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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On December 21 2018 13:04 Ideas wrote:
This really sucks. No offense to KSL but starleague wins don't feel as "real" to me if you know the best player in the world isn't in it :\
I hope flash can recover and come back for at least 1 more ASL before going to military.
That brings up a good question. If his physical capabilities were not hindered, would he be the current #1 unbeatable player. There are lots of different champions in the last 4 starleagues, but none of them look as invincible as Flash did during his triple ASL run. Being that his ASL run was just a year prior, I think we could argue that he would still be winning every tournament.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 22 2018 00:42 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2018 13:04 Ideas wrote:
This really sucks. No offense to KSL but starleague wins don't feel as "real" to me if you know the best player in the world isn't in it :\
I hope flash can recover and come back for at least 1 more ASL before going to military. That brings up a good question. If his physical capabilities were not hindered, would he be the current #1 unbeatable player. There are lots of different champions in the last 4 starleagues, but none of them look as invincible as Flash did during his triple ASL run. Being that his ASL run was just a year prior, I think we could argue that he would still be winning every tournament.
Don't open that can of worms! lol. I tried mentioning it during the ASL6 finals LR, but I rattled several folks it seems, and I also don't like questioning the result at this point. Either way, my thoughts on this is that if Flash was 100%, he would've used more bio-based builds, instead of the 1-1-1 which is easier on the wrists and the finals would've more than likely ended in his favour. However, that would also be making excuses because EffOrt also plays the game at a high APM so his wrists are probably close to getting busted as well. It's much like Last having bad wrists again, and getting destroyed by SK in KSL2. Would he have won their series or was SK still that much better regardless that day? It's part of their physical training, aka preservation so we should just forget about this imo. I would've liked to see him 5 rax +1 for just a bit more time, too bad.
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On December 22 2018 00:57 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 00:42 BisuDagger wrote:On December 21 2018 13:04 Ideas wrote:
This really sucks. No offense to KSL but starleague wins don't feel as "real" to me if you know the best player in the world isn't in it :\
I hope flash can recover and come back for at least 1 more ASL before going to military. That brings up a good question. If his physical capabilities were not hindered, would he be the current #1 unbeatable player. There are lots of different champions in the last 4 starleagues, but none of them look as invincible as Flash did during his triple ASL run. Being that his ASL run was just a year prior, I think we could argue that he would still be winning every tournament. Don't open that can of worms! lol. I tried mentioning it during the ASL6 finals LR, but I rattled several folks it seems, and I also don't like questioning the result at this point. Either way, my thoughts on this is that if Flash was 100%, he would've used more bio-based builds, instead of the 1-1-1 which is easier on the wrists and the finals would've more than likely ended in his favour. However, that would also be making excuses because EffOrt also plays the game at a high APM so his wrists are probably close to getting busted as well. It's much like Last having bad wrists again, and getting destroyed by SK in KSL2. Would he have won their series or was SK still that much better regardless that day? It's part of their physical training, aka preservation so we should just forget about this imo. I would've liked to see him 5 rax +1 for just a bit more time, too bad.
I think the argument holds if you make the champions accountable for consistency. Soulkey and Effort now have to at a minimum make the round of four in both tournaments and need to make the finals in at least one of the tournaments. I have a feeling both of these players won't come close to that expectation. Yet, if we regard Flash (even his current state), you could really believe he is capable of such results. Soulkey and Effort are the best at the moment, but I regard them as flavor of the month players right now. It was just a short period ago where we saw protoss domination and thought the same thing about Rain.
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My impression of the finals is that Effort just sorta has Flash's number in a Bo5 setting and is great at preparing and knowing how to exploit Flash's train of thought to get advantages. But Flash is still the better player overall and if you made them play 100 games Flash would probably win 60-70 of them (assuming physical issues weren't a problem). Or if you made the top 20 players all play each other 10 times or something Flash would be at the top by a wide margin.
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Now, without Bisu and Flash zergs will have a free reign!
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 22 2018 01:04 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 00:57 BigFan wrote:On December 22 2018 00:42 BisuDagger wrote:On December 21 2018 13:04 Ideas wrote:
This really sucks. No offense to KSL but starleague wins don't feel as "real" to me if you know the best player in the world isn't in it :\
I hope flash can recover and come back for at least 1 more ASL before going to military. That brings up a good question. If his physical capabilities were not hindered, would he be the current #1 unbeatable player. There are lots of different champions in the last 4 starleagues, but none of them look as invincible as Flash did during his triple ASL run. Being that his ASL run was just a year prior, I think we could argue that he would still be winning every tournament. Don't open that can of worms! lol. I tried mentioning it during the ASL6 finals LR, but I rattled several folks it seems, and I also don't like questioning the result at this point. Either way, my thoughts on this is that if Flash was 100%, he would've used more bio-based builds, instead of the 1-1-1 which is easier on the wrists and the finals would've more than likely ended in his favour. However, that would also be making excuses because EffOrt also plays the game at a high APM so his wrists are probably close to getting busted as well. It's much like Last having bad wrists again, and getting destroyed by SK in KSL2. Would he have won their series or was SK still that much better regardless that day? It's part of their physical training, aka preservation so we should just forget about this imo. I would've liked to see him 5 rax +1 for just a bit more time, too bad. I think the argument holds if you make the champions accountable for consistency. Soulkey and Effort now have to at a minimum make the round of four in both tournaments and need to make the finals in at least one of the tournaments. I have a feeling both of these players won't come close to that expectation. Yet, if we regard Flash (even his current state), you could really believe he is capable of such results. Soulkey and Effort are the best at the moment, but I regard them as flavor of the month players right now. It was just a short period ago where we saw protoss domination and thought the same thing about Rain.
oh don't get me wrong, I agree somewhat. I wouldn't call them flavour of the month though, just that they lack consistency and drive much like Rain. I think both players will likely falter in the next ASL or KSL while you could always count on Flash to at least make the finals, and in most cases, win the whole thing outright. Watching him win ASL in 2017, you could see it. He was a player that rarely made mistakes, made the best decisions, and knew how to play the race. Everyone was scared of meeting Flash, and everyone spoke highly of him. His mindset was on another level, and he always spoke of how he was not worried, and that he's the best. Flash is pretty much the only player in this era that has forced balance whining, and showed that he can dominate everyone.
On December 22 2018 01:57 Ideas wrote:
My impression of the finals is that Effort just sorta has Flash's number in a Bo5 setting and is great at preparing and knowing how to exploit Flash's train of thought to get advantages. But Flash is still the better player overall and if you made them play 100 games Flash would probably win 60-70 of them (assuming physical issues weren't a problem). Or if you made the top 20 players all play each other 10 times or something Flash would be at the top by a wide margin.
Maybe that's true, hard to tell tbh. I would probably say Flash wins closer to 70-80 if he actually uses bio, aka no wrist problems preventing him from doing it. EffOrt won their latest BO5, but when it came to preparation tournaments, the two only meet twice in 8+ years. That's not a look to go off.
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On December 22 2018 02:11 Ideas wrote:Effort also beat flash in this thing:  Seoul Cup - OGN Super Match but I don't know how much that really counts.
That counts like everything man. Don't mind BigFan, this guy will always find a way to tell you that it's "That's not a look to go off." for anything that implies Flash losing to someone, particularly when it comes to zerg, he probably is maltreated by them I guess 
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 22 2018 02:11 Ideas wrote:Effort also beat flash in this thing: Seoul Cup - OGN Super Match but I don't know how much that really counts.
That's a showmatch, a minor event. It's nothing prestigious like the OSL of old or the ASL/KSL of recent times.
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Damn, I've always respected Flash for being a hard yet humble worker and wanted to believe his wrist condition was fully resolved following his past surgery. I also wanted one more FvJ final or at least a playoff match before either departed for the military.
Ultimately though, he does need to take care of himself for the long-term. He has a bright future ahead of him - with that approach he has to things I'd like to think he'd go far in life regardless of profession.
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On December 22 2018 02:20 BigFan wrote:That's a showmatch, a minor event. It's nothing prestigious like the OSL of old or the ASL/KSL of recent times.
That's a load of BS. I remember that tournament, and all the players were playing really hard. This was when ASL was the only thing going around in Broodwar and everyone was seeking more live tournaments.
You're the master of revisionist history when it comes to these things.
Flash does no want to lose, period. I remember when he lost in DSL vs. Best he looked like his family was dragged through public torture.
Flash is good and the best but there are players out there that can beat him when he is also at his peak. BW is a taxing game, no one is invincible.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 22 2018 06:11 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 02:20 BigFan wrote:On December 22 2018 02:11 Ideas wrote:Effort also beat flash in this thing: Seoul Cup - OGN Super Match but I don't know how much that really counts. That's a showmatch, a minor event. It's nothing prestigious like the OSL of old or the ASL/KSL of recent times. That's a load of BS. I remember that tournament, and all the players were playing really hard. This was when ASL was the only thing going around in Broodwar and everyone was seeking more live tournaments. You're the master of revisionist history when it comes to these things. Flash does no want to lose, period. I remember when he lost in DSL vs. Best he looked like his family was dragged through public torture. Flash is good and the best but there are players out there that can beat him when he is also at his peak. BW is a taxing game, no one is invincible.
This event features former Progamers Flash, Stork, BeSt and EffOrt facing off in a Double Elimination mini tournament. From LP
This was a four person mini-tournament, not some tournament that had qualifiers and where the players had to go from the Ro24 to the finals and prepare for each stage. No one in their right mind would put this on the level of an ASL or KSL. Even WEGL was rougher than this, and that was an 8 man tournament. Also, I don't know where you see this as me claiming that Flash doesn't want to win lol. Flash is the best, he truly believes it so he'll obviously true hard regardless, but Flash's true strength has always been how he's able to get into his opponents' mind, and prepare hard. Like how he went for a proxy rax during the ASL4 finals against hero, and completely decimated him while hero figured he'll try to get the upper hand with macro. You're free to decide how much weight the tournament holds, I know how much it does for me.
This also had no prize money, but likely appearance features which afaik would've been paid upfront. Aka, there's no 15-20,000k on the line for winning aside from pride which admittedly is important to these players, but pride won't pay for your living expenses either:
Prize money was not awarded, while possible appearance fees for the players were not publicly made available
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No one's going to talk about how Sharp beat Rain again?
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All of Sharp's wins were timing attacks though or scrappy early-mid games. Rain is still a scary macro proposition for any Terran.This series didn't change that in my view. It just solidified Sharp as a great terran running today.
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United States10626 Posts
On December 22 2018 06:11 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 02:20 BigFan wrote:On December 22 2018 02:11 Ideas wrote:Effort also beat flash in this thing: Seoul Cup - OGN Super Match but I don't know how much that really counts. That's a showmatch, a minor event. It's nothing prestigious like the OSL of old or the ASL/KSL of recent times. That's a load of BS. I remember that tournament, and all the players were playing really hard. This was when ASL was the only thing going around in Broodwar and everyone was seeking more live tournaments. You're the master of revisionist history when it comes to these things. Flash does no want to lose, period. I remember when he lost in DSL vs. Best he looked like his family was dragged through public torture. Flash is good and the best but there are players out there that can beat him when he is also at his peak. BW is a taxing game, no one is invincible.
imagine calling someone else a revisionist while you go parading around thinking a 4 man showmatch is more important than a ro24 + qualifier + actual titled and recognized major tournament.
guess by your logic Rain vs Last ASL vs KSL at blizzcon has a ton of weight too right?
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On December 22 2018 07:41 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 06:11 oxKnu wrote:On December 22 2018 02:20 BigFan wrote:On December 22 2018 02:11 Ideas wrote:Effort also beat flash in this thing: Seoul Cup - OGN Super Match but I don't know how much that really counts. That's a showmatch, a minor event. It's nothing prestigious like the OSL of old or the ASL/KSL of recent times. That's a load of BS. I remember that tournament, and all the players were playing really hard. This was when ASL was the only thing going around in Broodwar and everyone was seeking more live tournaments. You're the master of revisionist history when it comes to these things. Flash does no want to lose, period. I remember when he lost in DSL vs. Best he looked like his family was dragged through public torture. Flash is good and the best but there are players out there that can beat him when he is also at his peak. BW is a taxing game, no one is invincible. imagine calling someone else a revisionist while you go parading around thinking a 4 man showmatch is more important than a ro24 + qualifier + actual titled and recognized major tournament. guess by your logic Rain vs Last ASL vs KSL at blizzcon has a ton of weight too right?
Never did I say this was more important then the bigger tournaments. The TL brigade of writers has a very strawman like way or arguing points around here. I won't indulge in this lame exercise. Sorry.
However I would say that it's important for you guys to understand that the Korean community of pros is quite small and wins even in less advertised or non-english commented events are quite important too. Yes pride matters.
Some of us are enjoying the quality BW nonetheless but personally I'm a bit unamused by the pseudo-journalism injected into these threads by people that fail to acknowledge that there's a scene beyond the two main tournaments.
It's whatever anyways.
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Flash wins:
-> He's obviously the better player, he's god. Also he has an aura
-> Flash will ofc win the next big thing too!
Flash loses:
-> the maps favor the opponent
-> Flash wrist hurts
-> Flash didn't really want to win it so bad
-> the opponent made a mistake by not respecting Flash Aura enough
-> his opponent will surely falter in the next tournament and fade away
Justbigfanthings
i propose that Flash will never be lower than Rank #2 in the PR because of his Aura!!
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 22 2018 08:04 Cele wrote:
Flash wins:
-> He's obviously the better player, he's god. Also he has an aura
-> Flash will ofc win the next big thing too!
Flash loses:
-> the maps favor the opponent
-> Flash wrist hurts
-> Flash didn't really want to win it so bad
-> the opponent made a mistake by not respecting Flash Aura enough
-> his opponent will surely falter in the next tournament and fade away
Justbigfanthings
i propose that Flash will never be lower than Rank #2 in the PR because of his Aura!!
I know you're trying to have some fun with this, but maybe re-read my original post on this. If anything, I'm the guy who's saying that we should respect his ASL6 win, but sure, I'd like to see EffOrt maintain some consistency and prove me wrong. I think it's high time we got a consistent Zerg champion, and I don't mind either EffOrt or Soulkey being that champion (well, Larva too, but he's not there yet):
On December 22 2018 00:57 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2018 00:42 BisuDagger wrote:On December 21 2018 13:04 Ideas wrote:
This really sucks. No offense to KSL but starleague wins don't feel as "real" to me if you know the best player in the world isn't in it :\
I hope flash can recover and come back for at least 1 more ASL before going to military. That brings up a good question. If his physical capabilities were not hindered, would he be the current #1 unbeatable player. There are lots of different champions in the last 4 starleagues, but none of them look as invincible as Flash did during his triple ASL run. Being that his ASL run was just a year prior, I think we could argue that he would still be winning every tournament. Don't open that can of worms! lol. I tried mentioning it during the ASL6 finals LR, but I rattled several folks it seems, and I also don't like questioning the result at this point. Either way, my thoughts on this is that if Flash was 100%, he would've used more bio-based builds, instead of the 1-1-1 which is easier on the wrists and the finals would've more than likely ended in his favour. However, that would also be making excuses because EffOrt also plays the game at a high APM so his wrists are probably close to getting busted as well. It's much like Last having bad wrists again, and getting destroyed by SK in KSL2. Would he have won their series or was SK still that much better regardless that day? It's part of their physical training, aka preservation so we should just forget about this imo. I would've liked to see him 5 rax +1 for just a bit more time, too bad.
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I suppose it shouldn't be called the Achilles heel but the God's wrist. He mentioned his military service during the interview post-ASL s6 finals, let's hope it doesn't happen yet. Especially when there's still over 9 months till Bisu comes back (hopefully TT)
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EPT
