we'd see some lurkers or mutas to make his game easier. Why? If it were Bisu at the other end would he dare to play out like that? Or show me a foreigner Zerg who has the audacity to do that and pull it off. A few great storms and the game can turn. So if that doesn't show the gap in skill I don't know what is.
On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote: [quote] Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
I made multiple points. You and the other guy just conveniently ignored them. It's even reflected in that you and him didn't quote my full post but just a part of it.
I agree the game was lost after that sunken rush (hence I said in one of my previous posts that I thought the game would have ended sooner), but not in the manner that we saw. In fact I didn't respond to your previous post about the unwinnable position because in the end it's not something clearly quantifiable so we can agree to disagree.
But now you've made the bolder claim that "Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better", then a certain poster in this thread may feel inclined to remind you that "The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game".
Now back to topic, if you are unclear, here's my two main points:
- At the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. And Bonyth had that lead until the 15 minute mark. Please tell me that there has been no Protoss players in the history of BW who could win the game from there.
- Action never made any other fighting units apart from Hydra (and a few lings at the beginning) and he won a 20-minute game just by navigating them effectively (it's not like he did a hydra bust by A click at the natural of a regular map). He probably doesn't need defiler in that game but in a normal game at least we'd see some lurkers or mutas to make his game easier. Why? If it were Bisu at the other end would he dare to play out like that? Or show me a foreigner Zerg who has the audacity to do that and pull it off. A few great storms and the game can turn. So if that doesn't show the gap in skill I don't know what is.
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
I made multiple points. You and the other guy just conveniently ignored them. It's even reflected in that you and him didn't quote my full post but just a part of it.
I agree the game was lost after that sunken rush (hence I said in one of my previous posts that I thought the game would have ended sooner), but not in the manner that we saw. In fact I didn't respond to your previous post about the unwinnable position because in the end it's not something clearly quantifiable so we can agree to disagree.
But now you've made the bolder claim that "Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better", then a certain poster in this thread may feel inclined to remind you that "The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game".
Now back to topic, if you are unclear, here's my two main points:
- At the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. And Bonyth had that lead until the 15 minute mark. Please tell me that there has been no Protoss players in the history of BW who could win the game from there.
- Action never made any other fighting units apart from Hydra (and a few lings at the beginning) and he won a 20-minute game just by navigating them effectively (it's not like he did a hydra bust by A click at the natural of a regular map). He probably doesn't need defiler in that game but in a normal game at least we'd see some lurkers or mutas to make his game easier. Why? If it were Bisu at the other end would he dare to play out like that? Or show me a foreigner Zerg who has the audacity to do that and pull it off. A few great storms and the game can turn. So if that doesn't show the gap in skill I don't know what is.
I don’t think you know how PvZ works.
I think you can't come up with a valid argument so copping out while pretending you're on the high ground is the obvious choice. I can sympathize with that.
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
I made multiple points. You and the other guy just conveniently ignored them. It's even reflected in that you and him didn't quote my full post but just a part of it.
I agree the game was lost after that sunken rush (hence I said in one of my previous posts that I thought the game would have ended sooner), but not in the manner that we saw. In fact I didn't respond to your previous post about the unwinnable position because in the end it's not something clearly quantifiable so we can agree to disagree.
But now you've made the bolder claim that "Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better", then a certain poster in this thread may feel inclined to remind you that "The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game".
Now back to topic, if you are unclear, here's my two main points:
- At the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. And Bonyth had that lead until the 15 minute mark. Please tell me that there has been no Protoss players in the history of BW who could win the game from there.
- Action never made any other fighting units apart from Hydra (and a few lings at the beginning) and he won a 20-minute game just by navigating them effectively (it's not like he did a hydra bust by A click at the natural of a regular map). He probably doesn't need defiler in that game but in a normal game at least we'd see some lurkers or mutas to make his game easier. Why? If it were Bisu at the other end would he dare to play out like that? Or show me a foreigner Zerg who has the audacity to do that and pull it off. A few great storms and the game can turn. So if that doesn't show the gap in skill I don't know what is.
I don’t think you know how PvZ works.
I think you can't come up with a valid argument so copping out while pretending you're on the high ground is the obvious choice. I can sympathize with that.
Hydra tech is the main tech for Z in that matchup and it’s normal for P to have a higher supply even when behind. You’re describing advantages that aren’t advantages.
zerg is on less drones (vs.probes), hydras only cost 1 supply (in comparision to zealots and dragoons which cost 2), zerg is always behind in supply.
Now tech wise... Bonyth had speed/+1 as well as stargate and templar of archives. Funny that you mention 8:25 since he more or less lost the game 20 seconds later with that zealot attack. Bonyth probably thought that he was further behind then he was and had to attack.
If he would have just pressured and taken that expansion then we would have had a more even game. The sunken rush didn't do critical damage but it messed up his timing and ability to read the game to the point where he made a lot of mistakes later.
U guys are looking at it from the wrong, overall, perspective. It's much simpler than that. I agreed to play in this event, but unfortunately i was forced to play it on a map that i don't like or have much experiance on. This alone lead to bad sim city and insufficient gateway count among other discomforts.
Not commenting other points of discussion, which may or may not be true : )
I feel like I'm having an Artosis moment which feels pretty nauseating to be honest but how does that guy spend that much time to argue about something that he clearly has no clue about. Contradicting himself from post to post doing so too..
On April 20 2021 08:28 TMNT wrote: [quote] You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
I made multiple points. You and the other guy just conveniently ignored them. It's even reflected in that you and him didn't quote my full post but just a part of it.
I agree the game was lost after that sunken rush (hence I said in one of my previous posts that I thought the game would have ended sooner), but not in the manner that we saw. In fact I didn't respond to your previous post about the unwinnable position because in the end it's not something clearly quantifiable so we can agree to disagree.
But now you've made the bolder claim that "Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better", then a certain poster in this thread may feel inclined to remind you that "The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game".
Now back to topic, if you are unclear, here's my two main points:
- At the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. And Bonyth had that lead until the 15 minute mark. Please tell me that there has been no Protoss players in the history of BW who could win the game from there.
- Action never made any other fighting units apart from Hydra (and a few lings at the beginning) and he won a 20-minute game just by navigating them effectively (it's not like he did a hydra bust by A click at the natural of a regular map). He probably doesn't need defiler in that game but in a normal game at least we'd see some lurkers or mutas to make his game easier. Why? If it were Bisu at the other end would he dare to play out like that? Or show me a foreigner Zerg who has the audacity to do that and pull it off. A few great storms and the game can turn. So if that doesn't show the gap in skill I don't know what is.
I don’t think you know how PvZ works.
I think you can't come up with a valid argument so copping out while pretending you're on the high ground is the obvious choice. I can sympathize with that.
Hydra tech is the main tech for Z in that matchup and it’s normal for P to have a higher supply even when behind. You’re describing advantages that aren’t advantages.
Oh come on, that's just some generic stuff to oversimplify the situation here. Hydra is the main tech for Z but it's not the only tech. You don't often see Zerg going for a 20 minute game without further tech than Hydra, do you? Action actually took a risk by going pure hydra like that because one bad fight and his army can evaporate by the storms. Had he lost that game everyone would agree that his mistake is not making any lurkers. Funnily you keep dodging this point.
And I never said Bonyth had an advantage so you're countering a strawman there. The fact that he leads by 30 supplies (and I repeat, it's not just for one moment, he holds that leads until the 15 minute mark) suggests that he's not that far behind, certainly not game-ending far. That kind of supply difference is very common in PvZ, and normally indicates an even game (unless P is on one base or something). But I'm not blind to the fact that he took early damage and was probably behind, which is reflected by other underlying factors, like his Gateway count. Now, you can't deny that there are games where Protoss comes out on top from even worse positions than that, i.e falling behind in supply. So how can you say it's unwinnable, especially since Bonyth also made other mistakes, albeit small, after that, like losing his corsairs for nothing, or letting his stray HTs being picked off by hydra.
I think I've made my points very clear and detailed.
On April 20 2021 17:32 oxKnu wrote: I feel like I'm having an Artosis moment which feels pretty nauseating to be honest but how does that guy spend that much time to argue about something that he clearly has no clue about. Contradicting himself from post to post doing so too..
The internet is truly amazing.
Hahaha the only amazing thing here is how you can keep claiming things without ever providing any substantial arguments.
Judging by the quality of your posts in this conversation up to now you are practically a troll.
Stop over analyzing the game, action seemed to just finish the series early. Just hope for dewalt or bonyth or oya take a game in pvp. We all knew no foreigners are even close to top amateurs, but we are facing top pros.
If i was to link you game between Action and Best where zerg played basically hydra only build until protoss ran out of 3 base economy, would that be good enough to change your mind? Proleague game from couple of days ago. Or was Action going easy on Best as well? Lets see if people can change their opinion in the internet.
On April 20 2021 18:37 Bonyth wrote: If i was to link you game between Action and Best where zerg played basically hydra only build until protoss ran out of 3 base economy, would that be good enough to change your mind? Proleague game from couple of days ago. Or was Action going easy on Best as well? Lets see if people can change their opinion in the internet.
Since March Best lost to Action only once (4 days ago on Ascension), I checked that game and saw lurkers, muta, dark swarm and plague, so maybe you mistaken Action with another Zerg.
But I'm all for constructive discussion so do pls show me a game like that.
You have to look at the entire game as a whole - Bonyth lost all of his zealots at that 8:45 attack. It would make no sense whatsoever to research lurkers unless he was going for a contain or double expand/passive defence. Instead he got his 4th base, doged some storms and went into dual upgrade and macro. He would have a hard time to even afford enough lurkers at that point.
Action had impeccable macro and as Bonyth said he does not like the map (which could make it harder to move around a big army) and slipped on his sim city to get out enough gateways to support the economy (floating a bit of minerals).
On April 20 2021 18:37 Bonyth wrote: If i was to link you game between Action and Best where zerg played basically hydra only build until protoss ran out of 3 base economy, would that be good enough to change your mind? Proleague game from couple of days ago. Or was Action going easy on Best as well? Lets see if people can change their opinion in the internet.
Since March Best lost to Action only once (4 days ago on Ascension), I checked that game and saw lurkers, muta, dark swarm and plague, so maybe you mistaken Action with another Zerg.
But I'm all for constructive discussion so do pls show me a game like that.
you shift the subject of discussion
You claimed bonyth couldnt have been behind due to supply whereas every experienced SCBW player nows that in PvZ the Protoss is always ahead in supply and being so does not at all imply the game is in favour of protoss or even..
On April 20 2021 18:37 Bonyth wrote: If i was to link you game between Action and Best where zerg played basically hydra only build until protoss ran out of 3 base economy, would that be good enough to change your mind? Proleague game from couple of days ago. Or was Action going easy on Best as well? Lets see if people can change their opinion in the internet.
Since March Best lost to Action only once (4 days ago on Ascension), I checked that game and saw lurkers, muta, dark swarm and plague, so maybe you mistaken Action with another Zerg.
But I'm all for constructive discussion so do pls show me a game like that.
you shift the subject of discussion
You claimed bonyth couldnt have been behind due to supply whereas every experienced SCBW player nows that in PvZ the Protoss is always ahead in supply and being so does not at all imply the game is in favour of protoss or even..
I never claimed that lol. You made the same mistake as Kwark. Read my previous response to him. I literally said he was behind. The fact that some of you guys saw I mention the supply difference and immediately jump to the conclusion that I was saying Bonyth was ahead is ludicrous, given that P always leading in supply in PvZ (or PvT for that matter) is a known fact. The discussion was never that shallow.
On April 20 2021 18:37 Bonyth wrote: If i was to link you game between Action and Best where zerg played basically hydra only build until protoss ran out of 3 base economy, would that be good enough to change your mind? Proleague game from couple of days ago. Or was Action going easy on Best as well? Lets see if people can change their opinion in the internet.
Since March Best lost to Action only once (4 days ago on Ascension), I checked that game and saw lurkers, muta, dark swarm and plague, so maybe you mistaken Action with another Zerg.
But I'm all for constructive discussion so do pls show me a game like that.
you shift the subject of discussion
You claimed bonyth couldnt have been behind due to supply whereas every experienced SCBW player nows that in PvZ the Protoss is always ahead in supply and being so does not at all imply the game is in favour of protoss or even..
I never claimed that lol. You made the same mistake as Kwark. Read my previous response to him. I literally said he was behind. The fact that some of you guys saw I mention the supply difference and immediately jump to the conclusion that I was saying Bonyth was ahead is ludicrous, given that P always leading in supply in PvZ (or PvT for that matter) is a known fact. The discussion was never that shallow.
Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. Surely it's an advantage to Action but Bonyth stabilises, and for the entire midgame he always leads by ~30 supplies and ~10 workers, while also gets his third in time. Surely that's not an unwinable position.
You must be trolling at this point haha..
So in your mind, Bonyth was still very much in the game but behind as well?
Impressive. Well I guess overall that's a compliment to Bonyth so all is well here.
On April 20 2021 18:37 Bonyth wrote: If i was to link you game between Action and Best where zerg played basically hydra only build until protoss ran out of 3 base economy, would that be good enough to change your mind? Proleague game from couple of days ago. Or was Action going easy on Best as well? Lets see if people can change their opinion in the internet.
Since March Best lost to Action only once (4 days ago on Ascension), I checked that game and saw lurkers, muta, dark swarm and plague, so maybe you mistaken Action with another Zerg.
But I'm all for constructive discussion so do pls show me a game like that.
you shift the subject of discussion
You claimed bonyth couldnt have been behind due to supply whereas every experienced SCBW player nows that in PvZ the Protoss is always ahead in supply and being so does not at all imply the game is in favour of protoss or even..
I never claimed that lol. You made the same mistake as Kwark. Read my previous response to him. I literally said he was behind. The fact that some of you guys saw I mention the supply difference and immediately jump to the conclusion that I was saying Bonyth was ahead is ludicrous, given that P always leading in supply in PvZ (or PvT for that matter) is a known fact. The discussion was never that shallow.
Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed. Surely it's an advantage to Action but Bonyth stabilises, and for the entire midgame he always leads by ~30 supplies and ~10 workers, while also gets his third in time. Surely that's not an unwinable position.
You must be trolling at this point haha..
So in your mind, Bonyth was still very much in the game but behind as well?
Impressive. Well I guess overall that's a compliment to Bonyth so all is well here.
Yeah, one can be behind and still have a chance to win. How is that a difficult concept in sport? To say that Bonyth had no chance after the sunken rush is actually the insult to him because it basically means he was pulling a fantasy gg timing by fighting for another 15 min.
The supply lead is just evidence that he was still in the game. Some of you guys must have thought because I have 50 posts so I was implying Bonyth was ahead and know nothing about PvZ huh.
The point is: You are arguing a) Bonyth lost even though Action played Hydra man (a viable strategy on Ringing Bloom btw) and even though Bonyth was very much in this game
we are arguing that b) Bonyth was at a disadvantage due to the early losses of 3 buildings and we would have really loved to see what he could have done if that didnt happen considering how decent he played and how overall close and long that game was compared to the other games
Mainly you are always switching ur opinions and restating certain things so Im good now.
I dont get why Bonyth didnt pull probes to kill the sunken. Maybe he didnt know the map? The zealot-micro after the pylon got killed was so off that I thought the replay is broken.
To me it looked like Action didnt want to end the game right there, which should have been the consequential and possible follow-up. Instead he let Bonyth live and made it a challenge to beat him with Hydra-only to make it more even.
Strange game, but I wouldnt call it cheese. Could have been stopped easily.
Cheesing aside, I've never really been a fan of Action's ZvP, he seems really... passive at times? I feel like I see a ton of games where he's just trying to barely survive to defiler tech, rather than having early aggression and containing the Protoss like Soma or Zero
After watching Snow dance his reavers in ASL I’m worried for the foreign Protoss in this one. He made Shuttle look like Bonyth makes me look. The dance across bridges between dragoons, shuttles, and reavers was unbelievable.
It's not live. They cast the replays. All the games are probably played by now. Since we have some PvP this time the foreign team may actually take a win now. Or by some Terran cheese.
I think Snow might loss some game/s (TvP 2facts, ZvP allin, PvP well PvP etc...), but i think he will do his best to win all 9 games and avoid to get embarrassed and judged by korean community...
I think he’s less likely to lose than the others. PvP at the very highest levels is super difficult to win if you’re worse. The 2 gate robo opening is uncheeseable and reaver micro decides everything after that. PvT there aren’t many good cheeses that beat goons with obs and micro. PvZ 3hh there’s always a chance I guess.
It's been a while but after reading the thread twice I want to side with TMNT in the discussion. He provided arguments and only used the fact that Bonyth had more supply as evidence that his disadvantage was not that big. He actually never said Bonyth was at an advantage, if I read the thread well.
Others just jumped at conclusions based on probably not reading his posts carefully.
Apart from the game with Dewalt, which was kind of funky, this has got to be the most crushing defeat for the foreigners so far. Snow looked and felt so incredibly dominant in these games. That was, to be fair, expected
This series is great, I hope this can become a regular thing. Who's playing next week?
On April 24 2021 20:15 dsaqwe.. wrote: huh Snow risked so much
What did he risk in a for fun showmatch?
He probably referred to the 12 Nexus that Snow used a lot during the showmatch.
Tbf it's a popular opening when Korean pros play each other. Any rush can be held with proper micro, and Snow knows his micro is superior to his opponents, hence he can comfortably "risk" it.
On April 24 2021 20:15 dsaqwe.. wrote: huh Snow risked so much
What did he risk in a for fun showmatch?
He probably referred to the 12 Nexus that Snow used a lot during the showmatch.
Yes, I thought that's the reference too. But when you know you're superior in any aspect, it's a pretty safe bet you can get away with a 12 nexus. It's like even though foreigners obviously know what the best response is supposed to be, they just can't execute it properly and this gave the needed layer of security for Snow. And he's so tricky too, that probe dance against gypsy, I gasped when I saw it and I thought "No way you're doing this, you're so dirty!" It was so pretty!
On April 25 2021 03:47 TMNT wrote: He probably referred to the 12 Nexus that Snow used a lot during the showmatch.
Yes, I thought that's the reference too. But when you know you're superior in any aspect, it's a pretty safe bet you can get away with a 12 nexus. It's like even though foreigners obviously know what the best response is supposed to be, they just can't execute it properly and this gave the needed layer of security for Snow. And he's so tricky too, that probe dance against gypsy, I gasped when I saw it and I thought "No way you're doing this, you're so dirty!" It was so pretty!
Also I'm quite ignorant, can someone explain why did Snow choose to cross scout vs Oya? Is it something like "If he's not cross, I fork my build like this regardless if he's up or left." I'm so confused when pros scout like that, it has to have a reason. It was critical this game as it reveled the zealots and the goon damaged one before they were at the ramp.
On April 18 2021 14:28 KwarK wrote: [quote] Did you miss the first 5 minutes of the game?
I get that you're refering to the sunken rush. Yes Bonyth gets sunken rushed but it's not a game ending cheese. He loses a gateway, a pylon and a forge, but no probes and the Core is not delayed.
...Have you ever played this game? Holy shit..
What's up with the flock of SC2 fans in this thread spreading their dumbass arguments that are hilarious at best?
You better come up with some arguments of your own before calling others dumbass. Otherwise I can call yours the same without providing any evidences.
Initially I also thought the game would have ended very soon after that sunken rush, but look: at the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. Obviously those figures dont tell the whole story but how can you look at that and say the game is about to end for Protoss? And it didn't. Bonyth kept that lead until the 15 minute mark. I have seen Protoss eventually win the game in harder circumstances. Let's not pretend we all haven't.
I can go on to justify my view on that game, but let's see your response first because I don't like conversations too off-topic.
Your argument reeks of someone that hasn't seen that many games of BW in their life, especially PvZ.
Zerg was ahead, zerg was always ahead in that game.
The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game, I'm sure in time you will pick them up as you watch more BW.
Once again you haven't provided any concrete arguments but just jump on the conclusion.
I can easily tell you that despite you watching more BW than me (let's just assume that's true for the sake of argument) you barely know anything yet you go on here bragging about your understanding. See, I just did what you did.
Of course Action was ahead in that game. If he wasn't he would have played more defensively with sunken and lurker etc. rather than dancing around with pure hydras like that.
Then again, what is your point here, as I don't see one other than bragging without any evidences?
Yeah you got it now.
It was because of the dancing hydras he was ahead..
You don't even earn the right to be condescending here lol.
You haven't been able to counter just one single point I made. Talk about clueless...
You never made a point. The game was lost in the first 5 minutes with the cheese. Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better.
I made multiple points. You and the other guy just conveniently ignored them. It's even reflected in that you and him didn't quote my full post but just a part of it.
I agree the game was lost after that sunken rush (hence I said in one of my previous posts that I thought the game would have ended sooner), but not in the manner that we saw. In fact I didn't respond to your previous post about the unwinnable position because in the end it's not something clearly quantifiable so we can agree to disagree.
But now you've made the bolder claim that "Nothing after that point showed anything about who was better", then a certain poster in this thread may feel inclined to remind you that "The discrepancy in skill was apparent in other more subtle aspects of that game".
Now back to topic, if you are unclear, here's my two main points:
- At the 8:25 minute mark, Bonyth is up 30 supplies (82 vs 52) and 12 workers (46 vs 34), has speedlot +1, while Action is on 4 and a half hatches with only hydra tech. And Bonyth had that lead until the 15 minute mark. Please tell me that there has been no Protoss players in the history of BW who could win the game from there.
- Action never made any other fighting units apart from Hydra (and a few lings at the beginning) and he won a 20-minute game just by navigating them effectively (it's not like he did a hydra bust by A click at the natural of a regular map). He probably doesn't need defiler in that game but in a normal game at least we'd see some lurkers or mutas to make his game easier. Why? If it were Bisu at the other end would he dare to play out like that? Or show me a foreigner Zerg who has the audacity to do that and pull it off. A few great storms and the game can turn. So if that doesn't show the gap in skill I don't know what is.
Completely agree with you. Action was just trolling him more or less at this point. Don't know why these guys are in denial.
Hello guys! A new video has been uploaded to StarCastTV! Today's video is a showmatch series of Foreign All-Star vs Snow! Cast by Scan and Nyoken! Thank you for watching
If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and like! And please write comments for Caster who is trying hard for Starcraft fans!
On April 26 2021 08:55 mcmartini wrote: Only caught the last few matches but very entertaining. I have learn Snow w/ a shuttle is incredibly dangerous.
Yeah, it is crazy watching Snow rip face with shuttle-reaver, especially against Dewalt trying to do the same thing and doing a pretty good job.
I think the most shocking thing throughout this series was not so much the score as it was the foreign terrans all playing gas in tvz, not only are they 1 year behind the meta, they aren't even going to try to abuse high latency bio vs mutas? Come on my dudes. :')
Hello guys! A new video has been uploaded to StarCastTV! Today's video is a showmatch series of Foreign All-Star vs 9 korean pro! Cast by Scan and Nyoken! Thank you for watching
If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and like! And please write comments for Caster who is trying hard for Starcraft fans!
So glad Bonyth got a win for team foreigner! His game against Rush really showed his strength and weaknesses. He is an intelligent player with good decision making and outstanding micro. But his macro and multitasking are flawed. He was going above 1500 minerals several times, although not much happened.
I figured a foreign player would win eventually given the inclusion of weaker (though still if course quite good) players in the Korean lineup and the sheer number of games. But I never expected it to be Rush who lost, not sure why he went for such a risky strategy.
So glad Bonyth got a win for team foreigner! His game against Rush really showed his strength and weaknesses. He is an intelligent player with good decision making and outstanding micro. But his macro and multitasking are flawed. He was going above 1500 minerals several times, although not much happened.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Cs2WnZl.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IEZ2wdD.jpg)
Foreign All-Star vs Korean Gamer
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cYXfuQB.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Hlk3Iyb.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1url0iv.jpg)
