EPTyoutu.be
Thooorin's take on the "God of the Battlefield"
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
youtu.be | ||
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On April 23 2019 04:54 .gypsy wrote: Does this really need its own thread lol I don't know, probably not. I just thought it would be cool to share since "mainstream" content for Brood War isn't exactly the most prevalent thing out there in 2019. | ||
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Ikirouta
Finland727 Posts
On April 23 2019 04:54 .gypsy wrote: Does this really need its own thread lol why not? | ||
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
Thanks for the heads up. | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13918 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2221 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49972 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/final-edits/405029-god-of-the-battlefield-part-2 Linking it for people to read. | ||
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ironcell
Chile1127 Posts
He is trying to said "guys hear me I can tell you the real story better than Ver" then he nitpick the statistics used or manipulated by Ver from the first infographic for 60 minutes, Ver wrote a "fraud", but you know what? We can sit and wait for him to write something of the same quality and depth and we will get nothing. Ver "manipulated" data to write that Saviour got a 71% win rate vs Terrans, so this article may a gem, but is full of "lies". Seriously? Another provocative heading by Thorin with almost nothing to offer, for the way he talks and thow trash at Ver, he doesn't even know what a bonjwa is, watch it at your own risk. Or better yet, don't waste your time and read the articles of Ver instead. For anything curious i am not a fan of Saviour, but still I don't like people who trash other to build their careers. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On April 23 2019 04:54 .gypsy wrote: Does this really need its own thread lol I think it does. Because a good amount of people probably, myself included, took the entire article at face value, but Thoorin the statistics aficionado spends an entire hour examining that time period it cited. I personally found it pretty satisfying (spoiler: I'm not a fan of Savior). On April 23 2019 13:39 ironcell wrote: I am watching right now, and it's kind of sad, if i remember correctly Thorin likes to said "polemic" things for "truth" sake, but he really does not understand the nature of the BW competition and i am afraid that also he is ignorant, to say the least, of the BW meta at Saviour's golden days (He even said that) He is trying to said "guys hear me I can tell you the real story better than Ver" then he nitpick the statistics used or manipulated by Ver from the first infographic for 60 minutes, Ver wrote a "fraud", but you know what? We can sit and wait for him to write something of the same quality and depth and we will get nothing. Ver "manipulated" data to write that Saviour got a 71% win rate vs Terrans, so this article may a gem, but is full of "lies". Seriously? Another provocative heading by Thorin with almost nothing to offer, for the way he talks and thow trash at Ver, he doesn't even know what a bonjwa is, watch it at your own risk. Or better yet, don't waste your time and read the articles of Ver instead. For anything curious i am not a fan of Saviour, but still I don't like people who trash other to build their careers. Then Savior shouldn't have lost to his good pal Shine[Name] twice in series play during that 12-0 "Era of Domination" then should he? He's not attacking Ver's quality of writing - heck he declared at least twice in the video that "God of the Battlefield" is the greatest esports article he's read and the tactics analysis with graphics blah blah blah were "dynamite stuff". | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
Thorin just chose to rail on the way Ver used statistics, without discussing the underlying factors, which would judge whether savior should be considered bonjywa: his play during games, and his contributions to the broodwar meta. | ||
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Berby
15 Posts
On April 23 2019 14:49 Chronopolis wrote: Pointing the statistical errors and cherry picking is fine and all, but to counter that, he lists maps that Savior loses on, which have less than 20 games on them over 5 years. A bonjwa will drop maps, of course. Just because he speaks convincingly doesn't mean his evidence is any less anecdotal. Thorin just chose to rail on the way Ver used statistics, without discussing the underlying factors, which would judge whether savior should be considered bonjywa: his play during games, and his contributions to the broodwar meta. He doesn't discuss whether savior should be considered a bonjwa because this video isn't about whether or not Savior is a bonjwa. It's simply showing that while the article is incredible, it omits certain data and includes others arbitrarily to force a narrative. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
While ver did not give exact data for his winrates for the other players, its pretty obvious he was picking the longest peak winrates he could find, explaining why there was a different time, amount of games etc for them. I mean Flash streak happened years after savior. If you actually look at Saviors ZvT winrate during this period in official games, its 68% while everyone else was struggling ZvT. What he did was incredible at the time. For someone who seems to know so much about the history of BW, it seems like he cant have been around at the time savior was actually doing this. Because ZvT was a graveyard during that time, alot of the map pools was horror shows for ZvT, with alot maps heavily favoring T (60+% winrates). One of these starleagues he won, Savior was the only one winning a ZvT for the entire thing. Asking for more citations and sources for his claims is a fair request, but to straight up call this fraudulent and lies is pretty stupid in my opinion when his entire case comes from cherry picking prelim stats that nobody else uses. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On April 23 2019 15:40 Oystein wrote: While he makes some valid points, I think a lot of what he brings up are just plain wrong. Offline prelim games have never been considered official matches in BW, they didnt show up on players stats before games in broadcasted games, hence you even have to filter them in if you want to see them in TLPD. While Ver might have taken some liberties in his work, excluding prelim games are def not one of them. He also makes a big fuzz about how he lost the 13th series on the same day as his 12th win. Clearly if you are showing someones best streak you do the streak until a loss occurs, what happens after that is irrelevant for the 12-0. Now you could argue the superfights should not have been included, but the streak for official series was not lies. I think this guy is the first one I have ever seen who brings up prelim games like they are incredibly meaningful official games. While ver did not give exact data for his winrates for the other players, its pretty obvious he was picking the longest peak winrates he could find, explaining why there was a different time, amount of games etc for them. I mean Flash streak happened years after savior. If you actually look at Saviors ZvT winrate during this period in official games, its 68% while everyone else was struggling ZvT. What he did was incredible at the time. For someone who seems to know so much about the history of BW, it seems like he cant have been around at the time savior was actually doing this. Because ZvT was a graveyard during that time, alot of the map pools was horror shows for ZvT, with alot maps heavily favoring T (60+% winrates). One of these starleagues he won, Savior was the only one winning a ZvT for the entire thing. Asking for more citations and sources for his claims is a fair request, but to straight up call this fraudulent and lies is pretty stupid in my opinion when his entire case comes from cherry picking prelim stats that nobody else uses. Seems like I wasn't the only one who was left with a bad taste in my mouth after watching the video. While what he said about the offline qualifiers are valid points on a pure technical level, I did start to wonder when I had last seen these qualifiers actually included in the winrate stats of a BW or SC2 pro for that matter. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
He does have a point though. You kinda have to be in the OSL, aka not lose to Shine[Name] and Yooi in OSL prelims, to lose in the OSL. I wasn't watching BW at the time either, but I get the vibe about TvZ in those days. To his credit, he did look at Ride of the Valkyries and Forte. Also, it's Savior we're talking about. Man doesn't need anyone else to destroy his legacy for him, he already did a good job of that on his own. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
For example, if Ver said 5 MSL finals in a row instead of 6SL, it would be true and it would have the same effect in the narrative. The part where he talked about other matchups i do believe Ver was comparing it for the numbers. And that can work. You can say a football player that won Three cups in a row is as impressive than rolland garos player going 3 in a row. So i found it a little cherry picking. Also Thorin assumes a lot of what Ver did want to do. Is he right ? I don't know. Well... He may be right but it looks like slender to force upon us all Thorin's facts. I don't think that was necessary as he makes also valid points. Also losing to a Terran on a Zerg favored map happens to everyone. Winning on Terran favored map had not. (Fuck you Longinus :p) Thorin is even doing the same thing as what he is trying to achieve : "The article is Fraud of the Battlefield" while ONLY the narrative is false (or innacurate). Tactics analysis are... 90% of Ver's article and are correct (or so i think). Basicly. Thorin did what Ver did. It was a good watch nonetheless. On April 23 2019 14:29 IntoTheEmo wrote: I think it does. Because a good amount of people probably, myself included, took the entire article at face value, but Thoorin the statistics aficionado spends an entire hour examining that time period it cited. I personally found it pretty satisfying (spoiler: I'm not a fan of Savior). Then Savior shouldn't have lost to his good pal Shine[Name] twice in series play during that 12-0 "Era of Domination" then should he? He's not attacking Ver's quality of writing - heck he declared at least twice in the video that "God of the Battlefield" is the greatest esports article he's read and the tactics analysis with graphics blah blah blah were "dynamite stuff". That's my problem with the video. He says : "It's good blahblah for 10seconds" then he spends an hour on 10% of the article. As i said just in my wall of text up. He's doing exactly the same thing. It's like i would tell you : "You are a piece of shit in this post but all of your other posts were fine" (it's an example, i do not believe you are PoS for your post). You would not even react to the end of my sentence. You would get blocked on the insult (which is human). So... Interesting video because of what he points out that is true (missing series) but not an absolute thrilling one either. Good watch but... MEh for a lot of it | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On April 23 2019 19:00 IntoTheEmo wrote: Yeah that's definitely true, if he was a fan of the article he should've covered some of the positives as well. I'll concede that. The video's already an hour long though :\ I guess he could have done that instead of going for the 6SL wins because this was really cherry picking as 5MSL in a row was already an achievement. But yeah... more than an hour and no one would watch it | ||
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ii.blitzkrieg
Canada1122 Posts
Save yourself the hour of watching this and go read the article if you haven't already with a small grain of salt for the stats used in the opening. Go watch some of the series of the time period to see Savior's dominance first hand and enjoy yourself. Being around for that era as a Terran player I absolutely hated Savior. Not long after I was able to look back and appreciate his greatness. It was an awesome era of transition and change for the best match up in BW while the top Terrans were all basically trying to figure out how to take down a Zerg Bonjwa. edit: some good games of the time off the top of my head if you don't want to bother getting the full context of the time - savior vs iris savior vs midas savior vs nada savior vs fbh (this is slightly later on.) | ||
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Odoakar
Croatia1835 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On April 23 2019 06:01 fazek42 wrote: I kinda like seperate threads, because sometimes I'm just too lazy to open up the BW general thread to see if there's anything new in there I feel like the over-use of the general discussion have a soporific effect on the forum/site. We may hire new volunteer moderators if we're in short of that. What do you guys think? | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2221 Posts
Letmelose some time ago wrote that no site has perfect stats for bw kespa era, some games that are counted on tlpd are not included on ygosu and other korean sources, so it is really difficult to get 100% acurrate win %. And the name Fraud of the battlefield is just cringy af imo. God of the battlefield represents the greatness of saviors carreer based on tactical play and godlike map abuse for his era. It was a super good video tho, hope he keeps doing bw stuff. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
He's still very desperate to become relevant again to the point where he's throwing mud everywhere hoping one will stick. I remember him posting garbage and clickbaity Dota 2 content until he got banned from dota 2 subreddit then he moved on to LoL. But that didn't work out as well as he thought so now he's doing this kind of nitpicking BW content. He should really stick to CS:GO, at least he's somewhat respected there | ||
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JakePlissken
55 Posts
On April 24 2019 05:38 BigFan wrote: Am I the only one confused as to why Thorin felt the need to criticize an article almost 8 years after it was written and released? Obviously there's no time limit to criticize anything, but 8 years in esports is huge and it honestly sounds more like a clickbait video than anything else. Granted, I haven't watched the video to confirm that, but reading the comments, it sounds like the video was mostly critical on an aspect or two. It's also true that offline prelim results aren't factored into a player WRs and just because a player is a bonjwa doesn't mean that they won't drop maps or games to others. I was wondering that too. It's a great article, but I think most people had forgotten about it until now. I certainly had, but I'm glad it reminded me to give it another read. I do think it's appropriate to criticize the "truth optional" and cherry-picked approach the article takes with regards to stats. He mainly takes issue with the narrative that Savior was some unstoppable ZvT god when in fact he was getting knocked out of 5 OSL qualifiers by relatively unknown Terrans. To me it sounded like the point about prelim matches was more illustrative than anything, although he could have made it clearer - he says Savior's actual record in that time was 16-6 if you count prelims, which hardly paints the same picture as the infallible 12-0 infographic wants you to believe, and that was the real issue he was pointing out. Is the criticism fair and warranted? Yeah, probably. But it's not really relevant to anything happening in BW at the moment. | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On April 24 2019 17:05 JakePlissken wrote: I was wondering that too. It's a great article, but I think most people had forgotten about it until now. I certainly had, but I'm glad it reminded me to give it another read. I do think it's appropriate to criticize the "truth optional" and cherry-picked approach the article takes with regards to stats. He mainly takes issue with the narrative that Savior was some unstoppable ZvT god when in fact he was getting knocked out of 5 OSL qualifiers by relatively unknown Terrans. To me it sounded like the point about prelim matches was more illustrative than anything, although he could have made it clearer - he says Savior's actual record in that time was 16-6 if you count prelims, which hardly paints the same picture as the infallible 12-0 infographic wants you to believe, and that was the real issue he was pointing out. Is the criticism fair and warranted? Yeah, probably. But it's not really relevant to anything happening in BW at the moment. I agree with this post. I also agree with what Oystein wrote in the last page. Savior's peak in Broodwar was not about perfection where he simply did not lose games (or series) such as peak iloveoov or peak flash, it was about how against the odds Savior's peak was. Savior, probably more than any other player, created a mystique where he was in peoples heads, scary to play against, where even if you won games against Savior, they were incredibly difficult and took a lot of effort. In a game against Savior, even if by most indicators you should easily roll over him with your army due to what's happened in the game, you still just did not know whether he had a group of a defiler and 5 lurkers waiting that could dismantle your attack. That's what Thorin is saying Ver misrepresents, although I think if you read Ver's article, Ver describes the context of Savior's reign very well. It was mostly the infographic and some statistical omissions that Thorin rags on. I wouldn't call this article a fraud. Also, like Oystein said, losses in ODT and in Chinese leagues were taken with a different significance than series plays in the OSL/MSLs. Thorin does have aspergers and he tends to see things as very black and white, and these are the kinds of things that would hang Thorin up, but his presence in the esports journalism world is important. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On April 26 2019 03:45 ColdLava wrote: Thorin does have aspergers and he tends to see things as very black and white, and these are the kinds of things that would hang Thorin up This explains so much. | ||
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