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lemmata
468 Posts
Tbh, even 100 apm is quite an achievement from a beginner's perspective. I think that we tend to forget that. Not sure if there is an easy solution to this while the pool of beginners remains so small but it is a need that the community should think about addressing in the future. | ||
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badpenny
Canada54 Posts
On September 12 2018 04:12 Highgamer wrote: Badpenny, do you know this? Birdie's Mechanics Guide No hands to watch though, but maybe this will do as an illustration where you want to end at: or this + Show Spoiler + I have watched those Birdie videos, but only once, so thanks for bringing them to my attention again. There's a lot of good stuff in them. But when you watch the Jaedong video, it's clear that particular fingers on his left hand are assigned to particular keys/sets of keys in order to minimize hand movement. Even if you slow that video down to x.25 speed, that's not what (my) noob hands look like playing SC. I'm not aware of any tutorials/guides which focus on that aspect of the game, although I think they would be immensely helpful to a lot of people. | ||
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Cheesefome
314 Posts
On September 12 2018 12:35 Luddite wrote: I think you're taking what I said to too much of an extreme. I'm not saying you have to do super cheesy strategies every game, I'm just saying you don't have to follow the same ultra-economized builds that the pros use. Maybe start off by building a lot of cannons, and gradually shift to building fewer cannons as you get better at reacting to small movements on the minimap. Or like you said, you can start off with doing army-heavy builds, and then change to more econ-heavy builds once you feel with macro+micro at the same time. I just feel like Starcraft has lost some of what it had when I was a kid, before broadband internet, when we all felt free to develop our own strategies. Because that would defeat the point of trying to get better at a reasonable timeframe. I get what you're saying but time is too valuable to be messing around and trying to learn based off experience alone by testing if 20 canons vs 20 sunkens is viable. A more reasonable solution is to simply ask someone if that would work. The purpose of these posts, tutorials, videos is to avoid making the mistakes people have already figured out don't work for the past 20+ years. It takes an eternity to get good at SC without any guidance. I think most people asking for advice are past the curiosity stage where you just do random stuff for the heck of it and more into improving at the fastest rate possible stage. Personally, I don't have time to see if 30 goliath are better than 20 tanks. I would much prefer practicing mechanics, micro, macro, ect... | ||
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castleeMg
Canada786 Posts
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On September 12 2018 10:43 Luddite wrote: He did, and they're linked in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%. I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies. i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them. The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die". Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel. | ||
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
On September 13 2018 06:39 badpenny wrote: I have watched those Birdie videos, but only once, so thanks for bringing them to my attention again. There's a lot of good stuff in them. But when you watch the Jaedong video, it's clear that particular fingers on his left hand are assigned to particular keys/sets of keys in order to minimize hand movement. Even if you slow that video down to x.25 speed, that's not what (my) noob hands look like playing SC. I'm not aware of any tutorials/guides which focus on that aspect of the game, although I think they would be immensely helpful to a lot of people. Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?) As you can see, there are quite a few ways people do it: + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/90739-jaedongs-hand-placement http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/279650-hand-positioning-for-macro-and-micro http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/513082-macro-fingering-whats-yours http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/46909-1a2a3a4a5a6a-fingering http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/109698-protoss-finger-positioning I'm Terran so my SCVs are handily on S, and the "worst" (it's easy after a while) is I for irradiate, O for siege, P for patrol, L for lift (buildings) and 8/9/0 + S for scan. I guess that cross-race, if we talk about standard hotkeys and left hand = keyboard hand, from what I've seen streamers and progamers do when I paid attention, you want a standard-position that - on the left side of the keyboard (where 80-90% or so of shit happens) allows you to easily hit 1 with ring- or middle-finger, and shift/ctrl with pinky - on the right side of the keyboard allows your thumb to reach all the way to keys like 0 (zero), P, M For me, when my wrist is located on the edge of the table, the keyboard is positioned so that my relaxed fingers from pinky to index can lie on ASDF. That way the pinky can reach ctrl and ring can reach 1 easily... my thumb can go all the way to 0 by reaching the hand forward-right. I'd start with the way you 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as that is a very important skill to have... most people, I think, do it - with pinky for A or ring-finger for A (I think Flash does this) and - they go from 1 onwards up the numbers with ring- or middle-finger until they (have to) switch to index-finger, later even to thumb. So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go: 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a 4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5 As mentioned (and as you can see in the threads linked above), some people might do it very differently, e.g. actually fully lift their hand to reach 0 or P with their index-finger instead of thumb... or do the 1a2a3a4a5a without the pinky at all... but from what I've read over time, the above mentioned is quite standard. In that video I posted, JD seemed to not use 1 and 2 too much (even though he could for sure), maybe his main control-groups are on other numbers, and I guess that could be a workaround if 1a2a with ring/pinky is hard for someone... or he uses other control-groups than 1 and 2 for specific micro-situations where he needs to reach a key on the right of the keyboard... a lot is really up to building your own system around the basic tools that Birdie's or other tutorials explain. | ||
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Cheesefome
314 Posts
On September 13 2018 08:36 ajmbek wrote: i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them. The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die". Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel. Sounds like me lol I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game. | ||
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Jealous
10310 Posts
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?) This. This is the sort of stuff I mean when I said that maybe noobs don't understand how impractical certain types of advice is, or how some advice may even be the wrong "fit" for some noobs but not others. Regardless, as you showed, threads of this nature exist - people just need to use the search bar. It's 2018, your GoogleFu has to be strong! On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: I'd start with the way you 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as that is a very important skill toi have... Fixed. On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go: 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a 4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5 Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works. 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 Didn't even realize I did it this way lol. I remember responding to a thread on this subject in the past and I don't think I had the same answer. I think it changed because I have a different keyboard set-up now. | ||
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badpenny
Canada54 Posts
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
If at some point you wonder how you assign units or a building to 8/9/0 (I guess few can reach it with their thumb while pressing left-ctrl with pinky ^^): you can use thumb to press the right-ctrl-button and then the numbers with index or middle. Apart from that, until there will be this "one thread to teach them all": If you have tricky questions that seem hard to answer by searching for threads with the search-function (as there will be 50-90% useless answers for you in those), the best thing to do atm is to drop a question in the "Simple Questions Simple Answers"-Thread in the Strategy-Section. But all the threads above e.g. I found by searching for "fingers" or "hands" or "hand position" being mentioned in a thread title, and by limiting the search first to the BW strategy forum, then, if I don't find anything, BW General Forum. | ||
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gumballdead
United States22 Posts
I would love for there to be more people at the lower skill levels though because then I would play more. | ||
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Cheesefome
314 Posts
On September 13 2018 09:11 Jealous wrote: This. This is the sort of stuff I mean when I said that maybe noobs don't understand how impractical certain types of advice is, or how some advice may even be the wrong "fit" for some noobs but not others. Regardless, as you showed, threads of this nature exist - people just need to use the search bar. It's 2018, your GoogleFu has to be strong! Fixed. ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works. 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 Didn't even realize I did it this way lol. I remember responding to a thread on this subject in the past and I don't think I had the same answer. I think it changed because I have a different keyboard set-up now. ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Edit: Fixed Highgamer :D | ||
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
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Jealous
10310 Posts
On September 14 2018 07:00 Cheesefome wrote: ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works. Yes my hands are relatively small - about 18 cm (7 inches) from the tip of my middle finger to the base of the palm, 22 cm (9 inches) from top of the thumb to tip of the pinky with maximum extension. For this reason I always choose laptops and keyboards with small, clustered keys. This finger set up for 1a2a3a works well for me because I don't have to change fingers mid-process and my fingers are pretty flexible which allows my middle finger to go over the pinky pretty comfortably. I can still do things like 0s for scanning as Terran with relative ease. For reference, I use unedited hotkeys, I am max 2000 MMR with around 180-230 APM in the mid-late game so I don't think it holds me back. @Highgamer: Lol. | ||
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Cheesefome
314 Posts
On September 14 2018 07:46 Highgamer wrote: Be warned, Cheesefome: False citation and plagiarism at the same time is the pinnacle of harming the author's rights. + Show Spoiler + My accentuations. On September 14 2018 07:00 Cheesefome wrote: ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works. It's the way this forum works lol. Not sure why it works this way but when you quote someone, instead of taking you all the way to the bottom to make your comment, it starts the typing in the center of the paragraph of the person you're responding to. Makes no sense. I made my post, realized it was in the center, tried to edit, copy paste my reply at the bottom but i must have highlighted some of the paragraph I was replying to xD. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On September 13 2018 09:04 Cheesefome wrote: Sounds like me lol I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game. That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution. I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game. | ||
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elKa-ThE-FeArEd
Sweden177 Posts
On September 14 2018 08:20 Jealous wrote: Yes my hands are relatively small - about 18 cm (7 inches) from the tip of my middle finger to the base of the palm, 22 cm (9 inches) from top of the thumb to tip of the pinky with maximum extension. For this reason I always choose laptops and keyboards with small, clustered keys. This finger set up for 1a2a3a works well for me because I don't have to change fingers mid-process and my fingers are pretty flexible which allows my middle finger to go over the pinky pretty comfortably. I can still do things like 0s for scanning as Terran with relative ease. For reference, I use unedited hotkeys, I am max 2000 MMR with around 180-230 APM in the mid-late game so I don't think it holds me back. @Highgamer: Lol. 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index 1=thumb 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 I started playing when i was 10 years old (30 now) and i have small hands (about the same as jealous, roughly 18cm from middle finger to base So basically when i was at that age i had to do it that way and it has been stuck as that ever since, cant imagine doing it any other way | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1169 Posts
- If you don't analyze things yourself you won't get much better. - If you solely watch Vods and get your knowledge from there, you won't get much better. What newbies want: - More VODs with explanations! It's kinda paragraph 22 | ||
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mauwee
Vatican City State78 Posts
My YouTube channel is 100% F-ranked commentary. mostly you talkin bout how great Bisu.is!!! haha jk  | ||
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Cheesefome
314 Posts
On September 14 2018 20:57 ajmbek wrote: That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution. I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game. It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army. I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM. | ||
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